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United States24772 Posts
On August 14 2022 05:18 StasisField wrote:
If they were declassified, they wouldn't say things like "Top Secret" on them anymore.
This actually isn't true. You need to differentiate between declassifying information and declassifying a document.
If Trump correctly declassified a fact (information), then that doesn't magically change the banner markings on every document that is marked as classified simply for having that fact in it. The document needs to be reviewed at a later date so that the banner markings can be updated to no longer say the document is classified. It's possible for Trump to have a box full of documents marked "top secret" even though none of the information within is top secret anymore. It's still a violation of the rules to have documents marked as "top secret" outside of appropriate storage for classified documents, but it's not a big deal like actually mishandling top secret information.
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On August 14 2022 05:24 r00ty wrote:Show nested quote +On August 14 2022 04:51 Mohdoo wrote:
For any of the lawyers around here, how much truth is there to the idea that Trump can decide something is no longer classified without procedure? Check out DarkPlasmaBall post #75039 on the last page. + Show Spoiler +This is an additional level of criminality, as Trump is a private citizen and no longer has security clearance, but Trump asserted that he declassified everything he kept (setting aside the first fact that he's not allowed to "keep" anything). There is no documentation or record or labeling of those things ever being declassified while he was in office, and he can't declassify anything now that he's out of office, so it's almost certain that he's simply claiming he declassified them (back when he was president) to try to avoid even more trouble. Furthermore, while the president can generally declassify classified information (when he's in office), there are some things even he can't unilaterally declassify. For example, as per the Atomic Energy Acts of the 1940s and 1950s, sensitive nuclear documentation requires multiple parties (not just the president) to come to a formal, multi-step consensus before becoming declassified, for extreme safety and security reasons. Trump had such nuclear documents with him, which he could never simply declassify on his own (and, apparently, never tell anyone). Edit: John Brennan, ex-CIA director (and Trump enemy to be fair), just said he never had access to documents with that clearance concerning nuclear secrets, because he never needed it to do his job, which is plausible.
Disclaimer: I'm not a lawyer, but I tried my best to understand and summarize what lawyers have been writing about this, so take it with a grain of salt ^^
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United States24772 Posts
If I ever accidentally bring classified documents home from work and get caught, I'm going to claim that Trump declassified them back when he was in office. Problem solved.
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Obama could reveal all of the US's secrets because he declassified everything in his head while he was in office, and you can't prove he didn't.
Its the sort of argument you expect from a 6y old on the school playground. Which is very fitting for Trump.
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On August 14 2022 05:32 micronesia wrote:Show nested quote +On August 14 2022 05:18 StasisField wrote:
If they were declassified, they wouldn't say things like "Top Secret" on them anymore. This actually isn't true. You need to differentiate between declassifying information and declassifying a document.If Trump correctly declassified a fact (information), then that doesn't magically change the banner markings on every document that is marked as classified simply for having that fact in it. The document needs to be reviewed at a later date so that the banner markings can be updated to no longer say the document is classified. It's possible for Trump to have a box full of documents marked "top secret" even though none of the information within is top secret anymore. It's still a violation of the rules to have documents marked as "top secret" outside of appropriate storage for classified documents, but it's not a big deal like actually mishandling top secret information.
Ah gotcha, thanks for the info
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To be a fly on the wall during a lot of these questionings...boring, but I'd love to hear the reasoning behind how this all unfolded.
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I have asked myself a couple times since reading the unsealed warrant why Trump hasn't been arrested yet, and this is what I've concluded
The DOJ has been working its investigation into Trump very slowly and with very, very little info being made public. I think the DOJ is attempting to edtablish how each of these documents made it to Mar-a-Lago before deciding to proceed with any criminal charges so they can lay out exactly what happened without any pieces of the puzzle missing. Doing that takes time.
I know plenty of us, myself included, have serious doubts Trump will ever even be charged, let alone held criminally responsible in a prison cell, but I think it's important to remember that we never thought Trump's home would get searched either. Things are happening slowly and silently, but they are happening.
