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On June 24 2021 17:05 Archeon wrote:Show nested quote +On June 24 2021 16:29 Mohdoo wrote:On June 24 2021 11:14 RenSC2 wrote:On June 24 2021 10:48 Mohdoo wrote:On June 24 2021 06:04 RenSC2 wrote:On June 24 2021 05:09 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On June 24 2021 04:30 RenSC2 wrote:On June 24 2021 04:16 GreenHorizons wrote:
The US and Israel have once again set themselves apart from the world being the only countries voting to perpetuate the US's inhumane embargo/sanctions against Cuba.
Is Cuba stopping their practice of slavery? Maybe the real question should be why everyone else is so comfortable with Cuba’s system of slavery. Can you please elaborate on Cuba's slavery? It’s been posted here before. Cuba sends doctors around the world in exchange for money. The money goes to the Cuban government rather than the doctors. Those doctors’ families are held hostage so that they do not run away and are forced to work. @GH, I’ll admit to not being a fan of forced labor by prisoners, but not all prison labor is forced labor… they’re also paid for their labor and in many cases are learning a skill for when they are released. However, even in the worst cases, they’re prisoners who are serving time for crimes. They are not innocent civilians being forced into slavery by a corrupt government. Just to be clear, are you saying prisoners should be treated worse than other people other than the fact that they are being imprisoned? The very fact that they are imprisoned means they are being treated worse. So the question is, should prisoners be treated worse than other people other than the fact that they're treated worse than other people? Indirectly, yes. I expect reasonably good treatment of people outside of prison, better than large amounts of people actually get. However, resources are not infinite and almost nothing in life is absolute, it's always tradeoffs. I think we should prioritize resources to people who haven't committed crimes and spend less resources on people who have. I have an easier time with this but still a couple issues. First, as GH has reiterated many times: there is enough resources, the problem is that the wealthy won't let us have it. They are abusing their power. That being said, if you're a state government official and you've only got $10M, you need to decide how to spend it. If I may use the trolley dilemma, I would never hesitate to let the person who I thought was less moral die instead of the person who is more moral, *SO LONG AS SOMEONE MUST DIE*, but that situation completely changes once it isn't necessary. I don't think being in prison should mean different moral standards apply to you. It all comes down to the idea of retribution. Most discussions like this have come down to a basic question: is retribution appropriate? People who see retribution as a form of justice generally think treating prisoners as sub-human is conditionally acceptable because they see a need for repentance/equivalence. Personally, I don't see the benefit. May I ask how you generally feel on the idea of retribution? I think prison should be an unpleasant place, it's supposed to be a deterrent. The last thing you'd want is that people enjoy being in prison. That being said I don't think the humans should be treated as subhumans in any way, it just shouldn't be nice to be in prison. And yet the US has the most people in prison per capita in the world. If it is supposed to be a deterrent its a complete and utter failure.
Meanwhile rehabilitation appears to be working decently well in the places where it is practiced.
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On June 24 2021 18:16 Gorsameth wrote:Show nested quote +On June 24 2021 17:05 Archeon wrote:On June 24 2021 16:29 Mohdoo wrote:On June 24 2021 11:14 RenSC2 wrote:On June 24 2021 10:48 Mohdoo wrote:On June 24 2021 06:04 RenSC2 wrote:On June 24 2021 05:09 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On June 24 2021 04:30 RenSC2 wrote:Is Cuba stopping their practice of slavery? Maybe the real question should be why everyone else is so comfortable with Cuba’s system of slavery. Can you please elaborate on Cuba's slavery? It’s been posted here before. Cuba sends doctors around the world in exchange for money. The money goes to the Cuban government rather than the doctors. Those doctors’ families are held hostage so that they do not run away and are forced to work. @GH, I’ll admit to not being a fan of forced labor by prisoners, but not all prison labor is forced labor… they’re also paid for their labor and in many cases are learning a skill for when they are released. However, even in the worst cases, they’re prisoners who are serving time for crimes. They are not innocent civilians being forced into slavery by a corrupt government. Just to be clear, are you saying prisoners should be treated worse than other people other than the fact that they are being imprisoned? The very fact that they are imprisoned means they are being treated worse. So the question is, should prisoners be treated worse than other people other than the fact that they're treated worse than other people? Indirectly, yes. I expect reasonably good treatment of people outside of prison, better than large amounts of people actually get. However, resources are not infinite and almost nothing in life is absolute, it's always tradeoffs. I think we should prioritize resources to people who haven't committed crimes and spend less resources on people who have. I have an easier time with this but still a couple issues. First, as GH has reiterated many times: there is enough resources, the problem is that the wealthy won't let us have it. They are abusing their power. That being said, if you're