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On November 13 2025 02:52 Doublemint wrote:well, like god, this thread also moves in mysterious ways sometimes...  but to your point, it's important what the House of Representatives now does right? Schumer basically changed his position from the hot seat to "eject me now please I am ridiculously out of touch". I can see why Democrats are doing it - the suffering is real, it is not just Republicans that are under fire the longer this goes. it is just idiotic politically for no gain in times of shamelessness. and Republicans are even for politician's standards invertebrate scumbags completely devoid of shame. that is also me half pretending Dems are doing it not to get rid of the filibuster... who knows. the important thing is the court is now in the House so fingers crossed they are holding the line and make Republicans blink. also impeach Trump a third time, do a "day of love" at the Capitol - for good this time and drag him out for balance's sake. what else do people need to see what's what...? https://x.com/quadcarl_carl/status/1988607235971527035 - I mean... Michael Wolff to the one and only Epstein. here's more freshly released mails. https://www.pbs.org/newshour/politics/read-jeffrey-epsteins-newly-released-emails-about-trump
Other then the obvious (Trump is a pedophile and Epstein was a sex trafficker supplying victims to him) I have to say that, despite my belief that I couldn't despise him more after he released the "Donald is my best friend" tapes 3 days before the election when it was already too late for it to have any impact Michael Wolff surpassed my expectations.
Literally giving advice to this known fucking monster, just a despicable piece of shit masquerading as a journalist, there should be a special place in hell just for this fucking guy.
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Northern Ireland26028 Posts
On November 13 2025 02:25 GreenHorizons wrote:I thought when I saw 30+ new posts people were finally discussing the end of the Democratic party and what to do or maybe even just some news on the Epstein files, but no. The two biggest US political situations aren't remotely as engaging as *checks notes* discussions on European credit cards and whatever irrelevant nonsense JJR could bait you all with. Surely someone disagrees with this? Show nested quote +On November 11 2025 22:21 Jankisa wrote:
The only real way to have leverage over the Democratic party is for a significant enough number of Congress and Senate members to leave and form a party.
They can still vote and caucus with the Democrats on a majority of issues, but there is absolutely no point in the whole party and with it the whole left in the USA to be a hostage of a gerontocratic, rudderless and feckless party with no real leaders or ideas.
On the matter of who the politicians caved to and who the pressure came from, i think it's exactly the donor class who started to feel some consequences by having their private jet flights delayed so they gave the spineless 8 a call to cave.
The "vote blue no matter who" bullshit went out of the window when the Democratic Senate minority leader refused to endorse the winner of Democratic primary in New York, to me, Chuck Schumer is a cooky idiot and the fact that he is currently the most powerful democrat tells you all you need about how lost of a cause this party is under his "leadership". Or is this what everyone that wanted/wants me to vote Democrat believes now?
Maybe people are just sick of your pious lecturing, ever considered that?
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On November 13 2025 03:17 KwarK wrote:Show nested quote +On November 13 2025 02:55 GreenHorizons wrote:On November 13 2025 02:39 KwarK wrote:
GH, Mamdani literally just showed proof of what we've all repeatedly explained to you. How to play a two party system where the least shit of the two parties is still not representing you. You stage a coup from within. You join it, you primary the incumbent, you replace them.
Trump is another example. After a mixed race man dared become President the racists were unhappy with the existing Republican Party which they felt was not doing enough to put minorities in their place. Trump's campaigns against Republicans who refused to submit have always been vicious, but only when no Democrat was running.
The game theory here is extremely simple. You dare not split the lesser evil vote when you're in a contest with the greater evil because that lets the greater evil win. But that vote is the last one in a long series, "blue no matter who" isn't where the battle is fought.
It's not difficult to oppose the existing Democratic Party without becoming an ally to fascists. It's actually incredibly easy. You fundraise for the Mamdanis of the world, you donate to them, you talk to people about them, and when the primary comes you vote for them (or against the Democratic Party establishment candidate if that makes you feel better).
And yet your solution always seems to be "why not let the fascists win on principle". You always insist that people who vote for the lesser evil are somehow endorsing it and demand to know why. And then they explain to you that voting against a greater evil is not the same as endorsing a lesser evil. And then a month later we're doing the same thing again. Is this what everyone besides Jankissa believes now? Micro? This seems in conflict with your previous assessment on Democrats capitulating (emphasis mine): On November 08 2025 09:49 micronesia wrote:+ Show Spoiler +Republicans have just strongly rejected the softened Democratic offer for a one-year extension to the health care tax credits in exchange for what republicans are asking for. Not, "that doesn't quite work," but rather an implied, "Wait, you think we're going to give you anything other than a promise that we can renege on later? Nope." Democrats really have no choice, it seems. Either dig in, or never have power again. The GOP is making that abundantly clear. No one disagreed with Micro at the time, curious. We’ve all always believed in voting against neoliberal establishment Dems and we’ve all made this extremely clear a hundred times. But we also believe in voting against fascists and in the general election we had to choose which to vote against because we couldn’t vote against both. You’re pretending not to understand a very longstanding and easy to understand position for the purpose of shaming people for a thing they didn’t do.
Except/Accept that in reality, you could have voted against both and chose not to. The worst case (Trump winning) being what happened anyway.
