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On April 17 2023 09:15 Mohdoo wrote:https://www.foxnews.com/media/washington-bill-allow-medical-transgender-interventions-minors-without-parental-consentI gotta say, this seems like they've lost me here. This is going way too far. Show nested quote +
A Washington State bill that would strip parents' rights to intervene on their kids medical care in certain circumstances passed the House Wednesday, clearing its pathway to being signed by Gov. Jay Inslee.
"An act relating to supporting youth," or Senate Bill 5599, allows host homes for runaway youth "to house youth without parental permission." Furthermore, the host homes do not need to notify parents about where their kids are or if they are getting medical interventions "if there is a compelling reason not to, which includes a youth seeking protected health services."
The "protected health care services" included "gender-affirming care," which for minors arbitrarily included anything prescribed by a doctor to treat dysphoria, the bill said.
"Gender affirming treatment can be prescribed to two-spirit, transgender, nonbinary, and other gender diverse individuals," the bill stated.
https://www.foxnews.com/media/washington-bill-allow-medical-transgender-interventions-minors-without-parental-consent
Given that this is a Fox News article, the whole "parents not being able to make medical decisions that go against expert advice from doctors who have examined and spoken with kids" is probably 99% totally reasonable situations (e.g., vaccinations or other conventional medicines or empirically-supported care that lunatic conservative/religious parents reject). The conversation of "how much control should parents have over their children's lives" is always an interesting one, especially when the parents are negligent.
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On April 17 2023 10:52 Mohdoo wrote:That’s not what I’m focusing on or arguing. Are you saying you view drag story time as a net positive for the lives of LGBTQ people? Do you think it is an effective means of reducing hate and increasing empathy?
Exposing kids to different groups when they're still generally more accepting of people different than them is easier then trying to cut through divisive teachings.
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On April 17 2023 11:02 Gahlo wrote:Show nested quote +On April 17 2023 10:52 Mohdoo wrote:On April 17 2023 10:49 KwarK wrote:
They'd just latch onto something else. That’s not what I’m focusing on or arguing. Are you saying you view drag story time as a net positive for the lives of LGBTQ people? Do you think it is an effective means of reducing hate and increasing empathy? Exposing kids to different groups when they're still generally more accepting of people different than them is easier then trying to cut through divisive teachings.
I addressed this in my 2nd post. I think this is an ineffective and illogical approach to that.
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United States44128 Posts
On April 17 2023 10:52 Mohdoo wrote:That’s not what I’m focusing on or arguing. Are you saying you view drag story time as a net positive for the lives of LGBTQ people? Do you think it is an effective means of reducing hate and increasing empathy?
I'm saying that just as they made up drag queen story time into a completely different thing to get outraged about they would do the same to anything else.
You cannot make the mistake of treating these people as if they're acting in good faith and that they have specific real objections to any specific thing. They're not and they don't. It literally doesn't matter what democrats do, there will always be a drag queen story time because that's the shit their base eats up. You're giving these people way more credit than they deserve. They're idiots led by conmen.
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On April 17 2023 11:06 Mohdoo wrote:Show nested quote +On April 17 2023 11:02 Gahlo wrote:On April 17 2023 10:52 Mohdoo wrote:On April 17 2023 10:49 KwarK wrote:
They'd just latch onto something else. That’s not what I’m focusing on or arguing. Are you saying you view drag story time as a net positive for the lives of LGBTQ people? Do you think it is an effective means of reducing hate and increasing empathy? Exposing kids to different groups when they're still generally more accepting of people different than them is easier then trying to cut through divisive teachings. I addressed this in my 2nd post. I think this is an ineffective and illogical approach to that.
I think it definitely "reduces hate and increases empathy" for the next generation of schoolchildren as they grow up and realize that some of them will be part of the LGBTQ+ community (or different in other ways), but probably exacerbates the situation for anti-LGBTQ+ parents. I actually can't think of many alternative ways to help normalize these demographics where bigoted parents won't get triggered though. They want to cancel any person or company that wears a rainbow sticker ffs, so appeasing those people really isn't possible.
