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On January 28 2021 01:59 Stratos_speAr wrote: Zambrah, many people think the economy is doing well because their everyday situation is better than it use to be. It isn't all about the stock market.
Republicans have been polling pretty favorably on the economy for a long time, and many of them think that the only problem is lockdowns and other COVID-19 measures.
Our current situation is also nothing like the Great Depression. That is horrifically hyperbolic.
I also get supremely annoyed by the hyperbolic pessimism AND the shit historical comparisons we read here regularly.
"Great Depression-level situation," it doesn't really seem all that hyperbolic to say that this severe pandemic and all of the economic turmoil its bringing is a Great Depression level event.
Thousands of people dying every day, tons of people are out of work and its obviously difficult to find new work in the middle of a pandemic, videos of huge lines of cars going to get food from food banks.
And I'm sure it'll get worse, once the pandemic aspect has stopped raging so hard and we've seen enough vaccines roll out to more or less get the reins on this situation we're still going to have the economic downturn to contend with, and its been, what, slightly more than a decade since the Great Recession? America's economic situation has been tumultuous for the past decade or so to put it politely.
On January 28 2021 02:36 Zambrah wrote: "Great Depression-level situation," it doesn't really seem all that hyperbolic to say that this severe pandemic and all of the economic turmoil its bringing is a Great Depression level event.
Thousands of people dying every day, tons of people are out of work and its obviously difficult to find new work in the middle of a pandemic, videos of huge lines of cars going to get food from food banks.
And I'm sure it'll get worse, once the pandemic aspect has stopped raging so hard and we've seen enough vaccines roll out to more or less get the reins on this situation we're still going to have the economic downturn to contend with, and its been, what, slightly more than a decade since the Great Recession? America's economic situation has been tumultuous for the past decade or so to put it politely.
It's absolutely nothing like the great depression where 60% of americans ended up under the poverty line and 25% of the children were malnourished, not to mention your comparisons of inequalities between now and the french revolution which seriously gives me a headache.
I really am sick of this kind of hyperbolic, apocalyptic bs.
I'm all on board the "the pandemic is a massive economic problem" train, but every possible metric proves your comparison of the Great Depression and our current economic situation flatly wrong.
The Great Depression was so utterly and completely catastrophic to the economy on a level that no one that is alive has ever experienced.
This is why we haven't labeled any recessions since then a depression - its just never been close to that.
On January 28 2021 03:00 Stratos_speAr wrote: I'm all on board the "the pandemic is a massive economic problem" train, but every possible metric proves your comparison of the Great Depression and our current economic situation flatly wrong.
The Great Depression was so utterly and completely catastrophic to the economy on a level that no one that is alive has ever experienced.
This is why we haven't labeled any recessions since then a depression - its just never been close to that.
I won't say the Coronavirus Pandemic is a Great Depression on a purely economic scale, I'm talking as a whole, including the thousands of daily deaths and everything to do with the pandemic.
The Coronavirus has laid a lot of the severely shitty parts of the US pretty bare, from how awful relying on employer provided healthcare is, to the economic precarity so many people in the US live with.
The terrible economic stuff is still quite bad though, and we probably havent seen the worst of it (LegalLord is likely infinitely more capable of talking about the nature of the American economy and what we might expect once the virus-murder-y parts of the pandemic have eased) but that factored in with thousands of daily deaths (and god knows how many permanent life altering consequences that one may survive to suffer through) surely makes this something that hangs with the Great Depression as Seriously Bad Shit That Has Happened In The US.
Again, I am not and have not said its the same as the Great Depression on a raw economic scale, but as a major event in US history the Coronavirus Pandemic is quite the major event.
On January 27 2021 19:53 Zambrah wrote: What are the odds this thing where Reddit fucks with the stock market and wrecks a hedge fund has any impact on the farce that is the American belief that the stock market is the economy?
Can America afford to admit its a farce? Or are its roots so deep that it would bring the economy crashing down and make the great depression look like a fun picnic?
