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Now that we have a new thread, in order to ensure that this thread continues to meet TL standards and follows the proper guidelines, we will be enforcing the rules in the OP more strictly. Be sure to give them a complete and thorough read before posting! NOTE: When providing a source, please provide a very brief summary on what it's about and what purpose it adds to the discussion. The supporting statement should clearly explain why the subject is relevant and needs to be discussed. Please follow this rule especially for tweets.
Your supporting statement should always come BEFORE you provide the source.If you have any questions, comments, concern, or feedback regarding the USPMT, then please use this thread: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/website-feedback/510156-us-politics-thread |
On April 21 2023 15:18 Mikau313 wrote:Show nested quote +On April 21 2023 09:56 BlackJack wrote:On April 21 2023 08:29 KwarK wrote:On April 21 2023 07:51 BlackJack wrote:On April 21 2023 07:47 Artisreal wrote:On April 20 2023 07:59 BlackJack wrote:On April 20 2023 01:37 Artisreal wrote:On April 19 2023 23:50 BlackJack wrote:
Drag story is a non-issue unless either tax dollars are going to fund it or it’s being foisted onto children without parents permission. I don’t know of either one of those happening. If there should be a societal duty to protect children from this then we should also protect children from being told they are going to hell if they don’t worship Jesus. Probably more likely to get molested by the latter camp also.
Anyway I think Sadist is quite right that Democrats suck at not getting into the weeds with Republicans on this. Part of the problem is that they are catering to the crowd that thinks “silence is violence.” So neutral non-answers won’t satisfy them and you need to show your support and denounce the bigots to be a real one. Unfortunately there are a lot of people that think children’s story hour shouldn’t be read by men wearing stripper heels and they don’t consider themselves bigots. parents are free to take their kids elsewhere. it's a free country, isn't it? if they dont like it, they can move out right? it's not happening every day at the same place, I suppose. Yeah, isn’t that basically what I said in my first paragraph? yes, but also no.
Drag story is a non-issue unless either tax dollars are going to fund it or it’s being foisted onto children without parents permission.
its absolutely fine if a person offering a reading to children gets remunerated. as far as i am aware there's no evidence of mental scarring through seeing a man dressed up as a woman and neither the other way around. hell yeah are you going to pay them and if its in a library chances are its tax money. Then it’s not a non-issue. Everyone can have input on how public funds are being spent. I don’t think that’s controversial. It’s not reasonable to expect to agree with every dollar of taxpayer money spent. Right, it’s reasonable to expect disagreement on how tax dollars are spent And if the outrage was about "is paying people to read to children in libraries the right thing to do" that would be a valid point. But that's not what all this has been about.
I can’t imagine why anyone would have a general opposition to using public funds for children’s story hour. It’s clear that the only oppose it because they think it’s inappropriate for children. There’s also endless other things that are deemed inappropriate for children that I’m sure they would also oppose if efforts to include it in children’s story hour existed
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On April 21 2023 17:44 BlackJack wrote:Show nested quote +On April 21 2023 15:18 Mikau313 wrote:On April 21 2023 09:56 BlackJack wrote:On April 21 2023 08:29 KwarK wrote:On April 21 2023 07:51 BlackJack wrote:On April 21 2023 07:47 Artisreal wrote:On April 20 2023 07:59 BlackJack wrote:On April 20 2023 01:37 Artisreal wrote:On April 19 2023 23:50 BlackJack wrote:
Drag story is a non-issue unless either tax dollars are going to fund it or it’s being foisted onto children without parents permission. I don’t know of either one of those happening. If there should be a societal duty to protect children from this then we should also protect children from being told they are going to hell if they don’t worship Jesus. Probably more likely to get molested by the latter camp also.
Anyway I think Sadist is quite right that Democrats suck at not getting into the weeds with Republicans on this. Part of the problem is that they are catering to the crowd that thinks “silence is violence.” So neutral non-answers won’t satisfy them and you need to show your support and denounce the bigots to be a real one. Unfortunately there are a lot of people that think children’s story hour shouldn’t be read by men wearing stripper heels and they don’t consider themselves bigots. parents are free to take their kids elsewhere. it's a free country, isn't it? if they dont like it, they can move out right? it's not happening every day at the same place, I suppose. Yeah, isn’t that basically what I said in my first paragraph? yes, but also no.