a state government official and you've only got $10M, you need to decide how to spend it. If I may use the trolley dilemma, I would never hesitate to let the person who I thought was less moral die instead of the person who is more moral, *SO LONG AS SOMEONE MUST DIE*, but that situation completely changes once it isn't necessary. I don't think being in prison should mean different moral standards apply to you. It all comes down to the idea of retribution. Most discussions like this have come down to a basic question: is retribution appropriate? People who see retribution as a form of justice generally think treating prisoners as sub-human is conditionally acceptable because they see a need for repentance/equivalence. Personally, I don't see the benefit. May I ask how you generally feel on the idea of retribution? I think prison should be an unpleasant place, it's supposed to be a deterrent. The last thing you'd want is that people enjoy being in prison. That being said I don't think the humans should be treated as subhumans in any way, it just shouldn't be nice to be in prison. And yet the US has the most people in prison per capita in the world. If it is supposed to be a deterrent its a complete and utter failure. Meanwhile rehabilitation appears to be working decently well in the places where it is practiced.
I wasn't defending US prisons, I think privatizing prisons is a retarded idea and that rehabilitation is one of the most important parts of a prison. And yeah there are some really dumb US laws that can get you into prison.
I'm just saying that prison shouldn't be a place people enjoy to be in. It shouldn't be extremely unpleasant, but it needs to unpleasant enough that people want to get out and don't want to go back. Prison should be a deterrent, although it should also be a rehabilitation and safety institution.
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On June 24 2021 18:33 Archeon wrote:Show nested quote +On June 24 2021 18:16 Gorsameth wrote:On June 24 2021 17:05 Archeon wrote:On June 24 2021 16:29 Mohdoo wrote:On June 24 2021 11:14 RenSC2 wrote:On June 24 2021 10:48 Mohdoo wrote:On June 24 2021 06:04 RenSC2 wrote:On June 24 2021 05:09 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On June 24 2021 04:30 RenSC2 wrote:Is Cuba stopping their practice of slavery? Maybe the real question should be why everyone else is so comfortable with Cuba’s system of slavery. Can you please elaborate on Cuba's slavery? It’s been posted here before. Cuba sends doctors around the world in exchange for money. The money goes to the Cuban government rather than the doctors. Those doctors’ families are held hostage so that they do not run away and are forced to work. @GH, I’ll admit to not being a fan of forced labor by prisoners, but not all prison labor is forced labor… they’re also paid for their labor and in many cases are learning a skill for when they are released. However, even in the worst cases, they’re prisoners who are serving time for crimes. They are not innocent civilians being forced into slavery by a corrupt government. Just to be clear, are you saying prisoners should be treated worse than other people other than the fact that they are being imprisoned? The very fact that they are imprisoned means they are being treated worse. So the question is, should prisoners be treated worse than other people other than the fact that they're treated worse than other people? Indirectly, yes. I expect reasonably good treatment of people outside of prison, better than large amounts of people actually get. However, resources are not infinite and almost nothing in life is absolute, it's always tradeoffs. I think we should prioritize resources to people who haven't committed crimes and spend less resources on people who have. I have an easier time with this but still a couple issues. First, as GH has reiterated many times: there is enough resources, the problem is that the wealthy won't let us have it. They are abusing their power. That being said, if you're a state government official and you've only got $10M, you need to decide how to spend it. If I may use the trolley dilemma, I would never hesitate to let the person who I thought was less moral die instead of the person who is more moral, *SO LONG AS SOMEONE MUST DIE*, but that situation completely changes once it isn't necessary. I don't think being in prison should mean different moral standards apply to you. It all comes down to the idea of retribution. Most discussions like this have come down to a basic question: is retribution appropriate? People who see retribution as a form of justice generally think treating prisoners as sub-human is conditionally acceptable because they see a need for repentance/equivalence. Personally, I don't see the benefit. May I ask how you generally feel on the idea of retribution? I think prison should be an unpleasant place, it's supposed to be a deterrent. The last thing you'd want is that people enjoy being in prison. That being said I don't think the humans should be treated as subhumans in any way, it just shouldn't be nice to be in prison. And yet the US has the most people in prison per capita in the world. If it is supposed to be a deterrent its a complete and utter failure. Meanwhile rehabilitation appears to be working decently well in the places where it is practiced. I wasn't defending US prisons, I think privatizing prisons is a retarded idea and that rehabilitation is one of the most important parts of a prison. And yeah there are some really dumb US laws that can get you into prison. I'm just saying that prison shouldn't be a place people enjoy to be in. It shouldn't be extremely unpleasant, but it needs to unpleasant enough that people want to get out and don't want to go back.