Would it even do anything positive? most Politicians don't want to help the lower and middle or they could do so any time they wanted. Exposing the lie of the stock market won't change that, they would simply find something else to cover for their inaction.
Let me fix that for you.
I mostly hope it has an effect on the populace's perception, but I don't think this will see enough MSM play to really spread that far.
I'm just kind of tired of the state of things economically. Situations like this make me wonder what it takes to see America actually take a shift towards giving a proper shit about its underclass.
Unless we get a 'Great Depression v2.0', I doubt we will see any significant short term shifts. We might be a bit luckier in the longer-term, as the millennial generation gets more positions of power.
The Great Depression was brought up in relation to the severity of an event that might spur short term change.
Never meant to be a 1:1 sort of comparison of the Great Depression's economy, just of the overall scale and severity of the two events.
We're looking about as solid as the year 1930. Obviously we're not in the mid-1930s after the depression already took off, but the comparisons to the 1920s that led into them and the stock insanity that gave way to fundamental economic failings are apt enough.
Possible but far from guaranteed that we'll get a downturn severe enough that it'll justify the comparison to the full depression, but for now the comparisons to the years 1929 and 1930 are more than justified. Comparing the 1920s to the 2010s is also not entirely unwarranted. The faux outrage about that anyone dare even make that comparison out of some misplaced notion that it couldn't happen again is laughable.
On January 28 2021 03:23 LegalLord wrote: We're looking about as solid as the year 1930. Obviously we're not in the mid-1930s after the depression already took off, but the comparisons to the 1920s that led into them and the stock insanity that gave way to fundamental economic failings are apt enough.
Possible but far from guaranteed that we'll get a downturn severe enough that it'll justify the comparison to the full depression, but for now the comparisons to the years 1929 and 1930 are more than justified. Comparing the 1920s to the 2010s is also not entirely unwarranted. The faux outrage about that anyone dare even make that comparison out of some misplaced notion that it couldn't happen again is laughable.
It's not "something like that couldn't happen again".
It's "it's disrespectful to both the current situation and those that lived through the past situation to make false comparisons that end up delegitimizing what is actually happening."
The economic situation, in-and-of-itself, is incredibly tame compared to the Great Depression, particularly since the economic impact is much shorter term and is also something that is almost entirely caused by government public health policies and short-term fear of being in public. These are also economic effects that are not affecting all industries equally.
The loss of life and other ancillary effects are more comparable to the AIDS crisis or the Spanish Flu pandemic.
Even if the eventual development of a Great Depression-like economic downturn is a possibility due to similarities to the pre-Depression economic situation, trying to compare the pandemic to the Great Depression is simply inaccurate.
Nah. The economic effects and situation are absolutely comparable and there's nothing "disrespectful" about making the comparison. Not really any justification for getting upset on behalf of the people who lived through the 1930s.
On January 28 2021 03:23 LegalLord wrote: We're looking about as solid as the year 1930. Obviously we're not in the mid-1930s after the depression already took off, but the comparisons to the 1920s that led into them and the stock insanity that gave way to fundamental economic failings are apt enough.
Possible but far from guaranteed that we'll get a downturn severe enough that it'll justify the comparison to the full depression, but for now the comparisons to the years 1929 and 1930 are more than justified. Comparing the 1920s to the 2010s is also not entirely unwarranted. The faux outrage about that anyone dare even make that comparison out of some misplaced notion that it couldn't happen again is laughable.
I am not outraged, I say it's super dumb. For every similarity between 1929 ans 2020, or the Corona crisis and the Great Depression I find you five reasons why the situations has nothing to do with each other whatsoever.
But whatever, man. After all you have a pretty good record when it comes to statements of that quality, so I probably won't change your mind.
On January 28 2021 03:23 LegalLord wrote: We're looking about as solid as the year 1930. Obviously we're not in the mid-1930s after the depression already took off, but the comparisons to the 1920s that led into them and the stock insanity that gave way to fundamental economic failings are apt enough.