As far as expending political capital on this issue goes, I don't know. We can support social issues while also supporting economic ones, so I don't see these sorts of situations as necessarily losing ones, as long as politicians aren't only running on a single issue like letting people in drag read stories in schools.
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Canada11561 Posts
I don't know if it's that's simple when the drag queens themselves are in disagreement on whether it is sexual or not. I have seen some videos interviewing drag queens where they thought it was sexual in nature and didn't think library hour was especially helpful.
We are also living in a time where people will argue with a straight face that there is nothing whatsoever sexual about a woman being topless. Given that, you can imagine why people are more than a little suspicious on modern culture's general assessment on what is or is not sexual. Simply declaring that it is not is unlikely to get much traction.
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On April 17 2023 11:27 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:Show nested quote +On April 17 2023 11:06 Mohdoo wrote:On April 17 2023 11:02 Gahlo wrote:On April 17 2023 10:52 Mohdoo wrote:On April 17 2023 10:49 KwarK wrote:
They'd just latch onto something else. That’s not what I’m focusing on or arguing. Are you saying you view drag story time as a net positive for the lives of LGBTQ people? Do you think it is an effective means of reducing hate and increasing empathy? Exposing kids to different groups when they're still generally more accepting of people different than them is easier then trying to cut through divisive teachings. I addressed this in my 2nd post. I think this is an ineffective and illogical approach to that. I think it definitely "reduces hate and increases empathy" for the next generation of schoolchildren as they grow up and realize that some of them will be part of the LGBTQ+ community (or different in other ways), but probably exacerbates the situation for anti-LGBTQ+ parents. I actually can't think of many alternative ways to help normalize these demographics where bigoted parents won't get triggered though. They want to cancel any person or company that wears a rainbow sticker ffs, so appeasing those people really isn't possible. As far as expending political capital on this issue goes, I don't know. We can support social issues while also supporting economic ones, so I don't see these sorts of situations as necessarily losing ones, as long as politicians aren't only running on a single issue like letting people in drag read stories in schools.
If you don't mind, I'd like to zoom into some specific points here and better understand your perspective.
When you say schoolchildren will grow up more tolerant from the experiences they have with drag story time, are you saying that children who otherwise would have been raised to be bigots will instead grow up empathetic and accepting of LGBTQ people? Since drag story time is something that parents bring their kids to, it is hard to imagine many of the kids attending are being raised by bigoted parents. I'd go so far as to say the kids who are being brought to drag story time are folks who are already living in progressive areas and being raised by progressive parents.
Which kids, in what circumstances, are you saying will now be given this new perspective that they will carry into adulthood and undo the bigotry that otherwise would have taken hold in their developing psyche? Are there conservative, anti-LGBTQ parents taking their kids to drag story time?
We of course agree on the anti-LGBTQ parents getting even more radicalized by this, so no need to discuss that.
I am not saying we are spending time and energy on the wrong thing. I am saying this is the democrats version of the supreme court overturning abortion rights. It feels good to do because of our ideology and tree of ethics, but this is a net-negative to essentially everything we want to accomplish. I think it is especially a net negative for the stated objective: decrease LGBTQ suffering.
This entire ordeal being a national hot topic forces politicians all across the country to comment on it, take a perspective on it, or whatever. And no matter what they say, I guarantee you they are not winning votes they didn't already have.
I am doing my best to come across as polite as possible, but please let me offer my honest perspective on what you are saying here: You are saying you don't really know how to improve the situation, but this feels like a nice thing to do, and since conservatives will find something to get mad about anyway, why not, may as well, since it generally fits the pro-LGBTQ ideology. It is vaguely supportive of LGBTQ folks and involves spreading awareness/information/education. I don't think you have shown why this is a net positive at all. I think you've just described why it is an ethical thing to support and that you don't have any better ideas. When we can easily point to the enormous, nation-wide push back we are seeing, and how effectively bigots are weaponizing this whole drag story time thing as radicalization fuel, the amount of benefit you have described is minuscule. It is just so, so, so much less than the negatives we are seeing plain as day.
You are not responsible or accountable for this dynamic. I don't want to give that impression. But I am trying to say I think the mistakes you appear to be making are the same mistakes I think democrats as a whole are making across the country. I think you are insufficiently examining the situation and insufficiently vetting drag story time as a mechanism for reducing LGBTQ suffering.