On November 13 2025 03:46 WombaT wrote:Show nested quote +On November 13 2025 02:25 GreenHorizons wrote:I thought when I saw 30+ new posts people were finally discussing the end of the Democratic party and what to do or maybe even just some news on the Epstein files, but no. The two biggest US political situations aren't remotely as engaging as *checks notes* discussions on European credit cards and whatever irrelevant nonsense JJR could bait you all with. Surely someone disagrees with this? On November 11 2025 22:21 Jankisa wrote:
The only real way to have leverage over the Democratic party is for a significant enough number of Congress and Senate members to leave and form a party.
They can still vote and caucus with the Democrats on a majority of issues, but there is absolutely no point in the whole party and with it the whole left in the USA to be a hostage of a gerontocratic, rudderless and feckless party with no real leaders or ideas.
On the matter of who the politicians caved to and who the pressure came from, i think it's exactly the donor class who started to feel some consequences by having their private jet flights delayed so they gave the spineless 8 a call to cave.
The "vote blue no matter who" bullshit went out of the window when the Democratic Senate minority leader refused to endorse the winner of Democratic primary in New York, to me, Chuck Schumer is a cooky idiot and the fact that he is currently the most powerful democrat tells you all you need about how lost of a cause this party is under his "leadership". Or is this what everyone that wanted/wants me to vote Democrat believes now? Maybe people are just sick of your pious lecturing, ever considered that?
I was actually hoping you all were discussing it among yourselves. I'd actually prefer if you all weren't obsessed with making this stuff about me personally.
Hence me asking about the conflicting opinions among other posters, rather than me talking about how I think socialism should be guiding people's approach to what micronesia described as "Democrats never having power again" (which no one disagreed with).
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United States43218 Posts
On November 13 2025 03:52 GreenHorizons wrote:Show nested quote +On November 13 2025 03:17 KwarK wrote:On November 13 2025 02:55 GreenHorizons wrote:On November 13 2025 02:39 KwarK wrote:
GH, Mamdani literally just showed proof of what we've all repeatedly explained to you. How to play a two party system where the least shit of the two parties is still not representing you. You stage a coup from within. You join it, you primary the incumbent, you replace them.
Trump is another example. After a mixed race man dared become President the racists were unhappy with the existing Republican Party which they felt was not doing enough to put minorities in their place. Trump's campaigns against Republicans who refused to submit have always been vicious, but only when no Democrat was running.
The game theory here is extremely simple. You dare not split the lesser evil vote when you're in a contest with the greater evil because that lets the greater evil win. But that vote is the last one in a long series, "blue no matter who" isn't where the battle is fought.
It's not difficult to oppose the existing Democratic Party without becoming an ally to fascists. It's actually incredibly easy. You fundraise for the Mamdanis of the world, you donate to them, you talk to people about them, and when the primary comes you vote for them (or against the Democratic Party establishment candidate if that makes you feel better).
And yet your solution always seems to be "why not let the fascists win on principle". You always insist that people who vote for the lesser evil are somehow endorsing it and demand to know why. And then they explain to you that voting against a greater evil is not the same as endorsing a lesser evil. And then a month later we're doing the same thing again. Is this what everyone besides Jankissa believes now? Micro? This seems in conflict with your previous assessment on Democrats capitulating (emphasis mine): On November 08 2025 09:49 micronesia wrote:+ Show Spoiler +Republicans have just strongly rejected the softened Democratic offer for a one-year extension to the health care tax credits in exchange for what republicans are asking for. Not, "that doesn't quite work," but rather an implied, "Wait, you think we're going to give you anything other than a promise that we can renege on later? Nope." Democrats really have no choice, it seems. Either dig in, or never have power again. The GOP is making that abundantly clear. No one disagreed with Micro at the time, curious. We’ve all always believed in voting against neoliberal establishment Dems and we’ve all made this extremely clear a hundred times. But we also believe in voting against fascists and in the general election we had to choose which to vote against because we couldn’t vote against both. You’re pretending not to understand a very longstanding and easy to understand position for the purpose of shaming people for a thing they didn’t do. Except/Accept that in reality, you could have voted against both and chose not to.
How is it that you still don’t understand simple plurality.
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On November 13 2025 03:06 Jankisa wrote:
Just so I'm not misconstrued, I don't think what I wrote is anything new, political pluralism is good, duopoly is bad, Schumer is a horrible leader, all of those things were true before the election, after the first folding instead of fighting and now.
I'm not an expert on American political system but isn't Bernie basically one of these guys who is but also isn't a Democrat? I kind of wish that after 2016 he took as many people he could have and actually made something similar to what I wrote, I think we'd be in a much better place right now.
FPTP makes it so if either party splinters in two, the one that stays as a unit is basically guaranteed supermajority in the short term.
Eventually the unitary party would lose steam, cause being in power has a negative effect on popularity, but it would take some election cycles for contests to re-center and become competitive again. That is, if the unitary party with zero concern for ethics and values doesn't complete its fascist power grab and get control over the judiciary in the meantime.
The US is probably the worst place to do this in, apart from FPTP the team sports-like loyalty to parties which people make into their identities is more pronounced than elsewhere. And more importantly the parties are very decentralized compared to Europe, anyone can run as anything so there's little you can only change from the outside and there's a huge boon in coverage from doing well in a primary while being a thorn. The GOP did not want Trump and he would have gotten 5% from outside of it for these reasons.
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EPT