Drag story is a non-issue unless either tax dollars are going to fund it or it’s being foisted onto children without parents permission.
its absolutely fine if a person offering a reading to children gets remunerated. as far as i am aware there's no evidence of mental scarring through seeing a man dressed up as a woman and neither the other way around. hell yeah are you going to pay them and if its in a library chances are its tax money. Then it’s not a non-issue. Everyone can have input on how public funds are being spent. I don’t think that’s controversial. It’s not reasonable to expect to agree with every dollar of taxpayer money spent. Right, it’s reasonable to expect disagreement on how tax dollars are spent And if the outrage was about "is paying people to read to children in libraries the right thing to do" that would be a valid point. But that's not what all this has been about. I can’t imagine why anyone would have a general opposition to using public funds for children’s story hour. It’s clear that the only oppose it because they think it’s inappropriate for children. There’s also endless other things that are deemed inappropriate for children that I’m sure they would also oppose if efforts to include it in children’s story hour existed
People think religion is fucked.
Still churches can exist in this country.
Get used to not getting your way.
The feelings of parents being afraid of drag men doing something bad to their children by virtue of existing are just snowflake things.
They have no basis in reality but stem from the conditions they create for themselves. For the understanding of manhood that is so toxic and one dimensional.
It's a self inflicted misery. Society has no need nor right to suppress that but shall also be unaffected by it, inasmuch as it should not cater to those extremists.
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On April 21 2023 19:44 Artisreal wrote:Show nested quote +On April 21 2023 17:44 BlackJack wrote:On April 21 2023 15:18 Mikau313 wrote:On April 21 2023 09:56 BlackJack wrote:On April 21 2023 08:29 KwarK wrote:On April 21 2023 07:51 BlackJack wrote:On April 21 2023 07:47 Artisreal wrote:On April 20 2023 07:59 BlackJack wrote:On April 20 2023 01:37 Artisreal wrote:On April 19 2023 23:50 BlackJack wrote:
Drag story is a non-issue unless either tax dollars are going to fund it or it’s being foisted onto children without parents permission. I don’t know of either one of those happening. If there should be a societal duty to protect children from this then we should also protect children from being told they are going to hell if they don’t worship Jesus. Probably more likely to get molested by the latter camp also.
Anyway I think Sadist is quite right that Democrats suck at not getting into the weeds with Republicans on this. Part of the problem is that they are catering to the crowd that thinks “silence is violence.” So neutral non-answers won’t satisfy them and you need to show your support and denounce the bigots to be a real one. Unfortunately there are a lot of people that think children’s story hour shouldn’t be read by men wearing stripper heels and they don’t consider themselves bigots. parents are free to take their kids elsewhere. it's a free country, isn't it? if they dont like it, they can move out right? it's not happening every day at the same place, I suppose. Yeah, isn’t that basically what I said in my first paragraph? yes, but also no.
Drag story is a non-issue unless either tax dollars are going to fund it or it’s being foisted onto children without parents permission.
its absolutely fine if a person offering a reading to children gets remunerated. as far as i am aware there's no evidence of mental scarring through seeing a man dressed up as a woman and neither the other way around. hell yeah are you going to pay them and if its in a library chances are its tax money. Then it’s not a non-issue. Everyone can have input on how public funds are being spent. I don’t think that’s controversial. It’s not reasonable to expect to agree with every dollar of taxpayer money spent. Right, it’s reasonable to expect disagreement on how tax dollars are spent And if the outrage was about "is paying people to read to children in libraries the right thing to do" that would be a valid point. But that's not what all this has been about. I can’t imagine why anyone would have a general opposition to using public funds for children’s story hour. It’s clear that the only oppose it because they think it’s inappropriate for children. There’s also endless other things that are deemed inappropriate for children that I’m sure they would also oppose if efforts to include it in children’s story hour existed People think religion is fucked. Still churches can exist in this country. Get used to not getting your way. The feelings of parents being afraid of drag men doing something bad to their children by virtue of existing are just snowflake things. They have no basis in reality but stem from the conditions they create for themselves. For the understanding of manhood that is so toxic and one dimensional. It's a self inflicted misery. Society has no need nor right to suppress that but shall also be unaffected by it, inasmuch as it should not cater to those extremists.
People should also be allowed to object if any tax dollars are going to fund religious themed story hours for children, don’t you agree?
Also I suspect the bigger objection to drag queen story hour has less to do with fearing the drag queen will throw down the book and start fondling all the children and more to do with being against exposing small children to different ideas about gender. At least that would be my concern as someone that believes there’s a social contagion aspect to the explosion in the youth that identify as nonbinary, trans or gender fluid.
