Now that we have a new thread, in order to ensure that this thread continues to meet TL standards and follows the proper guidelines, we will be enforcing the rules in the OP more strictly. Be sure to give them a complete and thorough read before posting!
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On April 18 2023 02:03 Mohdoo wrote: Democrats need to take the L and move onto something else. Focus on emphasizing the issues with hate crimes, suicide, etc etc rather than these spectacles. These drag shows are not some component of the democrat national agenda, but it would be disengenuous for someone to say defense of drag story hour is not something being largely supported/defended by the left wing of the country. They need to do what they did with Latinx and drop it.
This only works if your adversary is operating in good faith. Reasonable concessions aren’t the desired goal of the conservative outrage engine, outrage is the goal. With that in mind there is zero upside to making any concessions, the goalposts will simply get moved. Consider the CRT panic and imagine a hypothetical in which the Democrats immediately conceded that CRT shouldn’t be taught to children. Congratulations, you’re living in that hypothetical world because it never was taught to children. It doesn’t matter, the outrage engine doesn’t care.
Taking the L doesn’t lead to peace, it leads to taking another L, then another, then another because at no point will they be satisfied. You could start agreeing with them on every issue and they’ll just start disagreeing with their previous positions. You could enact the Heritage Foundation’s market based approach to providing wider healthcare coverage and they’d hate it. The culture war is the point, there is no ideology behind it.
On April 18 2023 02:03 Mohdoo wrote: DPB, since these quote chains can get excessive, I'm scaling it back
I was specifically thinking about kids in schools / assemblies and speakers at public schools. If there is a guest speaker at a school, the students would experience what that person wants to say / the identity of that person. Hypothetically, the conservative parents could purposely keep their children home from school that day, but some wouldn't. So it's not so much about conservatives voluntarily bringing their kids to drag story time, but rather kids separately being in an environment that includes drag story time.
What do you mean by "improve the situation"? Is the situation you're referring to "normalizing drag and LGBTQ+ communities for people who are neutral / blank slates, like children" or is it "convincing explicitly anti-drag / anti-LGBTQ+ people to be more accepting"? Because if it's the former, speaking with members of those communities is absolutely one great way to normalize different demographics. If it's the latter, the people who are aggressively anti-drag/LGBTQ+ are going to be less likely to change their perspective, and if they refuse to ever engage then there's not much to be done (we'd need to just let them and their ideology die out over time).
1) Are these drag things happening at schools right now? I didn't think they were, so correct me if I am wrong. I do agree that kids gaining empathy through experience is a good thing, but I still think this is simply not the right way to go about it. I feel like my time spent in school taught me about how some people are gay and some people aren't. Throw in some about "some people identify as the gender matching their body and some don't. Both are valid and we should treat them with respect just like anyone else" and we're good.
I think making this such a shoved in spectacle just isn't the right way to handle it. They are letting resentment of bigotry compel them to take a less elegant approach. The statistics around basically all kids regarding trans/gay stuff right now is super clear. We are just waiting for old bigots to die. This is not a Zoomer problem. It is a millennial and above problem.
We should be punishing hate crimes, fighting harder against hate groups, and spreading awareness. I grew up in a very progressive area and have never attended some kinda school-led drag show story time thing, so I am assuming this is a new thing. It feels like the wrong reaction.
These "drag things" are rarely happening anywhere; this is 99% fearmongering from conservatives. On occasion, there's apparently a story or two about something linking an adult in drag to a kid learning from them, but the "concern" is that the drag community is going to somehow manipulate the children into messing up their lives, very similar to the assertion that kids talking to gay people is going to "turn them gay". If it's a voluntary drag storytelling that parents want to bring their kids to, then there's no controversy whatsoever. I agree with you that we should be "punishing hate crimes, fighting harder against hate groups, and spreading awareness".
2) Here is my definition of "improve the situation", which I am assuming to be the goal of drag story time: Increase the percentage of people who are non-bigoted and decrease violence and other unsavory behavior.
If you had to guess, would you say the buzz around drag story time has been a net positive or net negative for LGBTQ folks? Do you think the anti-bigot seeds being planted in children are outweighing the response to this stuff from bigots?
I can't emphasize enough how bad of an idea it is to try to fight bigotry by addressing a subject that is even slightly vaguely sexual (LGBTQ stuff is inherently sexual from an optics/culture perspective) through kids stuff. The backlash writes itself. It is just a really bad play. I am not a political/sociological operative, so I won't pretend I have all the right ideas, since its not my job, but from my arm chair, I can look at this situation and say with great confidence "this ain't it".
It is hard to see the way democrats have embraced drag story time as anything other than resentment/knee-jerk defiance of conservatives. Democrats need to take the L and move onto something else. Focus on emphasizing the issues with hate crimes, suicide, etc etc rather than these spectacles. These drag shows are not some component of the democrat national agenda, but it would be disengenuous for someone to say defense of drag story hour is not something being largely supported/defended by the left wing of the country. They need to do what they did with Latinx and drop it.
I have no idea. Conversations about drag shows and drag storytelling might anger anti-drag people (who, as I said before, are going to pearl-clutch about anything anyway), but those same conversations might be a net positive for the drag community or people who don't know anything about the community. I agree that we also need to be having conversations about hate crimes, suicide, and everything else, but solutions to those include normalizing identities that have a stigma/taboo attached to them (such as being gay, trans, or interested in dressing in drag).
I am saying are these events happening in schools? If not, then it sounds like that awareness isn't happening right now. Are you saying you are advocating for it? Like you want drag story time in schools?
From what you are saying, it sounds like the number of these events like the link above are remarkably low. And they are not happening in schools. So back to my previous point, the only kids being vaccinated against bigotry are the ones with parents thinking this is a good thing? That kind of kills the whole idea that the kid was likely to grow up a bigot right?
Liberals bringing their kids to go hang out with drag queens is never going to be "no controversy whatsoever". Go to Google and search either "Drag queens" or "drag shows" and you will see plenty of examples of why conservatives are going to go nuts at the thought of kids hanging around that. Democrats making it something they support and defend is just so nuts from a national messaging perspective. I understand and agree that drag shows are not inherently sexual, but it would be extremely silly to pretend there is not a wealth of culture/media around it being at least slightly sexual. It is not reasonable to pretend the whole country should understand there is nuance to the situation. And all it takes is 1 drag story time with some guy in a short skirt (in general drag is considered men wearing women's clothing, NOT trans women, so I am using guy here) and suddenly that is the poster child for drag shows across the country.
2) It sounds like you aren't sure, and that's fair, I won't pretend I have any data in front of me and I am just speaking to my impressions, so I'll just drop the whole net negative/positive from a messaging perspective and just focus on why I think this is not a good thing from a national messaging perspective in any subsequent replies.
