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United States10236 Posts
On April 21 2021 12:51 plasmidghost wrote:Show nested quote +On April 21 2021 12:46 Husyelt wrote:On April 21 2021 12:34 plasmidghost wrote:
Just watched the bodycam footage and christ that was painful to see. I don't know if linking it here is allowed because it is extremely graphic. I will never understand why police are so quick to shoot their firearms when they have a taser perfectly capable of incapacitating someone with a melee weapon like a knife. Like, unfortunately I don't know what happened before the cop got there but I fully believe that girl should still be alive. Not going to watch if it's that graphic. But I saw someone on reddit mentioning that police officers have more leeway than soldiers in actual war zones, with the "rules of engagement." I wonder if that might be the culprit for the very high police / kill rate. The actual video released by CPD is around 1 minute long and it involves + Show Spoiler +the girl being shot four times in the back by the cop A similar incident happened in 2018, and the Supreme Court weighed in on this. Because of their ruling, it appears that there won't be legal repercussions for the cop. Show nested quote +Kisela, a Tucson police officer, shot Hughes less than a minute after arriving, with other officers, at the scene where a woman had been reported to 911 as hacking a tree with a knife and acting erratically. When Kisela fired, Hughes was holding a large kitchen knife, had taken steps toward nearby woman (her roommate), and had refused to drop the knife after at least two commands to do so. Hughes matched the description given by the 911 caller. Her injuries were not life-threatening. All of the officers later said that they subjectively believed Hughes was a threat to her roommate. Hughes had a history of mental illness. Her roommate said that she did not feel endangered. Hughes sued Kisela, alleging excessive force, 42 U.S.C. 1983. The Supreme Court ruled in favor of the officer, reversing the Ninth Circuit. Even assuming a Fourth Amendment violation occurred, which “is not at all evident,” Kisela was entitled to qualified immunity. Although the officers were in no apparent danger, Kisela believed Hughes was a threat to her roommate. Kisela had mere seconds to assess the potential danger and was separated from the women by a chain-link fence. This is "far from an obvious case" in which any competent officer would have known that shooting Hughes would violate the Fourth Amendment; the most analogous Ninth Circuit precedent favors Kisela. A reasonable officer is not required to foresee judicial decisions that do not yet exist in instances where the requirements of the Fourth Amendment are far from obvious. https://supreme.justia.com/cases/federal/us/584/17-467/#tab-opinion-3881476I think that there has to be some sort of change. The rules of deadly force and qualified immunity let cops get away with things like this where they murder someone when there are nonlethal ways to defuse a situation, like in this case. The taser, when fired, will jolt someone for five seconds, which is more than enough time to run over to the girl who was just a couple of yards away and disarm her.
Have to say, I disagree with this assessment. You realize that tasers are not a surefire way to incapacitate someone right? Tasers are not a guarantee, and in this situation, the police sees a person brandishing a knife against someone literally less than a couple feet away. You want to incapacitate them to save the person being ran at with a knife.
If the cop uses the taser, and the taser isn't effective enough, and the girl in the pink suffers extreme bodily harm/permanent injury/ or even dies, guess the cop is still in the wrong. It's a lose-lose here. Regardless, you cannot qualify this as a cop murdering someone.
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On April 21 2021 14:06 FlaShFTW wrote:Show nested quote +On April 21 2021 12:51 plasmidghost wrote:On April 21 2021 12:46 Husyelt wrote:On April 21 2021 12:34 plasmidghost wrote:
Just watched the bodycam footage and christ that was painful to see. I don't know if linking it here is allowed because it is extremely graphic. I will never understand why police are so quick to shoot their firearms when they have a taser perfectly capable of incapacitating someone with a melee weapon like a knife. Like, unfortunately I don't know what happened before the cop got there but I fully believe that girl should still be alive. Not going to watch if it's that graphic. But I saw someone on reddit mentioning that police officers have more leeway than soldiers in actual war zones, with the "rules of engagement." I wonder if that might be the culprit for the very high police / kill rate. The actual video released by CPD is around 1 minute long and it involves + Show Spoiler +the girl being shot four times in the back by the cop A similar incident happened in 2018, and the Supreme Court weighed in on this. Because of their ruling, it appears that there won't be legal repercussions for the cop. Kisela, a Tucson police officer, shot Hughes less than a minute after arriving, with other officers, at the scene where a woman had been reported to 911 as hacking a tree with a knife and acting erratically. When Kisela fired, Hughes was holding a large kitchen knife, had taken steps toward nearby woman (her roommate), and had refused to drop the knife after at least two commands to do so. Hughes matched the description given by the 911 caller. Her injuries were not life-threatening. All of the officers later said that they subjectively believed Hughes was a threat to her roommate. Hughes had a history of mental illness. Her roommate said that she did not feel endangered. Hughes sued Kisela, alleging excessive force, 42 U.S.C. 1983. The Supreme Court ruled in favor of the officer, reversing the Ninth Circuit. Even assuming a Fourth Amendment violation occurred, which “is not at all evident,” Kisela was entitled to qualified immunity. Although the officers were in no apparent danger, Kisela believed Hughes was a threat to her roommate. Kisela had mere seconds to assess the potential danger and was separated from the women by a chain-link fence. This is "far from an obvious case" in which any competent officer would have known that shooting Hughes would violate the Fourth Amendment; the most analogous Ninth Circuit precedent favors Kisela. A reasonable officer is not required to foresee judicial decisions that do not yet exist in instances where the requirements of the Fourth Amendment are far from obvious. https://supreme.justia.com/cases/federal/us/584/17-467/#tab-opinion-3881476I think that there has to be some sort of change. The rules of deadly force and qualified immunity let cops get away with things like this where they murder someone when there are nonlethal ways to defuse a situation, like in this case. The taser, when fired, will jolt someone for five seconds, which is more than enough time to run over to the girl who was just a couple of yards away and disarm her. Have to say, I disagree with this assessment. You realize that tasers are not a surefire way to incapacitate someone right? Tasers are not a guarantee, and in this situation, the police sees a person brandishing a knife against someone literally less than a couple feet away. You want to incapacitate them to save the person being ran at with a knife. If the cop uses the taser, and the taser isn't effective enough, and the girl in the pink suffers extreme bodily harm/permanent injury/ or even dies, guess the cop is still in the wrong. It's a lose-lose here. Regardless, you cannot qualify this as a cop murdering someone.
