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Now that we have a new thread, in order to ensure that this thread continues to meet TL standards and follows the proper guidelines, we will be enforcing the rules in the OP more strictly. Be sure to give them a complete and thorough read before posting! NOTE: When providing a source, please provide a very brief summary on what it's about and what purpose it adds to the discussion. The supporting statement should clearly explain why the subject is relevant and needs to be discussed. Please follow this rule especially for tweets.
Your supporting statement should always come BEFORE you provide the source.If you have any questions, comments, concern, or feedback regarding the USPMT, then please use this thread: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/website-feedback/510156-us-politics-thread |
On June 24 2021 05:09 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:Show nested quote +On June 24 2021 04:30 RenSC2 wrote:On June 24 2021 04:16 GreenHorizons wrote:
The US and Israel have once again set themselves apart from the world being the only countries voting to perpetuate the US's inhumane embargo/sanctions against Cuba.
Is Cuba stopping their practice of slavery? Maybe the real question should be why everyone else is so comfortable with Cuba’s system of slavery. Can you please elaborate on Cuba's slavery?
It’s been posted here before. Cuba sends doctors around the world in exchange for money. The money goes to the Cuban government rather than the doctors. Those doctors’ families are held hostage so that they do not run away and are forced to work.
@GH, I’ll admit to not being a fan of forced labor by prisoners, but not all prison labor is forced labor… they’re also paid for their labor and in many cases are learning a skill for when they are released.
However, even in the worst cases, they’re prisoners who are serving time for crimes. They are not innocent civilians being forced into slavery by a corrupt government.
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That labor is often paid at something like 2 cents/hr, so I wouldn't call it paid labor. It's not enough to pay for the water you need to drink to make it through a shift. And many are in there for non-violent crimes that really probably shouldn't be crimes we jail people for, i.e. anything marijuana-related. And that's before you look at racial disparity in how these enforcements are doled out. So, technically but not really to your points. It's a pretty fucked-up scene when you take a slightly close look at it.
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On June 24 2021 06:04 RenSC2 wrote:Show nested quote +On June 24 2021 05:09 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On June 24 2021 04:30 RenSC2 wrote:Is Cuba stopping their practice of slavery? Maybe the real question should be why everyone else is so comfortable with Cuba’s system of slavery. Can you please elaborate on Cuba's slavery? It’s been posted here before. Cuba sends doctors around the world in exchange for money. The money goes to the Cuban government rather than the doctors. Those doctors’ families are held hostage so that they do not run away and are forced to work. @GH, I’ll admit to not being a fan of forced labor by prisoners, but not all prison labor is forced labor… they’re also paid for their labor and in many cases are learning a skill for when they are released. However, even in the worst cases, they’re prisoners who are serving time for crimes. They are not innocent civilians being forced into slavery by a corrupt government.
Considering how many people the US imprisons compares to every other country in the world, i am pretty confident that a lot of those people are in fact innocent civilians forced into slavery, with the added downside of also being in a horrific US prison.
And if i force someone to work, and then pay them a few cents an hour, that is still slavery.
Your "learning a skill" comment is also pretty laughable. The US prison system is not designed for rehabilitation. If you want to see what a system designed for rehabilitating criminals actually looks like, there are a lot of those around in Europe. The US prison system is designed to create repeat customers, with an added side of "punishment".
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On June 24 2021 06:04 RenSC2 wrote:Show nested quote +On June 24 2021 05:09 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On June 24 2021 04:30 RenSC2 wrote:Is Cuba stopping their practice of slavery? Maybe the real question should be why everyone else is so comfortable with Cuba’s system of slavery. Can you please elaborate on Cuba's slavery? However, even in the worst cases, they’re prisoners who are serving time for crimes. They are not innocent civilians being forced into slavery by a corrupt government.
Being convicted of a crime does not justify slavery and slavery does not rehabilitate inmates and lower recidivism. I can't believe I even have to say this.
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If this is a conversation on the US Prison system as a whole, I have no interest in defending it. There are a lot of ways in which it could be better, especially in regards to rehabilitation. There are also a lot of people in there for crimes that would be better off as misdemeanors or not crimes at all.