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On April 21 2023 21:06 BlackJack wrote:Show nested quote +On April 21 2023 19:44 Artisreal wrote:On April 21 2023 17:44 BlackJack wrote:On April 21 2023 15:18 Mikau313 wrote:On April 21 2023 09:56 BlackJack wrote:On April 21 2023 08:29 KwarK wrote:On April 21 2023 07:51 BlackJack wrote:On April 21 2023 07:47 Artisreal wrote:On April 20 2023 07:59 BlackJack wrote:On April 20 2023 01:37 Artisreal wrote:
[quote]
parents are free to take their kids elsewhere. it's a free country, isn't it?
if they dont like it, they can move out right?
it's not happening every day at the same place, I suppose. Yeah, isn’t that basically what I said in my first paragraph? yes, but also no.
Drag story is a non-issue unless either tax dollars are going to fund it or it’s being foisted onto children without parents permission.
its absolutely fine if a person offering a reading to children gets remunerated. as far as i am aware there's no evidence of mental scarring through seeing a man dressed up as a woman and neither the other way around. hell yeah are you going to pay them and if its in a library chances are its tax money. Then it’s not a non-issue. Everyone can have input on how public funds are being spent. I don’t think that’s controversial. It’s not reasonable to expect to agree with every dollar of taxpayer money spent. Right, it’s reasonable to expect disagreement on how tax dollars are spent And if the outrage was about "is paying people to read to children in libraries the right thing to do" that would be a valid point. But that's not what all this has been about. I can’t imagine why anyone would have a general opposition to using public funds for children’s story hour. It’s clear that the only oppose it because they think it’s inappropriate for children. There’s also endless other things that are deemed inappropriate for children that I’m sure they would also oppose if efforts to include it in children’s story hour existed People think religion is fucked. Still churches can exist in this country. Get used to not getting your way. The feelings of parents being afraid of drag men doing something bad to their children by virtue of existing are just snowflake things. They have no basis in reality but stem from the conditions they create for themselves. For the understanding of manhood that is so toxic and one dimensional. It's a self inflicted misery. Society has no need nor right to suppress that but shall also be unaffected by it, inasmuch as it should not cater to those extremists. People should also be allowed to object if any tax dollars are going to fund religious themed story hours for children, don’t you agree? Also I suspect the bigger objection to drag queen story hour has less to do with fearing the drag queen will throw down the book and start fondling all the children and more to do with being against exposing small children to different ideas about gender. At least that would be my concern as someone that believes there’s a social contagion aspect to the explosion in the youth that identify as nonbinary, trans or gender fluid.
What about taxes indirectly funding religious stuff? Like for example by churches being exempt from taxes, while everyone else has to pay?
And yeah, obviously. We know that conservatives hate it when children get exposed to ideas outside of their brainwashing factory.
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On April 21 2023 21:29 Simberto wrote:Show nested quote +On April 21 2023 21:06 BlackJack wrote:On April 21 2023 19:44 Artisreal wrote:On April 21 2023 17:44 BlackJack wrote:On April 21 2023 15:18 Mikau313 wrote:On April 21 2023 09:56 BlackJack wrote:On April 21 2023 08:29 KwarK wrote:On April 21 2023 07:51 BlackJack wrote:On April 21 2023 07:47 Artisreal wrote:On April 20 2023 07:59 BlackJack wrote:
[quote]
Yeah, isn’t that basically what I said in my first paragraph?
yes, but also no.
Drag story is a non-issue unless either tax dollars are going to fund it or it’s being foisted onto children without parents permission.
its absolutely fine if a person offering a reading to children gets remunerated. as far as i am aware there's no evidence of mental scarring through seeing a man dressed up as a woman and neither the other way around. hell yeah are you going to pay them and if its in a library chances are its tax money. Then it’s not a non-issue. Everyone can have input on how public funds are being spent. I don’t think that’s controversial. It’s not reasonable to expect to agree with every dollar of taxpayer money spent. Right, it’s reasonable to expect disagreement on how tax dollars are spent And if the outrage was about "is paying people to read to children in libraries the right thing to do" that would be a valid point. But that's not what all this has been about. I can’t imagine why anyone would have a general opposition to using public funds for children’s story hour. It’s clear that the only oppose it because they think it’s inappropriate for children. There’s also endless other things that are deemed inappropriate for children that I’m sure they would also oppose if efforts to include it in children’s story hour existed People think religion is fucked. Still churches can exist in this country. Get used to not getting your way. The feelings of parents being afraid of drag men doing something bad to their children by virtue of existing are just snowflake things. They have no basis in reality but stem from the conditions they create for themselves. For the understanding of manhood that is so toxic and one dimensional. It's a self inflicted misery. Society has no need nor right to suppress that but shall also be unaffected by it, inasmuch as it should not cater to those extremists. People should also be allowed to object if any tax dollars are going to fund religious themed story hours for children, don’t you agree? Also I suspect the bigger objection to drag queen story hour has less to do with fearing the drag queen will throw down the book and start fondling all the children and more to do with being against exposing small children to different ideas about gender. At least that would be my concern as someone that believes there’s a social contagion aspect to the explosion in the youth that identify as nonbinary, trans or gender fluid. What about taxes indirectly funding religious stuff? Like for example by churches being exempt from taxes, while everyone else has to pay? And yeah, obviously. We know that conservatives hate it when children get exposed to ideas outside of their brainwashing factory.