On April 18 2023 02:03 Mohdoo wrote: Democrats need to take the L and move onto something else. Focus on emphasizing the issues with hate crimes, suicide, etc etc rather than these spectacles. These drag shows are not some component of the democrat national agenda, but it would be disengenuous for someone to say defense of drag story hour is not something being largely supported/defended by the left wing of the country. They need to do what they did with Latinx and drop it.
This only works if your adversary is operating in good faith. Reasonable concessions aren’t the desired goal of the conservative outrage engine, outrage is the goal. With that in mind there is zero upside to making any concessions, the goalposts will simply get moved. Consider the CRT panic and imagine a hypothetical in which the Democrats immediately conceded that CRT shouldn’t be taught to children. Congratulations, you’re living in that hypothetical world because it never was taught to children. It doesn’t matter, the outrage engine doesn’t care.
Taking the L doesn’t lead to peace, it leads to taking another L, then another, then another because at no point will they be satisfied. You could start agreeing with them on every issue and they’ll just start disagreeing with their previous positions. You could enact the Heritage Foundation’s market based approach to providing wider healthcare coverage and they’d hate it. The culture war is the point, there is no ideology behind it.
I think this is essentially a false equivalence. You are saying since they'll screech about anything, it doesn't matter what we do. That is not true.
These 3 situations would not receive the same amount of outrage:
1) Story time with kids where gay characters are in the stories, in an entirely benign way, to show kids gay people are just normal people and that's where it ends.
3) Trying to get kids to actively participate and have drag shows themselves and getting tips and tricks and mentoring from drag queens to become drag queens themselves
These 3 situations would illicit different levels of response with a different % of people outraged. Yes, conservatives would generally dislike all 3 situations, but the response to (1) would be less than (2), which would be less than (3) and I think we can all agree that much is true.
Well, sadly I think no, I can't agree with that. You talk about having gay characters in stories not angering conservatives as much, but they literally banned books in Florida that did exactly what you're saying, equating it to pornography. It's the exact same thing. They came after it just the same, they even used the exact same fear-mongering tactics, it just resulted in banning books instead of having domestic terrorists crowding libraries. Pick your poison.
Ultimately my point is that we shouldn't be negotiating with terrorists. Part of the reason this is so terrifying in the bigger picture is because it is similar to what's going on with transgender folks, where moderates sacrifice them and join Republicans in shitting on them and denying their existence, hoping it keeps the Republicans happy and prevents them from coming after other groups. It only emboldens them. They never get to come for you if you stand with the most marginalized group that they came after in the first place. They want you to make concessions so that they can ask for more, you can't give it to them.
On April 18 2023 02:03 Mohdoo wrote: Democrats need to take the L and move onto something else. Focus on emphasizing the issues with hate crimes, suicide, etc etc rather than these spectacles. These drag shows are not some component of the democrat national agenda, but it would be disengenuous for someone to say defense of drag story hour is not something being largely supported/defended by the left wing of the country. They need to do what they did with Latinx and drop it.
This only works if your adversary is operating in good faith. Reasonable concessions aren’t the desired goal of the conservative outrage engine, outrage is the goal. With that in mind there is zero upside to making any concessions, the goalposts will simply get moved. Consider the CRT panic and imagine a hypothetical in which the Democrats immediately conceded that CRT shouldn’t be taught to children. Congratulations, you’re living in that hypothetical world because it never was taught to children. It doesn’t matter, the outrage engine doesn’t care.
Taking the L doesn’t lead to peace, it leads to taking another L, then another, then another because at no point will they be satisfied. You could start agreeing with them on every issue and they’ll just start disagreeing with their previous positions. You could enact the Heritage Foundation’s market based approach to providing wider healthcare coverage and they’d hate it. The culture war is the point, there is no ideology behind it.
I think this is essentially a false equivalence. You are saying since they'll screech about anything, it doesn't matter what we do. That is not true.
These 3 situations would not receive the same amount of outrage:
1) Story time with kids where gay characters are in the stories, in an entirely benign way, to show kids gay people are just normal people and that's where it ends.
3) Trying to get kids to actively participate and have drag shows themselves and getting tips and tricks and mentoring from drag queens to become drag queens themselves
These 3 situations would illicit different levels of response with a different % of people outraged. Yes, conservatives would generally dislike all 3 situations, but the response to (1) would be less than (2), which would be less than (3) and I think we can all agree that much is true.
Coming from the UK where there were months long protests, sometimes violent, outside a school where 1) happened, i can confirm that this isn't true. The headteacher was sent death threats, teachers were pelted with eggs, and the pupils had to leave their own school out of a rear exit to avoid the raging crowds.
On April 18 2023 02:03 Mohdoo wrote: Democrats need to take the L and move onto something else. Focus on emphasizing the issues with hate crimes, suicide, etc etc rather than these spectacles. These drag shows are not some component of the democrat national agenda, but it would be disengenuous for someone to say defense of drag story hour is not something being largely supported/defended by the left wing of the country. They need to do what they did with Latinx and drop it.
This only works if your adversary is operating in good faith. Reasonable concessions aren’t the desired goal of the conservative outrage engine, outrage is the goal. With that in mind there is zero upside to making any concessions, the goalposts will simply get moved. Consider the CRT panic and imagine a hypothetical in which the Democrats immediately conceded that CRT shouldn’t be taught to children. Congratulations, you’re living in that hypothetical world because it never was taught to children. It doesn’t matter, the outrage engine doesn’t care.
Taking the L doesn’t lead to peace, it leads to taking another L, then another, then another because at no point will they be satisfied. You could start agreeing with them on every issue and they’ll just start disagreeing with their previous positions. You could enact the Heritage Foundation’s market based approach to providing wider healthcare coverage and they’d hate it. The culture war is the point, there is no ideology behind it.
I think this is essentially a false equivalence. You are saying since they'll screech about anything, it doesn't matter what we do. That is not true.
These 3 situations would not receive the same amount of outrage:
1) Story time with kids where gay characters are in the stories, in an entirely benign way, to show kids gay people are just normal people and that's where it ends.
3) Trying to get kids to actively participate and have drag shows themselves and getting tips and tricks and mentoring from drag queens to become drag queens themselves
These 3 situations would illicit different levels of response with a different % of people outraged. Yes, conservatives would generally dislike all 3 situations, but the response to (1) would be less than (2), which would be less than (3) and I think we can all agree that much is true.
Coming from the UK where there were months long protests, sometimes violent, outside a school where 1) happened, i can confirm that this isn't true. The headteacher was sent death threats, teachers were pelted with eggs, and the pupils had to leave their own school out of a rear exit to avoid the raging crowds.
