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On April 19 2023 04:40 KwarK wrote:
Nah, if we give in to the outrage engine this time then it’ll turn itself off because it’s a reasonable engine with reasonable concerns and not a juggernaut fueled by a cycle of constant moral panic that sustains itself by creating new problems.
I mean at some point by fighting them on every little thing it lets them set the agenda.
Republican policies are not popular. Fight them on their bullshit policies 24/7 (they want you to pay more for healthcare, insurance companies are the real death panels, forced birth on women, especially rape victims and children, they dont care about pollution or climate change and want your children and grand children to inherit a dystopian hellscape).
Its easy to sell the public the above. Getting into the weeds on drag story time and trans issues helps no one. A generic "we support the rights of individuals" and passing laws to protect them quietly is the way to go. Hammer them on the other stuff. Democrats need to do better at setting the agenda.
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Norway28665 Posts
On April 19 2023 04:46 Mohdoo wrote:Show nested quote +On April 19 2023 04:21 GreenHorizons wrote:
@Mohdoo Have you considered that caving on stuff like letting Republicans pull funding from schools and libraries that allow drag story times is falling into a behavior trap? No, I think we can use more nuance than "any time you abandon a shitty idea, the enemy wins". I don't see AOC blabbing about Latinx anymore, for example. I'd also like to point out that I view this as democrats falling into a behavioral trap by defending anything vaguely associated with LGBTQ rights. I think people are letting their knee jerk instinct to oppose anything Cletus opposes send them down a silly, ineffective path. People are being tricked into thinking this is some kinda "front lines" issue.
Isn't the latinx a bad parallel to make because as you yourself explained before, it just doesn't make sense?
I think a good parallel to make, which someone did, is gay rights 25 years ago. Granted, that affected way, way more people than this - but that's one where you're dealing with a similar principle: Is it wise to hold a losing political position just because it's the right thing to do, or does that simply make you lose elections meaning you're unable to do stuff that's even more important?
I mean, say, retrospectively and hypothetically that Gore vs Bush boiled down to whether Gore supports gay rights or not. If he supports it, republicans win and we get the war against Iraq and inaction on climate change, if Gore says screw the gays, he wins, possibly no war in Iraq and action against climate change. What's the right thing to do in that case?
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On April 19 2023 04:46 Mohdoo wrote:Show nested quote +On April 19 2023 04:21 GreenHorizons wrote:
@Mohdoo Have you considered that caving on stuff like letting Republicans pull funding from schools and libraries that allow drag story times is falling into a behavior trap? No, I think we can use more nuance than "any time you abandon a shitty idea, the enemy wins". I don't see AOC blabbing about Latinx anymore, for example. I'd also like to point out that I view this as democrats falling into a behavioral trap by defending anything vaguely associated with LGBTQ rights. I think people are letting their knee jerk instinct to support anything Cletus opposes send them down a silly, ineffective path. People are being tricked into thinking this is some kinda "front lines" issue.
"Latinx" was never part of any legislation afaik, you need a better example.
It is indeed a trap, but one which is tried passed into a bullshit law which threatens basic liberties about what to wear.
If you write a poll about "do you like BDSM", it might not come out with a majority in favour, but that does not mean it should be prohibited for people who enjoy it. Many (white) parents do not want their kids to play American Football because of the risk of injuries, but that does not mean there should be laws against it.
Everything would be so much easier if we could just let people live their lives the way they want. If you dont like it, just stay away and leave them alone.
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On April 19 2023 04:46 Mohdoo wrote:Show nested quote +On April 19 2023 04:21 GreenHorizons wrote:
@Mohdoo Have you considered that caving on stuff like letting Republicans pull funding from schools and libraries that allow drag story times is falling into a behavior trap? No, I think we can use more nuance than "any time you abandon a shitty idea, the enemy wins". I don't see AOC blabbing about Latinx anymore, for example. I'd also like to point out that I view this as democrats falling into a behavioral trap by defending anything vaguely associated with LGBTQ rights. I think people are letting their knee jerk instinct to support anything Cletus opposes send them down a silly, ineffective path. People are being tricked into thinking this is some kinda "front lines" issue.