Churches being tax exempt also falls firmly outside of the realm of “live and let live” and inside the realm of public policy that should be argued over.
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I think that for most people who dislike this, it's not the gender fluidity that is the issue (even if conservatives are worried about that too). I think it is rather a feeling that you shouldn't unnecessarily expose young kids to overt expressions of sexuality in general. To me, drag is a sexual fetish. It's fundamentally not the same thing as a man dressing up as a woman, or a transgender person wearing clothes typically used by the opposite sex. Drag is sexualized; it involves overtly sexualized clothes and it is historically related to the expression of sexual identites (as far as I know). I mean most people would feel uncomfortable around a kindergarten teacher in stripper's heels and deep cleavage...
I would similarly dislike it if it was branded as "Homosexuals reading children's stories" or "Polygamous Mormons story hour" or "Strippers story hour" or "Prostitute story hour". I don't think public funding should go to any of those.
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On April 21 2023 22:23 Elroi wrote:
I think that for most people who dislike this, it's not the gender fluidity that is the issue (even if conservatives are worried about that too). I think it is rather a feeling that you shouldn't unnecessarily expose young kids to overt expressions of sexuality in general. To me, drag is a sexual fetish. It's fundamentally not the same thing as a man dressing up as a woman, or a transgender person wearing clothes typically used by the opposite sex. Drag is sexualized; it involves overtly sexualized clothes and it is historically related to the expression of sexual identites (as far as I know). I mean most people would feel uncomfortable around a kindergarten teacher in stripper's heels and deep cleavage...
I would similarly dislike it if it was branded as "Homosexuals reading children's stories" or "Polygamous Mormons story hour" or "Strippers story hour" or "Prostitute story hour". I don't think public funding should go to any of those.
I mean, I don't know what to tell you other than your premise is wrong, your conclusions are wrong, and your comparisons are bad. We posted a whole bunch of explanation to the contrary, did you just not read it?
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On April 21 2023 13:25 Simberto wrote:Show nested quote +On April 21 2023 11:15 Kyadytim wrote:In an entirely predictable abandonment of prior principles, the anti-abortion movement has completed its journey from "Roe v. Wade is bad because it should have been left up to the states," through "Dobbs is good because it puts the decision back in the hands of the states," and has finally arrived at "Not supporting a federal abortion ban is morally indefensible." “President Trump’s assertion that the Supreme Court returned the issue of abortion solely to the states is a completely inaccurate reading of the Dobbs decision and is a morally indefensible position for a self-proclaimed pro-life presidential candidate to hold. Life is a matter of human rights, not states’ rights. Saying that the issue should only be decided at the states is an endorsement of abortion up until the moment of birth, even brutal late-term abortions in states like California, Illinois, New York and New Jersey. The only way to save these children is through federal protections, such as a 15-week federal minimum standard when the unborn child can feel excruciating pain.
“We will oppose any presidential candidate who refuses to embrace at a minimum a 15-week national standard to stop painful late-term abortions while allowing states to enact further protections. Susan B Anthony listAnyone else expecting that it won't stop here and will rapidly reach only a 6-week ban or total ban is a morally acceptable position? I will never bet against the insanity or complete lack of any guiding principles of american conservatives. It has been very clear that all of their arguments and reasons are bad-faith smokescreens that they couldn't care less about, and where they are absolutely willing to take a complete 180 on if it benefits them. So yeah, i absolutey expect that, too. That being said, your source is a 403 forbidden for me.
