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On June 27 2022 11:42 JimmiC wrote:
Whats the strategy behind not voting dem? It is not like that precludes you from doing anything else and the only other two choices on that day are spectacularly worse if these decisions upset them.
Bunch of differing perspectives on that. Some people view it as a moralistic reason, ergo "if I don't vote, I'm not legitimizing the two-party system in American politics", and I don't really have a strong opinion on that particular reasoning because I haven't thought much about it, but one perspective I've read is that because the Dems almost always push centrist moderates to win primaries over actual progressives (see the Cuellar vs Cisneros Texas primary not too long ago), voting for those centrist, moderate Dems in the general election is explicit support for the Democratic establishment to keep campaigning against progressive Dems, and given how absolutely ineffective Biden has been at making positive change (in the sense that he barely cancelled any student debt, didn't do any executive orders regarding marijuana possession, hasn't expanded the SC, and many other things he has the authority to do), hasn't gotten the Dem Senate majority in line with his agenda (which while difficult, is not impossible, just look at what LBJ did with his Congress), and has outright made things worse (see his entire response to Covid compared to Trump's), by voting for Dems, things will never get better in the US because the Dem establishment will not support progressive policies that would make actual substantial change in people's lives
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On June 27 2022 11:42 JimmiC wrote:
Whats the strategy behind not voting dem? It is not like that precludes you from doing anything else and the only other two choices on that day are spectacularly worse if these decisions upset them.
Agree. I don't get it. Other than trying to primary someone I dont think threatening to not vote is a good incentive. You are fucking demonstrably worse if you don't vote for Dems. As I stated before, we have to play defense against Republicans and a Dem vote is the only vote that is actively anti-Republican.
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Being upset about the current Supreme Court and its decisions is a terrible reason not to vote for Democrats. It was precisely a lack of Democrats (in the Senate and White House) that allowed this Supreme Court lineup to come to be. It really is that simple.
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For races that already a lock for democrats, it makes sense to show your dissatisfaction by choosing to not vote for democrats. But when a race is competitive, I think the time to make your voice heard is the primary. If a progressive loses a primary to a more conservative democrat, I have a hard time blaming the party for that. It is kind of whiny to say "Well if my preferred candidate loses the primary, I'm gone". If conservative democrats did the same, we'd be in an equally bad situation. Once the primary is over, and if the race is competitive, it makes sense to just vote for the democrat. But I use my vote as a lazy form of activism if my preferred candidate doesn't win the primary.
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It’s not clear if Democrats particularly care about doing something about this Joe v. Wade problem, or if they intend to use it as a wedge issue while merely paying lip service to doing anything meaningful about it. They’ve done the latter a lot; why not once more?
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I honestly have no clue if this makes me a hypocrite or not given how much I hate electoral politics but I have voted in every primary and general election since I turned 18 in 2014. I remember in my first primary, I registered Republican to vote against the Tea Party candidates and none of the people I voted for won, and the outcomes I've wanted have been few and far between, but I still do it anyway
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On June 27 2022 14:39 LegalLord wrote:
It’s not clear if Democrats particularly care about doing something about this Joe v. Wade problem, or if they intend to use it as a wedge issue while merely paying lip service to doing anything meaningful about it. They’ve done the latter a lot; why not once more?
Well... "We" don't know what the Democrats see or want with the issue (strategically) but we damn sure know what the Republicans want and do.
This is really not hard.
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On June 27 2022 06:25 BlackJack wrote:Show nested quote +On June 25 2022 17:45 RvB wrote:
As a European there's something I don't understand. What surprised me is that the ruling was 6-3 in favour of abolishing the federal right to abortion but then why did it take so long for the ruling to occur? As far as I know there's been a 5-4 conservative majority for at least 2 decades now so why didn't they throw out Roe vs Wade two decades ago? In his concurrence John Roberts indicates he didn't want to throw out Roe/Casey. I don't think he is really happy with this decision but it was going to happen with or without him. Remember he sided with the 4 liberal justices to preserve the individual mandate in Obamacare. I don't think he likes to stir up shit in the same way that Thomas and Alito are probably giddy with what they just did.
Thanks, and Simberto too for your answer.
On June 27 2022 14:39 plasmidghost wrote:
I honestly have no clue if this makes me a hypocrite or not given how much I hate electoral politics but I have voted in every primary and general election since I turned 18 in 2014. I remember in my first primary, I registered Republican to vote against the Tea Party candidates and none of the people I voted for won, and the outcomes I've wanted have been few and far between, but I still do it anyway
That's how democracy often works sadly. In The Netherlands we have a parliament with 18 or 19 parties and none of them represent my views very well (unbelievable I know :p). So I'm stuck between voting for a party which I don't really like all that much and whenever they do anything I often don't agree with it. It's still better than having no voice at all.