That's something I didn't know. If the taser is only effective around 60% of the time, why is it even used then? It seems like there should be something better.
The video appears to have been removed on both Facebook and YouTube so I can't watch it again
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United States43230 Posts
On April 21 2021 14:06 FlaShFTW wrote:Show nested quote +On April 21 2021 12:51 plasmidghost wrote:On April 21 2021 12:46 Husyelt wrote:On April 21 2021 12:34 plasmidghost wrote:
Just watched the bodycam footage and christ that was painful to see. I don't know if linking it here is allowed because it is extremely graphic. I will never understand why police are so quick to shoot their firearms when they have a taser perfectly capable of incapacitating someone with a melee weapon like a knife. Like, unfortunately I don't know what happened before the cop got there but I fully believe that girl should still be alive. Not going to watch if it's that graphic. But I saw someone on reddit mentioning that police officers have more leeway than soldiers in actual war zones, with the "rules of engagement." I wonder if that might be the culprit for the very high police / kill rate. The actual video released by CPD is around 1 minute long and it involves + Show Spoiler +the girl being shot four times in the back by the cop A similar incident happened in 2018, and the Supreme Court weighed in on this. Because of their ruling, it appears that there won't be legal repercussions for the cop. Kisela, a Tucson police officer, shot Hughes less than a minute after arriving, with other officers, at the scene where a woman had been reported to 911 as hacking a tree with a knife and acting erratically. When Kisela fired, Hughes was holding a large kitchen knife, had taken steps toward nearby woman (her roommate), and had refused to drop the knife after at least two commands to do so. Hughes matched the description given by the 911 caller. Her injuries were not life-threatening. All of the officers later said that they subjectively believed Hughes was a threat to her roommate. Hughes had a history of mental illness. Her roommate said that she did not feel endangered. Hughes sued Kisela, alleging excessive force, 42 U.S.C. 1983. The Supreme Court ruled in favor of the officer, reversing the Ninth Circuit. Even assuming a Fourth Amendment violation occurred, which “is not at all evident,” Kisela was entitled to qualified immunity. Although the officers were in no apparent danger, Kisela believed Hughes was a threat to her roommate. Kisela had mere seconds to assess the potential danger and was separated from the women by a chain-link fence. This is "far from an obvious case" in which any competent officer would have known that shooting Hughes would violate the Fourth Amendment; the most analogous Ninth Circuit precedent favors Kisela. A reasonable officer is not required to foresee judicial decisions that do not yet exist in instances where the requirements of the Fourth Amendment are far from obvious. https://supreme.justia.com/cases/federal/us/584/17-467/#tab-opinion-3881476I think that there has to be some sort of change. The rules of deadly force and qualified immunity let cops get away with things like this where they murder someone when there are nonlethal ways to defuse a situation, like in this case. The taser, when fired, will jolt someone for five seconds, which is more than enough time to run over to the girl who was just a couple of yards away and disarm her. Have to say, I disagree with this assessment. You realize that tasers are not a surefire way to incapacitate someone right? Tasers are not a guarantee, and in this situation, the police sees a person brandishing a knife against someone literally less than a couple feet away. You want to incapacitate them to save the person being ran at with a knife. If the cop uses the taser, and the taser isn't effective enough, and the girl in the pink suffers extreme bodily harm/permanent injury/ or even dies, guess the cop is still in the wrong. It's a lose-lose here. Regardless, you cannot qualify this as a cop murdering someone.
The cop is not in the wrong if one person harms another, the person doing the harming is in the wrong. They’re not out there to dispense justice, shooting people, even if they’re bad guys, is a failure. The justice system dispenses justice, the police are just there to get suspects into court rooms. You can’t try a dead body, every shot suspect is a citizen denied a chance to defend themselves in court. Extrajudicial execution by cops should be a last resort to avoid an even greater evil, not the first tool used when immediate compliance is not proffered.