Crazies will go after anything. Crazies are not the problem for social progress. Middle folks are the major component. If Middle folks end up saying "ehhhh, this is a bit much", it is lights out. You can not make significant changes without widespread support. Ignore the crazies. They'll burn down buildings either way. We already have polls regarding drag story time. It ain't good. I am saying committing to an idea that already polls terribly is not the right play. Do something else. This is a losing battle, just like abortion for republicans.
On April 18 2023 02:03 Mohdoo wrote: Democrats need to take the L and move onto something else. Focus on emphasizing the issues with hate crimes, suicide, etc etc rather than these spectacles. These drag shows are not some component of the democrat national agenda, but it would be disengenuous for someone to say defense of drag story hour is not something being largely supported/defended by the left wing of the country. They need to do what they did with Latinx and drop it.
This only works if your adversary is operating in good faith. Reasonable concessions aren’t the desired goal of the conservative outrage engine, outrage is the goal. With that in mind there is zero upside to making any concessions, the goalposts will simply get moved. Consider the CRT panic and imagine a hypothetical in which the Democrats immediately conceded that CRT shouldn’t be taught to children. Congratulations, you’re living in that hypothetical world because it never was taught to children. It doesn’t matter, the outrage engine doesn’t care.
Taking the L doesn’t lead to peace, it leads to taking another L, then another, then another because at no point will they be satisfied. You could start agreeing with them on every issue and they’ll just start disagreeing with their previous positions. You could enact the Heritage Foundation’s market based approach to providing wider healthcare coverage and they’d hate it. The culture war is the point, there is no ideology behind it.
I think this is essentially a false equivalence. You are saying since they'll screech about anything, it doesn't matter what we do. That is not true.
These 3 situations would not receive the same amount of outrage:
1) Story time with kids where gay characters are in the stories, in an entirely benign way, to show kids gay people are just normal people and that's where it ends.
3) Trying to get kids to actively participate and have drag shows themselves and getting tips and tricks and mentoring from drag queens to become drag queens themselves
These 3 situations would illicit different levels of response with a different % of people outraged. Yes, conservatives would generally dislike all 3 situations, but the response to (1) would be less than (2), which would be less than (3) and I think we can all agree that much is true.
Coming from the UK where there were months long protests, sometimes violent, outside a school where 1) happened, i can confirm that this isn't true. The headteacher was sent death threats, teachers were pelted with eggs, and the pupils had to leave their own school out of a rear exit to avoid the raging crowds.
Crazies will go after anything. Crazies are not the problem for social progress. Middle folks are the major component. If Middle folks end up saying "ehhhh, this is a bit much", it is lights out. You can not make significant changes without widespread support. Ignore the crazies. They'll burn down buildings either way. We already have polls regarding drag story time. It ain't good. I am saying committing to an idea that already polls terribly is not the right play. Do something else. This is a losing battle, just like abortion for republicans.
Do you think there was ever a time where making being gay legal would have polled badly among the middle people?
On April 18 2023 02:03 Mohdoo wrote: DPB, since these quote chains can get excessive, I'm scaling it back
I was specifically thinking about kids in schools / assemblies and speakers at public schools. If there is a guest speaker at a school, the students would experience what that person wants to say / the identity of that person. Hypothetically, the conservative parents could purposely keep their children home from school that day, but some wouldn't. So it's not so much about conservatives voluntarily bringing their kids to drag story time, but rather kids separately being in an environment that includes drag story time.
What do you mean by "improve the situation"? Is the situation you're referring to "normalizing drag and LGBTQ+ communities for people who are neutral / blank slates, like children" or is it "convincing explicitly anti-drag / anti-LGBTQ+ people to be more accepting"? Because if it's the former, speaking with members of those communities is absolutely one great way to normalize different demographics. If it's the latter, the people who are aggressively anti-drag/LGBTQ+ are going to be less likely to change their perspective, and if they refuse to ever engage then there's not much to be done (we'd need to just let them and their ideology die out over time).
1) Are these drag things happening at schools right now? I didn't think they were, so correct me if I am wrong. I do agree that kids gaining empathy through experience is a good thing, but I still think this is simply not the right way to go about it. I feel like my time spent in school taught me about how some people are gay and some people aren't. Throw in some about "some people identify as the gender matching their body and some don't. Both are valid and we should treat them with respect just like anyone else" and we're good.
I think making this such a shoved in spectacle just isn't the right way to handle it. They are letting resentment of bigotry compel them to take a less elegant approach. The statistics around basically all kids regarding trans/gay stuff right now is super clear. We are just waiting for old bigots to die. This is not a Zoomer problem. It is a millennial and above problem.
We should be punishing hate crimes, fighting harder against hate groups, and spreading awareness. I grew up in a very progressive area and have never attended some kinda school-led drag show story time thing, so I am assuming this is a new thing. It feels like the wrong reaction.
These "drag things" are rarely happening anywhere; this is 99% fearmongering from conservatives. On occasion, there's apparently a story or two about something linking an adult in drag to a kid learning from them, but the "concern" is that the drag community is going to somehow manipulate the children into messing up their lives, very similar to the assertion that kids talking to gay people is going to "turn them gay". If it's a voluntary drag storytelling that parents want to bring their kids to, then there's no controversy whatsoever. I agree with you that we should be "punishing hate crimes, fighting harder against hate groups, and spreading awareness".
2) Here is my definition of "improve the situation", which I am assuming to be the goal of drag story time: Increase the percentage of people who are non-bigoted and decrease violence and other unsavory behavior.
If you had to guess, would you say the buzz around drag story time has been a net positive or net negative for LGBTQ folks? Do you think the anti-bigot seeds being planted in children are outweighing the response to this stuff from bigots?
I can't emphasize enough how bad of an idea it is to try to fight bigotry by addressing a subject that is even slightly vaguely sexual (LGBTQ stuff is inherently sexual from an optics/culture perspective) through kids stuff. The backlash writes itself. It is just a really bad play. I am not a political/sociological operative, so I won't pretend I have all the right ideas, since its not my job, but from my arm chair, I can look at this situation and say with great confidence "this ain't it".
It is hard to see the way democrats have embraced drag story time as anything other than resentment/knee-jerk defiance of conservatives. Democrats need to take the L and move onto something else. Focus on emphasizing the issues with hate crimes, suicide, etc etc rather than these spectacles. These drag shows are not some component of the democrat national agenda, but it would be disengenuous for someone to say defense of drag story hour is not something being largely supported/defended by the left wing of the country. They need to do what they did with Latinx and drop it.
