EPTUS Politics Mega-thread - Page 4965
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Now that we have a new thread, in order to ensure that this thread continues to meet TL standards and follows the proper guidelines, we will be enforcing the rules in the OP more strictly. Be sure to give them a complete and thorough read before posting! NOTE: When providing a source, please provide a very brief summary on what it's about and what purpose it adds to the discussion. The supporting statement should clearly explain why the subject is relevant and needs to be discussed. Please follow this rule especially for tweets. Your supporting statement should always come BEFORE you provide the source. If you have any questions, comments, concern, or feedback regarding the USPMT, then please use this thread: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/website-feedback/510156-us-politics-thread | ||
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BlackJack
United States10574 Posts
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Liquid`Drone
Norway28906 Posts
This group hardly struggles with phone addiction. Perhaps like two out of 30 do. But they're also way different from the norm. There's another group where I created a strawpoll and asked the students to check how much phone time they had in the past week. like 4-5 of 30 selected the 56+ hours option, and I believe the average for this class was above 40 hours. This is also an all-male class (carpenters to be), and most of them don't really care about school because this is their final year and they're not going to university so their grades are kinda irrelevant as long as they pass, and the bar for that is very low. And among this group, there's a fair amount of 'spends a lot of time watching tik tok'- but still, I do manage to get some engagement from them. I've had 45 minute lectures (generally adviced against with groups like this one) where most have paid attention to what I've been saying, but I also identify as an entertaining teacher. In Norway high school is divided between vocational and 'university-preparing', and there's a pretty stark divide in how motivated the students are - and also how academically gifted - and also how much they pay attention in school between these two groups. (Although some of the vocational subjects, for example computer science related, have pretty high requirements and feels more like a university-preparing class.) When I teach the regular, university preparing classes, my experience is that generally, most students pay attention, and they care. In those classes, many students have mapped out how many points they need to be accepted to the university/major of their choice, and they're like 'well I'm not gifted enough to get a 6 (we grade on a 1-6 scale) from math, so I need one from history, what can I do'. There's very little doom scrolling happening from those, during class. Here's the kicker, though - and what I find depressing. When I observe the students outside of class, during lunch breaks etc, I'll commonly see groups of 10 students - classmates - that are all sitting together around the same table, and there's 0 interaction. They're all scrolling on their individual phones. There's not even any like, haha look at this -> shows phone to friend happening, they're just.. scrolling. Additionally, it used to be that students - especially the ones that were least interested in school - were delighted if you'd show a movie. Now, those same students (not the academically gifted ones) don't have the attention span for a movie, and grow fidgety and bored. Basically there's a huge divide between different groups of students, and I feel like the smart phone has, in a sense, worked to exacerbate pre-existing differences in 'cultural capital'. The ones that come from homes that 20-30 years ago would've binged jerry springer are now total smart phone zombies. But the ones that come from intellectual homes aren't nearly as damaged, if at all. I've also read that there are quite some indicators that one of the best ways to shield yourself from the most damaging aspects of the smart phone, is to spend time in nature. I'm guessing this is a more popular past time activity in Norway (even for kids living in cities) than it is among american city-dwellers, and I could picture that if you're an american teacher who teaches an urban school in a not very affluent and educated neighborhood, you get the experience that nearly every student is brain damaged by social media - because I have also seen those same kids that this teacher references. But my experience is that it describes maybe 20% of my students, and if you disregard the artsy class, my students aren't particularly privileged (from a cultural capital pov). | ||
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Mohdoo
United States15743 Posts
On May 14 2025 06:00 BlackJack wrote: It wasn't all rainbows and sunshine for children back when they were dying of polio, hiding under their desk for nuclear holocaust drills, having their fathers drafted into global conflicts, working in factories because we had weak laws against child labor, etc. Microplastics, genocide, climate change, war.. these are not things the average American teenager experiences firsthand to any degree of severity. Without the doom scrolling it would have zero impact on their lives. In years past a teenager would have to pick up the New York Times if they wanted to learn about global conflicts and if they are reading the NYTimes they probably have some emotional maturity. Now the news of the day is screamed at them by some other know-nothing teen with a degree in TikTok influencing telling them that the world is on fire. I agree. I think its particularly bad for emotionally vulnerable teens who are struggling in various ways. Its the same reason Andrew Tate has been infecting high schools globally. If you tell teenagers you know why they feel confused and anxious, and help them blame it on something external, you've got a follower for life. | ||
KwarK
United States44361 Posts
Teenagers being angry and sad about the poisoned world they’ve been born into is basically a rational response. In many ways it might have been a mistake to poison it. | ||
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WombaT