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As far as I knew, drag queens would do something like drag story time because it's something they want to do. Did I miss the part where they became an arm of the Democrat apparatus and need to be judged on what kind of social change they're effecting? Drag queens like performing and entertaining people, and for the record, a ton of that is non-sexual.
If the discussion is veering into the idea that being in drag is inherently sexual, that's an entire discussion that I will avoid entertaining because I find it absurd.
I would just say that if you haven't had a lot of exposure to drag queens and are interested in hearing something about their experiences besides the Republican attempt to hijack the narrative about them, and to get a better idea of what drag is really about, I highly recommend the show "We're Here" on HBO Max, or Max, or whatever the fuck it's gonna be called after that. It's entertaining, it's emotional, it's real, it's educational, and it depicts people in drag as the human beings they are.
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Let's say instead of drag queens, we invited strippers to library hour. Nothing sexual of the sort, supposedly, just strippers in stripper attire telling stories.
Surely using the same logic this should be supported and promoted, since we want to destigmatise sex workers.
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On April 17 2023 13:23 gobbledydook wrote:
Let's say instead of drag queens, we invited strippers to library hour. Nothing sexual of the sort, supposedly, just strippers in stripper attire telling stories.
Surely using the same logic this should be supported and promoted, since we want to destigmatise sex workers.
This is not a reasonable comparison. There is no reason to discuss this bad faith hypothetical when there is an actual topic already being discussed. Focus on the pros and cons of that situation
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United States44128 Posts
On April 17 2023 13:23 gobbledydook wrote:
Let's say instead of drag queens, we invited strippers to library hour. Nothing sexual of the sort, supposedly, just strippers in stripper attire telling stories.
Surely using the same logic this should be supported and promoted, since we want to destigmatise sex workers.
Stripping is sexual. It is done expressly for the purpose of titillation. Crossdressing for the entertainment of kids has a long and rich history.
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On April 17 2023 12:23 Falling wrote:
I don't know if it's that's simple when the drag queens themselves are in disagreement on whether it is sexual or not. I have seen some videos interviewing drag queens where they thought it was sexual in nature and didn't think library hour was especially helpful.
We are also living in a time where people will argue with a straight face that there is nothing whatsoever sexual about a woman being topless. Given that, you can imagine why people are more than a little suspicious on modern culture's general assessment on what is or is not sexual. Simply declaring that it is not is unlikely to get much traction.
Topless women not always being a sexual thing has been very normal in Germany for ages. For example in the FKK context, women being topless (or completely naked) is definitively not sexual. Or in a sauna. And a lot of women just sunbathe topless without it being a sexual thing here.
The US who make any appearance of female breasts sexual are the weird ones in this context.
And that is not "modern culture". FKK culture has been a thing in Germany since the early 1900s. (Source (sadly in German): https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Freikörperkultur#Geschichte)
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Norway28825 Posts
Ya in much of Europe there will be plenty contexts where women are topless and there's nothing sexual about it. Might well be that NA culture is sufficiently different for this to not really ever be the case over there, though, or that, at the very least, there'll always be an 'empowerment' angle.
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Sounds like Americans would be shocked if they visit a beach in Spain or any 18+ hotel around the mediterranean.
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On April 17 2023 16:50 Laurens wrote:
Sounds like Americans would be shocked if they visit a beach in Spain or any 18+ hotel around the mediterranean.
Topless women at beaches is actually less common now, but the reason is quite simple: if a person next to them snap a selfie next to them, they don't want their bare breasts to be forever on the internet.
I agree the US has a very strange relation to sex and naked bodies, especially considered they also have a giant porn industry.