I have no idea. Conversations about drag shows and drag storytelling might anger anti-drag people (who, as I said before, are going to pearl-clutch about anything anyway), but those same conversations might be a net positive for the drag community or people who don't know anything about the community. I agree that we also need to be having conversations about hate crimes, suicide, and everything else, but solutions to those include normalizing identities that have a stigma/taboo attached to them (such as being gay, trans, or interested in dressing in drag).
I am saying are these events happening in schools? If not, then it sounds like that awareness isn't happening right now. Are you saying you are advocating for it? Like you want drag story time in schools?
From what you are saying, it sounds like the number of these events like the link above are remarkably low. And they are not happening in schools. So back to my previous point, the only kids being vaccinated against bigotry are the ones with parents thinking this is a good thing? That kind of kills the whole idea that the kid was likely to grow up a bigot right?
Liberals bringing their kids to go hang out with drag queens is never going to be "no controversy whatsoever". Go to Google and search either "Drag queens" or "drag shows" and you will see plenty of examples of why conservatives are going to go nuts at the thought of kids hanging around that. Democrats making it something they support and defend is just so nuts from a national messaging perspective. I understand and agree that drag shows are not inherently sexual, but it would be extremely silly to pretend there is not a wealth of culture/media around it being at least slightly sexual. It is not reasonable to pretend the whole country should understand there is nuance to the situation. And all it takes is 1 drag story time with some guy in a short skirt (in general drag is considered men wearing women's clothing, NOT trans women, so I am using guy here) and suddenly that is the poster child for drag shows across the country.
2) It sounds like you aren't sure, and that's fair, I won't pretend I have any data in front of me and I am just speaking to my impressions, so I'll just drop the whole net negative/positive from a messaging perspective and just focus on why I think this is not a good thing from a national messaging perspective in any subsequent replies.
On April 18 2023 02:03 Mohdoo wrote: Democrats need to take the L and move onto something else. Focus on emphasizing the issues with hate crimes, suicide, etc etc rather than these spectacles. These drag shows are not some component of the democrat national agenda, but it would be disengenuous for someone to say defense of drag story hour is not something being largely supported/defended by the left wing of the country. They need to do what they did with Latinx and drop it.
This only works if your adversary is operating in good faith. Reasonable concessions aren’t the desired goal of the conservative outrage engine, outrage is the goal. With that in mind there is zero upside to making any concessions, the goalposts will simply get moved. Consider the CRT panic and imagine a hypothetical in which the Democrats immediately conceded that CRT shouldn’t be taught to children. Congratulations, you’re living in that hypothetical world because it never was taught to children. It doesn’t matter, the outrage engine doesn’t care.
Taking the L doesn’t lead to peace, it leads to taking another L, then another, then another because at no point will they be satisfied. You could start agreeing with them on every issue and they’ll just start disagreeing with their previous positions. You could enact the Heritage Foundation’s market based approach to providing wider healthcare coverage and they’d hate it. The culture war is the point, there is no ideology behind it.
I think this is essentially a false equivalence. You are saying since they'll screech about anything, it doesn't matter what we do. That is not true.
These 3 situations would not receive the same amount of outrage:
1) Story time with kids where gay characters are in the stories, in an entirely benign way, to show kids gay people are just normal people and that's where it ends.
3) Trying to get kids to actively participate and have drag shows themselves and getting tips and tricks and mentoring from drag queens to become drag queens themselves
These 3 situations would illicit different levels of response with a different % of people outraged. Yes, conservatives would generally dislike all 3 situations, but the response to (1) would be less than (2), which would be less than (3) and I think we can all agree that much is true.
Coming from the UK where there were months long protests, sometimes violent, outside a school where 1) happened, i can confirm that this isn't true. The headteacher was sent death threats, teachers were pelted with eggs, and the pupils had to leave their own school out of a rear exit to avoid the raging crowds.
Crazies will go after anything. Crazies are not the problem for social progress. Middle folks are the major component.
Middle folks aren't the issue with the drag community. The protesters are groups like the Proud Boys (in your article), a bunch of far-right fascists. They're not the moderate voter or the "enlightened" centrist. It does bring up an interesting point, however, about how important winning the moderate vote is in a left vs. right competition. I thought that the data showed that it was actually a better strategy to just motivate your own voters as opposed to compromising on what your "side" wants while appealing to the center, although I could be mistaken. That's a little off-topic though, so I digress: I'm not deeply invested in the drag issue, and I don't think there needs to be a sweeping mandate that requires all public schools to have drag story time, or anything like that. I also don't think this topic is going to be a pillar of the Democratic party; I think this is a molehill being made into a mountain by conservatives and the occasional news article. I don't think drag stories are a big deal, and I really don't think that Democrats are trying to make it a big deal.
On April 18 2023 02:03 Mohdoo wrote: DPB, since these quote chains can get excessive, I'm scaling it back
I was specifically thinking about kids in schools / assemblies and speakers at public schools. If there is a guest speaker at a school, the students would experience what that person wants to say / the identity of that person. Hypothetically, the conservative parents could purposely keep their children home from school that day, but some wouldn't. So it's not so much about conservatives voluntarily bringing their kids to drag story time, but rather kids separately being in an environment that includes drag story time.
What do you mean by "improve the situation"? Is the situation you're referring to "normalizing drag and LGBTQ+ communities for people who are neutral / blank slates, like children" or is it "convincing explicitly anti-drag / anti-LGBTQ+ people to be more accepting"? Because if it's the former, speaking with members of those communities is absolutely one great way to normalize different demographics. If it's the latter, the people who are aggressively anti-drag/LGBTQ+ are going to be less likely to change their perspective, and if they refuse to ever engage then there's not much to be done (we'd need to just let them and their ideology die out over time).
1) Are these drag things happening at schools right now? I didn't think they were, so correct me if I am wrong. I do agree that kids gaining empathy through experience is a good thing, but I still think this is simply not the right way to go about it. I feel like my time spent in school taught me about how some people are gay and some people aren't. Throw in some about "some people identify as the gender matching their body and some don't. Both are valid and we should treat them with respect just like anyone else" and we're good.
I think making this such a shoved in spectacle just isn't the right way to handle it. They are letting resentment of bigotry compel them to take a less elegant approach. The statistics around basically all kids regarding trans/gay stuff right now is super clear. We are just waiting for old bigots to die. This is not a Zoomer problem. It is a millennial and above problem.
We should be punishing hate crimes, fighting harder against hate groups, and spreading awareness. I grew up in a very progressive area and have never attended some kinda school-led drag show story time thing, so I am assuming this is a new thing. It feels like the wrong reaction.
These "drag things" are rarely happening anywhere; this is 99% fearmongering from conservatives. On occasion, there's apparently a story or two about something linking an adult in drag to a kid learning from them, but the "concern" is that the drag community is going to somehow manipulate the children into messing up their lives, very similar to the assertion that kids talking to gay people is going to "turn them gay". If it's a voluntary drag storytelling that parents want to bring their kids to, then there's no controversy whatsoever. I agree with you that we should be "punishing hate crimes, fighting harder against hate groups, and spreading awareness".