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Shit. I don't know what happened to cause the confrontation like that. I need to wait on testimony of the people there. The footage really doesn't look good but I couldn't tell from looking at it in slow motion that she had a knife. I stopped it at multiple frames and it's just not high quality enough for my poor vision self to make out the knife in her hand. I need to wait for everything to come out regarding details and not rush into conclusions. I know the AG in Ohio has their investigation unit that's supposed to be independent to look into cop shootings and maybe they can say what happened, but once thing that bugs me is the eyewitnesses at the scene saying different from the bodycam footage. I hope it can be determined what happened
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United States10236 Posts
On April 21 2021 14:38 KwarK wrote:Show nested quote +On April 21 2021 14:06 FlaShFTW wrote:On April 21 2021 12:51 plasmidghost wrote:On April 21 2021 12:46 Husyelt wrote:On April 21 2021 12:34 plasmidghost wrote:
Just watched the bodycam footage and christ that was painful to see. I don't know if linking it here is allowed because it is extremely graphic. I will never understand why police are so quick to shoot their firearms when they have a taser perfectly capable of incapacitating someone with a melee weapon like a knife. Like, unfortunately I don't know what happened before the cop got there but I fully believe that girl should still be alive. Not going to watch if it's that graphic. But I saw someone on reddit mentioning that police officers have more leeway than soldiers in actual war zones, with the "rules of engagement." I wonder if that might be the culprit for the very high police / kill rate. The actual video released by CPD is around 1 minute long and it involves + Show Spoiler +the girl being shot four times in the back by the cop A similar incident happened in 2018, and the Supreme Court weighed in on this. Because of their ruling, it appears that there won't be legal repercussions for the cop. Kisela, a Tucson police officer, shot Hughes less than a minute after arriving, with other officers, at the scene where a woman had been reported to 911 as hacking a tree with a knife and acting erratically. When Kisela fired, Hughes was holding a large kitchen knife, had taken steps toward nearby woman (her roommate), and had refused to drop the knife after at least two commands to do so. Hughes matched the description given by the 911 caller. Her injuries were not life-threatening. All of the officers later said that they subjectively believed Hughes was a threat to her roommate. Hughes had a history of mental illness. Her roommate said that she did not feel endangered. Hughes sued Kisela, alleging excessive force, 42 U.S.C. 1983. The Supreme Court ruled in favor of the officer, reversing the Ninth Circuit. Even assuming a Fourth Amendment violation occurred, which “is not at all evident,” Kisela was entitled to qualified immunity. Although the officers were in no apparent danger, Kisela believed Hughes was a threat to her roommate. Kisela had mere seconds to assess the potential danger and was separated from the women by a chain-link fence. This is "far from an obvious case" in which any competent officer would have known that shooting Hughes would violate the Fourth Amendment; the most analogous Ninth Circuit precedent favors Kisela. A reasonable officer is not required to foresee judicial decisions that do not yet exist in instances where the requirements of the Fourth Amendment are far from obvious. https://supreme.justia.com/cases/federal/us/584/17-467/#tab-opinion-3881476I think that there has to be some sort of change. The rules of deadly force and qualified immunity let cops get away with things like this where they murder someone when there are nonlethal ways to defuse a situation, like in this case. The taser, when fired, will jolt someone for five seconds, which is more than enough time to run over to the girl who was just a couple of yards away and disarm her. Have to say, I disagree with this assessment. You realize that tasers are not a surefire way to incapacitate someone right? Tasers are not a guarantee, and in this situation, the police sees a person brandishing a knife against someone literally less than a couple feet away. You want to incapacitate them to save the person being ran at with a knife. If the cop uses the taser, and the taser isn't effective enough, and the girl in the pink suffers extreme bodily harm/permanent injury/ or even dies, guess the cop is still in the wrong. It's a lose-lose here. Regardless, you cannot qualify this as a cop murdering someone. The cop is not in the wrong if one person harms another, the person doing the harming is in the wrong. They’re not out there to dispense justice, shooting people, even if they’re bad guys, is a failure. The justice system dispenses justice, the police are just there to get suspects into court rooms. You can’t try a dead body, every shot suspect is a citizen denied a chance to defend themselves in court. Extrajudicial execution by cops should be a last resort to avoid an even greater evil, not the first tool used when immediate compliance is not proffered.
So your goal is to just let the girl get injured or potential death here? The police is not the one to administer justice, but they certainly are there to PROTECT the people, even if you want to talk about how bad policing has been. In a vacuum, the police did not do anything wrong in this situation, and at worst will be removed from field duty for several months.
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United States43230 Posts
On April 21 2021 14:49 FlaShFTW wrote:Show nested quote +On April 21 2021 14:38 KwarK wrote:On April 21 2021 14:06 FlaShFTW wrote:On April 21 2021 12:51 plasmidghost wrote:On April 21 2021 12:46 Husyelt wrote:On April 21 2021 12:34 plasmidghost wrote:
Just watched the bodycam footage and christ that was painful to see. I don't know if linking it here is allowed because it is extremely graphic. I will never understand why police are so quick to shoot their firearms when they have a taser perfectly capable of incapacitating someone with a melee weapon like a knife. Like, unfortunately I don't know what happened before the cop got there but I fully believe that girl should still be alive. Not going to watch if it's that graphic. But I saw someone on reddit mentioning that police officers have more leeway than soldiers in actual war zones, with the "rules of engagement." I wonder if that might be the culprit for the very high police / kill rate. The actual video released by CPD is around 1 minute long and it involves + Show Spoiler +the girl being shot four times in the back by the cop A similar incident happened in 2018, and the Supreme Court weighed in on this. Because of their ruling, it appears that there won't be legal repercussions for the cop. Kisela, a Tucson police officer, shot Hughes less than a minute after arriving, with other officers, at the scene where a woman had been reported to 911 as hacking a tree with a knife and acting erratically. When Kisela fired, Hughes was holding a large kitchen knife, had taken steps toward nearby woman (her roommate), and had refused to drop the knife after at least two commands to