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United States41963 Posts
On April 06 2023 08:10 Introvert wrote: He plead to the campaign finance charges because it was essentially free for both sides to do so And also because he did it and they had proof.
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On April 06 2023 08:34 KwarK wrote:Show nested quote +On April 06 2023 08:10 Introvert wrote: He plead to the campaign finance charges because it was essentially free for both sides to do so And also because he did it and they had proof.
I feel like you know this, but the debate is if what he did constitutes a crime. Not if he paid the two women. But feel free to skip past the entire question.
I myself have been somewhat heartened to see even lefty lawyers who hate Trump squirm when talking about what Bragg did. Maybe there's hope if the blatant-ness of this prosecution is too much even for them.
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On April 06 2023 10:33 JimmiC wrote:Show nested quote +On April 06 2023 08:47 Introvert wrote:On April 06 2023 08:34 KwarK wrote:On April 06 2023 08:10 Introvert wrote: He plead to the campaign finance charges because it was essentially free for both sides to do so And also because he did it and they had proof. I feel like you know this, but the debate is if what he did constitutes a crime. Not if he paid the two women. But feel free to skip past the entire question. I myself have been somewhat heartened to see even lefty lawyers who hate Trump squirm when talking about what Bragg did. Maybe there's hope if the blatant-ness of this prosecution is too much even for them. You think paying off people you slept with outside of the marriage with campaign funds should be legal? Is legal? Or he did not do it?
Cohen paid the women (with his own cash). Trump repaid him. Those facts are not in dispute, even by Trump. It's also not clearly illegal by itself (NDAs are legal). I guess people aren't reading anything actually posted or any questions asked in the thread when they don't even seem to understand the legal question here.
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On April 06 2023 14:32 Introvert wrote:Show nested quote +On April 06 2023 10:33 JimmiC wrote:On April 06 2023 08:47 Introvert wrote:On April 06 2023 08:34 KwarK wrote:On April 06 2023 08:10 Introvert wrote: He plead to the campaign finance charges because it was essentially free for both sides to do so And also because he did it and they had proof. I feel like you know this, but the debate is if what he did constitutes a crime. Not if he paid the two women. But feel free to skip past the entire question. I myself have been somewhat heartened to see even lefty lawyers who hate Trump squirm when talking about what Bragg did. Maybe there's hope if the blatant-ness of this prosecution is too much even for them. You think paying off people you slept with outside of the marriage with campaign funds should be legal? Is legal? Or he did not do it? Cohen paid the women (with his own cash). Trump repaid him. Those facts are not in dispute, even by Trump. It's also not clearly illegal by itself (NDAs are legal). I guess people aren't reading anything actually posted or any questions asked in the thread when they don't even seem to understand the legal question here.
I think you're the one who's misunderstanding here. JimmiC is trying to figure out what exactly your issue is here with the fact that these crimes are being prosecuted. He's asking those questions not because the facts of the case are unclear, but to understand what your exact position is.
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On April 06 2023 08:10 Introvert wrote:That payment was not why Cohen went to prison. His main charges were bank fraud. He plead to the campaign finance charges because it was essentially free for both sides to do so, he hoped it would work to his credit in sentencing (those charges by themselves would have added basically nothing to his overall punishment) and the prosecutor got another notch. The campaign finance "violation" wasn't adjudicated at all and no jury was involved in determination of guilt. I thought people knew this type of thing was common, but maybe not. Just like the the 34 charges bit, as if each one is really a unique event. actually there was another Andy McCarthy piece on this. If you want a perspective from somone who doesn't like Trump but isn't a Democrat politician I recommend him. + Show Spoiler +...
It has been amusing, then, to observe the Lawyer Left’s latest pushback against the inconvenience that Bragg’s campaign-finance allegation against Trump — which is critical to his crusade to inflate a time-barred, misdemeanor business-records infraction into a (maybe) barely live felony — is probably dead on arrival. We can be confident that there were two campaign-finance felonies, they tell us, because Cohen pled guilty to them in a prosecution brought by Trump’s own Justice Department.
Where to begin?