2) Here is my definition of "improve the situation", which I am assuming to be the goal of drag story time: Increase the percentage of people who are non-bigoted and decrease violence and other unsavory behavior.
If you had to guess, would you say the buzz around drag story time has been a net positive or net negative for LGBTQ folks? Do you think the anti-bigot seeds being planted in children are outweighing the response to this stuff from bigots?
I can't emphasize enough how bad of an idea it is to try to fight bigotry by addressing a subject that is even slightly vaguely sexual (LGBTQ stuff is inherently sexual from an optics/culture perspective) through kids stuff. The backlash writes itself. It is just a really bad play. I am not a political/sociological operative, so I won't pretend I have all the right ideas, since its not my job, but from my arm chair, I can look at this situation and say with great confidence "this ain't it".
It is hard to see the way democrats have embraced drag story time as anything other than resentment/knee-jerk defiance of conservatives. Democrats need to take the L and move onto something else. Focus on emphasizing the issues with hate crimes, suicide, etc etc rather than these spectacles. These drag shows are not some component of the democrat national agenda, but it would be disengenuous for someone to say defense of drag story hour is not something being largely supported/defended by the left wing of the country. They need to do what they did with Latinx and drop it.
I have no idea. Conversations about drag shows and drag storytelling might anger anti-drag people (who, as I said before, are going to pearl-clutch about anything anyway), but those same conversations might be a net positive for the drag community or people who don't know anything about the community. I agree that we also need to be having conversations about hate crimes, suicide, and everything else, but solutions to those include normalizing identities that have a stigma/taboo attached to them (such as being gay, trans, or interested in dressing in drag).
I am saying are these events happening in schools? If not, then it sounds like that awareness isn't happening right now. Are you saying you are advocating for it? Like you want drag story time in schools?
From what you are saying, it sounds like the number of these events like the link above are remarkably low. And they are not happening in schools. So back to my previous point, the only kids being vaccinated against bigotry are the ones with parents thinking this is a good thing? That kind of kills the whole idea that the kid was likely to grow up a bigot right?
Liberals bringing their kids to go hang out with drag queens is never going to be "no controversy whatsoever". Go to Google and search either "Drag queens" or "drag shows" and you will see plenty of examples of why conservatives are going to go nuts at the thought of kids hanging around that. Democrats making it something they support and defend is just so nuts from a national messaging perspective. I understand and agree that drag shows are not inherently sexual, but it would be extremely silly to pretend there is not a wealth of culture/media around it being at least slightly sexual. It is not reasonable to pretend the whole country should understand there is nuance to the situation. And all it takes is 1 drag story time with some guy in a short skirt (in general drag is considered men wearing women's clothing, NOT trans women, so I am using guy here) and suddenly that is the poster child for drag shows across the country.
2) It sounds like you aren't sure, and that's fair, I won't pretend I have any data in front of me and I am just speaking to my impressions, so I'll just drop the whole net negative/positive from a messaging perspective and just focus on why I think this is not a good thing from a national messaging perspective in any subsequent replies.
On April 18 2023 02:03 Mohdoo wrote: Democrats need to take the L and move onto something else. Focus on emphasizing the issues with hate crimes, suicide, etc etc rather than these spectacles. These drag shows are not some component of the democrat national agenda, but it would be disengenuous for someone to say defense of drag story hour is not something being largely supported/defended by the left wing of the country. They need to do what they did with Latinx and drop it.
This only works if your adversary is operating in good faith. Reasonable concessions aren’t the desired goal of the conservative outrage engine, outrage is the goal. With that in mind there is zero upside to making any concessions, the goalposts will simply get moved. Consider the CRT panic and imagine a hypothetical in which the Democrats immediately conceded that CRT shouldn’t be taught to children. Congratulations, you’re living in that hypothetical world because it never was taught to children. It doesn’t matter, the outrage engine doesn’t care.
Taking the L doesn’t lead to peace, it leads to taking another L, then another, then another because at no point will they be satisfied. You could start agreeing with them on every issue and they’ll just start disagreeing with their previous positions. You could enact the Heritage Foundation’s market based approach to providing wider healthcare coverage and they’d hate it. The culture war is the point, there is no ideology behind it.
I think this is essentially a false equivalence. You are saying since they'll screech about anything, it doesn't matter what we do. That is not true.
These 3 situations would not receive the same amount of outrage:
1) Story time with kids where gay characters are in the stories, in an entirely benign way, to show kids gay people are just normal people and that's where it ends.
3) Trying to get kids to actively participate and have drag shows themselves and getting tips and tricks and mentoring from drag queens to become drag queens themselves
These 3 situations would illicit different levels of response with a different % of people outraged. Yes, conservatives would generally dislike all 3 situations, but the response to (1) would be less than (2), which would be less than (3) and I think we can all agree that much is true.
Coming from the UK where there were months long protests, sometimes violent, outside a school where 1) happened, i can confirm that this isn't true. The headteacher was sent death threats, teachers were pelted with eggs, and the pupils had to leave their own school out of a rear exit to avoid the raging crowds.
Crazies will go after anything. Crazies are not the problem for social progress. Middle folks are the major component.
Middle folks aren't the issue with the drag community. The protesters are groups like the Proud Boys (in your article), a bunch of far-right fascists. They're not the moderate voter or the "enlightened" centrist. It does bring up an interesting point, however, about how important winning the moderate vote is in a left vs. right competition. I thought that the data showed that it was actually a better strategy to just motivate your own voters as opposed to compromising on what your "side" wants while appealing to the center, although I could be mistaken. That's a little off-topic though, so I digress: I'm not deeply invested in the drag issue, and I don't think there needs to be a sweeping mandate that requires all public schools to have drag story time, or anything like that. I also don't think this topic is going to be a pillar of the Democratic party; I think this is a molehill being made into a mountain by conservatives and the occasional news article. I don't think drag stories are a big deal, and I really don't think that Democrats are trying to make it a big deal.
Indeed, and this is a good frame of reference that shows why Dems doing anything like saying, “you know what, these bigots are right, drag story times are banned,” is such an L.
On April 18 2023 02:03 Mohdoo wrote: DPB, since these quote chains can get excessive, I'm scaling it back
I was specifically thinking about kids in schools / assemblies and speakers at public schools. If there is a guest speaker at a school, the students would experience what that person wants to say / the identity of that person. Hypothetically, the conservative parents could purposely keep their children home from school that day, but some wouldn't. So it's not so much about conservatives voluntarily bringing their kids to drag story time, but rather kids separately being in an environment that includes drag story time.