Heh. That will teach me to go find primary sources. Anyway, here's the Associated Press reporting on it:
apnews.com
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On April 21 2023 21:06 BlackJack wrote:Show nested quote +On April 21 2023 19:44 Artisreal wrote:On April 21 2023 17:44 BlackJack wrote:On April 21 2023 15:18 Mikau313 wrote:On April 21 2023 09:56 BlackJack wrote:On April 21 2023 08:29 KwarK wrote:On April 21 2023 07:51 BlackJack wrote:On April 21 2023 07:47 Artisreal wrote:On April 20 2023 07:59 BlackJack wrote:On April 20 2023 01:37 Artisreal wrote:
[quote]
parents are free to take their kids elsewhere. it's a free country, isn't it?
if they dont like it, they can move out right?
it's not happening every day at the same place, I suppose. Yeah, isn’t that basically what I said in my first paragraph? yes, but also no.
Drag story is a non-issue unless either tax dollars are going to fund it or it’s being foisted onto children without parents permission.
its absolutely fine if a person offering a reading to children gets remunerated. as far as i am aware there's no evidence of mental scarring through seeing a man dressed up as a woman and neither the other way around. hell yeah are you going to pay them and if its in a library chances are its tax money. Then it’s not a non-issue. Everyone can have input on how public funds are being spent. I don’t think that’s controversial. It’s not reasonable to expect to agree with every dollar of taxpayer money spent. Right, it’s reasonable to expect disagreement on how tax dollars are spent And if the outrage was about "is paying people to read to children in libraries the right thing to do" that would be a valid point. But that's not what all this has been about. I can’t imagine why anyone would have a general opposition to using public funds for children’s story hour. It’s clear that the only oppose it because they think it’s inappropriate for children. There’s also endless other things that are deemed inappropriate for children that I’m sure they would also oppose if efforts to include it in children’s story hour existed People think religion is fucked. Still churches can exist in this country. Get used to not getting your way. The feelings of parents being afraid of drag men doing something bad to their children by virtue of existing are just snowflake things. They have no basis in reality but stem from the conditions they create for themselves. For the understanding of manhood that is so toxic and one dimensional. It's a self inflicted misery. Society has no need nor right to suppress that but shall also be unaffected by it, inasmuch as it should not cater to those extremists. People should also be allowed to object if any tax dollars are going to fund religious themed story hours for children, don’t you agree? Also I suspect the bigger objection to drag queen story hour has less to do with fearing the drag queen will throw down the book and start fondling all the children and more to do with being against exposing small children to different ideas about gender. At least that would be my concern as someone that believes there’s a social contagion aspect to the explosion in the youth that identify as nonbinary, trans or gender fluid.
As a worthless anecdote, my mother (in her sixties, christian) recently learned that trans does not mean exclusively that your bits are wrong, and subsequently that she is trans and was trans her whole life. Her identifying trans makes sense, and given that she's 60 I think her having learned that when she was 10 would have been just as harmful as it would be helpful, but society has moved and will keep moving.
I think youth are just quicker on the uptake; I think a lot of us experience some level of gender fluidity, but were taught more rigid lines to gender expression. I'm willing to believe there's SOME level of fad or trendiness to it, but not that it's a major contributing factor.
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On April 21 2023 22:08 BlackJack wrote:Show nested quote +On April 21 2023 21:29 Simberto wrote:On April 21 2023 21:06 BlackJack wrote:On April 21 2023 19:44 Artisreal wrote:On April 21 2023 17:44 BlackJack wrote:On April 21 2023 15:18 Mikau313 wrote:On April 21 2023 09:56 BlackJack wrote:On April 21 2023 08:29 KwarK wrote:On April 21 2023 07:51 BlackJack wrote:On April 21 2023 07:47 Artisreal wrote:
[quote]
yes, but also no.
[quote]
its absolutely fine if a person offering a reading to children gets remunerated.
as far as i am aware there's no evidence of mental scarring through seeing a man dressed up as a woman and neither the other way around.
hell yeah are you going to pay them and if its in a library chances are its tax money. Then it’s not a non-issue. Everyone can have input on how public funds are being spent. I don’t think that’s controversial. It’s not reasonable to expect to agree with every dollar of taxpayer money spent. Right, it’s reasonable to expect disagreement on how tax dollars are spent And if the outrage was about "is paying people to read to children in libraries the right thing to do" that would be a valid point. But that's not what all this has been about. I can’t imagine why anyone would have a general opposition to using public funds for children’s story hour. It’s clear that the only oppose it because they think it’s inappropriate for children. There’s also endless other things that are deemed inappropriate for children that I’m sure they would also oppose if efforts to include it in children’s story hour existed People think religion is fucked. Still churches can exist in this country. Get used to not getting your way. The feelings of parents being afraid of drag men doing something bad to their children by virtue of existing are just snowflake things. They have no basis in reality but stem from the conditions they create for themselves. For the understanding of manhood that is so toxic and one dimensional. It's a self inflicted misery. Society has no need nor right to suppress that but shall also be unaffected by it, inasmuch as it should not cater to those extremists. People should also be allowed to object if any tax dollars are going to fund religious themed story hours for children, don’t you agree? Also I suspect the bigger objection to drag queen story hour has less to do with fearing the drag queen will throw down the book and start fondling all the children and more to do with being against exposing small children to different ideas about gender. At least that would be my concern as someone that believes there’s a social contagion aspect to the explosion in the youth that identify as nonbinary, trans or gender fluid. What about taxes indirectly funding religious stuff? Like for example by churches being exempt from taxes, while everyone else has to pay? And yeah, obviously. We know that conservatives hate it when children get exposed to ideas outside of their brainwashing factory. Churches being tax exempt also falls firmly outside of the realm of “live and let live” and inside the realm of public policy that should be argued over.