Obviously, if it were true that the judgment of the Justice Department and its notoriously aggressive SDNY prosecutors were dispositive, then the case against Trump should be considered closed right now. It’s not enough to say that the same prosecutors who squeezed the guilty pleas out of Cohen, and who were trying very hard to make a case against Trump, decided in the end that there was no case to bring. Beyond that, you may have heard that the Justice Department has been under new management since January 20, 2021. In the ensuing 27 months, although we know it is moving energetically to nail Trump on everything from the Capitol riot to the Mar-a-Lago classified documents, the Biden Justice Department has never alleged that Trump’s hush-money arrangements with porn star Stormy Daniels and Playboy model Karen McDougal constituted campaign-finance violations.
Ah, but then comes the Democrats’ rejoinder: Cohen himself admitted his guilt to these “crimes.” As legal eagle Adam Schiff puts it, prosecuting Trump for campaign-finance violations would merely be a matter of nailing the principal for the crimes that Cohen, his poor sap toady, has already acknowledged committing.
And who could be more of an authority on campaign finance than Cohen, right?
Please. First, even if this argument could be taken seriously (it can’t), federal campaign-finance laws operate differently depending on whether one is in the position of a donor of alleged in-kind contributions or of the candidate. The former is burdened by strict donation limits; the latter is not. Moreover, when the alleged in-kind contribution is not patently campaign-related — i.e., when it is earmarked for expenses the candidate would have even if there were no campaign, as opposed to traditional campaign expenses such as polling or ads — then the intent of the donor could well be very different from that of the candidate. Even if the donor is motivated to see the candidate prevail in the election (as Cohen clearly was, since he hoped a Trump presidency would become a gravy train for him), the candidate could be motivated by whatever drove him to take on the expenses in question (as Trump contends the nondisclosure agreements were to spare his wife, his family, and his reputation from humiliation — which, regardless of whether Trump is lying, is a common reason why people and businesses with a lot to lose enter into and pay dearly for NDAs).
Now, here’s why the Cohen-pled-guilty claim can’t be taken seriously.
While his apologists would like us to develop amnesia about this history, Cohen did not plead guilty in federal court because of campaign-finance violations, which were merely an opportunistic add-on. Cohen pled guilty because the SDNY had him dead-to-rights on serious fraud charges.
Cohen committed bank fraud in connection with a multimillion-dollar line of credit. Bank fraud carries a penalty of up to 30 years’ imprisonment. As the most severe offense he faced, it was the driver of the federal sentencing guidelines that would apply to his case. Cohen’s crimes were not sufficiently heinous that he was going to be sentenced to anything close to 30 years; but once a 30-year crime was in the mix, it didn’t much matter to his ultimate sentence whether he pled guilty to ten less-egregious offenses, no such offenses, or something in between.
In addition to the bank fraud, Cohen pled guilty to five counts of tax evasion, each carrying a potential five-year prison term. By the Justice Department’s description, these felonies involved over $4 million in unreported income. The evidence of what the SDNY called “The Tax Evasion Scheme” covered four years. If the case had ever gone to trial, that fraud scheme would have been the framework within which the SDNY unfolded its bank-fraud proof. That was the heart of the Cohen prosecution.
That is why Cohen pled guilty. He was looking at years of incarceration. And as is common when a suspect is in such straits, Cohen desperately sought to become a cooperating witness for the government. Why? Because under the federal sentencing guidelines, if the prosecutors can be persuaded to file a pre-sentencing motion attesting to the court that the defendant has provided substantial assistance in the investigation or prosecution of other suspects, especially suspects higher up in the food chain, the judge is then authorized to ignore the sentencing guidelines and impose a sentence of no jail time — or, at least, minimal jail time.
Cohen was trying to sell himself as a cooperator. But here’s the problem: The guy the prosecutors wanted to nail was Trump, and Trump was not complicit in any of the tax- and bank-fraud schemes at issue in Cohen’s case.
To the extent that Cohen was relevant, all the SDNY had on Trump were these hush-money arrangements. Since NDAs are not illegal, the question was how to transform them into crimes. The only way to do that, the creative SDNY prosecutors decided, was to invoke the campaign-finance laws. But to say that was a stretch is putting it mildly. The NDAs were not traditional campaign expenses. Yes, the women involved turned up the heat during the campaign, extortionately threatening to go public, which might have torpedoed Trump’s presidential bid in the wake of the infamous Access Hollywood tape. But this was just commonsense hardball, striking when their leverage against the notoriously parsimonious Trump was at its height; it didn’t mean that NDAs — which Trump had plenty of other personal, political, and business incentives to pay for — were necessarily in-kind campaign expenses.