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On April 17 2023 12:41 Mohdoo wrote:Show nested quote +On April 17 2023 11:27 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On April 17 2023 11:06 Mohdoo wrote:On April 17 2023 11:02 Gahlo wrote:On April 17 2023 10:52 Mohdoo wrote:On April 17 2023 10:49 KwarK wrote:
They'd just latch onto something else. That’s not what I’m focusing on or arguing. Are you saying you view drag story time as a net positive for the lives of LGBTQ people? Do you think it is an effective means of reducing hate and increasing empathy? Exposing kids to different groups when they're still generally more accepting of people different than them is easier then trying to cut through divisive teachings. I addressed this in my 2nd post. I think this is an ineffective and illogical approach to that. I think it definitely "reduces hate and increases empathy" for the next generation of schoolchildren as they grow up and realize that some of them will be part of the LGBTQ+ community (or different in other ways), but probably exacerbates the situation for anti-LGBTQ+ parents. I actually can't think of many alternative ways to help normalize these demographics where bigoted parents won't get triggered though. They want to cancel any person or company that wears a rainbow sticker ffs, so appeasing those people really isn't possible. As far as expending political capital on this issue goes, I don't know. We can support social issues while also supporting economic ones, so I don't see these sorts of situations as necessarily losing ones, as long as politicians aren't only running on a single issue like letting people in drag read stories in schools. If you don't mind, I'd like to zoom into some specific points here and better understand your perspective. When you say schoolchildren will grow up more tolerant from the experiences they have with drag story time, are you saying that children who otherwise would have been raised to be bigots will instead grow up empathetic and accepting of LGBTQ people? Since drag story time is something that parents bring their kids to, it is hard to imagine many of the kids attending are being raised by bigoted parents. I'd go so far as to say the kids who are being brought to drag story time are folks who are already living in progressive areas and being raised by progressive parents.
Which kids, in what circumstances, are you saying will now be given this new perspective that they will carry into adulthood and undo the bigotry that otherwise would have taken hold in their developing psyche? Are there conservative, anti-LGBTQ parents taking their kids to drag story time?
I was specifically thinking about kids in schools / assemblies and speakers at public schools. If there is a guest speaker at a school, the students would experience what that person wants to say / the identity of that person. Hypothetically, the conservative parents could purposely keep their children home from school that day, but some wouldn't. So it's not so much about conservatives voluntarily bringing their kids to drag story time, but rather kids separately being in an environment that includes drag story time.
We of course agree on the anti-LGBTQ parents getting even more radicalized by this, so no need to discuss that.
I am not saying we are spending time and energy on the wrong thing. I am saying this is the democrats version of the supreme court overturning abortion rights. It feels good to do because of our ideology and tree of ethics, but this is a net-negative to essentially everything we want to accomplish. I think it is especially a net negative for the stated objective: decrease LGBTQ suffering.
This entire ordeal being a national hot topic forces politicians all across the country to comment on it, take a perspective on it, or whatever. And no matter what they say, I guarantee you they are not winning votes they didn't already have.
I am doing my best to come across as polite as possible, but please let me offer my honest perspective on what you are saying here: You are saying you don't really know how to improve the situation, but this feels like a nice thing to do, and since conservatives will find something to get mad about anyway, why not, may as well, since it generally fits the pro-LGBTQ ideology. It is vaguely supportive of LGBTQ folks and involves spreading awareness/information/education. I don't think you have shown why this is a net positive at all. I think you've just described why it is an ethical thing to support and that you don't have any better ideas. When we can easily point to the enormous, nation-wide push back we are seeing, and how effectively bigots are weaponizing this whole drag story time thing as radicalization fuel, the amount of benefit you have described is minuscule. It is just so, so, so much less than the negatives we are seeing plain as day.
You are not responsible or accountable for this dynamic. I don't want to give that impression. But I am trying to say I think the mistakes you appear to be making are the same mistakes I think democrats as a whole are making across the country. I think you are insufficiently examining the situation and insufficiently vetting drag story time as a mechanism for reducing LGBTQ suffering.
What do you mean by "improve the situation"? Is the situation you're referring to "normalizing drag and LGBTQ+ communities for people who are neutral / blank slates, like children" or is it "convincing explicitly anti-drag / anti-LGBTQ+ people to be more accepting"? Because if it's the former, speaking with members of those communities is absolutely one great way to normalize different demographics. If it's the latter, the people who are aggressively anti-drag/LGBTQ+ are going to be less likely to change their perspective, and if they refuse to ever engage then there's not much to be done (we'd need to just let them and their ideology die out over time).