Northern Ireland27463 Posts
On May 14 2025 06:00 BlackJack wrote: It wasn't all rainbows and sunshine for children back when they were dying of polio, hiding under their desk for nuclear holocaust drills, having their fathers drafted into global conflicts, working in factories because we had weak laws against child labor, etc. Microplastics, genocide, climate change, war.. these are not things the average American teenager experiences firsthand to any degree of severity. Without the doom scrolling it would have zero impact on their lives. In years past a teenager would have to pick up the New York Times if they wanted to learn about global conflicts and if they are reading the NYTimes they probably have some emotional maturity. Now the news of the day is screamed at them by some other know-nothing teen with a degree in TikTok influencing telling them that the world is on fire. It seems rich to complain about youngsters being disaffected by things that don’t personally affect them while you yourself continually complain about incredibly niche stories of ‘woke’ excess that have no impact on your life. | ||
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Mohdoo
United States15743 Posts
On May 14 2025 07:53 KwarK wrote: The world is on fire though. We’ve built the infrastructure upon which billions are fed on carbon emissions that also threaten the food of billions. That’s going to end poorly for people who like having food. Teenagers being angry and sad about the poisoned world they’ve been born into is basically a rational response. In many ways it might have been a mistake to poison it. Algorithms always favor content that allows disconnection though. Either the problem is too grand to solve, meaning people don’t feel a sense of obligation to do something, or the enemy of the situation is already screwed or owned or whatever. People feel discomfort from content that serves as a call to action or makes them feel like they are doing less than they should. The goal is always to either dissociate or feel powerful/smart because it maximizes engagement | ||
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BlackJack
United States10574 Posts
On May 14 2025 08:06 WombaT wrote: It seems rich to complain about youngsters being disaffected by things that don’t personally affect them while you yourself continually complain about incredibly niche stories of ‘woke’ excess that have no impact on your life. Sure… other than having my car stolen and repeatedly broken into because crime has surged under soft-on-crime woke DAs Having to flag down a sales associate to buy deodorant because everything is under lock and key because shoplifting is considered “justice shopping” and goes unpunished Having to concede the sidewalks and public parks to tent cities and dealing with random assaults from mentally ill people because forcing people into treatment is considered more wicked than allowing people to rot on the streets Having to lose many beloved businesses to patronize because COVID lockdowns run amok killed the foot traffic that allowed them to stay afloat Having the highest cost of housing because every housing project is hamstrung by endless permitting and environmental review Definitely nothing there that affects me personally… /sarcasm In seriousness though there are also a lot of niche stories of other examples of wokeness that don’t affect me and I wouldn’t even be aware of if not for social media. I’m not claiming to be too superior to be affected by social media brain rot. It only adds to my point. | ||
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Hat Trick of Today
202 Posts
Eliminating ‘wokeness’ isn’t going to fix the hostile urban design, provide funds to improve the decaying infrastructure or fix lack of social contract between citizens in the country. The problems began well before everyone started crying about woke this and woke that. Outside of high wages, America is really a shithole in more ways than one. | ||
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Velr
Switzerland10962 Posts
Interesting to me was that while ~5 years ago, only 1 of them wanted to ban phones, more for ideological reasons than anything else, now all of them are clearly in favor of it and are for full on bans for the whole school day (no phone during breaks and so on). They also say it's not all students that have issues with it, but a minority in class constantly trying to be on the phone can easily "ruin" a whole class. According to them certain children are just unable to do anything other than use their phone as long as they got it near them, so just putting it in the backpack or something doesn't work. Engagement/Socialisation between students is also way healthier when the phones are gone. The students also seem to like it after a short adjustment period. One other thing they noticed increasing dramatically in recent years is physical violence between Girls. That basically didn't happen ~10 years ago and is now a real issue. | ||
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DarkPlasmaBall
United States46500 Posts
On May 14 2025 16:11 Velr wrote: I'm no teacher myself but got several teachers (4+) in my friendgroup that are. Interesting to me was that while ~5 years ago, only 1 of them wanted to ban phones, more for ideological reasons than anything else, now all of them are clearly in favor of it and are for full on bans for the whole school day (no phone during breaks and so on). They also say it's not all students that have issues with it, but a minority in class constantly trying to be on the phone can easily "ruin" a whole class. According to them certain children are just unable to do anything other than use their phone as long as they got it near them, so just putting it in the backpack or something doesn't work. Engagement/Socialisation between students is also way healthier when the phones are gone. The students also seem to like it after a short adjustment period. One other thing they noticed increasing dramatically in recent years is physical violence between Girls. That basically didn't happen ~10 years ago and is now a real issue. Are your teacher-friends saying that they believe this is related to cell phone usage in school? Or is that just another observation? | ||
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Liquid`Drone