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On June 27 2022 15:41 Velr wrote:Show nested quote +On June 27 2022 14:39 LegalLord wrote:
It’s not clear if Democrats particularly care about doing something about this Joe v. Wade problem, or if they intend to use it as a wedge issue while merely paying lip service to doing anything meaningful about it. They’ve done the latter a lot; why not once more? Well... "We" don't know what the Democrats see or want with the issue (strategically) but we damn sure know what the Republicans want and do. This is really not hard.
There is only so far that radical « assume bad faith » attitude can take one without dumbing it everything down to an unproductive vaguely cynical attitude.
For all we know, democrats are horrified by what happened, but in LL’s book, they are always disingenuous, always lying and always cynical. Tells more about him than them really.
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Northern Ireland26279 Posts
On June 27 2022 15:41 Velr wrote:Show nested quote +On June 27 2022 14:39 LegalLord wrote:
It’s not clear if Democrats particularly care about doing something about this Joe v. Wade problem, or if they intend to use it as a wedge issue while merely paying lip service to doing anything meaningful about it. They’ve done the latter a lot; why not once more? Well... "We" don't know what the Democrats see or want with the issue (strategically) but we damn sure know what the Republicans want and do. This is really not hard.
The Dems had their shot to codify it and didn’t, so there is that.
They may have made the calculation that the GOP would use Roe as a thing to whip up their base in perpetuity without having the means/will to actually make it happen, which to be fair I thought was what they would do.
I thought we’d see things just continue in a form of stasis with both parties posturing as the defender/opponent of the Roe ruling in perpetuity for some political capital.
Hindsight can be a wonderful, very aggravating thing at times.
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Northern Ireland26279 Posts
On June 27 2022 14:33 Mohdoo wrote:
For races that already a lock for democrats, it makes sense to show your dissatisfaction by choosing to not vote for democrats. But when a race is competitive, I think the time to make your voice heard is the primary. If a progressive loses a primary to a more conservative democrat, I have a hard time blaming the party for that. It is kind of whiny to say "Well if my preferred candidate loses the primary, I'm gone". If conservative democrats did the same, we'd be in an equally bad situation. Once the primary is over, and if the race is competitive, it makes sense to just vote for the democrat. But I use my vote as a lazy form of activism if my preferred candidate doesn't win the primary.
Is it easy to register and vote in primaries? I’m assuming it’s not too arduous but we don’t have anything that comparable over here, very much a gap in me knowledge.
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On June 27 2022 15:41 Velr wrote:Show nested quote +On June 27 2022 14:39 LegalLord wrote:
It’s not clear if Democrats particularly care about doing something about this Joe v. Wade problem, or if they intend to use it as a wedge issue while merely paying lip service to doing anything meaningful about it. They’ve done the latter a lot; why not once more? Well... "We" don't know what the Democrats see or want with the issue (strategically) but we damn sure know what the Republicans want and do. This is really not hard.
It’s not that hard to suss out what the Democrat lines are if you look at states where they have radical control like in California.
For instance, they don’t have statewide universal healthcare, they could it the Democrats believed in it whatsoever, but they don’t actually believe in it.
Where do Democrats have power, have they acted in a way congruous with their stated beliefs with that power, that’s how you figure out what Democrats believe as a party, at least it lets you know where they draw their lines.
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On June 27 2022 20:10 WombaT wrote:Show nested quote +On June 27 2022 15:41 Velr wrote:On June 27 2022 14:39 LegalLord wrote:
It’s not clear if Democrats particularly care about doing something about this Joe v. Wade problem, or if they intend to use it as a wedge issue while merely paying lip service to doing anything meaningful about it. They’ve done the latter a lot; why not once more? Well... "We" don't know what the Democrats see or want with the issue (strategically) but we damn sure know what the Republicans want and do. This is really not hard. The Dems had their shot to codify it and didn’t, so there is that. They may have made the calculation that the GOP would use Roe as a thing to whip up their base in perpetuity without having the means/will to actually make it happen, which to be fair I thought was what they would do. I thought we’d see things just continue in a form of stasis with both parties posturing as the defender/opponent of the Roe ruling in perpetuity for some political capital. Hindsight can be a wonderful, very aggravating thing at times. When did the Democrats have a majority of members in the House and Senate who are pro-choice?