And that's all the mild optimism I have for the day.
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The declassification claim is obviously bullshit since it was never raised before he was caught. If he truly had declassified these documents, then he would have told the FBI as such when they asked back in February and again in the June letter his attorney sent. The fact it is only being raised now (as far as I know) is pretty damning evidence that it never actually happened, and the word of a few sycophants that he mentioned it to them back when he was in office is not sufficient.
I keep coming back to two questions which the cultists continue to ignore in their instinctual reflex to defend Trump on declassification grounds.
First, what business does Trump have taking top secret documents that in any way relate to our nuclear capabilities? Even if he 'could' take them unilaterally, which is up for debate, what possible non-nefarious reason could he have to actually do so?
Second, on the near impossible chance that Trump could provide a legitimate explanation for why he needed them, what possible explanation is there for then declassifying said nuclear documents? It isn't exactly comforting if the only reason he pre-emptively declassified them is so that he wouldn't get in trouble if he was caught with them.
As an aside, if this makes it to SCOTUS I fully expect Thomas (and prob Alito) to rule that the President's power to declassify is so strong they can mentally decide that any (and every?) document in the US is declassified and it would hold up even if he never told anyone and made the claim anytime after he left office.
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Bisutopia19345 Posts
On August 14 2022 04:37 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:Show nested quote +On August 14 2022 04:06 BisuDagger wrote:On August 14 2022 03:49 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On August 14 2022 03:11 Broetchenholer wrote:
So, it's pretty apparent, that Donald trump broke the law. Who here believes that he will be found guilty for it and serve time for it, according to established sentencing or the same crimes fir people who are not political cult leaders? I can't imagine him facing prison time, at this point I would rather put money on civil war then trump being punished for anything he has done so far. I could maybe see him charged and convicted of something super minor, but I really don't see him doing any prison time at all. At best, I think he'd receive a slap on the wrist, which would actually piss off both sides (pro-Trump people would hate that he was convicted of anything, and anti-Trump people would hate that he wasn't convicted of everything he actually did.) I can't fathom a person like Trump ever actually being held properly accountable for the major, serious shit he's done. As a conservative, I’m praying he gets put in jail. We haven’t had a Conservative party in decades. I hope Trump leads himself and the Republican Party to its demise. (I think I’m more hopeful then Liberals who vehemently hate Trump lol). Do you think it's possible for a new, better version of the Republican party to rise from the ashes? I worry that Trump has set a precedent that other popular Republicans will follow (like Ron DeSantis), even with Trump eventually gone. I don't know if the Republican party splitting is the solution for more traditional conservatives, or something else, but I'm not sure if it's possible to ever go back to the pre-Trump era.
I don’t think the Republican Party is salvageable. I want a better version of the libertarian party where we can show social tolerance while running a conservative federal government.
As a Floridian, I don’t want Ron for president, but he’s a much better Governor then the news makes him to be. I’m happy with him doing no more then running our state. We need someone less like Ron at a federal level.
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On August 14 2022 08:27 BisuDagger wrote:Show nested quote +On August 14 2022 04:37 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On August 14 2022 04:06 BisuDagger wrote:On August 14 2022 03:49 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On August 14 2022 03:11 Broetchenholer wrote:
So, it's pretty apparent, that Donald trump broke the law. Who here believes that he will be found guilty for it and serve time for it, according to established sentencing or the same crimes fir people who are not political cult leaders? I can't imagine him facing prison time, at this point I would rather put money on civil war then trump being punished for anything he has done so far. I could maybe see him charged and convicted of something super minor, but I really don't see him doing any prison time at all. At best, I think he'd receive a slap on the wrist, which would actually piss off both sides (pro-Trump people would hate that he was convicted of anything, and anti-Trump people would hate that he wasn't convicted of everything he actually did.) I can't fathom a person like Trump ever actually being held properly accountable for the major, serious shit he's done. As a conservative, I’m praying he gets put in jail. We haven’t had a Conservative party in decades. I hope Trump leads himself and the Republican Party to its demise. (I think I’m more hopeful then Liberals who vehemently hate Trump lol). Do you think it's possible for a new, better version of the Republican party to rise from the ashes? I worry that Trump has set a precedent that other popular Republicans will follow (like Ron DeSantis), even with Trump eventually gone. I don't know if the Republican party splitting is the solution for more traditional conservatives, or something else, but I'm not sure if it's possible to ever go back to the pre-Trump era. I don’t think the Republican Party is salvageable. I want a better version of the libertarian party where we can show social tolerance while running a conservative federal government. As a Floridian, I don’t want Ron for president, but he’s a much better Governor then the news makes him to be. I’m happy with him doing no more then running our state. We need someone less like Ron at a federal level.