But this started as a conversation on how bad the US is for keeping an embargo on Cuba the fascist country and Cuba the slavery country. Sometimes the US gets it right, even when it has to stand (nearly) alone and even if you consider it somewhat hypocritical.
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United States43664 Posts
On June 24 2021 07:24 RenSC2 wrote:
If this is a conversation on the US Prison system as a whole, I have no interest in defending it. There are a lot of ways in which it could be better, especially in regards to rehabilitation. There are also a lot of people in there for crimes that would be better off as misdemeanors or not crimes at all.
But this started as a conversation on how bad the US is for keeping an embargo on Cuba the fascist country and Cuba the slavery country. Sometimes the US gets it right, even when it has to stand (nearly) alone and even if you consider it somewhat hypocritical.
If I’m understanding correctly you’re saying that the US being bad too doesn’t make Cuba any less bad. Cuba is bad therefore Cuba should be subjected to an embargo, whether or not the US is just as bad. So you’d support an embargo of the US too?
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United States24756 Posts
On June 24 2021 05:13 m4ini wrote:Show nested quote +On June 24 2021 04:30 RenSC2 wrote:Is Cuba stopping their practice of slavery? Maybe the real question should be why everyone else is so comfortable with Cuba’s system of slavery. Boy oh boy do i have bad news for you... Apart from that, yeah. If 184 people vote against something that only two countries are in favour of, then you can take it pretty much for granted that you and your mate are the idiots in the room, not the 184 other people. You take "american exceptionalism" to a whole new level bud. Not in a good way either.
Although not necessarily true in this case, sometimes the 2 people are correct and the 184 are wrong. Being in the minority or extreme minority does not make you wrong. It certainly is a reason for the 2 to re-evaluate their position very carefully though.
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On June 24 2021 06:04 RenSC2 wrote:Show nested quote +On June 24 2021 05:09 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On June 24 2021 04:30 RenSC2 wrote:Is Cuba stopping their practice of slavery? Maybe the real question should be why everyone else is so comfortable with Cuba’s system of slavery. Can you please elaborate on Cuba's slavery? It’s been posted here before. Cuba sends doctors around the world in exchange for money. The money goes to the Cuban government rather than the doctors. Those doctors’ families are held hostage so that they do not run away and are forced to work. @GH, I’ll admit to not being a fan of forced labor by prisoners, but not all prison labor is forced labor… they’re also paid for their labor and in many cases are learning a skill for when they are released. However, even in the worst cases, they’re prisoners who are serving time for crimes. They are not innocent civilians being forced into slavery by a corrupt government.
Do you think an end to the embargo might also initiatiate the beginning of the end of the slavery described in your post? I wasn't aware of this, so would appreciate a source for the claim.
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On June 24 2021 07:34 KwarK wrote:Show nested quote +On June 24 2021 07:24 RenSC2 wrote:
If this is a conversation on the US Prison system as a whole, I have no interest in defending it. There are a lot of ways in which it could be better, especially in regards to rehabilitation. There are also a lot of people in there for crimes that would be better off as misdemeanors or not crimes at all.
But this started as a conversation on how bad the US is for keeping an embargo on Cuba the fascist country and Cuba the slavery country. Sometimes the US gets it right, even when it has to stand (nearly) alone and even if you consider it somewhat hypocritical. If I’m understanding correctly you’re saying that the US being bad too doesn’t make Cuba any less bad. Cuba is bad therefore Cuba should be subjected to an embargo, whether or not the US is just as bad. So you’d support an embargo of the US too?
I would say Cuba is significantly worse.
The US has a poor prison system, but we have democracy and the ability to change it. We have screwed up internationally (Iraq war), but overall the world has never been as peaceful and prosperous as it has been under US hegemony.
I’m okay with other countries trying to embargo the US to put pressure on us to improve. But I also recognize the position the world is in and that an embargo on the US would likely be much worse for our trade partners and they are fundamentally doing things for their self-interests and not the greater good.