Because just a Democratic majority does nothing, remember that the parties are pre-formed coalitions with sometimes very different views. Not every Democrat is by definition pro-choice.
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On June 27 2022 20:39 Zambrah wrote:Show nested quote +On June 27 2022 15:41 Velr wrote:On June 27 2022 14:39 LegalLord wrote:
It’s not clear if Democrats particularly care about doing something about this Joe v. Wade problem, or if they intend to use it as a wedge issue while merely paying lip service to doing anything meaningful about it. They’ve done the latter a lot; why not once more? Well... "We" don't know what the Democrats see or want with the issue (strategically) but we damn sure know what the Republicans want and do. This is really not hard. It’s not that hard to suss out what the Democrat lines are if you look at states where they have radical control like in California. For instance, they don’t have statewide universal healthcare, they could it the Democrats believed in it whatsoever, but they don’t actually believe in it. Where do Democrats have power, have they acted in a way congruous with their stated beliefs with that power, that’s how you figure out what Democrats believe as a party, at least it lets you know where they draw their lines.
As far as I can tell folks are going to keep chanting that the only rational thing to do is vote Democrat even after Republicans stop counting their votes.
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Northern Ireland26279 Posts
On June 27 2022 21:01 Gorsameth wrote:Show nested quote +On June 27 2022 20:10 WombaT wrote:On June 27 2022 15:41 Velr wrote:On June 27 2022 14:39 LegalLord wrote:
It’s not clear if Democrats particularly care about doing something about this Joe v. Wade problem, or if they intend to use it as a wedge issue while merely paying lip service to doing anything meaningful about it. They’ve done the latter a lot; why not once more? Well... "We" don't know what the Democrats see or want with the issue (strategically) but we damn sure know what the Republicans want and do. This is really not hard. The Dems had their shot to codify it and didn’t, so there is that. They may have made the calculation that the GOP would use Roe as a thing to whip up their base in perpetuity without having the means/will to actually make it happen, which to be fair I thought was what they would do. I thought we’d see things just continue in a form of stasis with both parties posturing as the defender/opponent of the Roe ruling in perpetuity for some political capital. Hindsight can be a wonderful, very aggravating thing at times. When did the Democrats have a majority of members in the House and Senate who are pro-choice? Because just a Democratic majority does nothing, remember that the parties are pre-formed coalitions with sometimes very different views. Not every Democrat is by definition pro-choice.
Well indeed. They can be the pro-choice party, or a broad coalition containing divergent positions on the subject.
They cannot be both simultaneously.
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On June 27 2022 22:43 WombaT wrote:Show nested quote +On June 27 2022 21:01 Gorsameth wrote:On June 27 2022 20:10 WombaT wrote:On June 27 2022 15:41 Velr wrote:On June 27 2022 14:39 LegalLord wrote:
It’s not clear if Democrats particularly care about doing something about this Joe v. Wade problem, or if they intend to use it as a wedge issue while merely paying lip service to doing anything meaningful about it. They’ve done the latter a lot; why not once more? Well... "We" don't know what the Democrats see or want with the issue (strategically) but we damn sure know what the Republicans want and do. This is really not hard. The Dems had their shot to codify it and didn’t, so there is that. They may have made the calculation that the GOP would use Roe as a thing to whip up their base in perpetuity without having the means/will to actually make it happen, which to be fair I thought was what they would do. I thought we’d see things just continue in a form of stasis with both parties posturing as the defender/opponent of the Roe ruling in perpetuity for some political capital. Hindsight can be a wonderful, very aggravating thing at times. When did the Democrats have a majority of members in the House and Senate who are pro-choice? Because just a Democratic majority does nothing, remember that the parties are pre-formed coalitions with sometimes very different views. Not every Democrat is by definition pro-choice. Well indeed. They can be the pro-choice party, or a broad coalition containing divergent positions on the subject. They cannot be both simultaneously. That's the fundamental problem of the Democrats no? They are to broad a coalition, united more by not being Republicans then by shared political views. That's why they have such trouble finding common ground and getting much done while in power.
And there is really no natural force to resolve it because the more right wing Democrats can't go to the Republicans because that's strait off a cliff into fascism and the progressives can't split off without handing the country to the fascists.
That's why America 'needs' a strong sane Republican party. So that political discourse can be about left vs right in a meaningful political discussion, and not left+right vs fascists where there is no discussion possible because the other side are literal fascists who wish to end democracy.