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On April 17 2023 13:23 gobbledydook wrote:
Let's say instead of drag queens, we invited strippers to library hour. Nothing sexual of the sort, supposedly, just strippers in stripper attire telling stories.
Surely using the same logic this should be supported and promoted, since we want to destigmatise sex workers.
Or let's not. You're changing the topic and saying you should be able to apply the same logic. I post that being in drag is not inherently sexual, and why that is, and you respond by literally swapping the discussion about drag queens with one about sex workers. There's no reason for me to engage with that.
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Norway28825 Posts
Where I am confused is in the sense that my impression is that drag and trans are pretty different groups, where drag is more about acting out a fantasy or just plain having fun, while for trans people it is an essential part of who they are.
So I mean, obviously the outrage is a combination of manufactured and indicative of being an all around hateful person depending on who is outraged, but isn't drag just as much a small sub-culture as it is an identity? Not that I'm opposed to teaching about subcultures, even giving coverage to small ones, but this seems more like having a lecture on death metal as part of music class than about creating acceptance of lgbtq. I mean, I mean this positively, but there's also an element of deliberate freakishness within the drag scene that trans people - who seem to desire being accepted as normal- might not even want to identify with. I know there's some overlap but I have the impression that only a small minority of trans people do drag, and that many who do drag aren't trans.
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DPB, since these quote chains can get excessive, I'm scaling it back
I was specifically thinking about kids in schools / assemblies and speakers at public schools. If there is a guest speaker at a school, the students would experience what that person wants to say / the identity of that person. Hypothetically, the conservative parents could purposely keep their children home from school that day, but some wouldn't. So it's not so much about conservatives voluntarily bringing their kids to drag story time, but rather kids separately being in an environment that includes drag story time.
What do you mean by "improve the situation"? Is the situation you're referring to "normalizing drag and LGBTQ+ communities for people who are neutral / blank slates, like children" or is it "convincing explicitly anti-drag / anti-LGBTQ+ people to be more accepting"? Because if it's the former, speaking with members of those communities is absolutely one great way to normalize different demographics. If it's the latter, the people who are aggressively anti-drag/LGBTQ+ are going to be less likely to change their perspective, and if they refuse to ever engage then there's not much to be done (we'd need to just let them and their ideology die out over time).
1) Are these drag things happening at schools right now? I didn't think they were, so correct me if I am wrong. I do agree that kids gaining empathy through experience is a good thing, but I still think this is simply not the right way to go about it. I feel like my time spent in school taught me about how some people are gay and some people aren't. Throw in some about "some people identify as the gender matching their body and some don't. Both are valid and we should treat them with respect just like anyone else" and we're good.
I think making this such a shoved in spectacle just isn't the right way to handle it. They are letting resentment of bigotry compel them to take a less elegant approach. The statistics around basically all kids regarding trans/gay stuff right now is super clear. We are just waiting for old bigots to die. This is not a Zoomer problem. It is a millennial and above problem.
We should be punishing hate crimes, fighting harder against hate groups, and spreading awareness. I grew up in a very progressive area and have never attended some kinda school-led drag show story time thing, so I am assuming this is a new thing. It feels like the wrong reaction.
2) Here is my definition of "improve the situation", which I am assuming to be the goal of drag story time: Increase the percentage of people who are non-bigoted and decrease violence and other unsavory behavior.
If you had to guess, would you say the buzz around drag story time has been a net positive or net negative for LGBTQ folks? Do you think the anti-bigot seeds being planted in children are outweighing the response to this stuff from bigots?
I can't emphasize enough how bad of an idea it is to try to fight bigotry by addressing a subject that is even slightly vaguely sexual (LGBTQ stuff is inherently sexual from an optics/culture perspective) through kids stuff. The backlash writes itself. It is just a really bad play. I am not a political/sociological operative, so I won't pretend I have all the right ideas, since its not my job, but from my arm chair, I can look at this situation and say with great confidence "this ain't it".
It is hard to see the way democrats have embraced drag story time as anything other than resentment/knee-jerk defiance of conservatives. Democrats need to take the L and move onto something else. Focus on emphasizing the issues with hate crimes, suicide, etc etc rather than these spectacles. These drag shows are not some component of the democrat national agenda, but it would be disengenuous for someone to say defense of drag story hour is not something being largely supported/defended by the left wing of the country. They need to do what they did with Latinx and drop it.