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On June 24 2021 08:10 EnDeR_ wrote:Show nested quote +On June 24 2021 06:04 RenSC2 wrote:On June 24 2021 05:09 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On June 24 2021 04:30 RenSC2 wrote:Is Cuba stopping their practice of slavery? Maybe the real question should be why everyone else is so comfortable with Cuba’s system of slavery. Can you please elaborate on Cuba's slavery? It’s been posted here before. Cuba sends doctors around the world in exchange for money. The money goes to the Cuban government rather than the doctors. Those doctors’ families are held hostage so that they do not run away and are forced to work. @GH, I’ll admit to not being a fan of forced labor by prisoners, but not all prison labor is forced labor… they’re also paid for their labor and in many cases are learning a skill for when they are released. However, even in the worst cases, they’re prisoners who are serving time for crimes. They are not innocent civilians being forced into slavery by a corrupt government. Do you think an end to the embargo might also initiatiate the beginning of the end of the slavery described in your post? I wasn't aware of this, so would appreciate a source for the claim.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cuban_medical_internationalism#Reports_of_slavery_and_political_coercion
Wiki article with some information.
I would say the real goal needs to be the end of dictatorial rule in Cuba. As long as the government has all the power, similar abuses will always crop up, even if we stop this specific one.
I’m sure a Cuban revolution that resulted in democracy would instantly lift the embargo.
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The US does have a bad history of supporting allied dictators/monarchs with poor records on human rights. And yes, I don't doubt that a coup that installed a pro-US dictator in Cuba would be supported by the US. I think the alliance with Saudi Arabia is shameful and an area where we need to put maximum pressure for reform or we just stop being allies. We also have a bad tendency to burn ourselves by training military people from foreign countries.
Having said all that, there is not a secret cabal running America that is intent on dominating the world's resources. The US leadership is made up of representatives that come from a variety of backgrounds. Neither Barack Obama (I liked) nor Donald Trump (I hated) were part of the military industrial complex. Neither one gave a shit about what happened with Cuba in the 50s. Trump had extremely selfish ambitions and Obama seemed more benevolent... promoting democracy and such while being saddled with the US's history.
So yes, I do think there are reasons to dislike Cuba and want to put an embargo on them that has nothing to do with Batista. The average American couldn't even tell you who Batista is and I don't know that congress would do much better. The American people have much more of a problem with Communism in Cuba than historical issues in Cuba they don't even know about.
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On June 24 2021 06:04 RenSC2 wrote:Show nested quote +On June 24 2021 05:09 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On June 24 2021 04:30 RenSC2 wrote:Is Cuba stopping their practice of slavery? Maybe the real question should be why everyone else is so comfortable with Cuba’s system of slavery. Can you please elaborate on Cuba's slavery? It’s been posted here before. Cuba sends doctors around the world in exchange for money. The money goes to the Cuban government rather than the doctors. Those doctors’ families are held hostage so that they do not run away and are forced to work. @GH, I’ll admit to not being a fan of forced labor by prisoners, but not all prison labor is forced labor… they’re also paid for their labor and in many cases are learning a skill for when they are released. However, even in the worst cases, they’re prisoners who are serving time for crimes. They are not innocent civilians being forced into slavery by a corrupt government.
Just to be clear, are you saying prisoners should be treated worse than other people other than the fact that they are being imprisoned?
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On June 24 2021 10:48 Mohdoo wrote:Show nested quote +On June 24 2021 06:04 RenSC2 wrote:On June 24 2021 05:09 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On June 24 2021 04:30 RenSC2 wrote:Is Cuba stopping their practice of slavery? Maybe the real question should be why everyone else is so comfortable with Cuba’s system of slavery. Can you please elaborate on Cuba's slavery? It’s been posted here before. Cuba sends doctors around the world in exchange for money. The money goes to the Cuban government rather than the doctors. Those doctors’ families are held hostage so that they do not run away and are forced to work. @GH, I’ll admit to not being a fan of forced labor by prisoners, but not all prison labor is forced labor… they’re also paid for their labor and in many cases are learning a skill for when they are released. However, even in the worst cases, they’re prisoners who are serving time for crimes. They are not innocent civilians being forced into slavery by a corrupt government. Just to be clear, are you saying prisoners should be treated worse than other people other than the fact that they are being imprisoned?