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On June 27 2022 22:43 WombaT wrote:Show nested quote +On June 27 2022 21:01 Gorsameth wrote:On June 27 2022 20:10 WombaT wrote:On June 27 2022 15:41 Velr wrote:On June 27 2022 14:39 LegalLord wrote:
It’s not clear if Democrats particularly care about doing something about this Joe v. Wade problem, or if they intend to use it as a wedge issue while merely paying lip service to doing anything meaningful about it. They’ve done the latter a lot; why not once more? Well... "We" don't know what the Democrats see or want with the issue (strategically) but we damn sure know what the Republicans want and do. This is really not hard. The Dems had their shot to codify it and didn’t, so there is that. They may have made the calculation that the GOP would use Roe as a thing to whip up their base in perpetuity without having the means/will to actually make it happen, which to be fair I thought was what they would do. I thought we’d see things just continue in a form of stasis with both parties posturing as the defender/opponent of the Roe ruling in perpetuity for some political capital. Hindsight can be a wonderful, very aggravating thing at times. When did the Democrats have a majority of members in the House and Senate who are pro-choice? Because just a Democratic majority does nothing, remember that the parties are pre-formed coalitions with sometimes very different views. Not every Democrat is by definition pro-choice. Well indeed. They can be the pro-choice party, or a broad coalition containing divergent positions on the subject. They cannot be both simultaneously.
Being the pro-x party while being home to enough people that oppose x that it can never happen is basically their schtick. They're going to keep it up until/unless enough people stop falling for it/defending it.
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On June 27 2022 15:41 Velr wrote:Show nested quote +On June 27 2022 14:39 LegalLord wrote:
It’s not clear if Democrats particularly care about doing something about this Joe v. Wade problem, or if they intend to use it as a wedge issue while merely paying lip service to doing anything meaningful about it. They’ve done the latter a lot; why not once more? Well... "We" don't know what the Democrats see or want with the issue (strategically) but we damn sure know what the Republicans want and do. This is really not hard.
I dunno about that. Sure, that viewpoint has some good faux pragmatism appeal, and will be supported by weasels the world over who can be won out by a bit of cheap lesser evilism. But on the other hand, if the other guy wins, you'll live in a much more predictable world - they tell you what they intend to do, and then they do it, with superb efficiency. You could vote for the bad guy or do any number of other actions that run the risk of helping the bad guy (e.g. vote for only people who might actually make a difference but may spoil the electoral chances of the Democrats), and at least not sign up for personally supporting the party that wants to claim the moral high ground but not earn it. And at least we'll know exactly where that leads, rather than pretending we're doing something good by investing everything into a clearly ineffective attempt to hit the brakes and make believe that one day we'll try to reverse course.
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On June 27 2022 22:52 Gorsameth wrote:Show nested quote +On June 27 2022 22:43 WombaT wrote:On June 27 2022 21:01 Gorsameth wrote:On June 27 2022 20:10 WombaT wrote:On June 27 2022 15:41 Velr wrote:On June 27 2022 14:39 LegalLord wrote:
It’s not clear if Democrats particularly care about doing something about this Joe v. Wade problem, or if they intend to use it as a wedge issue while merely paying lip service to doing anything meaningful about it. They’ve done the latter a lot; why not once more? Well... "We" don't know what the Democrats see or want with the issue (strategically) but we damn sure know what the Republicans want and do. This is really not hard. The Dems had their shot to codify it and didn’t, so there is that. They may have made the calculation that the GOP would use Roe as a thing to whip up their base in perpetuity without having the means/will to actually make it happen, which to be fair I thought was what they would do. I thought we’d see things just continue in a form of stasis with both parties posturing as the defender/opponent of the Roe ruling in perpetuity for some political capital. Hindsight can be a wonderful, very aggravating thing at times. When did the Democrats have a majority of members in the House and Senate who are pro-choice? Because just a Democratic majority does nothing, remember that the parties are pre-formed coalitions with sometimes very different views. Not every Democrat is by definition pro-choice. Well indeed. They can be the pro-choice party, or a broad coalition containing divergent positions on the subject. They cannot be both simultaneously. That's the fundamental problem of the Democrats no? They are to broad a coalition, united more by not being Republicans then by shared political views. + Show Spoiler +That's why they have such trouble finding common ground and getting much done while in power.
And there is really no natural force to resolve it because the more right wing Democrats can't go to the Republicans because that's strait off a cliff into fascism and the progressives can't split off without handing the country to the fascists.
That's why America 'needs' a strong sane Republican party. So that political discourse can be about left vs right in a meaningful political discussion, and not left+right vs fascists where there is no discussion possible because the other side are literal fascists who wish to end democracy.
Important to recognize that this is/was a (recognizably bad imo) strategic choice, not some immutable physical law.
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