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Now that we have a new thread, in order to ensure that this thread continues to meet TL standards and follows the proper guidelines, we will be enforcing the rules in the OP more strictly. Be sure to give them a complete and thorough read before posting! NOTE: When providing a source, please provide a very brief summary on what it's about and what purpose it adds to the discussion. The supporting statement should clearly explain why the subject is relevant and needs to be discussed. Please follow this rule especially for tweets. Your supporting statement should always come BEFORE you provide the source. If you have any questions, comments, concern, or feedback regarding the USPMT, then please use this thread: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/website-feedback/510156-us-politics-thread | ||
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gobbledydook
Australia2605 Posts
On March 10 2022 16:45 Oukka wrote: Even in men's toilets the only dick I see is my own. I'm sure you can come up with a slightly less bad take on this if you try a bit. That’s because you only look at your own dick. this is of course not an issue that affects me, being a cis male. I am just saying it clearly affects other people who are now pushing back. | ||
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Simberto
Germany12086 Posts
On March 10 2022 16:43 gobbledydook wrote: Another problem is that many people are horrified of the idea that someone with a dick could go into a female restroom. From a moral standpoint it’s true that it should not be an issue, but you cannot deny that many people cannot accept this emotionally. I am sure that many women would be horrified if they saw a person with a penis in the female restroom and assume the worst, which is that person is a sexual predator. We cannot ignore these sentiments when deciding on rules about restrooms. Right now people feel offended and horrified and that is why they are pushing back against trans friendly rules. There really has to be a solution that makes everyone feel safe. But that is not what they would see. What they would see is a woman entering a stall in the womans restroom, closing the door, and leaving a few minutes later. You rarely see other peoples penises in a restroom. It might happen in a mans restroom when using the urinal, but they don't have those in womans restrooms as far as i know. This isn't a real problem either, it is a problem bigots have made up to try to justify their bigotry. The solution is for them to stop being bigots. | ||
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Jockmcplop
United Kingdom10026 Posts
On March 10 2022 16:43 gobbledydook wrote: Another problem is that many people are horrified of the idea that someone with a dick could go into a female restroom. From a moral standpoint it’s true that it should not be an issue, but you cannot deny that many people cannot accept this emotionally. I am sure that many women would be horrified if they saw a person with a penis in the female restroom and assume the worst, which is that person is a sexual predator. We cannot ignore these sentiments when deciding on rules about restrooms. Right now people feel offended and horrified and that is why they are pushing back against trans friendly rules. There really has to be a solution that makes everyone feel safe. The trans people I know are more worried about more serious issues like discrimination free access to employment, housing and other basics that everyone else gets, as well as the worry of having the shit kicked out of them on a night out. When people immediately fall back on arguments about sports and toilets, that is trivializing the problems that trans people have to face in a transphobic society. Not only that, but these less important but somehow more contentious issues always come up and always lead to more transphobia. | ||
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Severedevil
United States4839 Posts
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DarkPlasmaBall
United States46707 Posts
On March 10 2022 16:43 gobbledydook wrote: Another problem is that many people are horrified of the idea that someone with a dick could go into a female restroom. From a moral standpoint it’s true that it should not be an issue, but you cannot deny that many people cannot accept this emotionally. I am sure that many women would be horrified if they saw a person with a penis in the female restroom and assume the worst, which is that person is a sexual predator. We cannot ignore these sentiments when deciding on rules about restrooms. Right now people feel offended and horrified and that is why they are pushing back against trans friendly rules. There really has to be a solution that makes everyone feel safe. Is there any evidence that allowing trans people to use their preferred bathroom actually makes bathroom time less safe for cis people? | ||
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WombaT
Northern Ireland27478 Posts
1. People who raise the issue of trans people competing in women’s sports, and people who bash women’s sport. WNBA in your place, over here our flagship football highlights show that the BBC has, Match of the Day has included a lot of coverage of women’s football on their main social media feed, and without fail the comments are full of dismissiveness. Or the kind of folks who’ll watch women’s tennis if a hot chick is playing. 2. People who are concerned with sexual harassment in bathrooms, but generally engage in classic victim blaming in the more common areas where sexual harassment and assault actually do occur. This isn’t to say they aren’t meritorious of discussion, but their prominence as discussions is ridiculously disproportionate compared to the everyday issues that trans people face, and I’d prefer not to play that game. Not after plasmid has reiterated a fear of how things are going, to the degree they are making the huge decision to relocate their life because they don’t feel safe, much less equally valued in their own country. The sport issue is one of those in which, far as I can tell there are no easy, nor satisfactory to all people, solutions. Issues of bathrooms seem more cut and dry and outright disingenuous. We could have unisex bathrooms and it’ll be fine. I know places that have done this, many, many years ago before trans rights were really in the public consciousness. In the crudest possible sense again, doing stuff to placate people’s fears, irrational or rational without there being a factual basis in those fears is a rabbit hole folks don’t wanna go down. If a woman is feeling uneasy in a bathroom because someone with a penis is in there, it’s not because of that particular scenario, it’s because they’re alone around a stranger with a penis. There is more basis in banning dudes from walking in public late in the night, if people’s unease and fear of certain things is to be accounted in making policy. There’s way more sexual assault occurs in such scenarios to justify that. Aside from when I really overdo it and the weather is appalling, my female friends now accept I’m a dude, and that I like the walk and am not being rude/an unsafe idiot for turning down their offer of sharing a taxi, even if they pay the fare. They’re that used to refusing to let their female friends get home escorted that not having to do that felt weird for them. | ||
