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On April 05 2023 07:05 StasisField wrote:Show nested quote +On April 05 2023 06:50 BlackJack wrote:On April 04 2023 11:10 StasisField wrote:On April 04 2023 10:36 King_Charles_III wrote:On April 04 2023 01:17 StasisField wrote:On April 03 2023 21:51 King_Charles_III wrote: Yeah the whole push to get trump put in jail is understandable but it's important to be level headed about it which I'm sorry to say one cannot expect from the democrats. The dems don't genuinely think that the stormy case is worthy of criminal charges, and we know that because they didn't bat an eye when the other 2016 presidential campaign got a civil fine only for the same scheme. The NYC based Clinton campaign concealed their funding of the Steele dossier, and didn't report it as campaign spending, by describing it in internal records as legal fees. In other words they covered up campaign spending by disguising it as legal fees. They got a civil fine for it, and it was a little blip in the news because no one genuinely thinks it's worthy of criminal charges.
Then there's the fact that with the indictment, the Manhattan DA is essentially trying to enforce federal law. Their theory involves upgrading the charge because a federal not state law was violated - even though states don't have the power to enforce federal law. Go to the DA's website and it says he enforces state law; go to the DOJ's website and it says they enforce federal law.
So yes, prosecute trump for the serious stuff but committed members of the democratic party cannot be trusted for a second to be in charge of this. They can't see their own overreach. You seem to be confused. First, the difference between the Clinton campaign and the Trump campaign is DA Alvin Bragg has found evidence that the payment to Stormy Daniels was done with the intent to commit another crime. That's why there are criminal felony charges. Second, a felony charge is not something that only a federal body like the DOJ can investigate and prosecute and I have no idea how you came to that conclusion. The states investigate and prosecute felony charges all the time. This isn't overreach where he's trying to prosecute Trump for a crime he doesn't even have the jurisdiction to charge him with. And finally, the Democratic Party is not in charge of the case. Joe Biden isn't calling Alvin Bragg for details on the case. Hakeem Jeffries doesn't have his own task force searching for evidence to relay to the DA's office. Quit repeating stupid shit like the Democrats are prosecuting Trump. They aren't. See there really isn't a meaningful distinction to be made between the Clinton and Trump campaign's schemes there. Both campaigns NYC based. Here are the steps common to both schemes: 1. Do some campaign spending that you want to keep secret by first paying the money to your lawyer and then having your lawyer pay the intended recipient. 2. Describe the transaction in your internal records as legal fees for legal advice. 3. Don't report the campaign spending to the FEC. Trump is nominally charged with #2, but the NY DA must prove a second crime to upgrade it to a felony (and thereby increase the penalties on the accused), and the second crime that the NY DA is enforcing here is a federal crime (#3). Yet we have proof positive that the NYC area prosecutors, and the wider democratic party, don't actually care about the whole scheme: they didn't care care at all about Hillary's scheme. BTW yes the NY DA is trying to enforce federal law here. It is only under federal law that failing to report federal campaign spending is a crime. That's not even to mention the possibility that trump wasn't doing "campaign spending" because he was instead trying to hide it from his wife or generally trying to hide it as a public figure. Stormy's choice to come forward right before the election, but Trump would pay her 130k at any time. As for overall democratic party bias, consider that the NYC area prosecutors are elected democrats, and that the overall democratic party is obsessively committed to the goal of putting Trump in jail. If you want proof of that, go turn on MSNBC or CNN, go on Twitter, or go on any news outlet you deem to be reliable. It's the top narrative since 2017: the walls are closing in. Demonstrably selective prosecutions like what the NY DA is pursuing are really closely in line with this overall democratic party bias. That's why I say things are being taken too far. Just wait for Jack Smith, he's coming with the real crimes. Or if you're in get trump at all costs camp, I guess the NY DA has the utility of making it harder for trump to defend the real crimes. Which is a real utility, if you're in that camp. Except there is a meaningful distinction. That's why the Clinton Campaign got a fine and Trump is looking at felony charges. You can pretend there isn't a distinction but there is. You can ignore the catch and kill conspiracy that Trump, David Pecker, and Michael Cohen engaged in but the law certainly won't. They aren't charging Trump with failing to report federal campaign spending. They are charging him with falsifying business records which is a crime in the state of New York and they are also presumably charging him with a conspiracy charge, and because the falsification of business records was done to cover up the conspiracy, it is a felony. It might not be a conspiracy charge though, it might be some other crime, we'll know exactly what the 34th charge is tomorrow though. You keep saying factually wrong things about the case. Maybe you should read up on it before your next post? And again, we know that Trump, David Pecker, and Michael Cohen met and conspired to kill stories that could harm Trump's Presidential campaign and that they also falsified business records to cover up what the money was used for. We know this. Both David Pecker and Michael Cohen have confessed to this. Michael Cohen went to prison for this and David Pecker received transactional immunity for his testimony related to this. Yes, the Democrats are frothing at the mouth to put Trump away! That's why there are cases in every state and Trump is being thrown indictments every day since he got out! Just fucking stop. The persecution complex is embarrassing. The Democratic Party doesn't like Trump and many people would like to see Trump face justice, but the party has spent considerably less time obsessing with this indictment compared to the Republican Party, the party that is, by the way, spending all their energy on Trump, drag queens, and trans kids instead of proposing a budget and addressing the debt ceiling or addressing mass shootings or addressing climate change or addressing homelessness or addressing wage stagnation or addressing... you get the idea. Also, I couldn't give a shit what a news outlet says or how much time they spend covering Trump's criminal investigations. A news outlet is not the Democratic Party. They aren't demonstrably selective prosecutions and Trump isn't being treated unfairly. There are real, significant differences to what Trump did and what the Clinton campaign did and pretending there isn't doesn't make those differences go away. And if anything, Trump is being treated with kid gloves by our judicial system because he's an ex-President. Just to give an example, Trump won't have to stay in the state of New York after he's arraigned, he won't be handcuffed, and he might not even have to take a mug shot or if he does it'll probably be sealed. Also, we want to talk about party bias on this issue? The Republicans are frothing at the mouth even though they don't even know the facts of the case, and the justice department under Bill Barr asked for Cyrus Vance, the previous Manhattan DA, to stop the investigation into Trump. Can you clarify what are the real and significant differences between what Trump is accused of and what King Charles alleges Hillary did? You can read my post again.
Ok now what? The only significant difference I can see is the mention of conspiracy but as far as I can tell there weren’t even any conspiracy charges in the indictment
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On April 05 2023 07:32 BlackJack wrote:Show nested quote +On April 05 2023 07:05 StasisField wrote:On April 05 2023 06:50 BlackJack wrote:On April 04 2023 11:10 StasisField wrote:On April 04 2023 10:36 King_Charles_III wrote:On April 04 2023 01:17 StasisField wrote:On April 03 2023 21:51 King_Charles_III wrote: Yeah the whole push to get trump put in jail is understandable but it's important to be level headed about it which I'm sorry to say one cannot expect from the democrats. The dems don't genuinely think that the stormy case is worthy of criminal charges, and we know that because they didn't bat an eye when the other 2016 presidential campaign got a civil fine only for the same scheme. The NYC based Clinton campaign concealed their funding of the Steele dossier, and didn't report it as campaign spending, by describing it in internal records as legal fees. In other words they covered up campaign spending by disguising it as legal fees. They got a civil fine for it, and it was a little blip in the news because no one genuinely thinks it's worthy of criminal charges.
Then there's the fact that with the indictment, the Manhattan DA is essentially trying to enforce federal law. Their theory involves upgrading the charge because a federal not state law was violated - even though states don't have the power to enforce federal law. Go to the DA's website and it says he enforces state law; go to the DOJ's website and it says they enforce federal law.