The very fact that they are imprisoned means they are being treated worse. So the question is, should prisoners be treated worse than other people other than the fact that they're treated worse than other people?
Indirectly, yes. I expect reasonably good treatment of people outside of prison, better than large amounts of people actually get. However, resources are not infinite and almost nothing in life is absolute, it's always tradeoffs. I think we should prioritize resources to people who haven't committed crimes and spend less resources on people who have.
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On June 24 2021 11:14 RenSC2 wrote:Show nested quote +On June 24 2021 10:48 Mohdoo wrote:On June 24 2021 06:04 RenSC2 wrote:On June 24 2021 05:09 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On June 24 2021 04:30 RenSC2 wrote:Is Cuba stopping their practice of slavery? Maybe the real question should be why everyone else is so comfortable with Cuba’s system of slavery. Can you please elaborate on Cuba's slavery? It’s been posted here before. Cuba sends doctors around the world in exchange for money. The money goes to the Cuban government rather than the doctors. Those doctors’ families are held hostage so that they do not run away and are forced to work. @GH, I’ll admit to not being a fan of forced labor by prisoners, but not all prison labor is forced labor… they’re also paid for their labor and in many cases are learning a skill for when they are released. However, even in the worst cases, they’re prisoners who are serving time for crimes. They are not innocent civilians being forced into slavery by a corrupt government. Just to be clear, are you saying prisoners should be treated worse than other people other than the fact that they are being imprisoned? The very fact that they are imprisoned means they are being treated worse. So the question is, should prisoners be treated worse than other people other than the fact that they're treated worse than other people? Indirectly, yes. I expect reasonably good treatment of people outside of prison, better than large amounts of people actually get. However, resources are not infinite and almost nothing in life is absolute, it's always tradeoffs. I think we should prioritize resources to people who haven't committed crimes and spend less resources on people who have.
I have an easier time with this but still a couple issues.
First, as GH has reiterated many times: there is enough resources, the problem is that the wealthy won't let us have it. They are abusing their power. That being said, if you're a state government official and you've only got $10M, you need to decide how to spend it.
If I may use the trolley dilemma, I would never hesitate to let the person who I thought was less moral die instead of the person who is more moral, *SO LONG AS SOMEONE MUST DIE*, but that situation completely changes once it isn't necessary. I don't think being in prison should mean different moral standards apply to you. It all comes down to the idea of retribution. Most discussions like this have come down to a basic question: is retribution appropriate? People who see retribution as a form of justice generally think treating prisoners as sub-human is conditionally acceptable because they see a need for repentance/equivalence. Personally, I don't see the benefit. May I ask how you generally feel on the idea of retribution?
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On June 24 2021 06:04 RenSC2 wrote:Show nested quote +On June 24 2021 05:09 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On June 24 2021 04:30 RenSC2 wrote:Is Cuba stopping their practice of slavery? Maybe the real question should be why everyone else is so comfortable with Cuba’s system of slavery. Can you please elaborate on Cuba's slavery? It’s been posted here before. Cuba sends doctors around the world in exchange for money. The money goes to the Cuban government rather than the doctors. Those doctors’ families are held hostage so that they do not run away and are forced to work. @GH, I’ll admit to not being a fan of forced labor by prisoners, but not all prison labor is forced labor… they’re also paid for their labor and in many cases are learning a skill for when they are released. However, even in the worst cases, they’re prisoners who are serving time for crimes. They are not innocent civilians being forced into slavery by a corrupt government.
Calling Cuban doctors abroad 'slaves' is idiotic. They don't get the full salary but rather whatever fraction of it their government pays them? Boohoo, their education that allows them to be a doctor in the first place was sponsored by the state, and these international assignments are how they pay it back. Cuba is certainly not a happy wonderland, but this seriously ain't it. Their international doctor efforts have saved a lot of lives around the world, and inspired a lot of people. Trying to paint it into some sort of monstrously abusive system is pretty low.