do so. Hughes matched the description given by the 911 caller. Her injuries were not life-threatening. All of the officers later said that they subjectively believed Hughes was a threat to her roommate. Hughes had a history of mental illness. Her roommate said that she did not feel endangered. Hughes sued Kisela, alleging excessive force, 42 U.S.C. 1983. The Supreme Court ruled in favor of the officer, reversing the Ninth Circuit. Even assuming a Fourth Amendment violation occurred, which “is not at all evident,” Kisela was entitled to qualified immunity. Although the officers were in no apparent danger, Kisela believed Hughes was a threat to her roommate. Kisela had mere seconds to assess the potential danger and was separated from the women by a chain-link fence. This is "far from an obvious case" in which any competent officer would have known that shooting Hughes would violate the Fourth Amendment; the most analogous Ninth Circuit precedent favors Kisela. A reasonable officer is not required to foresee judicial decisions that do not yet exist in instances where the requirements of the Fourth Amendment are far from obvious. https://supreme.justia.com/cases/federal/us/584/17-467/#tab-opinion-3881476I think that there has to be some sort of change. The rules of deadly force and qualified immunity let cops get away with things like this where they murder someone when there are nonlethal ways to defuse a situation, like in this case. The taser, when fired, will jolt someone for five seconds, which is more than enough time to run over to the girl who was just a couple of yards away and disarm her. Have to say, I disagree with this assessment. You realize that tasers are not a surefire way to incapacitate someone right? Tasers are not a guarantee, and in this situation, the police sees a person brandishing a knife against someone literally less than a couple feet away. You want to incapacitate them to save the person being ran at with a knife. If the cop uses the taser, and the taser isn't effective enough, and the girl in the pink suffers extreme bodily harm/permanent injury/ or even dies, guess the cop is still in the wrong. It's a lose-lose here. Regardless, you cannot qualify this as a cop murdering someone. The cop is not in the wrong if one person harms another, the person doing the harming is in the wrong. They’re not out there to dispense justice, shooting people, even if they’re bad guys, is a failure. The justice system dispenses justice, the police are just there to get suspects into court rooms. You can’t try a dead body, every shot suspect is a citizen denied a chance to defend themselves in court. Extrajudicial execution by cops should be a last resort to avoid an even greater evil, not the first tool used when immediate compliance is not proffered. So your goal is to just let the girl get injured or potential death here? The police is not the one to administer justice, but they certainly are there to PROTECT the people, even if you want to talk about how bad policing has been. In a vacuum, the police did not do anything wrong in this situation, and at worst will be removed from field duty for several months.
Potentially injured, yes. Shooting whoever seems potentially dangerous is an overly cautious way of protecting some of the public which reliably results in other members of the public dying. The girl not holding a knife didn’t deserve death, but nor did the girl holding the knife. Too often in policing the question is whether the right person got shot and not whether there was a requirement for anyone to get shot. Shooting people is seen as good policing.
Imagine two scenarios. In one a member of the public threatens another with a knife. In the other a member of the public threatens another with a knife and is shot by the police. In which scenario do more members of the public get hurt?
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Bla bla bla these things aren't always as clear cut as the Floyd case.
And if you look at things in a vacuum, well shit, that does help for theoretical research but is just so far from real life that it's kinda useless.
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Yeah... this shooting is a lot more grey than Floyd. Even under "new" era rules I'm pretty sure that the officer gets away with a few months of paid vacation. There's presumably a knife, being wielded aggressively in close proximity to someone who is trying to get away from the aggressor. There isn't 5+ minutes of having spectators tell you you're killing someone, there's barely 5 seconds to assess and react.
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On April 21 2021 15:00 KwarK wrote:Show nested quote +On April 21 2021 14:49 FlaShFTW wrote:On April 21 2021 14:38 KwarK wrote:On April 21 2021 14:06 FlaShFTW wrote:On April 21 2021 12:51 plasmidghost wrote:On April 21 2021 12:46 Husyelt wrote:On April 21 2021 12:34 plasmidghost wrote:
Just watched the bodycam footage and christ that was painful to see. I don't know if linking it here is allowed because it is extremely graphic. I will never understand why police are so quick to shoot their firearms when they have a taser perfectly capable of incapacitating someone with a melee weapon like a knife. Like, unfortunately I don't know what happened before the cop got there but I fully believe that girl should still be alive. Not going to watch if it's that graphic. But I saw someone on reddit mentioning that police officers have more leeway than soldiers in actual war zones, with the "rules of engagement." I wonder if that might be the culprit for the very high police / kill rate. The actual video released by CPD is around 1 minute long and it involves + Show Spoiler +the girl being shot four times in the back by the cop A similar incident happened in 2018, and the Supreme Court weighed in on this. Because of their ruling, it appears that there won't be legal repercussions for the cop. Kisela, a Tucson police officer, shot Hughes less than a minute after arriving, with other officers, at the scene where a woman had been reported to 911 as hacking a tree with a knife and acting erratically. When Kisela fired, Hughes was holding a large kitchen knife, had taken steps toward nearby woman (her roommate), and had refused to drop the knife after at least two commands to do so. Hughes matched the description given by the 911 caller. Her injuries were not life-threatening. All of the officers later said that they subjectively believed Hughes was a threat to her roommate. Hughes had a history of mental illness. Her roommate said that she did not feel endangered. Hughes sued Kisela, alleging excessive force, 42 U.S.C. 1983. The Supreme Court ruled in favor of the officer, reversing the Ninth Circuit. Even assuming a Fourth Amendment violation occurred, which “is not at all evident,” Kisela was entitled to qualified immunity. Although the officers were in no apparent danger, Kisela believed Hughes was a threat to her roommate. Kisela had mere seconds to assess the potential danger and was separated from the women by a chain-link fence. This is "far from an obvious case" in which any competent officer would have known that shooting Hughes would violate the Fourth Amendment; the most analogous Ninth Circuit precedent favors Kisela. A reasonable officer is not required to foresee judicial decisions that do