So yes, prosecute trump for the serious stuff but committed members of the democratic party cannot be trusted for a second to be in charge of this. They can't see their own overreach. You seem to be confused. First, the difference between the Clinton campaign and the Trump campaign is DA Alvin Bragg has found evidence that the payment to Stormy Daniels was done with the intent to commit another crime. That's why there are criminal felony charges. Second, a felony charge is not something that only a federal body like the DOJ can investigate and prosecute and I have no idea how you came to that conclusion. The states investigate and prosecute felony charges all the time. This isn't overreach where he's trying to prosecute Trump for a crime he doesn't even have the jurisdiction to charge him with. And finally, the Democratic Party is not in charge of the case. Joe Biden isn't calling Alvin Bragg for details on the case. Hakeem Jeffries doesn't have his own task force searching for evidence to relay to the DA's office. Quit repeating stupid shit like the Democrats are prosecuting Trump. They aren't. See there really isn't a meaningful distinction to be made between the Clinton and Trump campaign's schemes there. Both campaigns NYC based. Here are the steps common to both schemes: 1. Do some campaign spending that you want to keep secret by first paying the money to your lawyer and then having your lawyer pay the intended recipient. 2. Describe the transaction in your internal records as legal fees for legal advice. 3. Don't report the campaign spending to the FEC. Trump is nominally charged with #2, but the NY DA must prove a second crime to upgrade it to a felony (and thereby increase the penalties on the accused), and the second crime that the NY DA is enforcing here is a federal crime (#3). Yet we have proof positive that the NYC area prosecutors, and the wider democratic party, don't actually care about the whole scheme: they didn't care care at all about Hillary's scheme. BTW yes the NY DA is trying to enforce federal law here. It is only under federal law that failing to report federal campaign spending is a crime. That's not even to mention the possibility that trump wasn't doing "campaign spending" because he was instead trying to hide it from his wife or generally trying to hide it as a public figure. Stormy's choice to come forward right before the election, but Trump would pay her 130k at any time. As for overall democratic party bias, consider that the NYC area prosecutors are elected democrats, and that the overall democratic party is obsessively committed to the goal of putting Trump in jail. If you want proof of that, go turn on MSNBC or CNN, go on Twitter, or go on any news outlet you deem to be reliable. It's the top narrative since 2017: the walls are closing in. Demonstrably selective prosecutions like what the NY DA is pursuing are really closely in line with this overall democratic party bias. That's why I say things are being taken too far. Just wait for Jack Smith, he's coming with the real crimes. Or if you're in get trump at all costs camp, I guess the NY DA has the utility of making it harder for trump to defend the real crimes. Which is a real utility, if you're in that camp. Except there is a meaningful distinction. That's why the Clinton Campaign got a fine and Trump is looking at felony charges. You can pretend there isn't a distinction but there is. You can ignore the catch and kill conspiracy that Trump, David Pecker, and Michael Cohen engaged in but the law certainly won't. They aren't charging Trump with failing to report federal campaign spending. They are charging him with falsifying business records which is a crime in the state of New York and they are also presumably charging him with a conspiracy charge, and because the falsification of business records was done to cover up the conspiracy, it is a felony. It might not be a conspiracy charge though, it might be some other crime, we'll know exactly what the 34th charge is tomorrow though. You keep saying factually wrong things about the case. Maybe you should read up on it before your next post? And again, we know that Trump, David Pecker, and Michael Cohen met and conspired to kill stories that could harm Trump's Presidential campaign and that they also falsified business records to cover up what the money was used for. We know this. Both David Pecker and Michael Cohen have confessed to this. Michael Cohen went to prison for this and David Pecker received transactional immunity for his testimony related to this. Yes, the Democrats are frothing at the mouth to put Trump away! That's why there are cases in every state and Trump is being thrown indictments every day since he got out! Just fucking stop. The persecution complex is embarrassing. The Democratic Party doesn't like Trump and many people would like to see Trump face justice, but the party has spent considerably less time obsessing with this indictment compared to the Republican Party, the party that is, by the way, spending all their energy on Trump, drag queens, and trans kids instead of proposing a budget and addressing the debt ceiling or addressing mass shootings or addressing climate change or addressing homelessness or addressing wage stagnation or addressing... you get the idea. Also, I couldn't give a shit what a news outlet says or how much time they spend covering Trump's criminal investigations. A news outlet is not the Democratic Party. They aren't demonstrably selective prosecutions and Trump isn't being treated unfairly. There are real, significant differences to what Trump did and what the Clinton campaign did and pretending there isn't doesn't make those differences go away. And if anything, Trump is being treated with kid gloves by our judicial system because he's an ex-President. Just to give an example, Trump won't have to stay in the state of New York after he's arraigned, he won't be handcuffed, and he might not even have to take a mug shot or if he does it'll probably be sealed. Also, we want to talk about party bias on this issue? The Republicans are frothing at the mouth even though they don't even know the facts of the case, and the justice department under Bill Barr asked for Cyrus Vance, the previous Manhattan DA, to stop the investigation into Trump. Can you clarify what are the real and significant differences between what Trump is accused of and what King Charles alleges Hillary did? You can read my post again. Ok now what? The only significant difference I can see is the mention of conspiracy but as far as I can tell there weren’t even any conspiracy charges in the indictment You'll get as much clarification from me as I get from you. Which is to say none. You can figure it out on your own.
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On April 04 2023 11:10 StasisField wrote:Show nested quote +On April 04 2023 10:36 King_Charles_III wrote:On April 04 2023 01:17 StasisField wrote:On April 03 2023 21:51 King_Charles_III wrote: Yeah the whole push to get trump put in jail is understandable but it's important to be level headed about it which I'm sorry to say one cannot expect from the democrats. The dems don't genuinely think that the stormy case is worthy of criminal charges, and we know that because they didn't bat an eye when the other 2016 presidential campaign got a civil fine only for the same scheme. The NYC based Clinton campaign concealed their funding of the Steele dossier, and didn't report it as campaign spending, by describing it in internal records as legal fees. In other words they covered up campaign spending by disguising it as legal fees. They got a civil fine for it, and it was a little blip in the news because no one genuinely thinks it's worthy of criminal charges.
Then there's the fact that with the indictment, the Manhattan DA is essentially trying to enforce federal law. Their theory involves upgrading the charge because a federal not state law was violated - even though states don't have the power to enforce federal law. Go to the DA's website and it says he enforces state law; go to the DOJ's website and it says they enforce federal law.
So yes, prosecute trump for the serious stuff but committed members of the democratic party cannot be trusted for a second to be in charge of this. They can't see their own overreach. You seem to be confused. First, the difference between the Clinton campaign and the Trump campaign is DA Alvin Bragg has found evidence that the payment to Stormy Daniels was done with the intent to commit another crime. That's why there are criminal felony charges. Second, a felony charge is not something that only a federal body like the DOJ can investigate and prosecute and I have no idea how you came to that conclusion. The states investigate and prosecute felony charges all the time. This isn't overreach where he's trying to prosecute Trump for a crime he doesn't even have the jurisdiction to charge him with. And finally, the Democratic Party is not in charge of the case. Joe Biden isn't calling Alvin Bragg for details on the case. Hakeem Jeffries doesn't have his own task force searching for evidence to relay to the DA's office. Quit repeating stupid shit like the Democrats are prosecuting Trump. They aren't. See there really isn't a meaningful distinction to be made between the Clinton and Trump campaign's schemes there. Both campaigns NYC based. Here are the steps common to both schemes: 1. Do some campaign spending that you want to keep secret by first paying the money to your lawyer and then having your lawyer pay the intended recipient. 2. Describe the transaction in your internal records as legal fees for legal advice. 3. Don't report the campaign spending to the FEC. Trump is nominally charged with #2, but the NY DA must prove a second crime to upgrade it to a felony (and thereby increase the penalties on the accused), and the second crime that the NY DA is enforcing here is a federal crime (#3). Yet we have proof positive that the NYC area prosecutors, and the wider democratic party, don't actually care about the whole scheme: they didn't care care at all about Hillary's scheme. BTW yes the NY DA is trying to enforce federal law here. It is only under federal law that failing to report federal campaign spending is a crime. That's not even to mention the possibility that trump wasn't doing "campaign spending" because he was instead trying to hide it from his wife or generally trying to hide it as a public figure. Stormy's choice to come forward right before the election, but Trump would pay her 130k at any time. As for overall democratic party bias, consider that the NYC area prosecutors are elected democrats, and that the overall democratic party is obsessively committed to the goal of putting Trump in jail. If you want proof of that, go turn on MSNBC or CNN, go on Twitter, or go on any news outlet you deem to be reliable. It's the top narrative since 2017: the walls are closing in. Demonstrably selective prosecutions like what the NY DA is pursuing are really closely in line with this overall democratic party bias. That's why I say things are being taken too far. Just wait for Jack Smith, he's coming with the real crimes. Or if you're in get trump at all costs camp, I guess the NY DA has the utility of making it harder for trump to defend the real crimes. Which is a real utility, if you're in that camp. Except there is a meaningful distinction. That's why the Clinton Campaign got a fine and Trump is looking at felony charges. You can pretend there isn't a distinction but there is. You can ignore the catch and kill conspiracy that Trump, David Pecker, and Michael Cohen engaged in but the law certainly won't. They aren't charging Trump with failing to report federal campaign spending. They are charging him with falsifying business records which is a crime in the state of New York and they are also presumably charging him with a conspiracy charge, and because the falsification of business records was done to cover up the conspiracy, it is a felony. It might not be a conspiracy charge though, it might be some other crime, we'll know exactly what the 34th charge is tomorrow though. You keep saying factually wrong things about the case. Maybe you should read up on it before your next post? And again, we know that Trump, David Pecker, and Michael Cohen met and conspired to kill stories that could harm Trump's Presidential campaign and that they also falsified business records to cover up what the money was used for. We know this. Both David Pecker and Michael Cohen have confessed to this. Michael Cohen went to prison for this and David Pecker received transactional immunity for his testimony related to this. Yes, the Democrats are frothing at the mouth to put Trump away! That's why there are cases in every state and Trump is being thrown indictments every day since he got out! Just fucking stop. The persecution complex is embarrassing. The Democratic Party doesn't like Trump and many people would like to see Trump face justice, but the party has spent considerably less time obsessing with this indictment compared to the Republican Party, the party that is, by the way, spending all their energy on Trump, drag queens, and trans kids instead of proposing a budget and addressing the debt ceiling or addressing mass shootings or addressing climate change or addressing homelessness or addressing wage stagnation or addressing... you get the idea. Also, I couldn't give a shit what a news outlet says or how much time they spend covering Trump's criminal investigations. A news outlet is not the Democratic Party. They aren't demonstrably selective prosecutions and Trump isn't being treated unfairly. There are real, significant differences to what Trump did and what the Clinton campaign did and pretending there isn't doesn't make those differences go away. And if anything, Trump is being treated with kid gloves by our judicial system because he's an ex-President. Just to give an example, Trump won't have to stay in the state of New York after he's arraigned, he won't be handcuffed, and he might not even have to take a mug shot or if he does it'll probably be sealed. Also, we want to talk about party bias on this issue? The Republicans are frothing at the mouth even though they don't even know the facts of the case, and the justice department under Bill Barr asked for Cyrus Vance, the previous Manhattan DA, to stop the investigation into Trump.
