|
Now that we have a new thread, in order to ensure that this thread continues to meet TL standards and follows the proper guidelines, we will be enforcing the rules in the OP more strictly. Be sure to give them a complete and thorough read before posting! NOTE: When providing a source, please provide a very brief summary on what it's about and what purpose it adds to the discussion. The supporting statement should clearly explain why the subject is relevant and needs to be discussed. Please follow this rule especially for tweets.
Your supporting statement should always come BEFORE you provide the source.If you have any questions, comments, concern, or feedback regarding the USPMT, then please use this thread: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/website-feedback/510156-us-politics-thread |
On April 08 2023 00:34 Sermokala wrote:
"Disingenuous" twords the validity of charging trump with crimes just strikes me as accepting the status quo of presidents and politicians in general not being able to be charged with crimes as something that is either inevitable or preferable. I don't see how you can't take just a little bit of hope that getting the most obvious criminal politician behind bars would at least open the conversation to legitimate prosecutions of politicians going forward. The whole point of progress is fixing the past mistakes to make a better future.
Whats Disingenuous is whataboutising any and all actual steps forward or any and all steps taken by anyone and everyone who could possibly make those steps forward. Like do you want to make the world a better place or do you just want to make the world a worse place like the republicans? I've never seen you happy or hopeful for anything this whole time. Is there anything at all you can point to that you're genuinely happy about happening or hopeful that it'll make things better?
There is nothing that makes GH happy or hopeful. His sole goal isn't to find a solution, but to force someone else to do the work. And even then, the steps taken to make that solution possible won't be good enough for him and he'll bitch and moan about it some way or another. If he responds, it won't be a direct answer.
|
On April 08 2023 00:34 Sermokala wrote:
"Disingenuous" twords the validity of charging trump with crimes just strikes me as accepting the status quo of presidents and politicians in general not being able to be charged with crimes as something that is either inevitable or preferable. I don't see how you can't take just a little bit of hope that getting the most obvious criminal politician behind bars would at least open the conversation to legitimate prosecutions of politicians going forward. The whole point of progress is fixing the past mistakes to make a better future.
Whats Disingenuous is whataboutising any and all actual steps forward or any and all steps taken by anyone and everyone who could possibly make those steps forward. Like do you want to make the world a better place or do you just want to make the world a worse place like the republicans? I've never seen you happy or hopeful for anything this whole time. Is there anything at all you can point to that you're genuinely happy about happening or hopeful that it'll make things better?
"whataboutism" and what you're upset at me for aren't the same thing. Both you and Kwark had to make incorrect assumptions to failingly substantiate that accusation. If anything is whataboutism in defense of the status quo, it is the deflection of the politics that lead to Trump being prosecuted for roundabout campaign finance violations and Bush getting away with torture with clichés about US law and such.
I'd obviously argue I'm vociferously opposed to the status quo (while supporters of Democrats clearly are not).
Yes, I did say I think breaking the taboo about arresting former presidents is cool so I'm happy we've gotten over that hump. It's just disingenuous for people to keep pretending politics had nothing to do with why/how we got over it for Trump and this particular incident (hence the Bush context).
I believe we both want to make the world a better place, we just have different perspectives of what that means and how to go about it.
|
|
|
I don't see how this benefits Democrats politically. Getting rid of Trump without having to publicly oppose him and anger his fanatic followers would be nothing short of a deus ex machina for the GOP at this point.
I'm certain that, maybe with the exception of troglodytes like MTG, they all secretly want the charges to stick. He almost got Mike Pence and Lindsey Graham lynched for saying "no" to him and they're out there doing the "he's being politically persecuted" outrage dance while praying they never have to lick his boots again.
|
Yes, I did say I think breaking the taboo about arresting former presidents is cool so I'm happy we've gotten over that hump. It's just disingenuous for people to keep pretending politics had nothing to do with why/how we got over it for Trump and this particular incident (hence the Bush context).
Politics had to do with why Trump was not charges years ago, as you can't charge a sitting president. Politics is why all the pending cases against Trump take so long to prepare, they want to be absolutely sure they are right.
Politics is also why former presidents have not been charged before.
I think you are looking at this backwards.
|
On April 08 2023 04:08 Dan HH wrote:
I don't see how this benefits Democrats politically. Getting rid of Trump without having to publicly oppose him and anger his fanatic followers would be nothing short of a deus ex machina for the GOP at this point.