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On June 24 2021 16:29 Mohdoo wrote:Show nested quote +On June 24 2021 11:14 RenSC2 wrote:On June 24 2021 10:48 Mohdoo wrote:On June 24 2021 06:04 RenSC2 wrote:On June 24 2021 05:09 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On June 24 2021 04:30 RenSC2 wrote:Is Cuba stopping their practice of slavery? Maybe the real question should be why everyone else is so comfortable with Cuba’s system of slavery. Can you please elaborate on Cuba's slavery? It’s been posted here before. Cuba sends doctors around the world in exchange for money. The money goes to the Cuban government rather than the doctors. Those doctors’ families are held hostage so that they do not run away and are forced to work. @GH, I’ll admit to not being a fan of forced labor by prisoners, but not all prison labor is forced labor… they’re also paid for their labor and in many cases are learning a skill for when they are released. However, even in the worst cases, they’re prisoners who are serving time for crimes. They are not innocent civilians being forced into slavery by a corrupt government. Just to be clear, are you saying prisoners should be treated worse than other people other than the fact that they are being imprisoned? The very fact that they are imprisoned means they are being treated worse. So the question is, should prisoners be treated worse than other people other than the fact that they're treated worse than other people? Indirectly, yes. I expect reasonably good treatment of people outside of prison, better than large amounts of people actually get. However, resources are not infinite and almost nothing in life is absolute, it's always tradeoffs. I think we should prioritize resources to people who haven't committed crimes and spend less resources on people who have. I have an easier time with this but still a couple issues. First, as GH has reiterated many times: there is enough resources, the problem is that the wealthy won't let us have it. They are abusing their power. That being said, if you're a state government official and you've only got $10M, you need to decide how to spend it. If I may use the trolley dilemma, I would never hesitate to let the person who I thought was less moral die instead of the person who is more moral, *SO LONG AS SOMEONE MUST DIE*, but that situation completely changes once it isn't necessary. I don't think being in prison should mean different moral standards apply to you. It all comes down to the idea of retribution. Most discussions like this have come down to a basic question: is retribution appropriate? People who see retribution as a form of justice generally think treating prisoners as sub-human is conditionally acceptable because they see a need for repentance/equivalence. Personally, I don't see the benefit. May I ask how you generally feel on the idea of retribution?
I think prison should be an unpleasant place, it's supposed to be a deterrent. The last thing you'd want is that people enjoy being in prison.
That being said I don't think the humans should be treated as subhumans in any way, it just shouldn't be nice to be in prison.
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On June 24 2021 16:29 Mohdoo wrote:Show nested quote +On June 24 2021 11:14 RenSC2 wrote:On June 24 2021 10:48 Mohdoo wrote:On June 24 2021 06:04 RenSC2 wrote:On June 24 2021 05:09 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On June 24 2021 04:30 RenSC2 wrote:Is Cuba stopping their practice of slavery? Maybe the real question should be why everyone else is so comfortable with Cuba’s system of slavery. Can you please elaborate on Cuba's slavery? It’s been posted here before. Cuba sends doctors around the world in exchange for money. The money goes to the Cuban government rather than the doctors. Those doctors’ families are held hostage so that they do not run away and are forced to work. @GH, I’ll admit to not being a fan of forced labor by prisoners, but not all prison labor is forced labor… they’re also paid for their labor and in many cases are learning a skill for when they are released. However, even in the worst cases, they’re prisoners who are serving time for crimes. They are not innocent civilians being forced into slavery by a corrupt government. Just to be clear, are you saying prisoners should be treated worse than other people other than the fact that they are being imprisoned? The very fact that they are imprisoned means they are being treated worse. So the question is, should prisoners be treated worse than other people other than the fact that they're treated worse than other people? Indirectly, yes. I expect reasonably good treatment of people outside of prison, better than large amounts of people actually get. However, resources are not infinite and almost nothing in life is absolute, it's always tradeoffs. I think we should prioritize resources to people who haven't committed crimes and spend less resources on people who have. I have an easier time with this but still a couple issues. First, as GH has reiterated many times: there is enough resources, the problem is that the wealthy won't let us have it. They are abusing their power. That being said, if you're a state government official and you've only got $10M, you need to decide how to spend it. If I may use the trolley dilemma, I would never hesitate to let the person who I thought was less moral die instead of the person who is more moral, *SO LONG AS SOMEONE MUST DIE*, but that situation completely changes once it isn't necessary. I don't think being in prison should mean different moral standards apply to you. It all comes down to the idea of retribution. Most discussions like this have come down to a basic question: is retribution appropriate? People who see retribution as a form of justice generally think treating prisoners as sub-human is conditionally acceptable because they see a need for repentance/equivalence. Personally, I don't see the benefit. May I ask how you generally feel on the idea of retribution?