Being locked up and unable to choose where you are at what point in time is usually unpleasant enough.
And if prison is really nicer than life outside of prison, your society sucks and you should fix life outside of prison.
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I think the main problem here is emminently cultural. Lots of americans I’ve talked to or read have a retributive idea of justice, and the idea that the bad guy might also be a victim - that life is deterministic at all in fact - is completely foreign to a lot of them.
I know it’s my take on a lot of issues, but nothing will change unless people start to think differently. The problem here is not that american democracy doesn’t work, but that it works all too well. Democracy is great, but if people have terrible ideas, it produces terrible results.
It’s not to say it’s not a cause that has to be fought politically though. A lot can be done, and the responsibility of a politician in a democracy is not only to reflect the will of the people, but to influence it. But it’s delicate..
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There's significant overlap between the belief in homo economicus and punitive/retributive views of justice. It's not a coincidence they are both so intimately entangled in the identity of the US and many of its citizens.
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On June 24 2021 19:32 GreenHorizons wrote:
There's significant overlap between the belief in homo economicus and punitive/retributive views of justice. It's not a coincidence they are both so intimately entangled in the identity of the US and many of its citizens.
This is more or less a key theory underlying a summer seminar I’m taking, the gist of which is a critical look at all the ways neoliberalism has inserted itself into the logic and structure of daily American life
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On June 24 2021 19:32 GreenHorizons wrote:
There's significant overlap between the belief in homo economicus and punitive/retributive views of justice. It's not a coincidence they are both so intimately entangled in the identity of the US and many of its citizens.
Well, they are both consequences of protestant (rather puritan I guess) ethics, which are at the fundation of american values. It’s quite a fascinating subject.
On June 24 2021 20:37 farvacola wrote:Show nested quote +On June 24 2021 19:32 GreenHorizons wrote:
There's significant overlap between the belief in homo economicus and punitive/retributive views of justice. It's not a coincidence they are both so intimately entangled in the identity of the US and many of its citizens. This is more or less a key theory underlying a summer seminar I’m taking, the gist of which is a critical look at all the ways neoliberalism has inserted itself into the logic and structure of daily American life
Those cultural traits precede neo liberalism by a few centuries though. I think you too might be conflating cause and effect.
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On June 24 2021 20:38 Biff The Understudy wrote:Show nested quote +On June 24 2021 19:32 GreenHorizons wrote:
There's significant overlap between the belief in homo economicus and punitive/retributive views of justice. It's not a coincidence they are both so intimately entangled in the identity of the US and many of its citizens. Well, they are both consequences of protestant (rather puritan I guess) ethics, which are at the fundation of american values. It’s quite a fascinating subject.
Folks teaching US history here do not like to discuss how a great number of the folks that settled the original thirteen colonies were batshit religious extremists.
Regarding your added response, Biff, the term neoliberalism is not intended to define or root these dynamics, it’s merely a holistic prescriptive label that conveniently explains the ways concepts like markets, the dignity of work, and efficiency have deeply entrenched themselves in the basic functioning of US society. The hard and fast item itself really took off in the 70s.