What do you mean by "improve the situation"? Is the situation you're referring to "normalizing drag and LGBTQ+ communities for people who are neutral / blank slates, like children" or is it "convincing explicitly anti-drag / anti-LGBTQ+ people to be more accepting"? Because if it's the former, speaking with members of those communities is absolutely one great way to normalize different demographics. If it's the latter, the people who are aggressively anti-drag/LGBTQ+ are going to be less likely to change their perspective, and if they refuse to ever engage then there's not much to be done (we'd need to just let them and their ideology die out over time).
1) Are these drag things happening at schools right now? I didn't think they were, so correct me if I am wrong. I do agree that kids gaining empathy through experience is a good thing, but I still think this is simply not the right way to go about it. I feel like my time spent in school taught me about how some people are gay and some people aren't. Throw in some about "some people identify as the gender matching their body and some don't. Both are valid and we should treat them with respect just like anyone else" and we're good.
I think making this such a shoved in spectacle just isn't the right way to handle it. They are letting resentment of bigotry compel them to take a less elegant approach. The statistics around basically all kids regarding trans/gay stuff right now is super clear. We are just waiting for old bigots to die. This is not a Zoomer problem. It is a millennial and above problem.
We should be punishing hate crimes, fighting harder against hate groups, and spreading awareness. I grew up in a very progressive area and have never attended some kinda school-led drag show story time thing, so I am assuming this is a new thing. It feels like the wrong reaction.
These "drag things" are rarely happening anywhere; this is 99% fearmongering from conservatives. On occasion, there's apparently a story or two about something linking an adult in drag to a kid learning from them, but the "concern" is that the drag community is going to somehow manipulate the children into messing up their lives, very similar to the assertion that kids talking to gay people is going to "turn them gay". If it's a voluntary drag storytelling that parents want to bring their kids to, then there's no controversy whatsoever. I agree with you that we should be "punishing hate crimes, fighting harder against hate groups, and spreading awareness".
2) Here is my definition of "improve the situation", which I am assuming to be the goal of drag story time: Increase the percentage of people who are non-bigoted and decrease violence and other unsavory behavior.
If you had to guess, would you say the buzz around drag story time has been a net positive or net negative for LGBTQ folks? Do you think the anti-bigot seeds being planted in children are outweighing the response to this stuff from bigots?
I can't emphasize enough how bad of an idea it is to try to fight bigotry by addressing a subject that is even slightly vaguely sexual (LGBTQ stuff is inherently sexual from an optics/culture perspective) through kids stuff. The backlash writes itself. It is just a really bad play. I am not a political/sociological operative, so I won't pretend I have all the right ideas, since its not my job, but from my arm chair, I can look at this situation and say with great confidence "this ain't it".
It is hard to see the way democrats have embraced drag story time as anything other than resentment/knee-jerk defiance of conservatives. Democrats need to take the L and move onto something else. Focus on emphasizing the issues with hate crimes, suicide, etc etc rather than these spectacles. These drag shows are not some component of the democrat national agenda, but it would be disengenuous for someone to say defense of drag story hour is not something being largely supported/defended by the left wing of the country. They need to do what they did with Latinx and drop it.
I have no idea. Conversations about drag shows and drag storytelling might anger anti-drag people (who, as I said before, are going to pearl-clutch about anything anyway), but those same conversations might be a net positive for the drag community or people who don't know anything about the community. I agree that we also need to be having conversations about hate crimes, suicide, and everything else, but solutions to those include normalizing identities that have a stigma/taboo attached to them (such as being gay, trans, or interested in dressing in drag).
I am saying are these events happening in schools? If not, then it sounds like that awareness isn't happening right now. Are you saying you are advocating for it? Like you want drag story time in schools?
From what you are saying, it sounds like the number of these events like the link above are remarkably low. And they are not happening in schools. So back to my previous point, the only kids being vaccinated against bigotry are the ones with parents thinking this is a good thing? That kind of kills the whole idea that the kid was likely to grow up a bigot right?
Liberals bringing their kids to go hang out with drag queens is never going to be "no controversy whatsoever". Go to Google and search either "Drag queens" or "drag shows" and you will see plenty of examples of why conservatives are going to go nuts at the thought of kids hanging around that. Democrats making it something they support and defend is just so nuts from a national messaging perspective. I understand and agree that drag shows are not inherently sexual, but it would be extremely silly to pretend there is not a wealth of culture/media around it being at least slightly sexual. It is not reasonable to pretend the whole country should understand there is nuance to the situation. And all it takes is 1 drag story time with some guy in a short skirt (in general drag is considered men wearing women's clothing, NOT trans women, so I am using guy here) and suddenly that is the poster child for drag shows across the country.
2) It sounds like you aren't sure, and that's fair, I won't pretend I have any data in front of me and I am just speaking to my impressions, so I'll just drop the whole net negative/positive from a messaging perspective and just focus on why I think this is not a good thing from a national messaging perspective in any subsequent replies.
On April 18 2023 03:39 Mohdoo wrote:
On April 18 2023 03:29 Jockmcplop wrote:
On April 18 2023 02:36 Mohdoo wrote:
On April 18 2023 02:27 KwarK wrote:
On April 18 2023 02:03 Mohdoo wrote: Democrats need to take the L and move onto something else. Focus on emphasizing the issues with hate crimes, suicide, etc etc rather than these spectacles. These drag shows are not some component of the democrat national agenda, but it would be disengenuous for someone to say defense of drag story hour is not something being largely supported/defended by the left wing of the country. They need to do what they did with Latinx and drop it.
This only works if your adversary is operating in good faith. Reasonable concessions aren’t the desired goal of the conservative outrage engine, outrage is the goal. With that in mind there is zero upside to making any concessions, the goalposts will simply get moved. Consider the CRT panic and imagine a hypothetical in which the Democrats immediately conceded that CRT shouldn’t be taught to children. Congratulations, you’re living in that hypothetical world because it never was taught to children. It doesn’t matter, the outrage engine doesn’t care.
Taking the L doesn’t lead to peace, it leads to taking another L, then another, then another because at no point will they be satisfied. You could start agreeing with them on every issue and they’ll just start disagreeing with their previous positions. You could enact the Heritage Foundation’s market based approach to providing wider healthcare coverage and they’d hate it. The culture war is the point, there is no ideology behind it.
I think this is essentially a false equivalence. You are saying since they'll screech about anything, it doesn't matter what we do. That is not true.
These 3 situations would not receive the same amount of outrage:
1) Story time with kids where gay characters are in the stories, in an entirely benign way, to show kids gay people are just normal people and that's where it ends.