The idea that there are enough resources is questionable and a growing problem. The biggest problem appears to be finite water resources vs population growth. Desalination is extremely energy hungry and energy production vs the Earth's ability to handle greenhouse gasses is another major problem. I will completely agree that the resources are not well distributed and should be distributed better. However, the government has to work with what they've got and the people are generally not in favor of giving the government more to work with.
For example, in my home state of Illinois, on the last ballot we had a referendum that would allow the IL income tax to be progressive and no longer a flat rate (I voted for it). Our governor had won the prior election with that being part of his platform, but needed the referendum to actually enact it. The initial plan would only raise taxes on those making over $200k a year and would actually cut taxes for poor people. It failed.
A relentless TV campaign against it was enough to sway people (there was also a relentless pro campaign). They claimed that the referendum would allow the government to raise taxes and do you trust the government to not do it? The commercials ignored that the government can already raise taxes, they just have to raise the flat tax rate and can not single out the rich. The specter of tax raises killed it in a heavy blue state (although we're not as blue as people think and have had a lot of Republican governors). A majority of the voters here don't want to fund the government.
Now take those finite resources and ask yourself, do you want to spend them on keeping schools and hospitals open or on prisoners? Seems like an easy question. Would it help to have the prisoners fund their own imprisonment? Yes. Give prisoners the option to work (with incentives and pay and job training) and let the prison use part of the proceeds from their work to offset the cost of their imprisonment. However, I think for-profit prisons are gross.
The question of Retribution is harder. I don't see most prisoners as sub human. There are some real monstrous people though who I think are irredeemable... I would generally support the death penalty in those cases, but then we run into issues of potentially using the death penalty on innocent people and things get much more problematic. That's a whole other issue where I support the death penalty in theory, but not in practice.
However, I don't know if I believe in the death penalty as "retribution". More like, I don't find any value in this person being alive. If we can't kill them, then I'd rather just spend as little resources on them as possible. Of course, that's for the worst of the worst people who I'd never trust to live in society, no matter how long they've been in prison.
For a typical prisoner, I am mostly interested in them becoming productive members of society. I believe a lot of those people need structure and the development of good habits. Something like a military bootcamp, but with job training/doing instead of combat training.
So I'd say my general feelings towards prison are not retribution based.
However, if I feel like someone wrongs me personally, I tend to feel retribution is justified... although usually not worth it, I'd rather not end up in prison myself.