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On June 24 2021 18:33 Archeon wrote:Show nested quote +On June 24 2021 18:16 Gorsameth wrote:On June 24 2021 17:05 Archeon wrote:On June 24 2021 16:29 Mohdoo wrote:On June 24 2021 11:14 RenSC2 wrote:On June 24 2021 10:48 Mohdoo wrote:On June 24 2021 06:04 RenSC2 wrote:On June 24 2021 05:09 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On June 24 2021 04:30 RenSC2 wrote:Is Cuba stopping their practice of slavery? Maybe the real question should be why everyone else is so comfortable with Cuba’s system of slavery. Can you please elaborate on Cuba's slavery? It’s been posted here before. Cuba sends doctors around the world in exchange for money. The money goes to the Cuban government rather than the doctors. Those doctors’ families are held hostage so that they do not run away and are forced to work. @GH, I’ll admit to not being a fan of forced labor by prisoners, but not all prison labor is forced labor… they’re also paid for their labor and in many cases are learning a skill for when they are released. However, even in the worst cases, they’re prisoners who are serving time for crimes. They are not innocent civilians being forced into slavery by a corrupt government. Just to be clear, are you saying prisoners should be treated worse than other people other than the fact that they are being imprisoned? The very fact that they are imprisoned means they are being treated worse. So the question is, should prisoners be treated worse than other people other than the fact that they're treated worse than other people? Indirectly, yes. I expect reasonably good treatment of people outside of prison, better than large amounts of people actually get. However, resources are not infinite and almost nothing in life is absolute, it's always tradeoffs. I think we should prioritize resources to people who haven't committed crimes and spend less resources on people who have. I have an easier time with this but still a couple issues. First, as GH has reiterated many times: there is enough resources, the problem is that the wealthy won't let us have it. They are abusing their power. That being said, if you're a state government official and you've only got $10M, you need to decide how to spend it. If I may use the trolley dilemma, I would never hesitate to let the person who I thought was less moral die instead of the person who is more moral, *SO LONG AS SOMEONE MUST DIE*, but that situation completely changes once it isn't necessary. I don't think being in prison should mean different moral standards apply to you. It all comes down to the idea of retribution. Most discussions like this have come down to a basic question: is retribution appropriate? People who see retribution as a form of justice generally think treating prisoners as sub-human is conditionally acceptable because they see a need for repentance/equivalence. Personally, I don't see the benefit. May I ask how you generally feel on the idea of retribution? I think prison should be an unpleasant place, it's supposed to be a deterrent. The last thing you'd want is that people enjoy being in prison. That being said I don't think the humans should be treated as subhumans in any way, it just shouldn't be nice to be in prison. And yet the US has the most people in prison per capita in the world. If it is supposed to be a deterrent its a complete and utter failure. Meanwhile rehabilitation appears to be working decently well in the places where it is practiced. I wasn't defending US prisons, I think privatizing prisons is a retarded idea and that rehabilitation is one of the most important parts of a prison. And yeah there are some really dumb US laws that can get you into prison. I'm just saying that prison shouldn't be a place people enjoy to be in. It shouldn't be extremely unpleasant, but it needs to unpleasant enough that people want to get out and don't want to go back. Prison should be a deterrent, although it should also be a rehabilitation and safety institution. If life in prison is better then life out of prison the problem isn't how good prison life is, its how shit life outside it is.
No one wants to go on vacation to jail, no matter if you have a playstation in your cell or not.
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Yeah, the punishment is being deprived of freedom. Not to be locked in a dystopian hell to be raped and beaten by other inmates and treated like a dog and dishumanized as much as possible by the guardians.
Generally speaking, I find the lack of compassion of people who are fine with american prisons being such hellish nightmares really, really disturbing.
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Norway28733 Posts
Ya, turn prisons into 5 star hotels and spending more than a week inside one sounds dreadful either way, and it's a strong indictment of society as a whole if that's not true.
Norway is famous for its comfortable prisons. I would still absolutely hate having to serve time in one.
I do think a more interesting question - and one that certainly relates to the US - is to what degree people are 'personally responsible' for how their lives turn out. Myself, I'm inclined to think that for most people who go to jail (seeing how most people who go to jail aren't white collar criminals), having to have lived a life that pushed them towards crime is punishment enough. That doesn't mean I want to abolish the penal system as a whole - deterrence and removing dangerous elements of society from the public are still important functions of the penal system - but it does mean that I want the retributive element of the penal system to be entirely abolished and replaced by a focus on rehabilitation, and it means examining what causes deterrence.
Obviously, capital punishment has to go - it's retributive by design, rehabilitation is impossible, it doesn't function as more of a deterrent than long prison sentences do, it succeeds in removing dangerous elements of society but through doing so it brutalizes society in a way that from my perspective is overwhelmingly likely to make it more violent overall. (The more the state condones violence, the more the people will condone violence).