3) Trying to get kids to actively participate and have drag shows themselves and getting tips and tricks and mentoring from drag queens to become drag queens themselves
These 3 situations would illicit different levels of response with a different % of people outraged. Yes, conservatives would generally dislike all 3 situations, but the response to (1) would be less than (2), which would be less than (3) and I think we can all agree that much is true.
Coming from the UK where there were months long protests, sometimes violent, outside a school where 1) happened, i can confirm that this isn't true. The headteacher was sent death threats, teachers were pelted with eggs, and the pupils had to leave their own school out of a rear exit to avoid the raging crowds.
Crazies will go after anything. Crazies are not the problem for social progress. Middle folks are the major component.
Middle folks aren't the issue with the drag community. The protesters are groups like the Proud Boys (in your article), a bunch of far-right fascists. They're not the moderate voter or the "enlightened" centrist. It does bring up an interesting point, however, about how important winning the moderate vote is in a left vs. right competition. I thought that the data showed that it was actually a better strategy to just motivate your own voters as opposed to compromising on what your "side" wants while appealing to the center, although I could be mistaken. That's a little off-topic though, so I digress: I'm not deeply invested in the drag issue, and I don't think there needs to be a sweeping mandate that requires all public schools to have drag story time, or anything like that. I also don't think this topic is going to be a pillar of the Democratic party; I think this is a molehill being made into a mountain by conservatives and the occasional news article. I don't think drag stories are a big deal, and I really don't think that Democrats are trying to make it a big deal.
Indeed, and this is a good frame of reference that shows why Dems doing anything like saying, “you know what, these bigots are right, drag story times are banned,” is such an L.
There is a reason drag story time has significantly worse polling that gay/trans rights as a whole. It is a messy, poorly executed, overly-principled concept. The issue is not bigots hating it. The issue is the optics and messaging surrounding it. There are certain components that simply can't be effectively removed from the discussion and it harms the movement as a whole. That is why I compare it to "defund the police". Great idea, great intention, terrible messaging.
I genuinely don't understand why that comparison is even applicable though. One is a call to reform a fundamentally broken law enforcement system, which is complicated and hard to articulate quickly. It's a conversation about social policy. The other is... ??? Drag queens reading books to children? People talking about drag queens that read books to kids? People not understanding that drag queens don't want to just sexually harass your kids? What messaging are we talking about? It feels like we're arguing about the nefarious Deep State again.
You mention repeatedly that the messaging around drag story time is confusing. And I agree, because I'm not even sure what we're talking about here. Drag story time is not a Democrat policy platform, it's something a select few people who dress in drag like to do as an entertainer. I don't get what the issue is. If Republicans start scaremongering that Instacart delivery drivers are secretly black market organ dealers, are we going to say the messaging around Instacart delivery drivers is confusing? I would happen to say yes, but it's not because the drivers are doing anything wrong. There's nothing to poll, because it's not a platform and people aren't voting on it. It's right-wing nutjobs inventing an issue to distract from how they're collapsing society for future generations.
"Drag storytelling..." wow, you have to search very to even find that! I personally think drag is a complete non issue, and it is a silly thing to rage about. Children know what dressing up is, and dressing up like the opposite gender can be pretty fun. As I know drag culture, it isn't about kids-cosy-time anyway, but rather being as glam as possible, on stage. Pretty harmless, really.
The Eurovision Song Contest is not a kids program, but kids certainly watch it. This openly gay drag artist took part in the Norwegian finals this year, and there have been plenty of drag (and trans) artists in the international final as well. 2 years ago, a trans woman was one of the lead presenters of the international final. All harmless IMO. The US needs a show like that!
But being drag is more than dressing up, right? It's an expression of the person's sexuality. I dont know any drag queens and am no psychologist, so correct me if I'm wrong, but it seems that drag is above all a sexual fetish.
Personally, I wouldn't feel great about people emphasizing or expressing their sexuality around my young kids overtly (we all do it to some degree all the time, but I think it is a question of of much). I would similarly feel uncomfortable with a "dominatrix" doing the same thing or public readings in a BDSM club or what ever.
We had a drag queen reading for children where I live - her persona's name is Miss Sexy Wine Whore or something. Do I want her around my kids? No, thanks. But if she's out of her "personality", then it's fine. I would also be fine with a transgender person reading stories.
On April 18 2023 17:24 Elroi wrote: But being drag is more than dressing up, right? It's an expression of the person's sexuality. I dont know any drag queens and am no psychologist, so correct me if I'm wrong, but it seems that drag is a sexual fetish.
Personally, I wouldn't feel great about people emphasizing or expressing their sexuality around my young kids overtly (we all do it to some degree all the time, but I think it is a question of of much). I would similarly feel uncomfortable with a "dominatrix" doing the same thing or public readings in a BDSM club or what ever.
We had a drag queen reading for children where I live - her persona's name is Miss Sexy Wine Whore or something. Do I want her around my kids? No, thanks. But if she's out of her "personality", then it's fine. I would also be fine with a transgender person reading stories.
I guess Drag CAN be a fetish, but my impression is that it is mainly something else, like men enjoying flashy makeup and dresses usually reserved for women. For the audience, it is alot about the fascination how female men can look, and appreciation of the work they put into their appearance. It has become its very own thing, a niche in mainstream entertainment, which is not primarily sexual.
Isn't Drag specifically men dressing like women? I wouldnt consider men wearing flashy makeup that doesnt scream "women" in given cultural context as Drag. Historically there were some cultures where men were using heavy makeup. Also actors/larpers/coseplayers wear makeup all the time (sometimes very flashy) and noone considers this Drag. In my personal opinion it is the intention of wearing things attributed to women in given culture not the flashines that make Drag.
On April 18 2023 17:24 Elroi wrote: But being drag is more than dressing up, right? It's an expression of the person's sexuality. I dont know any drag queens and am no psychologist, so correct me if I'm wrong, but it seems that drag is above all a sexual fetish.
Personally, I wouldn't feel great about people emphasizing or expressing their sexuality around my young kids overtly (we all do it to some degree all the time, but I think it is a question of of much). I would similarly feel uncomfortable with a "dominatrix" doing the same thing or public readings in a BDSM club or what ever.
We had a drag queen reading for children where I live - her persona's name is Miss Sexy Wine Whore or something. Do I want her around my kids? No, thanks. But if she's out of her "personality", then it's fine. I would also be fine with a transgender person reading stories.
I think the 'above all a sexual fetish' is downright wrong, tbh. I don't think drag artists normally get horny from putting on their costumes. That an overt sexuality can be part of the performance is true, but also distinctly different, and this would probably be something that could make you uncomfortable with some drag artists (in the context of them performing for your children), but not with the concept.