not yet exist in instances where the requirements of the Fourth Amendment are far from obvious. https://supreme.justia.com/cases/federal/us/584/17-467/#tab-opinion-3881476I think that there has to be some sort of change. The rules of deadly force and qualified immunity let cops get away with things like this where they murder someone when there are nonlethal ways to defuse a situation, like in this case. The taser, when fired, will jolt someone for five seconds, which is more than enough time to run over to the girl who was just a couple of yards away and disarm her. Have to say, I disagree with this assessment. You realize that tasers are not a surefire way to incapacitate someone right? Tasers are not a guarantee, and in this situation, the police sees a person brandishing a knife against someone literally less than a couple feet away. You want to incapacitate them to save the person being ran at with a knife. If the cop uses the taser, and the taser isn't effective enough, and the girl in the pink suffers extreme bodily harm/permanent injury/ or even dies, guess the cop is still in the wrong. It's a lose-lose here. Regardless, you cannot qualify this as a cop murdering someone. The cop is not in the wrong if one person harms another, the person doing the harming is in the wrong. They’re not out there to dispense justice, shooting people, even if they’re bad guys, is a failure. The justice system dispenses justice, the police are just there to get suspects into court rooms. You can’t try a dead body, every shot suspect is a citizen denied a chance to defend themselves in court. Extrajudicial execution by cops should be a last resort to avoid an even greater evil, not the first tool used when immediate compliance is not proffered. So your goal is to just let the girl get injured or potential death here? The police is not the one to administer justice, but they certainly are there to PROTECT the people, even if you want to talk about how bad policing has been. In a vacuum, the police did not do anything wrong in this situation, and at worst will be removed from field duty for several months. Potentially injured, yes. Shooting whoever seems potentially dangerous is an overly cautious way of protecting some of the public which reliably results in other members of the public dying. The girl not holding a knife didn’t deserve death, but nor did the girl holding the knife. Too often in policing the question is whether the right person got shot and not whether there was a requirement for anyone to get shot. Shooting people is seen as good policing. Imagine two scenarios. In one a member of the public threatens another with a knife. In the other a member of the public threatens another with a knife and is shot by the police. In which scenario do more members of the public get hurt?
I imagine that member of the public about to get stabbed is my family member and it's an easy decision for me to prefer the police to gun down the stabber. I'd bet you're the only person here that would rather have harm come to you or your family than to have a criminal get shot.
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Norway28707 Posts
On April 21 2021 16:00 Lmui wrote:
Yeah... this shooting is a lot more grey than Floyd. Even under "new" era rules I'm pretty sure that the officer gets away with a few months of paid vacation. There's presumably a knife, being wielded aggressively in close proximity to someone who is trying to get away from the aggressor. There isn't 5+ minutes of having spectators tell you you're killing someone, there's barely 5 seconds to assess and react.
Pretty much every case of police murder is more grey than Floyd, which is why I'm skeptical towards calling this a new era. I'm sure there are periods of time and place where Chauvin would get aquitted, or even given a medal for heroism or whatever, but this one is almost uniquely blatant in how well documented the murder was and how long time it took, and I've even seen self-admitted racists who are almost always 'pro police' say that this was completely unacceptable. There's no 'he only had two seconds to think before shooting', there's no 'his life was endangered', there's no 'we don't know what happened because it's witnesses against police testimony and then we trust the police'. This is a guy killing another guy and it takes him 9 minutes to do it while he's being filmed doing it and told that he's killing the guy - over a potential counterfeit $20 bill.. (I'm not arguing with you, just agreeing and adding to it. )
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On April 21 2021 16:53 BlackJack wrote:Show nested quote +On April 21 2021 15:00 KwarK wrote:On April 21 2021 14:49 FlaShFTW wrote:On April 21 2021 14:38 KwarK wrote:On April 21 2021 14:06 FlaShFTW wrote:On April 21 2021 12:51 plasmidghost wrote:On April 21 2021 12:46 Husyelt wrote:On April 21 2021 12:34 plasmidghost wrote:
Just watched the bodycam footage and christ that was painful to see. I don't know if linking it here is allowed because it is extremely graphic. I will never understand why police are so quick to shoot their firearms when they have a taser perfectly capable of incapacitating someone with a melee weapon like a knife. Like, unfortunately I don't know what happened before the cop got there but I fully believe that girl should still be alive. Not going to watch if it's that graphic. But I saw someone on reddit mentioning that police officers have more leeway than soldiers in actual war zones, with the "rules of engagement." I wonder if that might be the culprit for the very high police / kill rate. The actual video released by CPD is around 1 minute long and it involves + Show Spoiler +the girl being shot four times in the back by the cop A similar incident happened in 2018, and the Supreme Court weighed in on this. Because of their ruling, it appears that there won't be legal repercussions for the cop. Kisela, a Tucson police officer, shot Hughes less than a minute after arriving, with other officers, at the scene where a woman had been reported to 911 as hacking a tree with a knife and acting erratically. When Kisela fired, Hughes was holding a large kitchen knife, had taken steps toward nearby woman (her roommate), and had refused to drop the knife after at least two commands to do so. Hughes matched the description given by the 911 caller. Her injuries were not life-threatening. All of the officers later said that they subjectively believed Hughes was a threat to her roommate. Hughes had a history of mental illness. Her roommate said that she did not feel endangered. Hughes sued Kisela, alleging excessive force, 42 U.S.C. 1983. The Supreme Court ruled in favor of the officer, reversing the Ninth Circuit. Even assuming a Fourth Amendment violation occurred, which “is not at all evident,” Kisela was entitled to qualified immunity. Although the officers were in no apparent danger, Kisela believed Hughes was a threat to her roommate. Kisela had mere seconds to assess the potential danger and was separated from the women by a chain-link fence. This is "far from an obvious case" in which any competent officer would have known that shooting Hughes would violate the Fourth Amendment; the most analogous Ninth Circuit precedent favors Kisela. A reasonable officer is not required to foresee judicial decisions that do not yet exist