On this, the law was not on the SDNY’s side. But the prosecutors did have Cohen over a barrel. So they held the carrot out to him, but made no firm promises: Plead guilty to two campaign-finance felonies (the Daniels and McDougal NDAs), implicate Trump in the underlying schemes, and they’d consider giving him a cooperation agreement.
It was a no-risk calculation on both sides. For Cohen, the campaign-finance counts, which carried five-year maximum sentences, involved amounts of money that were minor compared to the fraud counts. They would thus have no material impact on whatever sentence was imposed. More to the point, Cohen was trying to avoid prison all together, and this was his only shot at a cooperation agreement.
The SDNY, meanwhile, for case-building and public-relations purposes, would get Cohen, a key participant, to brand the scheme as a pair of campaign-finance felonies in which Trump was the main culprit; but the allegations would never be tested at trial because Cohen was pleading guilty. Even better, in pleading guilty, Cohen would also waive his right to appeal, so if the district court accepted his plea (which it did), the dubious campaign-finance counts would never be reviewed by the Second Circuit appellate court, let alone the Supreme Court.
In the end, the Cohen/SDNY deal went about as well as the Trump/Stormy deal. Cohen did not get his cooperation agreement (even after upping the ante by agreeing to plead to a perjury charge in the Mueller investigation) and was sentenced to three years’ imprisonment because of his frauds. He now claims the SDNY double-crossed him, and he has suddenly decided he wasn’t guilty after all of the tax-evasion charges to which he pled guilty — a posture that not only further weakens him as a prosecution witness for Bragg, but must also be a source of at least some embarrassment for those who now argue that the campaign-finance crimes were real because Cohen admitted to them when he pled guilty. https://www.nationalreview.com/2023/04/no-cohens-guilty-plea-does-not-prove-trump-committed-campaign-finance-crimes/
Cohen can not be trusted and is easy to attack, so they should not even press charges if the case hinged on him alone.
My question which I hope will be answered is that Trump obviously did some acrobatics to hide the payment and keep the story away from the public. How will he defend in court? Claim that the payment was not illegal anyway so it did not matter, or that he did not falsify the records after all?
In media, he will do his normal witch hunt routine. Even Norwegian papers are jumping on Easter metaphors now, with Trump being the victim🤦♂️
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On April 06 2023 10:33 JimmiC wrote:Show nested quote +On April 06 2023 08:47 Introvert wrote:On April 06 2023 08:34 KwarK wrote:On April 06 2023 08:10 Introvert wrote: He plead to the campaign finance charges because it was essentially free for both sides to do so And also because he did it and they had proof. I feel like you know this, but the debate is if what he did constitutes a crime. Not if he paid the two women. But feel free to skip past the entire question. I myself have been somewhat heartened to see even lefty lawyers who hate Trump squirm when talking about what Bragg did. Maybe there's hope if the blatant-ness of this prosecution is too much even for them. You think paying off people you slept with outside of the marriage with campaign funds should be legal? Is legal? Or he did not do it? No, that would be embezzlement and it has nothing to do with this process. Trump payed with his own money but tried to hide it by using campaign funds. That too is a crime ("mislabeling of business records" or something) but it only leads to actual prosecution if it is done in order to hide another crime. In this case the prosecutor is, if I understand it correctly, arguing that the bribe/extortion money is a campaign expense and it would exceed the limit allowed for that kind of expense. Furthermore, Trump made fake invoices to make it look more genuine (that's 33 of the 34 charges against him).
KwarK and BJ explained this on the last page.
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On April 06 2023 08:47 Introvert wrote:Show nested quote +On April 06 2023 08:34 KwarK wrote:On April 06 2023 08:10 Introvert wrote: He plead to the campaign finance charges because it was essentially free for both sides to do so And also because he did it and they had proof. I feel like you know this, but the debate is if what he did constitutes a crime. Not if he paid the two women. But feel free to skip past the entire question. I myself have been somewhat heartened to see even lefty lawyers who hate Trump squirm when talking about what Bragg did. Maybe there's hope if the blatant-ness of this prosecution is too much even for them. I see you still ignore the entire grand jury that recommended these charges in the first place.