You could stand to back up a bit if you think being "not anti-drag story time" (for lack of a better tag) is a "shitty idea" and a knee-jerk response to Republicans. Maybe it's possible that Republicans are inventing a problem out of thin air and driving outrage over something that's really stupid to be angry about, and I can have a response to that? They're trying to come after the right for people to do something they want to do, and the rationale for it is non-existent. I hardly find opposing that to be a shitty idea.
In this case, we literally have domestic terrorists trying to ban people reading to children in libraries by threat, intimidation and force. You think it's worth giving them what they want.
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On April 19 2023 02:08 Mohdoo wrote:Show nested quote +On April 19 2023 01:44 ChristianS wrote:
The value in defending them is because it’s right. Or more specifically, because Democrats want to promote a social message of “different people are doing different things you might find weird, but that’s okay and shouldn’t be illegal,” and betraying that isn’t going to be a political advantage. Making the fearmongering bipartisan while betraying the principled position will hurt, not help.
At the end of the day, all it comes down to is “if you don’t think this is appropriate for children, don’t take your children to it.” Which is a much easier-to-defend position than “this is weird so the government should send men with guns to stop it.” The right wing isn’t winning with this culture war bullshit, there’s really no reason for even a craven, opportunist politician to retreat. This is just patting yourself on the back rather than thinking about the impact it actually has. You lunge towards "doing the right thing" rather than wondering what the best way to help LGBTQ people really is. This perspective you have described ignores the 2 most important things 1) How much does this help the people I am trying to help? 2) How much does this help the people I am fighting against? This is a fight. It is not tea time in an ivory tower. We are not served by trying to conduct a dialectic and determine if drag story time is ethical or not. You should focus on what will prevent the spread of bigotry and keep LGBTQ people safe. Trans folks are in an absolutely dreadful situation right now and this ridiculous story time stuff is making it worse.
I don’t think any of the LGBTQ people I know would say what they want from the Democratic Party is for them to say “The Republicans are right, actually, drag is a menace to society and must be stopped.” You’re right, it’s a fight, specifically a fight to control the narrative. One side’s narrative is “LGBTQ people (and generally anyone being weird) are a menace to society and must be stopped,” and the other side’s narrative is “they’re just trying to scapegoat a harmless minority group. Let other people do what they want even if you think it’s weird, they’re not hurting you.”
It’s not ivory tower to say that reinforcing the other side’s narrative here is counterproductive. The principle and the politics align here, you’re pulling the lever in a trolley problem where there are more people tied to the track you’re switching to. Let people think the Republicans are weirdos obsessed with other people’s genitals, and the Democrats are fucking normal and just want to leave everybody alone for once.
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United States42656 Posts
British example but let’s say the Daily Mail ran a headline with
Nanny state snowflakes take Christmas panto from kids
the British right wing would be up in arms about how dare these moralizing government bureaucrats try to rob our children of the joy in seeing minor male celebrities dress up as women and reenact Jack & the beanstalk every Christmas.
They would be outraged at how sensitive everyone is these days and how we have to tiptoe around peoples’ feelings instead of enjoying some good traditional fun. They’d also probably be mad at the EU and maybe foreigners because this is the Daily Mail.
The point is that there are just as many socially conservative arguments to be made in favour of a given thing than against. Banning things can always be painted as nanny state, banning things to avoid causing offence can always be painted as butthurt triggered whiners, banning things that are fun and previously done can always be painted as fun police destroying tradition.
The game is rigged. Don’t play.
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I look at drag queen story hour the same as I would if it was furry story hour. Both communities get told that its just a sexual fetish but if you talk to any of them and actually experience part of the culture you know its not true.
Drag Queens are just getting hit rn by the conservative outrage engine because they need some culture war target and can just connect them with lgbt people easily.
The whole intent is to get democrats to start agreeing to more and more anti free speech carveouts against lgbt people. They want to shut down drag bars which just happen to be gay bars. In Florida they want it to be acceptable to kill people for doing drag queen story hour.