You really didn't establish a meaningful distinction. Is a "catch and kill conspiracy" worse than covering up a campaign's funding of an opposition research project so that the oppo research can be injected into the media and the FBI without the campaign's fingerprints? The two schemes are substantively the same: conceal campaign spending by recording it in internal records as legal fees. It's worthy of a civil fine only. If two presidential campaigns did it in the same year in the same state, it's just silly for only one of them to be charged.
Since early 2017, the dems' information environment has been constantly saturated with the notion that trump must be put in jail. All I'm saying is that people are taking it too far. Just wait for Jack Smith - it's perfectly fine to wait for the real stuff and call out the overreach. Remember when Michael Avenatti showed up in the middle of the Kavanaugh stuff with a new but overreaching accusation? It undermined the other accusation(s).
Funnily enough, the unsealed documents today don't even specify what the second crime that trump committed is. So it could be that the second crime is not a federal one. But I guess the NY DA doesn't think the defendant is entitled to know what he's accused of.
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On April 05 2023 08:48 King_Charles_III wrote:Show nested quote +On April 04 2023 11:10 StasisField wrote:On April 04 2023 10:36 King_Charles_III wrote:On April 04 2023 01:17 StasisField wrote:On April 03 2023 21:51 King_Charles_III wrote: Yeah the whole push to get trump put in jail is understandable but it's important to be level headed about it which I'm sorry to say one cannot expect from the democrats. The dems don't genuinely think that the stormy case is worthy of criminal charges, and we know that because they didn't bat an eye when the other 2016 presidential campaign got a civil fine only for the same scheme. The NYC based Clinton campaign concealed their funding of the Steele dossier, and didn't report it as campaign spending, by describing it in internal records as legal fees. In other words they covered up campaign spending by disguising it as legal fees. They got a civil fine for it, and it was a little blip in the news because no one genuinely thinks it's worthy of criminal charges.
Then there's the fact that with the indictment, the Manhattan DA is essentially trying to enforce federal law. Their theory involves upgrading the charge because a federal not state law was violated - even though states don't have the power to enforce federal law. Go to the DA's website and it says he enforces state law; go to the DOJ's website and it says they enforce federal law.
So yes, prosecute trump for the serious stuff but committed members of the democratic party cannot be trusted for a second to be in charge of this. They can't see their own overreach. You seem to be confused. First, the difference between the Clinton campaign and the Trump campaign is DA Alvin Bragg has found evidence that the payment to Stormy Daniels was done with the intent to commit another crime. That's why there are criminal felony charges. Second, a felony charge is not something that only a federal body like the DOJ can investigate and prosecute and I have no idea how you came to that conclusion. The states investigate and prosecute felony charges all the time. This isn't overreach where he's trying to prosecute Trump for a crime he doesn't even have the jurisdiction to charge him with. And finally, the Democratic Party is not in charge of the case. Joe Biden isn't calling Alvin Bragg for details on the case. Hakeem Jeffries doesn't have his own task force searching for evidence to relay to the DA's office. Quit repeating stupid shit like the Democrats are prosecuting Trump. They aren't. See there really isn't a meaningful distinction to be made between the Clinton and Trump campaign's schemes there. Both campaigns NYC based. Here are the steps common to both schemes: 1. Do some campaign spending that you want to keep secret by first paying the money to your lawyer and then having your lawyer pay the intended recipient. 2. Describe the transaction in your internal records as legal fees for legal advice. 3. Don't report the campaign spending to the FEC. Trump is nominally charged with #2, but the NY DA must prove a second crime to upgrade it to a felony (and thereby increase the penalties on the accused), and the second crime that the NY DA is enforcing here is a federal crime (#3). Yet we have proof positive that the NYC area prosecutors, and the wider democratic party, don't actually care about the whole scheme: they didn't care care at all about Hillary's scheme. BTW yes the NY DA is trying to enforce federal law here. It is only under federal law that failing to report federal campaign spending is a crime. That's not even to mention the possibility that trump wasn't doing "campaign spending" because he was instead trying to hide it from his wife or generally trying to hide it as a public figure. Stormy's choice to come forward right before the election, but Trump would pay her 130k at any time. As for overall democratic party bias, consider that the NYC area prosecutors are elected democrats, and that the overall democratic party is obsessively committed to the goal of putting Trump in jail. If you want proof of that, go turn on MSNBC or CNN, go on Twitter, or go on any news outlet you deem to be reliable. It's the top narrative since 2017: the walls are closing in. Demonstrably selective prosecutions like what the NY DA is pursuing are really closely in line with this overall democratic party bias. That's why I say things are being taken too far. Just wait for Jack Smith, he's coming with the real crimes. Or if you're in get trump at all costs camp, I guess the NY DA has the utility of making it harder for trump to defend the real crimes. Which is a real utility, if you're in that camp. Except there is a meaningful distinction. That's why the Clinton Campaign got a fine and Trump is looking at felony charges. You can pretend there isn't a distinction but there is. You can ignore the catch and kill conspiracy that Trump, David Pecker, and Michael Cohen engaged in but the law certainly won't. They aren't charging Trump with failing to report federal campaign spending. They are charging him with falsifying business records which is a crime in the state of New York and they are also presumably charging him with a conspiracy charge, and because the falsification of business records was done to cover up the conspiracy, it is a felony. It might not be a conspiracy charge though, it might be some other crime, we'll know exactly what the 34th charge is tomorrow though. You keep saying factually wrong things about the case. Maybe you should read up on it before your next post? And again, we know that Trump, David Pecker, and Michael Cohen met and conspired to kill stories that could harm Trump's Presidential campaign and that they also falsified business records to cover up what the money was used for. We know this. Both David Pecker and Michael Cohen have confessed to this. Michael Cohen went to prison for this and David Pecker received transactional immunity for his testimony related to this. Yes, the Democrats are frothing at the mouth to put Trump away! That's why there are cases in every state and Trump is being thrown indictments every day since he got out! Just fucking stop. The persecution complex is embarrassing. The Democratic Party doesn't like Trump and many people would like to see Trump face justice, but the party has spent considerably less time obsessing with this indictment compared to the Republican Party, the party that is, by the way, spending all their energy on Trump, drag queens, and trans kids instead of proposing a budget and addressing the debt ceiling or addressing mass shootings or addressing climate change or addressing homelessness or addressing wage stagnation or addressing... you get the idea. Also, I couldn't give a shit what a news outlet says or how much time they spend covering Trump's criminal investigations. A news outlet is not the Democratic Party. They aren't demonstrably selective prosecutions and Trump isn't being treated unfairly. There are real, significant differences to what Trump did and what the Clinton campaign did and pretending there isn't doesn't make those differences go away. And if anything, Trump is being treated with kid gloves by our judicial system because he's an ex-President. Just to give an example, Trump won't have to stay in the state of New York after he's arraigned, he won't be handcuffed, and he might not even have to take a mug shot or if he does it'll probably be sealed. Also, we want to talk about party bias on this issue? The Republicans are frothing at the mouth even though they don't even know the facts of the case, and the justice department under Bill Barr asked for Cyrus Vance, the previous Manhattan DA, to stop the investigation into Trump. You really didn't establish a meaningful distinction. Is a "catch and kill conspiracy" worse than covering up a campaign's funding of an opposition research project so that the oppo research can be injected into the media and the FBI without the campaign's fingerprints? The two schemes are substantively the same: conceal campaign spending by recording it in internal records as legal fees. It's worthy of a civil fine only. If two presidential campaigns did it in the same year in the same state, it's just silly for only one of them to be charged. Since early 2017, the dems' information environment has been constantly saturated with the notion that trump must be put in jail. All I'm saying is that people are taking it too far. Just wait for Jack Smith - it's perfectly fine to wait for the real stuff and call out the overreach. Remember when Michael Avenatti showed up in the middle of the Kavanaugh stuff with a new but overreaching accusation? It undermined the other accusation(s). Funnily enough, the unsealed documents today don't even specify what the second crime that trump committed is. So it could be that the second crime is not a federal one. But I guess the NY DA doesn't think the defendant is entitled to know what he's accused of. Do I think both of them covering up payments is just as bad? In a vacuum, yes but there is a meaningful distinction between the two. The Clinton Campaign paid for opposition research, something every politician does and is not a crime. That opposition research was leaked and there has been no proof the Clinton Campaign leaked it to the press. Again, they didn't commit a crime. Donald Trump, however, falsified his business records to commit and conceal other crimes. You can pretend committing and concealing additional crimes isn't a meaningful distinction but the law certainly won't.