Would you mind elaborating more on what you think a respectable libertarian party would look like, if they were to govern our country? As in, ideal policy positions? What would they do or change?
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On August 14 2022 06:44 On_Slaught wrote:
The declassification claim is obviously bullshit since it was never raised before he was caught. If he truly had declassified these documents, then he would have told the FBI as such when they asked back in February and again in the June letter his attorney sent. The fact it is only being raised now (as far as I know) is pretty damning evidence that it never actually happened, and the word of a few sycophants that he mentioned it to them back when he was in office is not sufficient.
I keep coming back to two questions which the cultists continue to ignore in their instinctual reflex to defend Trump on declassification grounds.
First, what business does Trump have taking top secret documents that in any way relate to our nuclear capabilities? Even if he 'could' take them unilaterally, which is up for debate, what possible non-nefarious reason could he have to actually do so?
Second, on the near impossible chance that Trump could provide a legitimate explanation for why he needed them, what possible explanation is there for then declassifying said nuclear documents? It isn't exactly comforting if the only reason he pre-emptively declassified them is so that he wouldn't get in trouble if he was caught with them.
As an aside, if this makes it to SCOTUS I fully expect Thomas (and prob Alito) to rule that the President's power to declassify is so strong they can mentally decide that any (and every?) document in the US is declassified and it would hold up even if he never told anyone and made the claim anytime after he left office.
Thomas and Alito believe in kings rather than presidents so they will absolutely back him. Gorsuch will not. Not Kav either. I honestly don’t see this going to the Supreme Court anyway. If trump’s only remaining defense is “but I decided they aren’t classified”, that means this is an incredibly open and shut case. I think it’s likely his guilt is extremely conclusive. The technicality defense means he’s toast otherwise.
The other component of this is that we know his inner circle ratted him out. That likely means someone was like “aight I’m out, this is way too evil”, which likely means some sort of plan for these documents existed or already took place. In such a case, there’s already a flip and the guilt goes beyond classification.
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On August 14 2022 09:21 Mohdoo wrote:Show nested quote +On August 14 2022 06:44 On_Slaught wrote:
The declassification claim is obviously bullshit since it was never raised before he was caught. If he truly had declassified these documents, then he would have told the FBI as such when they asked back in February and again in the June letter his attorney sent. The fact it is only being raised now (as far as I know) is pretty damning evidence that it never actually happened, and the word of a few sycophants that he mentioned it to them back when he was in office is not sufficient.
I keep coming back to two questions which the cultists continue to ignore in their instinctual reflex to defend Trump on declassification grounds.
First, what business does Trump have taking top secret documents that in any way relate to our nuclear capabilities? Even if he 'could' take them unilaterally, which is up for debate, what possible non-nefarious reason could he have to actually do so?
Second, on the near impossible chance that Trump could provide a legitimate explanation for why he needed them, what possible explanation is there for then declassifying said nuclear documents? It isn't exactly comforting if the only reason he pre-emptively declassified them is so that he wouldn't get in trouble if he was caught with them.