Myself, I'm also inclined to think the same about 'life in prison' for all but the 'least rehabilitatable' of criminals. Layman's understanding here, but 'some people have chemical imbalances in their brain that makes them incapable of ever being normal, not-dangerous members of society' is probably true. I'm not really sure 'prison' is where to keep those, though - because these people are ones whose freedoms must genuinely be restricted so they cannot harm others, subjecting others to the same conditions that they must be subject to seems cruel and inhumane.
Frankly there's one area where I see the notion that punishment functions as a deterrence actually work out - driving under the influence. I know many people who don't actually think there's anything wrong with drinking 2 beers or smoking a couple joints and then driving, but who don't do it anyway because they are afraid of the punishment. I know of at least a couple people who did it until they got caught and then stopped after they lost their driver's license for two years. But that's it. Probably holds true for some degree of taxation, too - that many would choose to pay less taxes if it wasn't punished.
However, the reason why I don't steal isn't that I'm afraid to get caught and punished by the police - it's that I have the things I need and I consider stealing immoral. I could get away with stealing tons of things, but I don't do it anyway. The reason why I don't rape, murder or beat up strangers is much the same - it's not that I'm afraid to get caught, it's that the actions don't appeal to me. I've used drugs, despite being afraid to get caught by the police. (Desire to use drugs / being under the influence of drugs is a stronger motivation than 'thinking rationally about what the legal consequences of it'.)
But the more people think 'the quality of a person's life is a reflection of the inner goodness of their heart' rather than 'the quality of a person's life is a reflection of how that person's earlier life has been - a cycle which can be repeated until the beginning of said person's life and thus said person's current life can at least partially be determined by factors entirely outside said person's control', the more acceptance there is for 'shitty people deserve shitty prisons', no matter how detrimental it is to society at large.
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Isn't that in violation of freedom of thought?
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Inmates in the US have a large variety of choices. Namely what will kill them. Will it be the heat ? Or maybe the warden? Maybe they'll die fixing your roads ? Or the good old lethal "fire in my veins yet i cant move" injection.
You can't work towards rehabilitation if you're too busy surviving.
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On June 24 2021 22:06 Erasme wrote:
Inmates in the US have a large variety of choices. Namely what will kill them. Will it be the heat ? Or maybe the warden? Maybe they'll die fixing your roads ? Or the good old lethal "fire in my veins yet i cant move" injection.
You can't work towards rehabilitation if you're too busy surviving.
This is a common theme in the US, even for the people not in prison. People are too busy and exhausted from trying to scrape out a meager living that they don’t have any energy left to do anything beyond surviving, even if doing so would be in their best interest.
We’re the land of Freedom if your idea of freedom is how you get to spend your life being abused by a grotesque system that wants to wring you for every raw cent of value at the expense of your mental and physical health.
Prison is definitely an extreme example of America’s version of “Freedom,” though.
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worth noting too that DeSantis is often highlighted as the poster child of conservative politics and a hopeful for president. even in this thread. I would appreciate some feedback from those supporters on how this isn’t blatantly unconstitutional and how that fits into ones idea of a hopeful presidential candidate.
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There are good odds that law will get struck down as a vague prior restraint on speech unconstitutional under the 1st amendment, but relying on the courts is an iffy proposition these days.
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Pretty sure that unless your private political/religious/ethical views are explicitly preventing you from being an effective educator, they're none of anyone else's business.
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On June 24 2021 22:42 brian wrote:worth noting too that DeSantis is often highlighted as the poster child of conservative politics and a hopeful for president. even in this thread. I would appreciate some feedback from those supporters on how this isn’t blatantly unconstitutional and how that fits into ones idea of a hopeful presidential candidate.
The two are not necessarily connected, unfortunately. A politician favoring unconstitutional ideas does not preclude that politician from gaining significant support in an election. When voters pick a candidate for their primary or for the general election, there are a variety of different things considered, depending on the voter: some are single-issue voters (abortion, guns, etc.); some just hate the other "side"; some don't care if the politician is a lazy, unethical, rapist as long as he acts tough; etc. The focus doesn't have to be on something substantive, and people are really good at hand-waving and employing post hoc rationalizations anyway, once they pick a candidate.
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Mc Afee has killed himself in a spanish prison. Seems to have been a complete sociopath and a narcissist, but I would lie if I said that reading about his life didn’t make me smile a bit.
On a side note, another libertarian that turns out to be a egomaniac psycho. There is a pattern here.
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EPT