And this isn't overreach no matter how much you want to say it is. He broke the law to influence the outcome of the election and commit and cover up additional crimes. He should be prosecuted and he is being prosecuted.
And maybe you should watch Alvin Bragg's press conference. He literally says that the catch and kill scheme "violated New York election law which makes it a crime to conspire to promote a candidate by unlawful means, the $130,000 wire payment exceeded the federal campaign contribution cap, and the false statements in AMI's books violated New York law." Yeah, he's really hiding it from Trump, truly. He's hiding it so well that he announced it to the whole world earlier today.
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On April 05 2023 09:18 StasisField wrote:Show nested quote +On April 05 2023 08:48 King_Charles_III wrote:On April 04 2023 11:10 StasisField wrote:On April 04 2023 10:36 King_Charles_III wrote:On April 04 2023 01:17 StasisField wrote:On April 03 2023 21:51 King_Charles_III wrote: Yeah the whole push to get trump put in jail is understandable but it's important to be level headed about it which I'm sorry to say one cannot expect from the democrats. The dems don't genuinely think that the stormy case is worthy of criminal charges, and we know that because they didn't bat an eye when the other 2016 presidential campaign got a civil fine only for the same scheme. The NYC based Clinton campaign concealed their funding of the Steele dossier, and didn't report it as campaign spending, by describing it in internal records as legal fees. In other words they covered up campaign spending by disguising it as legal fees. They got a civil fine for it, and it was a little blip in the news because no one genuinely thinks it's worthy of criminal charges.
Then there's the fact that with the indictment, the Manhattan DA is essentially trying to enforce federal law. Their theory involves upgrading the charge because a federal not state law was violated - even though states don't have the power to enforce federal law. Go to the DA's website and it says he enforces state law; go to the DOJ's website and it says they enforce federal law.
So yes, prosecute trump for the serious stuff but committed members of the democratic party cannot be trusted for a second to be in charge of this. They can't see their own overreach. You seem to be confused. First, the difference between the Clinton campaign and the Trump campaign is DA Alvin Bragg has found evidence that the payment to Stormy Daniels was done with the intent to commit another crime. That's why there are criminal felony charges. Second, a felony charge is not something that only a federal body like the DOJ can investigate and prosecute and I have no idea how you came to that conclusion. The states investigate and prosecute felony charges all the time. This isn't overreach where he's trying to prosecute Trump for a crime he doesn't even have the jurisdiction to charge him with. And finally, the Democratic Party is not in charge of the case. Joe Biden isn't calling Alvin Bragg for details on the case. Hakeem Jeffries doesn't have his own task force searching for evidence to relay to the DA's office. Quit repeating stupid shit like the Democrats are prosecuting Trump. They aren't. See there really isn't a meaningful distinction to be made between the Clinton and Trump campaign's schemes there. Both campaigns NYC based. Here are the steps common to both schemes: 1. Do some campaign spending that you want to keep secret by first paying the money to your lawyer and then having your lawyer pay the intended recipient. 2. Describe the transaction in your internal records as legal fees for legal advice. 3. Don't report the campaign spending to the FEC. Trump is nominally charged with #2, but the NY DA must prove a second crime to upgrade it to a felony (and thereby increase the penalties on the accused), and the second crime that the NY DA is enforcing here is a federal crime (#3). Yet we have proof positive that the NYC area prosecutors, and the wider democratic party, don't actually care about the whole scheme: they didn't care care at all about Hillary's scheme. BTW yes the NY DA is trying to enforce federal law here. It is only under federal law that failing to report federal campaign spending is a crime. That's not even to mention the possibility that trump wasn't doing "campaign spending" because he was instead trying to hide it from his wife or generally trying to hide it as a public figure. Stormy's choice to come forward right before the election, but Trump would pay her 130k at any time. As for overall democratic party bias, consider that the NYC area prosecutors are elected democrats, and that the overall democratic party is obsessively committed to the goal of putting Trump in jail. If you want proof of that, go turn on MSNBC or CNN, go on Twitter, or go on any news outlet you deem to be reliable. It's the top narrative since 2017: the walls are closing in. Demonstrably selective prosecutions like what the NY DA is pursuing are really closely in line with this overall democratic party bias. That's why I say things are being taken too far. Just wait for Jack Smith, he's coming with the real crimes. Or if you're in get trump at all costs camp, I guess the NY DA has the utility of making it harder for trump to defend the real crimes. Which is a real utility, if you're in that camp. Except there is a meaningful distinction. That's why the Clinton Campaign got a fine and Trump is looking at felony charges. You can pretend there isn't a distinction but there is. You can ignore the catch and kill conspiracy that Trump, David Pecker, and Michael Cohen engaged in but the law certainly won't. They aren't charging Trump with failing to report federal campaign spending. They are charging him with falsifying business records which is a crime in the state of New York and they are also presumably charging him with a conspiracy charge, and because the falsification of business records was done to cover up the conspiracy, it is a felony. It might not be a conspiracy charge though, it might be some other crime, we'll know exactly what the 34th charge is tomorrow though. You keep saying factually wrong things about the case. Maybe you should read up on it before your next post? And again, we know that Trump, David Pecker, and Michael Cohen met and conspired to kill stories that could harm Trump's Presidential campaign and that they also falsified business records to cover up what the money was used for. We know this. Both David Pecker and Michael Cohen have confessed to this. Michael Cohen went to prison for this and David Pecker received transactional immunity for his testimony related to this. Yes, the Democrats are frothing at the mouth to put Trump away! That's why there are cases in every state and Trump is being thrown indictments every day since he got out! Just fucking stop. The persecution complex is embarrassing. The Democratic Party doesn't like Trump and many people would like to see Trump face justice, but the party has spent considerably less time obsessing with this indictment compared to the Republican Party, the party that is, by the way, spending all their energy on Trump, drag queens, and trans kids instead of proposing a budget and addressing the debt ceiling or addressing mass shootings or addressing climate change or addressing homelessness or addressing wage stagnation or addressing... you get the idea. Also, I couldn't give a shit what a news outlet says or how much time they spend covering Trump's criminal investigations. A news outlet is not the Democratic Party. They aren't demonstrably selective prosecutions and Trump isn't being treated unfairly. There are real, significant differences to what Trump did and what the Clinton campaign did and pretending there isn't doesn't make those differences go away. And if anything, Trump is being treated with kid gloves by our judicial system because he's an ex-President. Just to give an example, Trump won't have to stay in the state of New York after he's arraigned, he won't be handcuffed, and he might not even have to take a mug shot or if he does it'll probably be sealed. Also, we want to talk about party bias on this issue? The Republicans are frothing at the mouth even though they don't even know the facts of the case, and the justice department under Bill Barr asked for Cyrus Vance, the previous Manhattan DA, to stop the investigation into Trump. You really didn't establish a meaningful distinction. Is a "catch and kill conspiracy" worse than covering up a campaign's funding of an opposition research project so that the oppo research can be injected into the media and the FBI without the campaign's fingerprints? The two schemes are substantively the same: conceal campaign spending by recording it in internal records as legal fees. It's worthy of a civil fine only. If two presidential campaigns did it in the same year in the same state, it's just silly for only one of them to be charged. Since early 2017, the dems' information environment has been constantly saturated with the notion that trump must be put in jail. All I'm saying is that people are taking it too far. Just wait for Jack Smith - it's perfectly fine to wait for the real stuff and call out the overreach. Remember when Michael Avenatti showed up in the middle of the Kavanaugh stuff with a new but overreaching accusation? It undermined the other accusation(s). Funnily enough, the unsealed documents today don't even specify what the second crime that trump committed is. So it could be that the second crime is not a federal one. But I guess the NY DA doesn't think the defendant is entitled to know what he's accused of. Do I think both of them covering up payments is just as bad? In a vacuum, yes but there is a meaningful distinction between the two. The Clinton Campaign paid for opposition research, something every politician does and is not a crime. That opposition research was leaked and there has been no proof the Clinton Campaign leaked it to the press. Again, they didn't commit a crime. Donald Trump, however, falsified his business records to commit and conceal other crimes. You can pretend committing and concealing additional crimes isn't a meaningful distinction but the law certainly won't. And this isn't overreach no matter how much you want to say it is. He broke the law to influence the outcome of the election and commit and cover up additional crimes. He should be prosecuted and he is being prosecuted. And maybe you should watch Alvin Bragg's press conference. He literally says that the catch and kill scheme "violated New York election law which makes it a crime to conspire to promote a candidate by unlawful means, the $130,000 wire payment exceeded the federal campaign contribution cap, and the false statements in AMI's books violated New York law." Yeah, he's really hiding it from Trump, truly. He's hiding it so well that he announced it to the whole world earlier today.