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On June 24 2021 17:47 RenSC2 wrote:Show nested quote +On June 24 2021 16:29 Mohdoo wrote:On June 24 2021 11:14 RenSC2 wrote:On June 24 2021 10:48 Mohdoo wrote:On June 24 2021 06:04 RenSC2 wrote:On June 24 2021 05:09 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On June 24 2021 04:30 RenSC2 wrote:Is Cuba stopping their practice of slavery? Maybe the real question should be why everyone else is so comfortable with Cuba’s system of slavery. Can you please elaborate on Cuba's slavery? It’s been posted here before. Cuba sends doctors around the world in exchange for money. The money goes to the Cuban government rather than the doctors. Those doctors’ families are held hostage so that they do not run away and are forced to work. @GH, I’ll admit to not being a fan of forced labor by prisoners, but not all prison labor is forced labor… they’re also paid for their labor and in many cases are learning a skill for when they are released. However, even in the worst cases, they’re prisoners who are serving time for crimes. They are not innocent civilians being forced into slavery by a corrupt government. Just to be clear, are you saying prisoners should be treated worse than other people other than the fact that they are being imprisoned? The very fact that they are imprisoned means they are being treated worse. So the question is, should prisoners be treated worse than other people other than the fact that they're treated worse than other people? Indirectly, yes. I expect reasonably good treatment of people outside of prison, better than large amounts of people actually get. However, resources are not infinite and almost nothing in life is absolute, it's always tradeoffs. I think we should prioritize resources to people who haven't committed crimes and spend less resources on people who have. I have an easier time with this but still a couple issues. First, as GH has reiterated many times: there is enough resources, the problem is that the wealthy won't let us have it. They are abusing their power. That being said, if you're a state government official and you've only got $10M, you need to decide how to spend it. If I may use the trolley dilemma, I would never hesitate to let the person who I thought was less moral die instead of the person who is more moral, *SO LONG AS SOMEONE MUST DIE*, but that situation completely changes once it isn't necessary. I don't think being in prison should mean different moral standards apply to you. It all comes down to the idea of retribution. Most discussions like this have come down to a basic question: is retribution appropriate? People who see retribution as a form of justice generally think treating prisoners as sub-human is conditionally acceptable because they see a need for repentance/equivalence. Personally, I don't see the benefit. May I ask how you generally feel on the idea of retribution? The idea that there are enough resources is questionable and a growing problem. The biggest problem appears to be finite water resources vs population growth. Desalination is extremely energy hungry and energy production vs the Earth's ability to handle greenhouse gasses is another major problem. I will completely agree that the resources are not well distributed and should be distributed better. However, the government has to work with what they've got and the people are generally not in favor of giving the government more to work with. For example, in my home state of Illinois, on the last ballot we had a referendum that would allow the IL income tax to be progressive and no longer a flat rate (I voted for it). Our governor had won the prior election with that being part of his platform, but needed the referendum to actually enact it. The initial plan would only raise taxes on those making over $200k a year and would actually cut taxes for poor people. It failed. A relentless TV campaign against it was enough to sway people (there was also a relentless pro campaign). They claimed that the referendum would allow the government to raise taxes and do you trust the government to not do it? The commercials ignored that the government can already raise taxes, they just have to raise the flat tax rate and can not single out the rich. The specter of tax raises killed it in a heavy blue state (although we're not as blue as people think and have had a lot of Republican governors). A majority of the voters here don't want to fund the government. Now take those finite resources and ask yourself, do you want to spend them on keeping schools and hospitals open or on prisoners? Seems like an easy question. Would it help to have the prisoners fund their own imprisonment? Yes. Give prisoners the option to work (with incentives and pay and job training) and let the prison use part of the proceeds from their work to offset the cost of their imprisonment. However, I think for-profit prisons are gross.
If you want to save money on prisons, the easiest way to do so is putting less people in prison. This is the step that the US is really, really bad at. They put a lot of people in prison for a long period of time, thus they spend a lot of money on prisons.
Also, i want to contest the idea that spending money on prison being better at rehabilitating people (which usually also means more humane) is actually spending money.
Simply compare the cost to society of a person who leaves prison, reintegrates in society and starts actually paying taxes to the cost of that same person leaving prison, staying criminal, probably being more criminal than before, doing a bunch of crimes and then eventually ending up in prison again and again.
By having a humane prison system focused on rehabilitation, you can actually save a lot of money, simply because the prisoners don't return as often.