I'm certain that, maybe with the exception of troglodytes like MTG, they all secretly want the charges to stick. He almost got Mike Pence and Lindsey Graham lynched for saying "no" to him and they're out there doing the "he's being politically persecuted" outrage dance while praying they never have to lick his boots again.
If trump goes down on state crimes desantis can't pardon him yes but do you think trump will ever put the party above him and endorse someone else? If the GOP cut ties with trump do you think that his supporters will flock to the next man up? Even the slightest campaign to connect desantis to trump going to jail so he can be president will damage that paranoid qult base.
|
On April 09 2023 01:22 Sermokala wrote:Show nested quote +On April 08 2023 04:08 Dan HH wrote:
I don't see how this benefits Democrats politically. Getting rid of Trump without having to publicly oppose him and anger his fanatic followers would be nothing short of a deus ex machina for the GOP at this point.
I'm certain that, maybe with the exception of troglodytes like MTG, they all secretly want the charges to stick. He almost got Mike Pence and Lindsey Graham lynched for saying "no" to him and they're out there doing the "he's being politically persecuted" outrage dance while praying they never have to lick his boots again. If trump goes down on state crimes desantis can't pardon him yes but do you think trump will ever put the party above him and endorse someone else? If the GOP cut ties with trump do you think that his supporters will flock to the next man up? Even the slightest campaign to connect desantis to trump going to jail so he can be president will damage that paranoid qult base.
His endorsement would weigh something for primaries, but beyond that is it even something to covet? He lost the last time based purely on antipathy to him personally against a weak vanilla opponent with 0 enthusiastic support of his own. On the national stage they'll be fine without it, they just need to avoid an anti-endorsement.
Which is why I would not expect the GOP to cut ties with him officially, that's the beauty of this windfall, they can keep using his story to claim victimhood for conservatism as a whole while being glad he's out of the way (if it comes to that). And his supporters don't really have a choice but to vote anti-Dem as long as they don't perceive the GOP as betraying him, which they don't really have any reason to suspect.
|
On April 09 2023 21:26 Dan HH wrote:Show nested quote +On April 09 2023 01:22 Sermokala wrote:On April 08 2023 04:08 Dan HH wrote:
I don't see how this benefits Democrats politically. Getting rid of Trump without having to publicly oppose him and anger his fanatic followers would be nothing short of a deus ex machina for the GOP at this point.
I'm certain that, maybe with the exception of troglodytes like MTG, they all secretly want the charges to stick. He almost got Mike Pence and Lindsey Graham lynched for saying "no" to him and they're out there doing the "he's being politically persecuted" outrage dance while praying they never have to lick his boots again. If trump goes down on state crimes desantis can't pardon him yes but do you think trump will ever put the party above him and endorse someone else? If the GOP cut ties with trump do you think that his supporters will flock to the next man up? Even the slightest campaign to connect desantis to trump going to jail so he can be president will damage that paranoid qult base. His endorsement would weigh something for primaries, but beyond that is it even something to covet? He lost the last time based purely on antipathy to him personally against a weak vanilla opponent with 0 enthusiastic support of his own. On the national stage they'll be fine without it, they just need to avoid an anti-endorsement. Which is why I would not expect the GOP to cut ties with him officially, that's the beauty of this windfall, they can keep using his story to claim victimhood for conservatism as a whole while being glad he's out of the way (if it comes to that). And his supporters don't really have a choice but to vote anti-Dem as long as they don't perceive the GOP as betraying him, which they don't really have any reason to suspect.
Trump has massive base that they need to turn out for the gop nominee or they will have no chance at winning. If they cut ties with him he has no reason to ever stop attacking de santis or whoever in Congress. Elections in America are about turning out your base not on any ideals or enthusiasm.
They don't have a legitimate reason but these people are not following legitimate facts. They're the crazies who thought jfk was going to be ressurected and think trump is still president because there was an ambulance in the convoy they used to move trump in and out of New York.
|
Let's think of it in another way.
How bad would it be, if Trump got acquitted in the trial?
|
On April 10 2023 13:41 gobbledydook wrote:
Let's think of it in another way.
How bad would it be, if Trump got acquitted in the trial?
I don't think any of us here expect trump to not get acquitted. He's a billionaire in America -- let's get real for a minute.
|
On April 10 2023 13:41 gobbledydook wrote:
Let's think of it in another way.