The Clinton campaign was making every effort to push the Steele dossier into the media and the FBI, without the campaign being associated with it. That effort was successful: the FBI obtained wiretap surveillance on a Trump campaign member based on the dossier. But the dossier, aside from the already-public stuff about Russian election interference, wasn't true or credible. This is different from normal false opposition research, which isn't usually injected into the FBI like that. Of course, the Clinton campaign couldn't leave their fingerprints on the dossier for that whole effort to be successful, so they needed to cover up their involvement.
They concealed their funding of the dossier by calling it legal fees. That was a crime: campaign spending has to be reported. The campaign, of course, must have created internal records describing the payments as legal fees. Those were false records, because it wasn't true that the payments were for legal fees.
So we've got all the same elements as in the trump scheme. They created false records, and it was against the law to do the act that the false records were created in furtherance of (unreported campaign spending). It's all the same. And in both cases, the core act by itself - creating oppo research or catching and killing a tabloid story - is not illegal by itself, and instead is only made illegal by the failure to report campaign spending and the creation of internal records that aren't true.
Bragg's press conference is interesting but it still doesn't really fly because his office is not bound by what he says to the press. They're bound by what they put in front of the court, and those documents allow the defendant to prepare a defense. If the prosecutor says to the press "well maybe it's this, or maybe it's this, or maybe it's that," what is the real accusation? It all reeks of sloppy overreach. No surprise: Bragg's political campaign involved him brandishing his credentials pursuing the Trump org and Trump foundation in the past. Bragg is doing what will get him reelected by the committed democrats who live in New York City.
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On April 05 2023 12:11 King_Charles_III wrote:Show nested quote +On April 05 2023 09:18 StasisField wrote:On April 05 2023 08:48 King_Charles_III wrote:On April 04 2023 11:10 StasisField wrote:On April 04 2023 10:36 King_Charles_III wrote:On April 04 2023 01:17 StasisField wrote:On April 03 2023 21:51 King_Charles_III wrote: Yeah the whole push to get trump put in jail is understandable but it's important to be level headed about it which I'm sorry to say one cannot expect from the democrats. The dems don't genuinely think that the stormy case is worthy of criminal charges, and we know that because they didn't bat an eye when the other 2016 presidential campaign got a civil fine only for the same scheme. The NYC based Clinton campaign concealed their funding of the Steele dossier, and didn't report it as campaign spending, by describing it in internal records as legal fees. In other words they covered up campaign spending by disguising it as legal fees. They got a civil fine for it, and it was a little blip in the news because no one genuinely thinks it's worthy of criminal charges.
Then there's the fact that with the indictment, the Manhattan DA is essentially trying to enforce federal law. Their theory involves upgrading the charge because a federal not state law was violated - even though states don't have the power to enforce federal law. Go to the DA's website and it says he enforces state law; go to the DOJ's website and it says they enforce federal law.
So yes, prosecute trump for the serious stuff but committed members of the democratic party cannot be trusted for a second to be in charge of this. They can't see their own overreach. You seem to be confused. First, the difference between the Clinton campaign and the Trump campaign is DA Alvin Bragg has found evidence that the payment to Stormy Daniels was done with the intent to commit another crime. That's why there are criminal felony charges. Second, a felony charge is not something that only a federal body like the DOJ can investigate and prosecute and I have no idea how you came to that conclusion. The states investigate and prosecute felony charges all the time. This isn't overreach where he's trying to prosecute Trump for a crime he doesn't even have the jurisdiction to charge him with. And finally, the Democratic Party is not in charge of the case. Joe Biden isn't calling Alvin Bragg for details on the case. Hakeem Jeffries doesn't have his own task force searching for evidence to relay to the DA's office. Quit repeating stupid shit like the Democrats are prosecuting Trump. They aren't. See there really isn't a meaningful distinction to be made between the Clinton and Trump campaign's schemes there. Both campaigns NYC based. Here are the steps common to both schemes: 1. Do some campaign spending that you want to keep secret by first paying the money to your lawyer and then having your lawyer pay the intended recipient. 2. Describe the transaction in your internal records as legal fees for legal advice. 3. Don't report the campaign spending to the FEC. Trump is nominally charged with #2, but the NY DA must prove a second crime to upgrade it to a felony (and thereby increase the penalties on the accused), and the second crime that the NY DA is enforcing here is a federal crime (#3). Yet we have proof positive that the NYC area prosecutors, and the wider democratic party, don't actually care about the whole scheme: they didn't care care at all about Hillary's scheme. BTW yes the NY DA is trying to enforce federal law here. It is only under federal law that failing to report federal campaign spending is a crime. That's not even to mention the possibility that trump wasn't doing "campaign spending" because he was instead trying to hide it from his wife or generally trying to hide it as a public figure. Stormy's choice to come forward right before the election, but Trump would pay her 130k at any time. As for overall democratic party bias, consider that the NYC area prosecutors are elected democrats, and that the overall democratic party is obsessively committed to the goal of putting Trump in jail. If you want proof of that, go turn on MSNBC or CNN, go on Twitter, or go on any news outlet you deem to be reliable. It's the top narrative since 2017: the walls are closing in. Demonstrably selective prosecutions like what the NY DA is pursuing are really closely in line with this overall democratic party bias. That's why I say things are being taken too far. Just wait for Jack Smith, he's coming with the real crimes. Or if you're in get trump at all costs camp, I guess the NY DA has the utility of making it harder for trump to defend the real crimes. Which is a real utility, if you're in that camp. Except there is a meaningful distinction. That's why the Clinton Campaign got a fine and Trump is looking at felony charges. You can pretend there isn't a distinction but there is. You can ignore the catch and kill conspiracy that Trump, David Pecker, and Michael Cohen engaged in but the law certainly won't. They aren't charging Trump with failing to report federal campaign spending. They are charging him with falsifying business records which is a crime in the state of New York and they are also presumably charging him with a conspiracy charge, and because the falsification of business records was done to cover up the conspiracy, it is a felony. It might not be a conspiracy charge though, it might be some other crime, we'll know exactly what the 34th charge is tomorrow though. You keep saying factually wrong things about the case. Maybe you should read up on it before your next post? And again, we know that Trump, David Pecker, and Michael Cohen met and conspired to kill stories that could harm Trump's Presidential campaign and that they also falsified business records to cover up what the money was used for. We know this. Both David Pecker and Michael Cohen have confessed to this. Michael Cohen went to prison for this and David Pecker received transactional immunity for his testimony related to this. Yes, the Democrats are frothing at the mouth to put Trump away! That's why there are cases in every state and Trump is being thrown indictments every day since he got out! Just fucking stop. The persecution complex is embarrassing. The Democratic Party doesn't like Trump and many people would like to see Trump face justice, but the party has spent considerably less time obsessing with this indictment compared to the Republican Party, the party that is, by the way, spending all their energy on Trump, drag queens, and trans kids instead of proposing a budget and addressing the debt ceiling or addressing mass shootings or addressing climate change or addressing homelessness or addressing wage stagnation or addressing... you get the idea. Also, I couldn't give a shit what a news outlet says or how much time they spend covering Trump's criminal investigations. A news outlet is not the Democratic Party. They aren't demonstrably selective prosecutions and Trump isn't being treated unfairly. There are real, significant differences to what Trump did and what the Clinton campaign did and pretending there isn't doesn't make those differences go away. And if anything, Trump is being treated with kid gloves by our judicial system because he's an ex-President. Just to give an example, Trump won't have to stay in the state of New York after he's arraigned, he won't be handcuffed, and he might not even have to take a mug shot or if he does it'll probably be sealed. Also, we want to talk about party bias on this issue? The Republicans are frothing at the mouth even though they don't even know the facts of the case, and the justice department under Bill Barr asked for Cyrus Vance, the previous Manhattan DA, to stop the investigation into Trump. You really didn't establish a meaningful distinction. Is a "catch and kill conspiracy" worse than covering up a campaign's funding of an opposition research project so that the oppo research can be injected into the media and the FBI without the campaign's fingerprints? The two schemes are substantively the same: conceal campaign spending by recording it in internal records as legal fees. It's worthy of a civil fine only. If two presidential campaigns did it in the same year in the same state, it's just silly for only one of them to be charged. Since early 2017, the dems' information environment has been constantly saturated with the notion that trump must be put in jail. All I'm saying is that people are taking it too far. Just wait for Jack Smith - it's perfectly fine to wait for the real stuff and call out the overreach. Remember when Michael Avenatti showed up in the middle of the Kavanaugh stuff with a new but overreaching accusation? It undermined the