Norway28906 Posts
There have also been schools (up to junior high level) that have banned them from schools entirely and the responses seem positive - also from students. Sadly seems like the parents might be the biggest road block there, but seemingly, there's a big cultural shift happening right now, where more and more school-parent organizations are voicing their concerns and downright calling for cell phone bans. So - at least here, seems like something is happening. But then I'm kinda thinking we're gonna have the same discussion in a couple years regarding AI - 'it's so useful and handy' 'oh turns out the kids didn't learn how to think because they didn't have to'. | ||
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KT_Elwood
Germany1200 Posts
On May 14 2025 07:53 KwarK wrote: The world is on fire though. We’ve built the infrastructure upon which billions are fed on carbon emissions that also threaten the food of billions. That’s going to end poorly for people who like having food. Teenagers being angry and sad about the poisoned world they’ve been born into is basically a rational response. In many ways it might have been a mistake to poison it. It will only end poorly to poor people though, so there is also people trying to climb over others to have their house, preferebly guarded by fences and away from those poor people. I could imagine just going back to "no future". | ||
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Velr
Switzerland10962 Posts
On May 14 2025 16:51 DarkPlasmaBall wrote: Are your teacher-friends saying that they believe this is related to cell phone usage in school? Or is that just another observation? They have no clue, it was just an issue that suddenly showed up one year and then was a new normal. I just googled it a bit and it seems to be a general trend in german speaking countries, couldn't find an article or something that had an actual clue as to why, some suggest that violence is just not seen as "taboo" for girls as it was. | ||
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WombaT
Northern Ireland27463 Posts
On May 14 2025 20:14 Velr wrote: They have no clue, it was just an issue that suddenly showed up one year and then was a new normal. I just googled it a bit and it seems to be a general trend in german speaking countries, couldn't find an article or something that had an actual clue as to why, some suggest that violence is just not seen as "taboo" for girls as it was. Based upon having a younger sister who grew up with smartphones and all those bells and whistles, where I didn’t, one change I observed is various social dynamics come home with you. Sure I might have popped on MSN messenger back in the day to chat, but if I didn’t, that was me done interacting with much of my peers until the next school day. I’d read, or play huge amounts of Pro Evolution Soccer with my brother, or a shitload of WC3 with two buddies who I went to primary school with, but who went to a different secondary. How short of not having a smartphone, or putting it away for the day, there is no real escape. While in her case, and my mum still works at that school there wasn’t a notable uptick in girls being violent, more generally I do wonder if petty squabbles, fallings-out and bickering come to escalate more. Where previously they may have defused, or at least dropped in intensity, perhaps now they do not. Girls tending to be ‘bitchier’ than guys anyway is probably especially accentuated here by these changes. To crudely generalise. | ||
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WombaT
Northern Ireland27463 Posts
On May 14 2025 14:19 BlackJack wrote: Sure… other than having my car stolen and repeatedly broken into because crime has surged under soft-on-crime woke DAs Having to flag down a sales associate to buy deodorant because everything is under lock and key because shoplifting is considered “justice shopping” and goes unpunished Having to concede the sidewalks and public parks to tent cities and dealing with random assaults from mentally ill people because forcing people into treatment is considered more wicked than allowing people to rot on the streets Having to lose many beloved businesses to patronize because COVID lockdowns run amok killed the foot traffic that allowed them to stay afloat Having the highest cost of housing because every housing project is hamstrung by endless permitting and environmental review Definitely nothing there that affects me personally… /sarcasm In seriousness though there are also a lot of niche stories of other examples of wokeness that don’t affect me and I wouldn’t even be aware of if not for social media. I’m not claiming to be too superior to be affected by social media brain rot. It only adds to my point. Also a huge reason I spend so much time here, as I felt either I couldn’t resist the brain rot pull, or trying to circumvent it was just so much effort on other platforms that I just ‘detoxed’ as it were. At least you seem to recognise this, but far too many are nose deep in that trough themselves while thinking it’s only a matter of concern when it comes to the youth | ||
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Simberto
Germany12021 Posts
On May 14 2025 17:16 Liquid`Drone wrote: In theory, most schools in Norway ban cell phones during class, but teachers vary wildly in how much they enforce it. There's nearly ubiquitous agreement that smartphones are poison but it's not always a battle that feels prudent. There have also been schools (up to junior high level) that have banned them from schools entirely and the responses seem positive - also from students. Sadly seems like the parents might be the biggest road block there, but seemingly, there's a big cultural shift happening right now, where more and more school-parent organizations are voicing their concerns and downright calling for cell phone bans. So - at least here, seems like something is happening. But then I'm kinda thinking we're gonna have the same discussion in a couple years regarding AI - 'it's so useful and handy' 'oh turns out the kids didn't learn how to think because they didn't have to'. The school i work at has phone usage banned on the premises, with the sole exception being "with express permission by a teacher". This is enforced pretty strictly, and also lived by the teachers. I think this works pretty well. You can use phones as a tool for research, but they are not always constantly present. Sure I might have popped on MSN messenger back in the day to chat, but if I didn’t, that was me done interacting with much of my peers until the next school day. I’d read, or play huge amounts of Pro Evolution Soccer with my brother, or a shitload of WC3 with two buddies who I went to primary school with, but who went to a different secondary. How short of not having a smartphone, or putting it away for the day, there is no real escape. I find putting your phone on completely silent (not even buzzing) very helpful. This way, i only interact with my phone when i explicitly choose to, it is not constantly demanding my attention for some shit. | ||