How bad would it be, if Trump got acquitted in the trial?
This will be interesting. Does the GOP flip flop back to actually believing in the legitimacy of the courts that they didn't appoint judges to? Will they have to face why they have never been able to even charge hillary, obamna, or hunter biden? I mean you had multiple people in trumps circle post the picture of the judges daughter, how do you walk that back?
The satirical response would be "which one?" as hes going to be in multiple courts, the next one in april over rape charges, as well as any of the other crimes he may or may not have committed. Will the GOP support the justice system in those cases to find trump possibly not guilty?
|
On April 10 2023 21:29 EnDeR_ wrote:Show nested quote +On April 10 2023 13:41 gobbledydook wrote:
Let's think of it in another way.
How bad would it be, if Trump got acquitted in the trial? I don't think any of us here expect trump to not get acquitted. He's a billionaire in America -- let's get real for a minute.
I don't expect him to get acquitted, but I also don't expect him to see a single second inside a cell regardless of the verdict. He could be found guilty of every single charge laid against him over the next 10 years and I don't think it would matter.
He'd live out his days in house arrest in a penthouse somewhere.
|
On April 11 2023 07:05 Amui wrote:Show nested quote +On April 10 2023 21:29 EnDeR_ wrote:On April 10 2023 13:41 gobbledydook wrote:
Let's think of it in another way.
How bad would it be, if Trump got acquitted in the trial? I don't think any of us here expect trump to not get acquitted. He's a billionaire in America -- let's get real for a minute. I don't expect him to get acquitted, but I also don't expect him to see a single second inside a cell regardless of the verdict. He could be found guilty of every single charge laid against him over the next 10 years and I don't think it would matter. He'd live out his days in house arrest in a penthouse somewhere.
Biggest question is would this top him from running? Would they try to enforce some kind of "ban" on fundraising and doing anything remotely political? How to stop the grift?
|
On April 11 2023 07:52 ZerOCoolSC2 wrote:Show nested quote +On April 11 2023 07:05 Amui wrote:On April 10 2023 21:29 EnDeR_ wrote:On April 10 2023 13:41 gobbledydook wrote:
Let's think of it in another way.
How bad would it be, if Trump got acquitted in the trial? I don't think any of us here expect trump to not get acquitted. He's a billionaire in America -- let's get real for a minute. I don't expect him to get acquitted, but I also don't expect him to see a single second inside a cell regardless of the verdict. He could be found guilty of every single charge laid against him over the next 10 years and I don't think it would matter. He'd live out his days in house arrest in a penthouse somewhere. Biggest question is would this top him from running? Would they try to enforce some kind of "ban" on fundraising and doing anything remotely political? How to stop the grift?
You can run for president, and even serve as president, while inside jail. So don't expect this to change anything.
|
So, just to get this straight.
Being a convicted felon means you can't vote, while in prison or at any point after you get out.
But you can run in the elections you're not allowed to vote in, and even be president while locked up in a jail cell?
|
On April 11 2023 17:42 Mikau313 wrote:
So, just to get this straight.
Being a convicted felon means you can't vote, while in prison or at any point after you get out.
But you can run in the elections you're not allowed to vote in, and even be president while locked up in a jail cell? Yep, same applies to Congress as well.
|
You wouldn't be able to vote for yourself if you are jailed in a state that doesn't allow felons to vote.
But you can still become president.
|
So if you're in jail on state charges and get elected president, what happens? You can't pardon yourself, because state charges. The governor of that state could pardon you, but if he's not inclined to do so, what's next? The white house moves to jail?
|
Depending on how the trial goes, is there a world where Republicans would not nominate / vote for Trump. And if the republican does win the final race, whom ever it is, would Trump just get pardoned or refuse to go to trial.
|
On April 11 2023 19:57 Byo wrote:
Depending on how the trial goes, is there a world where Republicans would not nominate / vote for Trump. And if the republican does win the final race, whom ever it is, would Trump just get pardoned or refuse to go to trial.
If he's convicted of a felony he cannot run for president. If a republic wins the presidency he cannot pardon trump for state level crimes, that can only be done by the governor of New York. I don't know what you mean by refuse to go to trial but fleeing the county or going to Florida would be wild.
|
|
|
|
|
|
EPT