other accusation(s). Funnily enough, the unsealed documents today don't even specify what the second crime that trump committed is. So it could be that the second crime is not a federal one. But I guess the NY DA doesn't think the defendant is entitled to know what he's accused of. Do I think both of them covering up payments is just as bad? In a vacuum, yes but there is a meaningful distinction between the two. The Clinton Campaign paid for opposition research, something every politician does and is not a crime. That opposition research was leaked and there has been no proof the Clinton Campaign leaked it to the press. Again, they didn't commit a crime. Donald Trump, however, falsified his business records to commit and conceal other crimes. You can pretend committing and concealing additional crimes isn't a meaningful distinction but the law certainly won't. And this isn't overreach no matter how much you want to say it is. He broke the law to influence the outcome of the election and commit and cover up additional crimes. He should be prosecuted and he is being prosecuted. And maybe you should watch Alvin Bragg's press conference. He literally says that the catch and kill scheme "violated New York election law which makes it a crime to conspire to promote a candidate by unlawful means, the $130,000 wire payment exceeded the federal campaign contribution cap, and the false statements in AMI's books violated New York law." Yeah, he's really hiding it from Trump, truly. He's hiding it so well that he announced it to the whole world earlier today. The Clinton campaign was making every effort to push the Steele dossier into the media and the FBI, without the campaign being associated with it. That effort was successful: the FBI obtained wiretap surveillance on a Trump campaign member based on the dossier. But the dossier, aside from the already-public stuff about Russian election interference, wasn't true or credible. This is different from normal false opposition research, which isn't usually injected into the FBI like that. Of course, the Clinton campaign couldn't leave their fingerprints on the dossier for that whole effort to be successful, so they needed to cover up their involvement. They concealed their funding of the dossier by calling it legal fees. That was a crime: campaign spending has to be reported. The campaign, of course, must have created internal records describing the payments as legal fees. Those were false records, because it wasn't true that the payments were for legal fees. So we've got all the same elements as in the trump scheme. They created false records, and it was against the law to do the act that the false records were created in furtherance of (unreported campaign spending). It's all the same. And in both cases, the core act by itself - creating oppo research or catching and killing a tabloid story - is not illegal by itself, and instead is only made illegal by the failure to report campaign spending and the creation of internal records that aren't true. Bragg's press conference is interesting but it still doesn't really fly because his office is not bound by what he says to the press. They're bound by what they put in front of the court, and those documents allow the defendant to prepare a defense. If the prosecutor says to the press "well maybe it's this, or maybe it's this, or maybe it's that," what is the real accusation? It all reeks of sloppy overreach. No surprise: Bragg's political campaign involved him brandishing his credentials pursuing the Trump org and Trump foundation in the past. Bragg is doing what will get him reelected by the committed democrats who live in New York City.
Why are you bothering with all this whataboutism before we barely know any details of what Trump is actually accused for?
It appear like a default stance that "Dems is just as bad". Also, don't forget Cohen has already been in prison for 3 years in this case, so it is hardly "smoke with no fire".
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If I understand all of this correctly, the heart of the matter is: did Trump's falsely labeled payoff to the women conceal other crimes or not? If they did, Trump will be convicted. If they didn't, this will blow up in the face of the democrats "crying wolf" again and politicizing the judicial system.
So, what crimes are they supposed to have concealed? Is it a crime to pay the women in the first place for some reason?
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On April 05 2023 12:11 King_Charles_III wrote:Show nested quote +On April 05 2023 09:18 StasisField wrote:On April 05 2023 08:48 King_Charles_III wrote:On April 04 2023 11:10 StasisField wrote:On April 04 2023 10:36 King_Charles_III wrote:On April 04 2023 01:17 StasisField wrote:On April 03 2023 21:51 King_Charles_III wrote: Yeah the whole push to get trump put in jail is understandable but it's important to be level headed about it which I'm sorry to say one cannot expect from the democrats. The dems don't genuinely think that the stormy case is worthy of criminal charges, and we know that because they didn't bat an eye when the other 2016 presidential campaign got a civil fine only for the same scheme. The NYC based Clinton campaign concealed their funding of the Steele dossier, and didn't report it as campaign spending, by describing it in internal records as legal fees. In other words they covered up campaign spending by disguising it as legal fees. They got a civil fine for it, and it was a little blip in the news because no one genuinely thinks it's worthy of criminal charges.
Then there's the fact that with the indictment, the Manhattan DA is essentially trying to enforce federal law. Their theory involves upgrading the charge because a federal not state law was violated - even though states don't have the power to enforce federal law. Go to the DA's website and it says he enforces state law; go to the DOJ's website and it says they enforce federal law.
So yes, prosecute trump for the serious stuff but committed members of the democratic party cannot be trusted for a second to be in charge of this. They can't see their own overreach. You seem to be confused. First, the difference between the Clinton campaign and the Trump campaign is DA Alvin Bragg has found evidence that the payment to Stormy Daniels was done with the intent to commit another crime. That's why there are criminal felony charges. Second, a felony charge is not something that only a federal body like the DOJ can investigate and prosecute and I have no idea how you came to that conclusion. The states investigate and prosecute felony charges all the time. This isn't overreach where he's trying to prosecute Trump for a crime he doesn't even have the jurisdiction to charge him with. And finally, the Democratic Party is not in charge of the case. Joe Biden isn't calling Alvin Bragg for details on the case. Hakeem Jeffries doesn't have his own task force searching for evidence to relay to the DA's office. Quit repeating stupid shit like the Democrats are prosecuting Trump. They aren't. See there really isn't a meaningful distinction to be made between the Clinton and Trump campaign's schemes there. Both campaigns NYC based. Here are the steps common to both schemes: 1. Do some campaign spending that you want to keep secret by first paying the money to your lawyer and then having your lawyer pay the intended recipient. 2. Describe the transaction in your internal records as legal fees for legal advice. 3. Don't report the campaign spending to the FEC. Trump is nominally charged with #2, but the NY DA must prove a second crime to upgrade it to a felony (and thereby increase the penalties on the accused), and the second crime that the NY DA is enforcing here is a federal crime (#3). Yet we have proof positive that the NYC area prosecutors, and the wider democratic party, don't actually care about the whole scheme: they didn't care care at all about Hillary's scheme. BTW yes the NY DA is trying to enforce federal law here. It is only under federal law that failing to report federal campaign spending is a crime. That's not even to mention the possibility that trump wasn't doing "campaign spending" because he was instead trying to hide it from his wife or generally trying to hide it as a public figure. Stormy's choice to come forward right before the election, but Trump would pay her 130k at any time. As for overall democratic party bias, consider that the NYC area prosecutors are elected democrats, and that the overall democratic party is obsessively committed to the goal of putting Trump in jail. If you want proof of that, go turn on MSNBC or CNN, go on Twitter, or go on any news outlet you deem to be reliable. It's the top narrative since 2017: the walls are closing in. Demonstrably selective prosecutions like what the NY DA is pursuing are really closely in line with this overall democratic party bias. That's why I say things are being taken too far. Just wait for Jack Smith, he's coming with the real crimes. Or if you're in get trump at all costs camp, I guess the NY DA has the utility of making it harder for trump to defend the real crimes. Which is a real utility, if you're in that camp. Except there is a meaningful distinction. That's why the Clinton Campaign got a fine and Trump is looking at felony charges. You can pretend there isn't a distinction but there is. You can ignore the catch and kill conspiracy that Trump, David Pecker, and Michael Cohen engaged in but the law certainly won't. They aren't charging Trump with failing to report federal campaign spending. They are charging him with falsifying business records which is a crime in the state of New York and they are also presumably charging him with a conspiracy charge, and because the falsification of business records was done to cover up the conspiracy, it is a felony. It might not be a conspiracy charge though, it might be some other crime, we'll know exactly what the 34th charge is tomorrow though. You keep saying factually wrong things about the case. Maybe you should read up on it before your next post? And again, we know that Trump, David Pecker, and Michael Cohen met and conspired to kill stories that could harm Trump's Presidential campaign and that they also falsified business records to cover up what the money was used for. We know this. Both David Pecker and Michael Cohen have confessed to this. Michael Cohen went to prison for this and David Pecker received transactional immunity for his testimony related to this. Yes, the Democrats are frothing at the mouth to put Trump away! That's why there are cases in every state and Trump is being thrown indictments every day since he got out! Just fucking stop. The persecution complex is embarrassing. The Democratic Party doesn't like Trump and many people would like to see Trump face justice, but the party has spent considerably less time obsessing