in instances where the requirements of the Fourth Amendment are far from obvious. https://supreme.justia.com/cases/federal/us/584/17-467/#tab-opinion-3881476I think that there has to be some sort of change. The rules of deadly force and qualified immunity let cops get away with things like this where they murder someone when there are nonlethal ways to defuse a situation, like in this case. The taser, when fired, will jolt someone for five seconds, which is more than enough time to run over to the girl who was just a couple of yards away and disarm her. Have to say, I disagree with this assessment. You realize that tasers are not a surefire way to incapacitate someone right? Tasers are not a guarantee, and in this situation, the police sees a person brandishing a knife against someone literally less than a couple feet away. You want to incapacitate them to save the person being ran at with a knife. If the cop uses the taser, and the taser isn't effective enough, and the girl in the pink suffers extreme bodily harm/permanent injury/ or even dies, guess the cop is still in the wrong. It's a lose-lose here. Regardless, you cannot qualify this as a cop murdering someone. The cop is not in the wrong if one person harms another, the person doing the harming is in the wrong. They’re not out there to dispense justice, shooting people, even if they’re bad guys, is a failure. The justice system dispenses justice, the police are just there to get suspects into court rooms. You can’t try a dead body, every shot suspect is a citizen denied a chance to defend themselves in court. Extrajudicial execution by cops should be a last resort to avoid an even greater evil, not the first tool used when immediate compliance is not proffered. So your goal is to just let the girl get injured or potential death here? The police is not the one to administer justice, but they certainly are there to PROTECT the people, even if you want to talk about how bad policing has been. In a vacuum, the police did not do anything wrong in this situation, and at worst will be removed from field duty for several months. Potentially injured, yes. Shooting whoever seems potentially dangerous is an overly cautious way of protecting some of the public which reliably results in other members of the public dying. The girl not holding a knife didn’t deserve death, but nor did the girl holding the knife. Too often in policing the question is whether the right person got shot and not whether there was a requirement for anyone to get shot. Shooting people is seen as good policing. Imagine two scenarios. In one a member of the public threatens another with a knife. In the other a member of the public threatens another with a knife and is shot by the police. In which scenario do more members of the public get hurt? I imagine that member of the public about to get stabbed is my family member and it's an easy decision for me to prefer the police to gun down the stabber. I'd bet you're the only person here that would rather have harm come to you or your family than to have a criminal get shot.
This betrays so much about the american attitude to criminals and policing.
They were dangerous, we had to kill them! No choice, it seems.
Go find the video of UK cops disarming a machete wielding criminal. You don't have to shoot someone to stop them. When someone is dangerous, killing them is not the only option.
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For as long as American society is ok with police becoming judge, jury and executioner so long as the victim did something to deserve it, you will have extrajudicial killings. Some will be more egregious than others but the result is the same.
The cop in this instance arrived at the scene, assessed the situation and perceived that there was a threat of bodily harm and proceeded to eliminate that threat. What de-escalation tactics did they attempt before this? Did they even verbally command the person wielding the knife to drop it? From what has been described here, that didn't even happen. So, perhaps not as black as the George Floyd killing, but I wouldn't call it grey, it's more like a slightly lighter shade of black.
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Last I checked even serial killers and mass killers don't "deserve" death according to the judicial systems of most developed countries. So literally nobody "deserves" to die, period. Which means literally 0% of the people the police shoot deserved to be shot. So that argument is worthless if it automatically applies in every single instance.
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On April 21 2021 17:09 Jockmcplop wrote:Show nested quote +On April 21 2021 16:53 BlackJack wrote:On April 21 2021 15:00 KwarK wrote:On April 21 2021 14:49 FlaShFTW wrote:On April 21 2021 14:38 KwarK wrote:On April 21 2021 14:06 FlaShFTW wrote:On April 21 2021 12:51 plasmidghost wrote:On April 21 2021 12:46 Husyelt wrote:On April 21 2021 12:34 plasmidghost wrote:
Just watched the bodycam footage and christ that was painful to see. I don't know if linking it here is allowed because it is extremely graphic. I will never understand why police are so quick to shoot their firearms when they have a taser perfectly capable of incapacitating someone with a melee weapon like a knife. Like, unfortunately I don't know what happened before the cop got there but I fully believe that girl should still be alive. Not going to watch if it's that graphic. But I saw someone on reddit mentioning that police officers have more leeway than soldiers in actual war zones, with the "rules of engagement." I wonder if that might be the culprit for the very high police / kill rate. The actual video released by CPD is around 1 minute long and it involves + Show Spoiler +the girl being shot four times in the back by the cop A similar incident happened in 2018, and the Supreme Court weighed in on this. Because of their ruling, it appears that there won't be legal repercussions for the cop. Kisela, a Tucson police officer, shot Hughes less than a minute after arriving, with other officers, at the scene where a woman had been reported to 911 as hacking a tree with a knife and acting erratically. When Kisela fired, Hughes was holding a large kitchen knife, had taken steps toward nearby woman (her roommate), and had refused to drop the knife after at least two commands to do so. Hughes matched the description given by the 911 caller. Her injuries were not life-threatening. All of the officers later said that they subjectively believed Hughes was a threat to her roommate. Hughes had a history of mental illness. Her roommate said that she did not feel endangered. Hughes sued Kisela, alleging excessive force, 42 U.S.C. 1983. The Supreme Court ruled in favor of the officer, reversing the Ninth Circuit. Even assuming a Fourth Amendment violation occurred, which “is not at all evident,” Kisela was entitled to qualified immunity. Although the officers were in no apparent danger, Kisela believed Hughes was a threat to her roommate. Kisela had mere seconds to assess the potential danger and was separated from the women by a chain-link fence. This is "far from an obvious case" in which any competent officer would have known that shooting Hughes would violate the Fourth Amendment; the most analogous Ninth Circuit precedent favors Kisela. A reasonable officer