On April 18 2023 18:21 Silvanel wrote: Isn't Drag specifically men dressing like women? I wouldnt consider men wearing flashy makeup that doesnt scream "women" in given cultural context as Drag. Historically there were some cultures where men were using heavy makeup. Also actors/larpers/coseplayers wear makeup all the time (sometimes very flashy) and noone considers this Drag. In my personal opinion it is the intention of wearing things attributed to women in given culture not the flashines that make Drag.
It generally takes this form, but to say this defines drag is not exactly true, from what I've seen. Flashiness is one way to put it, but to put more words to it it's an exaggerated form of fashion that attempts to express a character or persona. There is a passing similarity to transgender people with a lot of drag artists, in that their drag persona often feels like their most genuine expression of who they are. Some of them even choose not to go by their given name, even when they're out of drag. There is also some amount of drag that plays with the line between masculine and feminine, it's not strictly an effort to look more feminine. There's a lot of nuance there, and it's something that's still being explored over time. Your definition of drag may have been closer to the truth 20 or so years ago, to be fair.
RuPaul's Drag Race often features a challenge where the artists literally have to do a look that splits them in half, doing a feminine look on one side of their body and a masculine look on the other half, as a very literal example of this.
As to how sexuality plays into it, it's usually from an angle of empowerment, and trying to take ownership of their sexuality. It can be part of the performance, but there's a lot of drag performances that have much more in common with a fashion show, or even a stand-up comedy show, than with a strip club. Kwark mentioned panto a while back, which I think is apt.
On April 18 2023 10:04 NewSunshine wrote: I genuinely don't understand why that comparison is even applicable though. One is a call to reform a fundamentally broken law enforcement system, which is complicated and hard to articulate quickly. It's a conversation about social policy. The other is... ??? Drag queens reading books to children? People talking about drag queens that read books to kids? People not understanding that drag queens don't want to just sexually harass your kids? What messaging are we talking about? It feels like we're arguing about the nefarious Deep State again.
You mention repeatedly that the messaging around drag story time is confusing. And I agree, because I'm not even sure what we're talking about here. Drag story time is not a Democrat policy platform, it's something a select few people who dress in drag like to do as an entertainer. I don't get what the issue is. If Republicans start scaremongering that Instacart delivery drivers are secretly black market organ dealers, are we going to say the messaging around Instacart delivery drivers is confusing? I would happen to say yes, but it's not because the drivers are doing anything wrong. There's nothing to poll, because it's not a platform and people aren't voting on it. It's right-wing nutjobs inventing an issue to distract from how they're collapsing society for future generations.
Attaching ethics to the situation is silly and just leads to knee jerk push back against conservatives. I will do my best to boil this down to individual points in hopes that I do a better job at communicating:
1) The number of these drag story time things is very small. Their impact is amazingly small. They are currently purely confined to situations where parents choose to bring their kids. Its not like public schools are doing this, where they get a broad reach etc and help sway culture
2) Based on (2), we have very little to gain from defending them or pretending they are worth keeping around. The reality is that this fake outreach is not actually changing anyone's minds, giving anyone any unique experiences, and it is mostly just parents patting themselves on the back for expressing their tolerance
3) Cletus is not taking his kids to these story time events, so the people who need to be exposed to this are not
4) In a general sense, speaking purely on sociological/cultural advocacy/progress, the left and the right are always walking on a tight rope, making sure the policies they push do not alienate folks who could swing one way or the other in a voting cycle. Defund the police was an example of messaging that did more harm than good because many people who were open to police reform were like "lol ok buddy" once the conversation seemed to be more like "what if we just didn't have police xd". If you do not agree "defund the police" was terrible messaging from a national politics standpoint, we probably don't have enough common ground to continue this conversation and we can just move on.
5) When Republicans went all-in against abortion and got the supreme court to allow for the dumpster fire we currently have, they alienated a ton of swing voters and also inspired a ton of left leaning folks to get off the couch and vote. The 2022 red wave was enormously dampened by the supreme court decision. This is an example of (4), where going too hard on something, or taking action in a way that gets the enemy fired up is a bad thing. People who could kind of understand both sides of the abortion issue, but didn't want people to be prevented from getting abortions, were suddenly compelled to go vote against republicans. And since abortion is a big issue, it also inspired a lot of left leaning folks to make sure they vote.
6) Just in case this is not just people pretending to not understand the issue some people see, I will just spell it out in great detail: Drag shows are overwhelmingly conveyed as men dressing up in sexy women's clothes in western culture. It is not men dressing up in grandma's church dress. It is men dressing up in short skirts, excessive makeup, big hair, and strutting their stuff on a runway like a model. They commonly call each other sexy and convey how attractive each other are when all dressed up.
No one is saying there is any implied sexual contact with kids at these shows. But it is extremely disingenuous for people to be like "what in the world are you talking about??? why would you EVER think that????" when the topic of drag shows being at least somewhat sexual comes up.
7) Because of (6), drag story time is extremely problematic from a left-wing messaging/brand perspective with regards to (4). We live in an age where national political conversations/ideas are strongly influenced by social media, outrage machines, and hot topic issues.
Remember gay wedding cakes? Of course you do. It was a remarkably small issue, which impacted like 4 people, but it was a national conversation because of the topics it touched on: Small business owner independence/freedom and gay rights. We can't pretend small issues will be treated like small issues.
So let me now add some conclusions from the above:
1) Drag story time has a remarkably small impact on national culture surrounding LGBTQ folks. It is essentially ineffective when you consider who is attending and how many of these events exist
2) Drag story time is a hugely effective rallying call for conservatives and gets them fired up and ready to vote. Gay cakes all over again.
3) The sexuality component can't be ignored because of how drag shows are overwhelmingly conveyed in media.
4) Drag story time polls WAY worse than gay/trans rights as a whole. A ton of people who say "I think gay people should be left alone and let to marry each other etc" but think drag story time is a very bad thing. The goal should be to use things that poll HIGHER to get people in the tent. Not things that poll LOWER to get people in the tent. Talking about violence being bad and how people are violent towards gay/trans folks is a much better way to help LGBTQ folks than drag story time.
Are you making the white moderate/respectability politics + Show Spoiler +
(pearl clutching over people in drag reading to kids/appeasing those that agree with said clutchers enough to not vote Democrat over it is preposterous to me regardless)
argument in earnest or do you not see it as that?
To be clear, it's not that I don't think tactics, strategies, etc... can't or shouldn't be assessed for effectiveness and such, but drag reading hour is volunteer community service that should be encouraged by everyone (especially if they aren't offering to volunteer to read to the kids themselves) imo. Democrats are spineless enough as it is, the least they can do is boisterously oppose functionally banning people in drag from reading to kids in public libraries.
EPT