Why? Being exempt from taxes is basically the same as being subsidized with tax money. The church not paying tax money could equally be modelled as the tax getting a money gift from the state of the value of the tax they should be paying.
Tax breaks are a hidden kind of subsidies. So we already have taxes funding religious story hours for children. What else is sunday school? Men in dresses reading fantasy stories to children.
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If this was really about protecting kids from being sexualized or from sexual content they would have gone after the Child pageant scene and the 250k girls that are involved in it every year.
But its not about sexual content they just want to attack LGBT people.
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Perhaps, I don't know anything about the pageants you're talking about. We don't have them in Sweden (but we have imported the Drag queen story hours).
You're probably right, but your argument can also be turned around: no one on the left would promote regular women in overtly sexual outfits take care of children, it's only promoted in this case because it annoys conservatives.
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Norway28665 Posts
On April 22 2023 07:40 Elroi wrote:
Perhaps, I don't know anything about the pageants you're talking about. We don't have them in Sweden (but we have imported the Drag queen story hours).
You're probably right, but your argument can also be turned around: no one on the left would promote regular women in overtly sexual outfits take care of children, it's only promoted in this case because it annoys conservatives.
You should look at the YouTube I linked. They aren't using overtly sexual outfits, but very normal female clothing. They are aware of their audience and act in accordance with that.
I mean I'm sure you can find an example of some drag story time host somewhere af some point in time who didn't but I'm confident that is very far from the norm.
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On April 22 2023 04:59 Simberto wrote:Show nested quote +On April 21 2023 22:08 BlackJack wrote:On April 21 2023 21:29 Simberto wrote:On April 21 2023 21:06 BlackJack wrote:On April 21 2023 19:44 Artisreal wrote:On April 21 2023 17:44 BlackJack wrote:On April 21 2023 15:18 Mikau313 wrote:On April 21 2023 09:56 BlackJack wrote:On April 21 2023 08:29 KwarK wrote:On April 21 2023 07:51 BlackJack wrote:
[quote]
Then it’s not a non-issue. Everyone can have input on how public funds are being spent. I don’t think that’s controversial.
It’s not reasonable to expect to agree with every dollar of taxpayer money spent. Right, it’s reasonable to expect disagreement on how tax dollars are spent And if the outrage was about "is paying people to read to children in libraries the right thing to do" that would be a valid point. But that's not what all this has been about. I can’t imagine why anyone would have a general opposition to using public funds for children’s story hour. It’s clear that the only oppose it because they think it’s inappropriate for children. There’s also endless other things that are deemed inappropriate for children that I’m sure they would also oppose if efforts to include it in children’s story hour existed People think religion is fucked. Still churches can exist in this country. Get used to not getting your way. The feelings of parents being afraid of drag men doing something bad to their children by virtue of existing are just snowflake things. They have no basis in reality but stem from the conditions they create for themselves. For the understanding of manhood that is so toxic and one dimensional. It's a self inflicted misery. Society has no need nor right to suppress that but shall also be unaffected by it, inasmuch as it should not cater to those extremists. People should also be allowed to object if any tax dollars are going to fund religious themed story hours for children, don’t you agree? Also I suspect the bigger objection to drag queen story hour has less to do with fearing the drag queen will throw down the book and start fondling all the children and more to do with being against exposing small children to different ideas about gender. At least that would be my concern as someone that believes there’s a social contagion aspect to the explosion in the youth that identify as nonbinary, trans or gender fluid. What about taxes indirectly funding religious stuff? Like for example by churches being exempt from taxes, while everyone else has to pay? And yeah, obviously. We know that conservatives hate it when children get exposed to ideas outside of their brainwashing factory. Churches being tax exempt also falls firmly outside of the realm of “live and let live” and inside the realm of public policy that should be argued over. Why? Being exempt from taxes is basically the same as being subsidized with tax money. The church not paying tax money could equally be modelled as the tax getting a money gift from the state of the value of the tax they should be paying. Tax breaks are a hidden kind of subsidies. So we already have taxes funding religious story hours for children. What else is sunday school? Men in dresses reading fantasy stories to children.