with this indictment compared to the Republican Party, the party that is, by the way, spending all their energy on Trump, drag queens, and trans kids instead of proposing a budget and addressing the debt ceiling or addressing mass shootings or addressing climate change or addressing homelessness or addressing wage stagnation or addressing... you get the idea. Also, I couldn't give a shit what a news outlet says or how much time they spend covering Trump's criminal investigations. A news outlet is not the Democratic Party. They aren't demonstrably selective prosecutions and Trump isn't being treated unfairly. There are real, significant differences to what Trump did and what the Clinton campaign did and pretending there isn't doesn't make those differences go away. And if anything, Trump is being treated with kid gloves by our judicial system because he's an ex-President. Just to give an example, Trump won't have to stay in the state of New York after he's arraigned, he won't be handcuffed, and he might not even have to take a mug shot or if he does it'll probably be sealed. Also, we want to talk about party bias on this issue? The Republicans are frothing at the mouth even though they don't even know the facts of the case, and the justice department under Bill Barr asked for Cyrus Vance, the previous Manhattan DA, to stop the investigation into Trump. You really didn't establish a meaningful distinction. Is a "catch and kill conspiracy" worse than covering up a campaign's funding of an opposition research project so that the oppo research can be injected into the media and the FBI without the campaign's fingerprints? The two schemes are substantively the same: conceal campaign spending by recording it in internal records as legal fees. It's worthy of a civil fine only. If two presidential campaigns did it in the same year in the same state, it's just silly for only one of them to be charged. Since early 2017, the dems' information environment has been constantly saturated with the notion that trump must be put in jail. All I'm saying is that people are taking it too far. Just wait for Jack Smith - it's perfectly fine to wait for the real stuff and call out the overreach. Remember when Michael Avenatti showed up in the middle of the Kavanaugh stuff with a new but overreaching accusation? It undermined the other accusation(s). Funnily enough, the unsealed documents today don't even specify what the second crime that trump committed is. So it could be that the second crime is not a federal one. But I guess the NY DA doesn't think the defendant is entitled to know what he's accused of. Do I think both of them covering up payments is just as bad? In a vacuum, yes but there is a meaningful distinction between the two. The Clinton Campaign paid for opposition research, something every politician does and is not a crime. That opposition research was leaked and there has been no proof the Clinton Campaign leaked it to the press. Again, they didn't commit a crime. Donald Trump, however, falsified his business records to commit and conceal other crimes. You can pretend committing and concealing additional crimes isn't a meaningful distinction but the law certainly won't. And this isn't overreach no matter how much you want to say it is. He broke the law to influence the outcome of the election and commit and cover up additional crimes. He should be prosecuted and he is being prosecuted. And maybe you should watch Alvin Bragg's press conference. He literally says that the catch and kill scheme "violated New York election law which makes it a crime to conspire to promote a candidate by unlawful means, the $130,000 wire payment exceeded the federal campaign contribution cap, and the false statements in AMI's books violated New York law." Yeah, he's really hiding it from Trump, truly. He's hiding it so well that he announced it to the whole world earlier today. The Clinton campaign was making every effort to push the Steele dossier into the media and the FBI, without the campaign being associated with it. That effort was successful: the FBI obtained wiretap surveillance on a Trump campaign member based on the dossier. But the dossier, aside from the already-public stuff about Russian election interference, wasn't true or credible. This is different from normal false opposition research, which isn't usually injected into the FBI like that. Of course, the Clinton campaign couldn't leave their fingerprints on the dossier for that whole effort to be successful, so they needed to cover up their involvement. You keep saying that they tried to supress their involvement and yet I can't remember that at any point someone barged in here with "omg did you know it was payed for by Democrats". As far as I can tell it was known from the very start that both Democrats and Republicans payed the investigative firm that hired Steele.
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United States41962 Posts
On April 05 2023 17:28 Elroi wrote: If I understand all of this correctly, the heart of the matter is: did Trump's falsely labeled payoff to the women conceal other crimes or not? If they did, Trump will be convicted. If they didn't, this will blow up in the face of the democrats "crying wolf" again and politicizing the judicial system.
So, what crimes are they supposed to have concealed? Is it a crime to pay the women in the first place for some reason? The payment was a campaign expense but the bookkeeping was non campaign as I understand it. The crime was illegal campaign contributions. He also structured the payment to make it appear other than what it was with fabricated invoices etc. which was falsifying his business records.
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On April 05 2023 17:28 Elroi wrote: If I understand all of this correctly, the heart of the matter is: did Trump's falsely labeled payoff to the women conceal other crimes or not? If they did, Trump will be convicted. If they didn't, this will blow up in the face of the democrats "crying wolf" again and politicizing the judicial system.
So, what crimes are they supposed to have concealed? Is it a crime to pay the women in the first place for some reason?
Which Democrats?
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I love the idea that "doing things that will get you elected" is simultaneously what makes Republicans great and what makes Democrats evil. Not that I think it actually holds a candle in the light of this case, again, Trump broke New York state law and is being subject to accountability as someone who committed a set of crimes. This isn't a political issue. If it becomes so, it is the Republicans that made it political. Start and end of story.
Not all of your problems can be explained away as an insidious conspiracy by the Democrats. You're going to sound awfully silly if you fall and break a bone, if that's the only explanation you have for anything.
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On April 05 2023 21:24 KwarK wrote:Show nested quote +On April 05 2023 17:28 Elroi wrote: If I understand all of this correctly, the heart of the matter is: did Trump's falsely labeled payoff to the women conceal other crimes or not? If they did, Trump will be convicted. If they didn't, this will blow up in the face of the democrats "crying wolf" again and politicizing the judicial system.
So, what crimes are they supposed to have concealed? Is it a crime to pay the women in the first place for some reason? The payment was a campaign expense but the bookkeeping was non campaign as I understand it. The crime was illegal campaign contributions. He also structured the payment to make it appear other than what it was with fabricated invoices etc. which was falsifying his business records.
The measures taken to cover up the payment could end up being more serious than the payment itself. The details, and if more shady dealings are involved should be very interesting to learn about!
The Trump camp will likely defend by doing everything they can to distract from the actual case and its proofs.
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On April 05 2023 21:26 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:Show nested quote +On April 05 2023 17:28 Elroi wrote: If I understand all of this correctly, the heart of the matter is: did Trump's falsely labeled payoff to the women conceal other crimes or not? If they did, Trump will be convicted. If they didn't, this will blow up in the face of the democrats "crying wolf" again and politicizing the judicial system.
So, what crimes are they supposed to have concealed? Is it a crime to pay the women in the first place for some reason? Which Democrats? The prosecutor has been elected as a representative of the Democratic party, running on a campagin focused on prosecuting Trump, no? Thanks for the clarification, kwark. It’s going to be interesting to see what happens now. There is a lot on the line.
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On April 06 2023 01:02 Elroi wrote:Show nested quote +On April 05 2023 21:26 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On April 05 2023 17:28 Elroi wrote: If I understand all of this correctly, the heart of the matter is: did Trump's falsely labeled payoff to the women conceal other crimes or not? If they did, Trump will be convicted. If they didn't, this will blow up in the face of the democrats "crying wolf" again and politicizing the judicial system.
So, what crimes are they supposed to have concealed? Is it a crime to pay the women in the first place for some reason? Which Democrats? The prosecutor has been elected as a representative of the Democratic party, running on a campagin focused on prosecuting Trump, no?
Okay, so just the New York Democrats who support Alvin Bragg?
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On April 06 2023 01:02 Elroi wrote:Show nested quote +On April 05 2023 21:26 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On April 05 2023 17:28 Elroi wrote: If I understand all of this correctly, the heart of the matter is: did Trump's falsely labeled payoff to the women conceal other crimes or not? If they did, Trump will be convicted. If they didn't, this will blow up in the face of the democrats "crying wolf" again and politicizing the judicial system.
So, what crimes are they supposed to have concealed? Is it a crime to pay the women in the first place for some reason? Which Democrats? The prosecutor has been elected as a representative of the Democratic party, running on a campagin focused on prosecuting Trump, no? Thanks for the clarification, kwark. It’s going to be interesting to see what hoppens now. There is a lot on the line. People keep saying the prosecutor is pushing for his, but are you forgetting about the grand jury that actually recommended the charges? This isn't just some rogue prosecutor trying to make a name for himself.