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800 million dollar admission of guilt to lying about election tampering to the entire country.
Sad we won't get Tucker Carlson and Hannity standing trial but at least they can never spin this shit again now.
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This isn't over. Dominion still has casess against Newsmax, OAN, Guliani, Powell, and Lindell. On top of that, Fox News is till being sued by Smartmatic.
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On April 19 2023 08:12 FueledUpAndReadyToGo wrote:800 million dollar admission of guilt to lying about election tampering to the entire country. Sad we won't get Tucker Carlson and Hannity standing trial but at least they can never spin this shit again now.
Doesn't kill Fox though.
They made 14b in revenue, 1.2b in profit last year. This wipes out ~8 months of profit, but doesn't really kill them. There's still the Smartmatic trial which is seeking 2.7b in damages which needs to happen.
They might need to take on some debt to cover this lawsuit and the Smartmatic one - given how much dirty laundry there was anticipated to be for the Fox News trial, odds are high that the Smartmatic one will settle for a good fraction of the damages.
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On April 19 2023 07:21 Sermokala wrote:
I look at drag queen story hour the same as I would if it was furry story hour. Both communities get told that its just a sexual fetish but if you talk to any of them and actually experience part of the culture you know its not true.
Drag Queens are just getting hit rn by the conservative outrage engine because they need some culture war target and can just connect them with lgbt people easily.
The whole intent is to get democrats to start agreeing to more and more anti free speech carveouts against lgbt people. They want to shut down drag bars which just happen to be gay bars. In Florida they want it to be acceptable to kill people for doing drag queen story hour.
I have 2 issues with this.
1: This logic does not allow for something that really is stupid and should just be abandoned. It assumes that all things Cletus is against, we must support if it has anything to do with LGBTQ stuff.
2: Pretending the sexual component of drag is something people should all agree is 0, and anyone saying otherwise should just be ignored, means ignoring a LOT of people. A senselessly large amount.
TBH, I would have expected the Klobuchar/Midwest advocate to have the same feeling. What % of blue collar midwest democrats do you think agree drag is 0% sexual and that there's nothing weird about having drag queens hanging out with kids?
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On April 19 2023 04:54 Sadist wrote:Show nested quote +On April 19 2023 04:40 KwarK wrote:
Nah, if we give in to the outrage engine this time then it’ll turn itself off because it’s a reasonable engine with reasonable concerns and not a juggernaut fueled by a cycle of constant moral panic that sustains itself by creating new problems. I mean at some point by fighting them on every little thing it lets them set the agenda. Republican policies are not popular. Fight them on their bullshit policies 24/7 (they want you to pay more for healthcare, insurance companies are the real death panels, forced birth on women, especially rape victims and children, they dont care about pollution or climate change and want your children and grand children to inherit a dystopian hellscape). Its easy to sell the public the above. Getting into the weeds on drag story time and trans issues helps no one. A generic "we support the rights of individuals" and passing laws to protect them quietly is the way to go. Hammer them on the other stuff. Democrats need to do better at setting the agenda.
This is it, Republicans dictate the narrative constantly, it puts Democrats on the backfoot and even hurts them should they sufficiently acknowledge the jackassery.
Democrats need to stop letting Republicans decide what the national narrative is by responding to what amounts to diarrhea. Ignore their stupidity, whatever dipshit nonsense theyre doing, ignore it and focus on promoting a positive agenda that can materially impact people for the better.
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On April 19 2023 08:12 FueledUpAndReadyToGo wrote:800 million dollar admission of guilt to lying about election tampering to the entire country. Sad we won't get Tucker Carlson and Hannity standing trial but at least they can never spin this shit again now.
Oh you sweet summer child.
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United States42656 Posts
Looks like Justice Thomas accepted $700k under the table from the Heritage Foundation and failed to disclose it. When questioned he explained that he didn’t intentionally fail to report the payments, he’s just not very good at reading or understanding legal documents.
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But does it matter? It is not like you can ever get rid of him now that he has his seat.
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In theory, they could be impeached, and that is the only way to remove them from office.
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EPT