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Doublemint
Austria8760 Posts
The Real Reason Tech Moguls Don't Let Their Kids On Social Media The Real Reason Tech Moguls Don't Let Their Kids On Social Media Since the early 2000s, starting with Myspace and continuing with Facebook, social media platforms have become embedded into daily life. There are now even social media sites created specifically for pre-teens and kids (via Internet Matters). Per Statista, there are also more than 15,000 children's apps on Amazon Appstore. With this boundless growth of apps to get kids using phones and tablets more and more, it might seem logical that the people who make the apps and devices would be onboard with their own kids using tech. But that isn't the case. In 2010, a New York Times reporter was shocked when he asked Apple co-founder Steve Jobs, "So, your kids must love the iPad?" to which Jobs responded, "They haven't used it." According to The Independent, other major tech moguls have encouraged their children to spend less time using tech and scrolling through social media. An example is Microsoft founder Bill Gates, who didn't allow his kids to have cell phones until they were 14, set time limits on their screens, and banned phones at the dinner table. Meanwhile, YouTube CEO Susan Wojcicki told The Guardian in 2019 that she will often "take away" her children's phones, especially when they're on vacation. "I want people to interact with each other," she explained. Those in tech know the harm social media can cause According to The Wall Street Journal, it seems that tech giants such as Facebook are well aware of the potential damage to kids caused by social media. In fact, Facebook's own internal research was previously leaked by a whistleblower that showed they knew social media usage could be harmful to kids, particularly for teenage girls. Per Child Mind Institute, social media usage can cause anxiety, lower self-esteem, and can also encourage bullying. "Kids text all sorts of things that you would never in a million years contemplate saying to anyone's face," the clinical and developmental psychologist, Donna Wick, explained. Tech moguls are putting limits on what their own kids can do online, while still also publicly creating and selling products that can cause harm. "For all the advantages they and their kids enjoy — from wealth to education — they don't trust themselves or their kids to be able to resist the charms of the very products they're promoting," Adam Alter, NYU marketing professor and author of the book "Irresistible," told The Independent. "The best we can do is to try to uncover these hypocrisies and air them publicly," he added. there were voices out there that warned people. if the executives of those companies don't let their kids near that stuff, or HEAVILY REGULATE its use themselves, it should tell you something. | ||
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WombaT
Northern Ireland27463 Posts
On May 14 2025 23:33 Simberto wrote: The school i work at has phone usage banned on the premises, with the sole exception being "with express permission by a teacher". This is enforced pretty strictly, and also lived by the teachers. I think this works pretty well. You can use phones as a tool for research, but they are not always constantly present. I find putting your phone on completely silent (not even buzzing) very helpful. This way, i only interact with my phone when i explicitly choose to, it is not constantly demanding my attention for some shit. That helps for sure, I just wiped a bunch of apps after doing a ‘do I really overall benefit from this? Ones I kept I made sure to disable notifications, or sometimes deliberately just used the web app. All definitely adds up and you really notice you’re that bit more focused. I’m still not cured fully as I hit that refresh on TL’s Subscribed Posts page a ridiculous amount! :p Where I do somewhat worry about youngsters is that it’s even more refined now, even more short form. I dipped out before TikTok, hell I refused to get Snapchat despite it costing me a quite promising online dating match haha Where I actually worry more is, they don’t know anything different. I think a lot of us are of an age (35 and a physical husk here), where we were sort of the last generation to grew up without internet ubiquity, never mind having it in your pocket for all your waking hours. Part of my, and plenty of others I’ve known personally, or read of’s tweaks and attempts to untether a bit are almost always informed by experience, of things we did, habits we had that we want to re-introduce. A routine to return to. I wonder if younger generations will even have those kind of habits to begin with. In the sense that if you ate well, were fit and in great shape, lapse a bit, it’s still easier to get back to that than if you’re a person who’s ate badly, not exercised and known nothing else. | ||
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Razyda
1059 Posts
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micronesia
United States24803 Posts
There's no need to set up a phone check at the entrance to a school. I don't want a school employee responsible for hundreds of thousands of dollars of phones... the logistics of that are just a nightmare. The actual solution that works will probably vary by school, but lockers seem like an obvious place for phones. Hell, it's what we do where I work since we can't bring our phones in. | ||
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