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United States41962 Posts
Also he did actually do the crime. It’s why his accomplice went to prison. I feel like this is a classic case of “when you can’t argue innocence make the argument about the process”.
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On April 05 2023 17:28 Elroi wrote: If I understand all of this correctly, the heart of the matter is: did Trump's falsely labeled payoff to the women conceal other crimes or not? If they did, Trump will be convicted. If they didn't, this will blow up in the face of the democrats "crying wolf" again and politicizing the judicial system.
So, what crimes are they supposed to have concealed? Is it a crime to pay the women in the first place for some reason?
My understanding is that the "conceal other crimes" part is what allowed the prosecutor to upgrade it from misdemeanor charges to felony charges. Also I think it was considered a crime to pay the woman in the first place because it's argued paying off Stormy Daniels benefited Trump's campaign and therefore it should be considered a campaign contribution and because it was done by Michael Cohen as the middle man it far exceeded the maximum an individual is allowed to contribute.
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Cohen going to prison is all we need to know about "did an actual crime happen". From there it is just a matter of what separates when Trump did vs what Cohen did.
Also, I'd like to reiterate that a grand jury being involved is all we need to shoo away the "this is just a political hit job" nonsense.
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That payment was not why Cohen went to prison. His main charges were bank fraud. He plead to the campaign finance charges because it was essentially free for both sides to do so, he hoped it would work to his credit in sentencing (those charges by themselves would have added basically nothing to his overall punishment) and the prosecutor got another notch. The campaign finance "violation" wasn't adjudicated at all and no jury was involved in determination of guilt. I thought people knew this type of thing was common, but maybe not. Just like the the 34 charges bit, as if each one is really a unique event.
actually there was another Andy McCarthy piece on this. If you want a perspective from somone who doesn't like Trump but isn't a Democrat politician I recommend him.
+ Show Spoiler +...
It has been amusing, then, to observe the Lawyer Left’s latest pushback against the inconvenience that Bragg’s campaign-finance allegation against Trump — which is critical to his crusade to inflate a time-barred, misdemeanor business-records infraction into a (maybe) barely live felony — is probably dead on arrival. We can be confident that there were two campaign-finance felonies, they tell us, because Cohen pled guilty to them in a prosecution brought by Trump’s own Justice Department.
Where to begin?
Obviously, if it were true that the judgment of the Justice Department and its notoriously aggressive SDNY prosecutors were dispositive, then the case against Trump should be considered closed right now. It’s not enough to say that the same prosecutors who squeezed the guilty pleas out of Cohen, and who were trying very hard to make a case against Trump, decided in the end that there was no case to bring. Beyond that, you may have heard that the Justice Department has been under new management since January 20, 2021. In the ensuing 27 months, although we know it is moving energetically to nail Trump on everything from the Capitol riot to the Mar-a-Lago classified documents, the Biden Justice Department has never alleged that Trump’s hush-money arrangements with porn star Stormy Daniels and Playboy model Karen McDougal constituted campaign-finance violations.
Ah, but then comes the Democrats’ rejoinder: Cohen himself admitted his guilt to these “crimes.” As legal eagle Adam Schiff puts it, prosecuting Trump for campaign-finance violations would merely be a matter of nailing the principal for the crimes that Cohen, his poor sap toady, has already acknowledged committing.
And who could be more of an authority on campaign finance than Cohen, right?
Please. First, even if this argument could be taken seriously (it can’t), federal campaign-finance laws operate differently depending on whether one is in the position of a donor of alleged in-kind contributions or of the candidate. The former is burdened by strict donation limits; the latter is not. Moreover, when the alleged in-kind contribution is not patently campaign-related — i.e., when it is earmarked for expenses the candidate would have even if there were no campaign, as opposed to traditional campaign expenses such as polling or ads — then the intent of the donor could well be very different from that of the candidate. Even if the donor is motivated to see the candidate prevail in the election (as Cohen clearly was, since he hoped a Trump presidency would become a gravy train for him), the candidate could be motivated by whatever drove him to take on the expenses in question (as Trump contends the nondisclosure agreements were to spare his wife, his family, and his reputation from humiliation — which, regardless of whether Trump is lying, is a common reason why people and businesses with a lot to lose enter into and pay dearly for NDAs).
Now, here’s why the Cohen-pled-guilty claim can’t be taken seriously.
While his apologists would like us to develop amnesia about this history, Cohen did not plead guilty in federal court because of campaign-finance violations, which were merely an opportunistic add-on. Cohen pled guilty because the SDNY had him dead-to-rights on serious fraud charges.
Cohen committed bank fraud in connection with a multimillion-dollar line of credit. Bank fraud carries a penalty of up to 30 years’ imprisonment. As the most severe offense he faced, it was the driver of the federal sentencing guidelines that would apply to his case. Cohen’s crimes were not sufficiently heinous that he was going to be sentenced to anything close to 30 years; but once a 30-year crime was in the mix, it didn’t much matter to his ultimate sentence whether he pled guilty to ten less-egregious offenses, no such offenses, or something in between.
In addition to the bank fraud, Cohen pled guilty to five counts of tax evasion, each carrying a potential five-year prison term. By the Justice Department’s description, these felonies involved over $4 million in unreported income. The evidence of what the SDNY called “The Tax Evasion Scheme” covered four years. If the case had ever gone to trial, that fraud scheme would have been the framework within which the SDNY unfolded its bank-fraud proof. That was the heart of the Cohen prosecution.
That is why Cohen pled guilty. He was looking at years of incarceration. And as is common when a suspect is in such straits, Cohen desperately sought to become a cooperating witness for the government. Why? Because under the federal sentencing guidelines, if the prosecutors can be persuaded to file a pre-sentencing motion attesting to the court that the defendant has provided substantial assistance in the investigation or prosecution of other suspects, especially suspects higher up in the food chain, the judge is then authorized to ignore the sentencing guidelines and impose a sentence of no jail time — or, at least, minimal jail time.
Cohen was trying to sell himself as a cooperator. But here’s the problem: The guy the prosecutors wanted to nail was Trump, and Trump was not complicit in any of the tax- and bank-fraud schemes at issue in Cohen’s case.
To the extent that Cohen was relevant, all the SDNY had on Trump were these hush-money arrangements. Since NDAs are not illegal, the question was how to transform them into crimes. The only way to do that, the creative SDNY prosecutors decided, was to invoke the campaign-finance laws. But to say that was a stretch is putting it mildly. The NDAs were not traditional campaign expenses. Yes, the women involved turned up the heat during the campaign, extortionately threatening to go public, which might have torpedoed Trump’s presidential bid in the wake of the infamous Access Hollywood tape. But this was just commonsense hardball, striking when their leverage against the notoriously parsimonious Trump was at its height; it didn’t mean that NDAs — which Trump had plenty of other personal, political, and business incentives to pay for — were necessarily in-kind campaign expenses.
On this, the law was not on the SDNY’s side. But the prosecutors did have Cohen over a barrel. So they held the carrot out to him, but made no firm promises: Plead guilty to two campaign-finance felonies (the Daniels and McDougal NDAs), implicate Trump in the underlying schemes, and they’d consider giving him a cooperation agreement.
It was a no-risk calculation on both sides. For Cohen, the campaign-finance counts, which carried five-year maximum sentences, involved amounts of money that were minor compared to the fraud counts. They would thus have no material impact on whatever sentence was imposed. More to the point, Cohen was trying to avoid prison all together, and this was his only shot at a cooperation agreement.
The SDNY, meanwhile, for case-building and public-relations purposes, would get Cohen, a key participant, to brand the scheme as a pair of campaign-finance felonies in which Trump was the main culprit; but the allegations would never be tested at trial because Cohen was pleading guilty. Even better, in pleading guilty, Cohen would also waive his right to appeal, so if the district court accepted his plea (which it did), the dubious campaign-finance counts would never be reviewed by the Second Circuit appellate court, let alone the Supreme Court.
In the end, the Cohen/SDNY deal went about as well as the Trump/Stormy deal. Cohen did not get his cooperation agreement (even after upping the ante by agreeing to plead to a perjury charge in the Mueller investigation) and was sentenced to three years’ imprisonment because of his frauds. He now claims the SDNY double-crossed him, and he has suddenly decided he wasn’t guilty after all of the tax-evasion charges to which he pled guilty — a posture that not only further weakens him as a prosecution witness for Bragg, but must also be a source of at least some embarrassment for those who now argue that the campaign-finance crimes were real because Cohen admitted to them when he pled guilty.
https://www.nationalreview.com/2023/04/no-cohens-guilty-plea-does-not-prove-trump-committed-campaign-finance-crimes/
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There's no take-backsies with guilty pleas
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