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On April 18 2023 02:03 Mohdoo wrote:DPB, since these quote chains can get excessive, I'm scaling it back Show nested quote +I was specifically thinking about kids in schools / assemblies and speakers at public schools. If there is a guest speaker at a school, the students would experience what that person wants to say / the identity of that person. Hypothetically, the conservative parents could purposely keep their children home from school that day, but some wouldn't. So it's not so much about conservatives voluntarily bringing their kids to drag story time, but rather kids separately being in an environment that includes drag story time.
What do you mean by "improve the situation"? Is the situation you're referring to "normalizing drag and LGBTQ+ communities for people who are neutral / blank slates, like children" or is it "convincing explicitly anti-drag / anti-LGBTQ+ people to be more accepting"? Because if it's the former, speaking with members of those communities is absolutely one great way to normalize different demographics. If it's the latter, the people who are aggressively anti-drag/LGBTQ+ are going to be less likely to change their perspective, and if they refuse to ever engage then there's not much to be done (we'd need to just let them and their ideology die out over time). 1) Are these drag things happening at schools right now? I didn't think they were, so correct me if I am wrong. I do agree that kids gaining empathy through experience is a good thing, but I still think this is simply not the right way to go about it. I feel like my time spent in school taught me about how some people are gay and some people aren't. Throw in some about "some people identify as the gender matching their body and some don't. Both are valid and we should treat them with respect just like anyone else" and we're good. I think making this such a shoved in spectacle just isn't the right way to handle it. They are letting resentment of bigotry compel them to take a less elegant approach. The statistics around basically all kids regarding trans/gay stuff right now is super clear. We are just waiting for old bigots to die. This is not a Zoomer problem. It is a millennial and above problem. We should be punishing hate crimes, fighting harder against hate groups, and spreading awareness. I grew up in a very progressive area and have never attended some kinda school-led drag show story time thing, so I am assuming this is a new thing. It feels like the wrong reaction.
These "drag things" are rarely happening anywhere; this is 99% fearmongering from conservatives. On occasion, there's apparently a story or two about something linking an adult in drag to a kid learning from them, but the "concern" is that the drag community is going to somehow manipulate the children into messing up their lives, very similar to the assertion that kids talking to gay people is going to "turn them gay". If it's a voluntary drag storytelling that parents want to bring their kids to, then there's no controversy whatsoever. I agree with you that we should be "punishing hate crimes, fighting harder against hate groups, and spreading awareness".
2) Here is my definition of "improve the situation", which I am assuming to be the goal of drag story time: Increase the percentage of people who are non-bigoted and decrease violence and other unsavory behavior.
If you had to guess, would you say the buzz around drag story time has been a net positive or net negative for LGBTQ folks? Do you think the anti-bigot seeds being planted in children are outweighing the response to this stuff from bigots?
I can't emphasize enough how bad of an idea it is to try to fight bigotry by addressing a subject that is even slightly vaguely sexual (LGBTQ stuff is inherently sexual from an optics/culture perspective) through kids stuff. The backlash writes itself. It is just a really bad play. I am not a political/sociological operative, so I won't pretend I have all the right ideas, since its not my job, but from my arm chair, I can look at this situation and say with great confidence "this ain't it".
It is hard to see the way democrats have embraced drag story time as anything other than resentment/knee-jerk defiance of conservatives. Democrats need to take the L and move onto something else. Focus on emphasizing the issues with hate crimes, suicide, etc etc rather than these spectacles. These drag shows are not some component of the democrat national agenda, but it would be disengenuous for someone to say defense of drag story hour is not something being largely supported/defended by the left wing of the country. They need to do what they did with Latinx and drop it.
I have no idea. Conversations about drag shows and drag storytelling might anger anti-drag people (who, as I said before, are going to pearl-clutch about anything anyway), but those same conversations might be a net positive for the drag community or people who don't know anything about the community. I agree that we also need to be having conversations about hate crimes, suicide, and everything else, but solutions to those include normalizing identities that have a stigma/taboo attached to them (such as being gay, trans, or interested in dressing in drag).
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