What do you mean “Why?”? Churches getting essentially billions in tax subsidies is something that affects me as a taxpayer. Why would this not be a public policy matter that should be debated? Or is your argument essentially we already subsidize men in dresses reading to children so why not more of that? I guess my counter would be why not none of that.
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On April 21 2023 22:23 Elroi wrote:
I think that for most people who dislike this, it's not the gender fluidity that is the issue (even if conservatives are worried about that too). I think it is rather a feeling that you shouldn't unnecessarily expose young kids to overt expressions of sexuality in general.
Overt expressions of heterosexuality are normal and expected in children's media. Many Disney classics revolve around heterosexuality and the climax or payoff is requited heterosexual love. If you're shocked by the expression of sexual identities, you're gonna have a bad time.
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On April 22 2023 08:46 BlackJack wrote:Show nested quote +On April 22 2023 04:59 Simberto wrote:On April 21 2023 22:08 BlackJack wrote:On April 21 2023 21:29 Simberto wrote:On April 21 2023 21:06 BlackJack wrote:On April 21 2023 19:44 Artisreal wrote:On April 21 2023 17:44 BlackJack wrote:On April 21 2023 15:18 Mikau313 wrote:On April 21 2023 09:56 BlackJack wrote:On April 21 2023 08:29 KwarK wrote:
[quote]
It’s not reasonable to expect to agree with every dollar of taxpayer money spent. Right, it’s reasonable to expect disagreement on how tax dollars are spent And if the outrage was about "is paying people to read to children in libraries the right thing to do" that would be a valid point. But that's not what all this has been about. I can’t imagine why anyone would have a general opposition to using public funds for children’s story hour. It’s clear that the only oppose it because they think it’s inappropriate for children. There’s also endless other things that are deemed inappropriate for children that I’m sure they would also oppose if efforts to include it in children’s story hour existed People think religion is fucked. Still churches can exist in this country. Get used to not getting your way. The feelings of parents being afraid of drag men doing something bad to their children by virtue of existing are just snowflake things. They have no basis in reality but stem from the conditions they create for themselves. For the understanding of manhood that is so toxic and one dimensional. It's a self inflicted misery. Society has no need nor right to suppress that but shall also be unaffected by it, inasmuch as it should not cater to those extremists. People should also be allowed to object if any tax dollars are going to fund religious themed story hours for children, don’t you agree? Also I suspect the bigger objection to drag queen story hour has less to do with fearing the drag queen will throw down the book and start fondling all the children and more to do with being against exposing small children to different ideas about gender. At least that would be my concern as someone that believes there’s a social contagion aspect to the explosion in the youth that identify as nonbinary, trans or gender fluid. What about taxes indirectly funding religious stuff? Like for example by churches being exempt from taxes, while everyone else has to pay? And yeah, obviously. We know that conservatives hate it when children get exposed to ideas outside of their brainwashing factory. Churches being tax exempt also falls firmly outside of the realm of “live and let live” and inside the realm of public policy that should be argued over. Why? Being exempt from taxes is basically the same as being subsidized with tax money. The church not paying tax money could equally be modelled as the tax getting a money gift from the state of the value of the tax they should be paying. Tax breaks are a hidden kind of subsidies. So we already have taxes funding religious story hours for children. What else is sunday school? Men in dresses reading fantasy stories to children. What do you mean “Why?”? Churches getting essentially billions in tax subsidies is something that affects me as a taxpayer. Why would this not be a public policy matter that should be debated? Or is your argument essentially we already subsidize men in dresses reading to children so why not more of that? I guess my counter would be why not none of that.
I guess i got a bit confused and confusing in this discussion.
My core points are:
-Rightwing people are apparently very okay with using tax money to subsidize men in dresses telling stories to children.
-As long as it is their men in dresses. When it is drag story hour, it is apparently completely horrific and unacceptable.
-They should pick a fucking consistent position on that.
-But afaik drag story time is rarely even paid for with tax dollars, so that shouldn't be a problem anyways?