is not required to foresee judicial decisions that do not yet exist in instances where the requirements of the Fourth Amendment are far from obvious. https://supreme.justia.com/cases/federal/us/584/17-467/#tab-opinion-3881476I think that there has to be some sort of change. The rules of deadly force and qualified immunity let cops get away with things like this where they murder someone when there are nonlethal ways to defuse a situation, like in this case. The taser, when fired, will jolt someone for five seconds, which is more than enough time to run over to the girl who was just a couple of yards away and disarm her. Have to say, I disagree with this assessment. You realize that tasers are not a surefire way to incapacitate someone right? Tasers are not a guarantee, and in this situation, the police sees a person brandishing a knife against someone literally less than a couple feet away. You want to incapacitate them to save the person being ran at with a knife. If the cop uses the taser, and the taser isn't effective enough, and the girl in the pink suffers extreme bodily harm/permanent injury/ or even dies, guess the cop is still in the wrong. It's a lose-lose here. Regardless, you cannot qualify this as a cop murdering someone. The cop is not in the wrong if one person harms another, the person doing the harming is in the wrong. They’re not out there to dispense justice, shooting people, even if they’re bad guys, is a failure. The justice system dispenses justice, the police are just there to get suspects into court rooms. You can’t try a dead body, every shot suspect is a citizen denied a chance to defend themselves in court. Extrajudicial execution by cops should be a last resort to avoid an even greater evil, not the first tool used when immediate compliance is not proffered. So your goal is to just let the girl get injured or potential death here? The police is not the one to administer justice, but they certainly are there to PROTECT the people, even if you want to talk about how bad policing has been. In a vacuum, the police did not do anything wrong in this situation, and at worst will be removed from field duty for several months. Potentially injured, yes. Shooting whoever seems potentially dangerous is an overly cautious way of protecting some of the public which reliably results in other members of the public dying. The girl not holding a knife didn’t deserve death, but nor did the girl holding the knife. Too often in policing the question is whether the right person got shot and not whether there was a requirement for anyone to get shot. Shooting people is seen as good policing. Imagine two scenarios. In one a member of the public threatens another with a knife. In the other a member of the public threatens another with a knife and is shot by the police. In which scenario do more members of the public get hurt? I imagine that member of the public about to get stabbed is my family member and it's an easy decision for me to prefer the police to gun down the stabber. I'd bet you're the only person here that would rather have harm come to you or your family than to have a criminal get shot. This betrays so much about the american attitude to criminals and policing. They were dangerous, we had to kill them! No choice, it seems. Go find the video of UK cops disarming a machete wielding criminal. You don't have to shoot someone to stop them. When someone is dangerous, killing them is not the only option.
I want to emphasize this again. In the rest of the world, cops are almost always capable of dealing with these situations without shooting anyone. Yet whenever this comes up in the US, people from the US seem to think that it is completely unavoidable.
Why not look at how those other countries train their cops and how they deal with it? I think this american arrogance which prevents the US from learning from other countries is hurting you in so many areas, this just being one of them.
On April 21 2021 17:49 BlackJack wrote:
Last I checked even serial killers and mass killers don't "deserve" death according to the judicial systems of most developed countries. So literally nobody "deserves" to die, period. Which means literally 0% of the people the police shoot deserved to be shot. So that argument is worthless if it automatically applies in every single instance.
So? Maybe the police should stop shooting so many people?
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On April 21 2021 17:49 BlackJack wrote:
Last I checked even serial killers and mass killers don't "deserve" death according to the judicial systems of most developed countries. So literally nobody "deserves" to die, period. Which means literally 0% of the people the police shoot deserved to be shot. So that argument is worthless if it automatically applies in every single instance.
You are missing the point that what the alleged criminal deserves as punishment should be decided by the justice system and not meted out by police. Pretty weird to bring your apparent distaste for countries not applying the death penalty into the argument.
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On April 21 2021 17:49 BlackJack wrote:
Last I checked even serial killers and mass killers don't "deserve" death according to the judicial systems of most developed countries. So literally nobody "deserves" to die, period. Which means literally 0% of the people the police shoot deserved to be shot. So that argument is worthless if it automatically applies in every single instance.
Its not about who deserves to die. That is for the courts to decide, where the death penalty is an option.
There are instances in which the police have no choice but to kill a suspect, if they are pointing a gun at someone and appear to be about to shoot for example.
Whether or not they deserve to die is literally meaningless when it comes to police shootings. They should be about whether or not any other action was viable without leading to danger for the police or the public.
Unfortunately, for many reasons, in the US it has turned out where people support cops using their guns as plan A in a wide range of situations, because its the easiest and quickest way to get rid of a criminal.
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On April 21 2021 18:03 Jockmcplop wrote:Show nested quote +On April 21 2021 17:49 BlackJack wrote:
Last I checked even serial killers and mass killers don't "deserve" death according to the judicial systems of most developed countries. So literally nobody "deserves" to die, period. Which means literally 0% of the people the police shoot deserved to be shot. So that argument is worthless if it automatically applies in every single instance. Its not about who deserves to die. That is for the courts to decide, where the death penalty is an option. There are instances in which the police have no choice but to kill a suspect, if they are pointing a gun at someone and appear to be about to shoot for example. Whether or not they deserve to die is literally meaningless when it comes to police shootings. They should be about whether or not any other action was viable without leading to danger for the police or the public. Unfortunately, for many reasons, in the US it has turned out where people support cops using their guns as plan A, because its the easiest and quickest way to get rid of a criminal.