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On June 24 2021 17:55 Simberto wrote:Show nested quote +On June 24 2021 17:47 RenSC2 wrote:On June 24 2021 16:29 Mohdoo wrote:On June 24 2021 11:14 RenSC2 wrote:On June 24 2021 10:48 Mohdoo wrote:On June 24 2021 06:04 RenSC2 wrote:On June 24 2021 05:09 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On June 24 2021 04:30 RenSC2 wrote:Is Cuba stopping their practice of slavery? Maybe the real question should be why everyone else is so comfortable with Cuba’s system of slavery. Can you please elaborate on Cuba's slavery? It’s been posted here before. Cuba sends doctors around the world in exchange for money. The money goes to the Cuban government rather than the doctors. Those doctors’ families are held hostage so that they do not run away and are forced to work. @GH, I’ll admit to not being a fan of forced labor by prisoners, but not all prison labor is forced labor… they’re also paid for their labor and in many cases are learning a skill for when they are released. However, even in the worst cases, they’re prisoners who are serving time for crimes. They are not innocent civilians being forced into slavery by a corrupt government. Just to be clear, are you saying prisoners should be treated worse than other people other than the fact that they are being imprisoned? The very fact that they are imprisoned means they are being treated worse. So the question is, should prisoners be treated worse than other people other than the fact that they're treated worse than other people? Indirectly, yes. I expect reasonably good treatment of people outside of prison, better than large amounts of people actually get. However, resources are not infinite and almost nothing in life is absolute, it's always tradeoffs. I think we should prioritize resources to people who haven't committed crimes and spend less resources on people who have. I have an easier time with this but still a couple issues. First, as GH has reiterated many times: there is enough resources, the problem is that the wealthy won't let us have it. They are abusing their power. That being said, if you're a state government official and you've only got $10M, you need to decide how to spend it. If I may use the trolley dilemma, I would never hesitate to let the person who I thought was less moral die instead of the person who is more moral, *SO LONG AS SOMEONE MUST DIE*, but that situation completely changes once it isn't necessary. I don't think being in prison should mean different moral standards apply to you. It all comes down to the idea of retribution. Most discussions like this have come down to a basic question: is retribution appropriate? People who see retribution as a form of justice generally think treating prisoners as sub-human is conditionally acceptable because they see a need for repentance/equivalence. Personally, I don't see the benefit. May I ask how you generally feel on the idea of retribution? The idea that there are enough resources is questionable and a growing problem. The biggest problem appears to be finite water resources vs population growth. Desalination is extremely energy hungry and energy production vs the Earth's ability to handle greenhouse gasses is another major problem. I will completely agree that the resources are not well distributed and should be distributed better. However, the government has to work with what they've got and the people are generally not in favor of giving the government more to work with. For example, in my home state of Illinois, on the last ballot we had a referendum that would allow the IL income tax to be progressive and no longer a flat rate (I voted for it). Our governor had won the prior election with that being part of his platform, but needed the referendum to actually enact it. The initial plan would only raise taxes on those making over $200k a year and would actually cut taxes for poor people. It failed. A relentless TV campaign against it was enough to sway people (there was also a relentless pro campaign). They claimed that the referendum would allow the government to raise taxes and do you trust the government to not do it? The commercials ignored that the government can already raise taxes, they just have to raise the flat tax rate and can not single out the rich. The specter of tax raises killed it in a heavy blue state (although we're not as blue as people think and have had a lot of Republican governors). A majority of the voters here don't want to fund the government. Now take those finite resources and ask yourself, do you want to spend them on keeping schools and hospitals open or on prisoners? Seems like an easy question. Would it help to have the prisoners fund their own imprisonment? Yes. Give prisoners the option to work (with incentives and pay and job training) and let the prison use part of the proceeds from their work to offset the cost of their imprisonment. However, I think for-profit prisons are gross. If you want to save money on prisons, the easiest way to do so is putting less people in prison. This is the step that the US is really, really bad at. They put a lot of people in prison for a long period of time, thus they spend a lot of money on prisons. Also, i want to contest the idea that spending money on prison being better at rehabilitating people (which usually also means more humane) is actually spending money. Simply compare the cost to society of a person who leaves prison, reintegrates in society and starts actually paying taxes to the cost of that same person leaving prison, staying criminal, probably being more criminal than before, doing a bunch of crimes and then eventually ending up in prison again and again. By having a humane prison system focused on rehabilitation, you can actually save a lot of money, simply because the prisoners don't return as often.
I don't think I disagree with anything you said there.
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