Possible but far from guaranteed that we'll get a downturn severe enough that it'll justify the comparison to the full depression, but for now the comparisons to the years 1929 and 1930 are more than justified. Comparing the 1920s to the 2010s is also not entirely unwarranted. The faux outrage about that anyone dare even make that comparison out of some misplaced notion that it couldn't happen again is laughable.
It's not "something like that couldn't happen again".
It's "it's disrespectful to both the current situation and those that lived through the past situation to make false comparisons that end up delegitimizing what is actually happening."
The economic situation, in-and-of-itself, is incredibly tame compared to the Great Depression, particularly since the economic impact is much shorter term and is also something that is almost entirely caused by government public health policies and short-term fear of being in public. These are also economic effects that are not affecting all industries equally.
The loss of life and other ancillary effects are more comparable to the AIDS crisis or the Spanish Flu pandemic.
Even if the eventual development of a Great Depression-like economic downturn is a possibility due to similarities to the pre-Depression economic situation, trying to compare the pandemic to the Great Depression is simply inaccurate.
According to Wikipedia (I bring only the choicest of sources) America has seen about 700,000 dead from HIV/AIDS since the start of the AIDS pandemic, the Corona virus has been a lot worse on the death front since its so easily transmissible, and since its spreading in that more generalized way its impacting the economy in a way the AIDS pandemic didn't. To be fair though, the AIDS pandemic was happening during a time when America wasn't as wealth-polarized as now, which probably helps. Corona virus will probably be worse overall when it comes to death toll in the US, but I suppose whether or not itll be in the realm of AIDS remains to be seen since we're "only" 400K deaths deep or so, and we're starting to see the vaccine rollouts happen, so we might see that four some thousand deaths start to properly taper off as the pandemic gets under control.
According to the CDC apparently about 675,000 people died from the Spanish Flu in the US, and considering population growth and population concentration thats probably going to be a lot more comparable. Having hit in the period where WWI was ending probably didn't do anyone any favors there either. Spanish Flu probably would've been a bigger part of American history if it didn't rub up against WWI, though. It'd be like having the Corona virus run up against WWII, Corona virus would still be awful but... I mean its a World War (the nastier one too, imo) and its very very hard to compete with a World War in the realm of severity lol. That being said, the Spanish Flu killed like 5x as many Americans as WWI did, so it was still a pretty awful time.
I wish it was easier to isolate Spanish Flu from the WWI aspect of it's time, because its a so much more apt and interesting comparison to make with the Coronavirus, but WWI really seems to drown it out.
Also I dont see how comparing an incredibly severe event in American history to an ongoing incredibly severe event in American history is delegitimizing anything, the fact that the Coronavirus would be argued as on the scale of the Great Depression says a lot about how serious the pandemic is, its not really downplaying it, or delegitimizing it imo.
On January 27 2021 01:20 JimmiC wrote: I'm not sure why so many people think that taking wealth away from the super rich is going to hurt anyone other than the super rich. And even them it won't really impact. Companies like Amazon not paying taxes and Bezos on his way to trillions is not helping even the middle or upper class. I just don't get it.
That depends on how you do it. A wealth tax for example is largely ineffective and you're taxing capital which is used for economic investment. Investment drives long term gains and taxing that is counterproductive. Much better ways would be things like a property tax, land value tax or high VAT for luxury products.
You can use pretty much any kind of value for investment, including loans on land, property and products. And people buying luxury products put their value into the producer, so that's basically the same argument as with companies with the difference that you aren't supporting bubbles like the Tesla stock. Let's face it, if Bezos was forced to sell Amazon stocks to pay for taxes on his absurd wealth others would buy these and Amazon wouldn't loose much. Naturally Bezos loyalty lies a bit with these shares, so you don't want to force him to sell all of these, but not significantly taxing the richest people of the planet because the majority of their wealth is in the stock market is beyond absurd when the real result would just be that this wealth gets distributed more and others with the necessary royalties would buy these stocks. You'd just get some money out of the top and a more evenish distribution among the top earners.