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NewSunshine
United States5938 Posts
On March 10 2022 16:48 gobbledydook wrote: That’s because you only look at your own dick. this is of course not an issue that affects me, being a cis male. I am just saying it clearly affects other people who are now pushing back. I'm trying to understand this. Your point is that people are horrified of something they're never going to see or encounter? Or that there's a subset of people who use public restrooms who make a point of looking at people's dicks, who would be distraught if they didn't see one? I kinda need to know where this is going, just for science. | ||
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EnDeR_
Spain2958 Posts
This is also a weird argument to make, i.e. sexual harassment is already illegal; doesn't matter where it happens. In other words, a guy walking into the women's toilet to sexually harass a woman is already breaking the law. | ||
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TheTenthDoc
United States9561 Posts
On March 10 2022 21:36 EnDeR_ wrote: The argument is normally coached around scare tactics. For instance, if you make a law allowing trans-women to use the women's toilet, what's there to stop men from using the women's toilet? With the implication that that would lead to more sexual harassment. This is also a weird argument to make, i.e. sexual harassment is already illegal; doesn't matter where it happens. In other words, a guy walking into the women's toilet to sexually harass a woman is already breaking the law. And gender identity of the person walking in is irrelevant; women walking into women's toilets to sexually harass women is also already breaking the law! | ||
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DarkPlasmaBall
United States46707 Posts
On March 10 2022 21:52 TheTenthDoc wrote: And gender identity of the person walking in is irrelevant; women walking into women's toilets to sexually harass women is also already breaking the law! Not to mention the fact that trans people experience harassment and assault disproportionately higher than cis people. Cis people worried about being attacked and raped by trans people is basically just backwards thinking. And to stop the harassment and assault that trans people experience, the solution is to educate, normalize, and include, not to victim blame and prevent trans people from using preferred bathrooms. | ||
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JimmiC
Canada22817 Posts
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NewSunshine
United States5938 Posts
On March 10 2022 22:18 DarkPlasmaBall wrote: Not to mention the fact that trans people experience harassment and assault disproportionately higher than cis people. Cis people worried about being attacked and raped by trans people is basically just backwards thinking. And to stop the harassment and assault that trans people experience, the solution is to educate, normalize, and include, not to victim blame and prevent trans people from using preferred bathrooms. I guess what it boils down to for me is that someone's genitalia are their own damn business, much like the sexual relations of queer people which so often come under fire. I can't see it, it doesn't affect me in the slightest, and it's between adults who understand what the hell they're doing. Leave them alone. Let the laws we have regarding sexual harassment address the Boogeyman of the bathrooms. Eventually one will find that trans people aren't a bunch of sexual predators who attack random people in bathrooms. Because apparently that needs saying and bears repeating. | ||
KwarK
United States44449 Posts
Use the bathroom that best fits your identity really is the best policy. | ||
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NewSunshine
United States5938 Posts
The argument of the bathrooms really doesn't hold up from any perspective. | ||
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brian
United States9644 Posts
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micronesia
United States24813 Posts
On March 11 2022 01:36 brian wrote: it’s an asinine conversation perpetuated by fear mongerers or those too under their influence to know better. Note how that conversation was first brought up in this thread today. Someone is discussing their disgust at needing to literally flee the country to escape discrimination and rights-nullification of trans Americans and another person asks them "So what do you think the rules should be for trans athletes?" | ||
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WombaT
Northern Ireland27478 Posts
On March 11 2022 01:43 micronesia wrote: Note how that conversation was first brought up in this thread today. Someone is discussing their disgust at needing to literally flee the country to escape discrimination and rights-nullification of trans Americans and another person asks them "So what do you think the rules should be for trans athletes?" Yes. I mean, time and a place. | ||
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Simberto
Germany12086 Posts
On March 11 2022 01:43 micronesia wrote: Note how that conversation was first brought up in this thread today. Someone is discussing their disgust at needing to literally flee the country to escape discrimination and rights-nullification of trans Americans and another person asks them "So what do you think the rules should be for trans athletes?" Yeah, i mentioned that above. It is weird how no matter what the topic regarding trans people is, it somehow always manages to be deflected towards bathrooms and sports. Imo, the much clearer and much more important issue is that trans people are people. Which means that they should be treated like people. Meaning generally accepting their right to exist, and all the other basic human rights and dignity stuff. Lets do that first. Then we can worry about the smaller details. | ||
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DarkPlasmaBall
United States46707 Posts
On March 11 2022 01:43 micronesia wrote: Note how that conversation was first brought up in this thread today. Someone is discussing their disgust at needing to literally flee the country to escape discrimination and rights-nullification of trans Americans and another person asks them "So what do you think the rules should be for trans athletes?" Yeah, I noticed that too. I don't know if it was intentionally bad faith, but that kind of subject change from plasmidghost saying "kids are being stolen from loving families and it's soon going to be made illegal for me and everyone else to be trans and get healthcare" to gobbledydook directly responding with "What's your opinion on male athletes that undergo transition to female" and then doubling down with "Another problem is that many people are horrified of the idea that someone with a dick could go into a female restroom" really epitomized the ignorance and privilege that some people demonstrate when they don't need to worry about being killed for simply existing. | ||
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JimmiC
Canada22817 Posts
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