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On April 06 2023 17:20 Gorsameth wrote:Show nested quote +On April 06 2023 08:47 Introvert wrote:On April 06 2023 08:34 KwarK wrote:On April 06 2023 08:10 Introvert wrote: He plead to the campaign finance charges because it was essentially free for both sides to do so And also because he did it and they had proof. I feel like you know this, but the debate is if what he did constitutes a crime. Not if he paid the two women. But feel free to skip past the entire question. I myself have been somewhat heartened to see even lefty lawyers who hate Trump squirm when talking about what Bragg did. Maybe there's hope if the blatant-ness of this prosecution is too much even for them. I see you still ignore the entire grand jury that recommended these charges in the first place.
A grand jury does not decide guilt. It only judges that there is probable cause, that is, it's likely that the defendant committed the crime. To be guilty, the charges must be proven beyond reasonable doubt, which is a much higher bar. So it is far too early to claim that Trump did commit a crime.
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On April 06 2023 17:50 gobbledydook wrote:Show nested quote +On April 06 2023 17:20 Gorsameth wrote:On April 06 2023 08:47 Introvert wrote:On April 06 2023 08:34 KwarK wrote:On April 06 2023 08:10 Introvert wrote: He plead to the campaign finance charges because it was essentially free for both sides to do so And also because he did it and they had proof. I feel like you know this, but the debate is if what he did constitutes a crime. Not if he paid the two women. But feel free to skip past the entire question. I myself have been somewhat heartened to see even lefty lawyers who hate Trump squirm when talking about what Bragg did. Maybe there's hope if the blatant-ness of this prosecution is too much even for them. I see you still ignore the entire grand jury that recommended these charges in the first place. A grand jury does not decide guilt. It only judges that there is probable cause, that is, it's possible that the defendant committed the crime. Yes but when your argument is that this is a rogue prosecutor inventing a case that has no merit the notion that it was a grand jury that found that there was sufficient probably cause is an inconvenient counter argument that the right would much rather ignore then address.
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On April 06 2023 17:56 Gorsameth wrote:Show nested quote +On April 06 2023 17:50 gobbledydook wrote:On April 06 2023 17:20 Gorsameth wrote:On April 06 2023 08:47 Introvert wrote:On April 06 2023 08:34 KwarK wrote:On April 06 2023 08:10 Introvert wrote: He plead to the campaign finance charges because it was essentially free for both sides to do so And also because he did it and they had proof. I feel like you know this, but the debate is if what he did constitutes a crime. Not if he paid the two women. But feel free to skip past the entire question. I myself have been somewhat heartened to see even lefty lawyers who hate Trump squirm when talking about what Bragg did. Maybe there's hope if the blatant-ness of this prosecution is too much even for them. I see you still ignore the entire grand jury that recommended these charges in the first place. A grand jury does not decide guilt. It only judges that there is probable cause, that is, it's possible that the defendant committed the crime. Yes but when your argument is that this is a rogue prosecutor inventing a case that has no merit the notion that it was a grand jury that found that there was sufficient probably cause is an inconvenient counter argument that the right would much rather ignore then address. Right. The grand jury isn't deciding guilt, they decided that this was a legitimate case. The allegation that Bragg is being reckless in bringing these charges attempts to minimize the fact that a grand jury already looked at the case and agreed that it had merit.
Let's not shift the goalposts.
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Does anyone know precedent for sentencing in cases like this? 33 falsify records charges and 1 misuse of campaign funds charge doesn’t seem like it would lead to significant jail time anyway, probably just white collar punishment of some fines, so the acrobatics Trump defenders are going through seems pointless. At the end of the day, if he still gets to run in 2024, no one’s mind is going to be changed on him by the results of this trial. Just another meaningless battle in the culture war.
Just let the law enforcement do their job.
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On April 06 2023 17:20 Gorsameth wrote:Show nested quote +On April 06 2023 08:47 Introvert wrote:On April 06 2023 08:34 KwarK wrote:On April 06 2023 08:10 Introvert wrote: He plead to the campaign finance charges because it was essentially free for both sides to do so And also because he did it and they had proof. I feel like you know this, but the debate is if what he did constitutes a crime. Not if he paid the two women. But feel free to skip past the entire question. I myself have been somewhat heartened to see even lefty lawyers who hate Trump squirm when talking about what Bragg did. Maybe there's hope if the blatant-ness of this prosecution is too much even for them. I see you still ignore the entire grand jury that recommended these charges in the first place.
Of course I do. The grand jury part of the legal process is about the least meaningful aspect. It's notoriously easy to get a grand jury to indict, there's no defense raised, no adversarial process, and grand jurors have only the DA (who wants the indictment) to explain the law to them, not a judge.