Yes, that's exactly what I just said.
My post is a response to Kwark who said "the girl with the knife didn't deserve to die" as well as EndeR who characterizes my argument as I'm okay with police shootings as long as the suspect "did something to deserve to die."
Just to reiterate, even if that 13 year old kid with the gun had started blasting instead of ditching his gun he still doesn't "deserve" to die. The kid didn't deserve the influences on him growing up poor in the inner city any more than he would have deserved to grow up to a wealthy family in the suburbs and have gone to a nice private school.
The argument has always been that police should only shoot to protect themselves or the public from grave bodily harm. There is a deliberate attempt to frame it as being okay with police shooting people that "deserve it" because that makes it look like the shooting is to deliver some kind of ultimate vigilante retribution for being a criminal instead of an attempt to protect themselves or the public.
*just to clarify I haven't even watched the most recent video mentioned in this thread. I am simply making the point that "this person didn't deserve to die" is an absolutely meaningless argument to make when determining if any police shooting is justified. But it looks like you completely agree with me so that's good.
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It's a bit disingenuous to frame non-U.S. policing as perfect.
There are numerous, though still more rare, examples of criminals in multiple EU countries killing several people with knives or firearms.
U.S. policing policy is meant to prevent those many deaths at the expense of the perpetrator. Framing this incident as "one person is threatened with a knife" vs. "One person is threatened with a knife and the other is dead" is simply dishonest. It is very likely that the assault victim could have died. A knife is still an extremely deadly weapon.
There are, of course, also far more guns in the U.S. which means that there are more incidents of criminals possessing deadly weapons. See the case of Miles Jackson in Columbus, OH.
We've all been talking about how U.S. policing is far from perfect, but it's absolutely true that the U.S. it's simply a more dangerous country to live in and law enforcement deal with more stuff here than in other developed countries. This is mostly due to socioeconomic and gun policies, so pretending that EU-style policing is the perfect answer to American policing problems isn't accurate.
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On April 21 2021 18:15 BlackJack wrote:Show nested quote +On April 21 2021 18:03 Jockmcplop wrote:On April 21 2021 17:49 BlackJack wrote:
Last I checked even serial killers and mass killers don't "deserve" death according to the judicial systems of most developed countries. So literally nobody "deserves" to die, period. Which means literally 0% of the people the police shoot deserved to be shot. So that argument is worthless if it automatically applies in every single instance. Its not about who deserves to die. That is for the courts to decide, where the death penalty is an option. There are instances in which the police have no choice but to kill a suspect, if they are pointing a gun at someone and appear to be about to shoot for example. Whether or not they deserve to die is literally meaningless when it comes to police shootings. They should be about whether or not any other action was viable without leading to danger for the police or the public. Unfortunately, for many reasons, in the US it has turned out where people support cops using their guns as plan A, because its the easiest and quickest way to get rid of a criminal. Yes, that's exactly what I just said. My post is a response to Kwark who said "the girl with the knife didn't deserve to die" as well as EndeR who characterizes my argument as I'm okay with police shootings as long as the suspect "did something to deserve to die." Just to reiterate, even if that 13 year old kid with the gun had started blasting instead of ditching his gun he still doesn't "deserve" to die. The kid didn't deserve the influences on him growing up poor in the inner city any more than he would have deserved to grow up to a wealthy family in the suburbs and have gone to a nice private school. The argument has always been that police should only shoot to protect themselves or the public from grave bodily harm. There is a deliberate attempt to frame it as being okay with police shooting people that "deserve it" because that makes it look like the shooting is to deliver some kind of ultimate vigilante retribution for being a criminal instead of an attempt to protect themselves or the public. *just to clarify I haven't even watched the most recent video mentioned in this thread. I am simply making the point that "this person didn't deserve to die" is an absolutely meaningless argument to make when determining if any police shooting is justified. But it looks like you completely agree with me so that's good.
I'm happy to drop the word deserve. You still stated that you are ok with police executing a suspect (or that the cop shouldn't be expected to be superhuman so they're not culpable, which ultimately leads to the same outcome) if the suspect does something stupid.
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On April 21 2021 19:49 Stratos_speAr wrote:
It's a bit disingenuous to frame non-U.S. policing as perfect.
There are numerous, though still more rare, examples of criminals in multiple EU countries killing several people with knives or firearms.
U.S. policing policy is meant to prevent those many deaths at the expense of the perpetrator. Framing this incident as "one person is threatened with a knife" vs. "One person is threatened with a knife and the other is dead" is simply dishonest. It is very likely that the assault victim could have died. A knife is still an extremely deadly weapon.
There are, of course, also far more guns in the U.S. which means that there are more incidents of criminals possessing deadly weapons. See the case of Miles Jackson in Columbus, OH.
We've all been talking about how U.S. policing is far from perfect, but it's absolutely true that the U.S. it's simply a more dangerous country to live in and law enforcement deal with more stuff here than in other developed countries. This is mostly due to socioeconomic and gun policies, so pretending that EU-style policing is the perfect answer to American policing problems isn't accurate.
I've read back through the conversation and I can't find a single example example of anyone saying non-US policing is either perfect or the answer to American policing problems in general.
There was a specific point about de-escalating when someone has a knife. Of course you don't have to shoot someone who is holding a knife, you just de-escalate. The point is the de-escalation phase doesn't exist in American policing. They go for the gun upon the first detection of any danger, and they treat someone with a knife as if they have a gun.
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EPT