And that is my attempt at finding the most coherent version of their argument. If it is not about what tax dollars pay for, and instead about not accepting men in dresses to read to children, when the parents of those children actively choose that event, then that argument is so insanely stupid that i don't even know how to interact with that. And even more inconsistent with their general ideology of "Parents should be able to make all the decisions for their children"
As a sidepoint to the previous argument, I personally am against paying for churches with tax dollars (or exempting them from taxes). Because why should we fund irrational brainwashing facilities?
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On April 22 2023 17:52 Simberto wrote:Show nested quote +On April 22 2023 08:46 BlackJack wrote:On April 22 2023 04:59 Simberto wrote:On April 21 2023 22:08 BlackJack wrote:On April 21 2023 21:29 Simberto wrote:On April 21 2023 21:06 BlackJack wrote:On April 21 2023 19:44 Artisreal wrote:On April 21 2023 17:44 BlackJack wrote:On April 21 2023 15:18 Mikau313 wrote:On April 21 2023 09:56 BlackJack wrote:
[quote]
Right, it’s reasonable to expect disagreement on how tax dollars are spent
And if the outrage was about "is paying people to read to children in libraries the right thing to do" that would be a valid point. But that's not what all this has been about. I can’t imagine why anyone would have a general opposition to using public funds for children’s story hour. It’s clear that the only oppose it because they think it’s inappropriate for children. There’s also endless other things that are deemed inappropriate for children that I’m sure they would also oppose if efforts to include it in children’s story hour existed People think religion is fucked. Still churches can exist in this country. Get used to not getting your way. The feelings of parents being afraid of drag men doing something bad to their children by virtue of existing are just snowflake things. They have no basis in reality but stem from the conditions they create for themselves. For the understanding of manhood that is so toxic and one dimensional. It's a self inflicted misery. Society has no need nor right to suppress that but shall also be unaffected by it, inasmuch as it should not cater to those extremists. People should also be allowed to object if any tax dollars are going to fund religious themed story hours for children, don’t you agree? Also I suspect the bigger objection to drag queen story hour has less to do with fearing the drag queen will throw down the book and start fondling all the children and more to do with being against exposing small children to different ideas about gender. At least that would be my concern as someone that believes there’s a social contagion aspect to the explosion in the youth that identify as nonbinary, trans or gender fluid. What about taxes indirectly funding religious stuff? Like for example by churches being exempt from taxes, while everyone else has to pay? And yeah, obviously. We know that conservatives hate it when children get exposed to ideas outside of their brainwashing factory. Churches being tax exempt also falls firmly outside of the realm of “live and let live” and inside the realm of public policy that should be argued over. Why? Being exempt from taxes is basically the same as being subsidized with tax money. The church not paying tax money could equally be modelled as the tax getting a money gift from the state of the value of the tax they should be paying. Tax breaks are a hidden kind of subsidies. So we already have taxes funding religious story hours for children. What else is sunday school? Men in dresses reading fantasy stories to children. What do you mean “Why?”? Churches getting essentially billions in tax subsidies is something that affects me as a taxpayer. Why would this not be a public policy matter that should be debated? Or is your argument essentially we already subsidize men in dresses reading to children so why not more of that? I guess my counter would be why not none of that. I guess i got a bit confused and confusing in this discussion. My core points are: -Rightwing people are apparently very okay with using tax money to subsidize men in dresses telling stories to children. -As long as it is their men in dresses. When it is drag story hour, it is apparently completely horrific and unacceptable. -They should pick a fucking consistent position on that. -But afaik drag story time is rarely even paid for with tax dollars, so that shouldn't be a problem anyways? And that is my attempt at finding the most coherent version of their argument. If it is not about what tax dollars pay for, and instead about not accepting men in dresses to read to children, when the parents of those children actively choose that event, then that argument is so insanely stupid that i don't even know how to interact with that. And even more inconsistent with their general ideology of "Parents should be able to make all the decisions for their children" As a sidepoint to the previous argument, I personally am against paying for churches with tax dollars (or exempting them from taxes). Because why should we fund irrational brainwashing facilities?
I think this a pretty loose connection to call it an inconsistency for supporting tax policy that benefits Sunday school teachings and not drag Queen story hour. But if I grant you there is an inconsistency for supporting one and not the other then aren’t you in turn admitting your own inconsistency by saying you aren’t in favor of benefiting the churches with tax policy unless you also agree our tax dollars shouldn’t go to support drag Queen story hours either? I think there’s also plenty of people on the left on team “Tax the church” and team drag Queen story hours are fantastic and should be government funded.
I think your 2nd argument of conservatives being the side of parents should decide what’s best for their children while trying to ban parents from taking their kids to drag Queen story hour is a good one.
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EPT