I'm surprised you aren't familiar with the saying that you could get a grand jury to indict a ham sandwich.
No, people are arguing over the facts of thr case which is totally wrong. There's no dispute over who paid whom or when. the entire question is if those payments were illegal in this narrow circumstance or if they weren't reported properly. Yet people are here assuming that IF the payments were made then they were illegal, which is backwards
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On April 06 2023 21:56 Introvert wrote:Show nested quote +On April 06 2023 17:20 Gorsameth wrote:On April 06 2023 08:47 Introvert wrote:On April 06 2023 08:34 KwarK wrote:On April 06 2023 08:10 Introvert wrote: He plead to the campaign finance charges because it was essentially free for both sides to do so And also because he did it and they had proof. I feel like you know this, but the debate is if what he did constitutes a crime. Not if he paid the two women. But feel free to skip past the entire question. I myself have been somewhat heartened to see even lefty lawyers who hate Trump squirm when talking about what Bragg did. Maybe there's hope if the blatant-ness of this prosecution is too much even for them. I see you still ignore the entire grand jury that recommended these charges in the first place. Of course I do. The grand jury part of the legal process is about the least meaningful aspect. It's notoriously easy to get a grand jury to indict, there's no defense raised, no adversarial process, and grand jurors have only the DA (who wants the indictment) to explain the law to them, not a judge. I'm surprised you aren't familiar with the saying that you could get a grand jury to indict a ham sandwich. No, people are arguing over the facts of thr case which is totally wrong. There's no dispute over who paid whom or when. the entire question is if those payments were illegal in this narrow circumstance or if they weren't reported properly. Yet people are here assuming that IF the payments were made then they were illegal, which is backwards Its easy to assume the payments were illegal when the man who made the payments plead guilty and is now a cooperating witness.
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United States41963 Posts
On April 06 2023 22:38 Gorsameth wrote:Show nested quote +On April 06 2023 21:56 Introvert wrote:On April 06 2023 17:20 Gorsameth wrote:On April 06 2023 08:47 Introvert wrote:On April 06 2023 08:34 KwarK wrote:On April 06 2023 08:10 Introvert wrote: He plead to the campaign finance charges because it was essentially free for both sides to do so And also because he did it and they had proof. I feel like you know this, but the debate is if what he did constitutes a crime. Not if he paid the two women. But feel free to skip past the entire question. I myself have been somewhat heartened to see even lefty lawyers who hate Trump squirm when talking about what Bragg did. Maybe there's hope if the blatant-ness of this prosecution is too much even for them. I see you still ignore the entire grand jury that recommended these charges in the first place. Of course I do. The grand jury part of the legal process is about the least meaningful aspect. It's notoriously easy to get a grand jury to indict, there's no defense raised, no adversarial process, and grand jurors have only the DA (who wants the indictment) to explain the law to them, not a judge. I'm surprised you aren't familiar with the saying that you could get a grand jury to indict a ham sandwich. No, people are arguing over the facts of thr case which is totally wrong. There's no dispute over who paid whom or when. the entire question is if those payments were illegal in this narrow circumstance or if they weren't reported properly. Yet people are here assuming that IF the payments were made then they were illegal, which is backwards Its easy to assume the payments were illegal when the man who made the payments plead guilty and is now a cooperating witness. Yeah but per introvert he only plead guilty out of an abundance of politeness and not because he did it. He probably would have been found innocent had he presented all the evidence of his innocence in a trial but he didn’t want to embarrass the prosecutor so he just went along with the guilty plea.
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I think we need to be clear: Cohen paid Stormy using some shell company. Trump repaid Cohen, his company logged the reimbursements as legal expenses, not the campaign. Those founds should have been logged in as campaign expenses/contribution because the whole point of the hush payment was to benefit political campaign.
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United States41963 Posts
On April 07 2023 02:36 lestye wrote: I think we need to be clear: Cohen paid Stormy using some shell company. Trump repaid Cohen, his company logged the reimbursements as legal expenses, not the campaign. Those founds should have been logged in as campaign expenses/contribution because the whole point of the hush payment was to benefit political campaign. Also they presumably should not have been booked as business legal expenses. They have him coming and going. Your company’s legal representation is not a company expense when he’s helping you pay your prostitutes unless those prostitutes were part of your business activities.
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