As an aside, if this makes it to SCOTUS I fully expect Thomas (and prob Alito) to rule that the President's power to declassify is so strong they can mentally decide that any (and every?) document in the US is declassified and it would hold up even if he never told anyone and made the claim anytime after he left office.
Thomas and Alito believe in kings rather than presidents so they will absolutely back him. Gorsuch will not. Not Kav either. I honestly don’t see this going to the Supreme Court anyway. If trump’s only remaining defense is “but I decided they aren’t classified”, that means this is an incredibly open and shut case. I think it’s likely his guilt is extremely conclusive. The technicality defense means he’s toast otherwise. The other component of this is that we know his inner circle ratted him out. That likely means someone was like “aight I’m out, this is way too evil”, which likely means some sort of plan for these documents existed or already took place. In such a case, there’s already a flip and the guilt goes beyond classification.
Any idea who the mole might be, within his inner circle? I've heard rumors that Jared Kushner or Don Jr. might flip (or non-family members), but I think it'd be especially hilarious if it were Melania.
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Personally I think it was someone who was in on the whole thing at first, then Trump wanted to go a little too deep or do something that felt a little too insane. This person realized they were probably gonna end up in prison if things went south so they bailed. I honestly don't think Trump would include Melania in his mob boss stuff.
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I don't think Trump went too far for the informant. Keep in mind, Trump already attempted to overthrow the government and reinstate himself as President. If that wasn't too far for his inner circle, then I don't think this was either. The documents have also been there since Trump left the White House, meaning this person had a ton of time to rat Trump out but didn't until relatively recently. I think the informant felt the investigations closing in around them and wanted to save their own skin before charges get brought.
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On August 14 2022 13:41 StasisField wrote:
I don't think Trump went too far for the informant. Keep in mind, Trump already attempted to overthrow the government and reinstate himself as President. If that wasn't too far for his inner circle, then I don't think this was either. The documents have also been there since Trump left the White House, meaning this person had a ton of time to rat Trump out but didn't until relatively recently. I think the informant felt the investigations closing in around them and wanted to save their own skin before charges get brought.
I should be clear that what I mean by going too far is doing something too risky where they think they'll get caught.
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On August 14 2022 13:57 Mohdoo wrote:Show nested quote +On August 14 2022 13:41 StasisField wrote:
I don't think Trump went too far for the informant. Keep in mind, Trump already attempted to overthrow the government and reinstate himself as President. If that wasn't too far for his inner circle, then I don't think this was either. The documents have also been there since Trump left the White House, meaning this person had a ton of time to rat Trump out but didn't until relatively recently. I think the informant felt the investigations closing in around them and wanted to save their own skin before charges get brought. I should be clear that what I mean by going too far is doing something too risky where they think they'll get caught.
Oh okay. Yeah that's pretty likely too
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God I hope Bannon is the mole. Hey, maybe it really is Melania after she saw how Trump buried his ex-wife in a cheap, shallow grave on his golf course for a tax break (which is probably in her future too).
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On August 14 2022 14:16 On_Slaught wrote:
God I hope Bannon is the mole. Hey, maybe it really is Melania after she saw how Trump buried his ex-wife in a cheap, shallow grave on his golf course for a tax break (which is probably in her future too).
It's important to have good, reliable family values.
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Northern Ireland26772 Posts
Wasn’t there talk that someone had recently been charged/convicted for something in a similar domain? Might have been in this thread.
If they were some broker to actually sell some of this stuff it seems pretty conceivable that they’d both know what was in Mar-a-Lago, and if they flipped the Feds would know exactly what they were looking for. On the other hand they could be completely unrelated.
I mean, unless you have some plan to use them in some way, holding on to such docs is high risk, zero reward. Something must have changed between him leaving office and bringing said documents, and now.
As enjoyable as the thought of the Trump mob all flipping on each other is, I’m assuming at least some of the tipoffs must have come from Trump’s Secret Service detail.
Probably the only former US President who having such a detail is an active detriment to their life.
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EPT