When you have to sell stocks or any other asset to pay a tax and the government spends it you reduce savings. Savings reduce return on capital and increase labour productivity and real wages. Long term its savings which drives economic growth rates and not consumption. In addition wealth taxes are most burdensome on entrepreneurs when their company is still private and liquidity constrained. A wealth tax is both a disincentive to save and innovate.
Ideally if you want to tax the rich you want to tax them without decreasing their incentive to use their money productively. Which is why property taxes, progressive vat, closing loopholes etc are much better.
On January 27 2021 01:20 JimmiC wrote: I'm not sure why so many people think that taking wealth away from the super rich is going to hurt anyone other than the super rich. And even them it won't really impact. Companies like Amazon not paying taxes and Bezos on his way to trillions is not helping even the middle or upper class. I just don't get it.
That depends on how you do it. A wealth tax for example is largely ineffective and you're taxing capital which is used for economic investment. Investment drives long term gains and taxing that is counterproductive. Much better ways would be things like a property tax, land value tax or high VAT for luxury products.
On January 27 2021 02:32 NewSunshine wrote: If the working poor suddenly starting making enough to eke out a modest living, they would suddenly be able to manage their debts better, and/or take on less debt, which definitely seems to me to be one of the genuine reasons why it hasn't happened. If there's one group that gets its lobbying done to ensure its own interest, it's the banks.
Not really. Banks want you to pay your debts back. Bad debts are very expensive for banks. People with higher wages taking loans reduces the risk and increases the value of the assets in case they sell it to someone else.
Hmm. You're not going to convince me that taxing more Bezos and Amazon will destroy their business or limit their investments. The guy's basically a dragon hoarding gold at this point. Also banks don't want you to pay your debts back, they want you to pay the interest as long as possible, so they make more money. And if you suddenly can't pay it anymore, they'll sell it to other players in the market who will try to pressure the debt holder.
I did not advocate for or against taxing rich people. My point is that there are different ways to tax rich people and some ways are much better than others.
My experience working at a bank is different. It's true banks don't want you to pay early but they do want you to pay back eventually. Risk departments are very conservative and will always prefer someone who earns more and has the capacity to pay back everything else equal. This was a little different before the financial crisis but since then a lot has changed.
You are now comparing deaths from a pandemic to an economic depression. They are not situations that are comparable. I think it is safe to say this is hyperbolic one way or another.
All this comparisions to the great depression or even the french revolution are just soo fucking damn laughalblae. If you make them, your obviously just an uninformed moron. As far as i know people aren't starfing agogo on US/Wherever streets. So stop bringing taht bullshit up. Its also very doubtfull that this would happen if the whole market actually crashes, why would it? The "real" part of the economy would work on.
On January 27 2021 19:53 Zambrah wrote: What are the odds this thing where Reddit fucks with the stock market and wrecks a hedge fund has any impact on the farce that is the American belief that the stock market is the economy?
Can America afford to admit its a farce? Or are its roots so deep that it would bring the economy crashing down and make the great depression look like a fun picnic?
I was under the impression everyone knew it was a farce but also knew that politicians didn't want to be left carrying the baby when the whole thing popped? Here's Trump saying the same from 5 1/2 years ago, people remember this right? Surprising how long they can keep it all going really.
Seriously, can you just shut up for like forever? All your prophecies since the moron got voted in (over) 4 years ago have beeen wrong. Your a bad, bad troll. I hate you .
At this point i just assume that nettles is banned on twitter, reddit, facebook and wherever else and just for that reason shows up here from time to time.
On January 28 2021 15:11 Velr wrote: Seriously, can you just shut up for like forever? All your prophecies since the moron got voted in (over) 4 years ago have beeen wrong. Your a bad, bad troll. I hate you .
At this point i just assume that nettles is banned on twitter, reddit, facebook and wherever else and just for that reason shows up here from time to time.
Eat (even more) glue.
Honestly i could say the same for you? Your toxicity isn't wanted here + Show Spoiler +
My point was more that our current calculations results in millions of preventable deaths from poverty and unimaginable concentrations of wealth leading to yachts with helipads and mini yachts inside. Instead of no helipad yachts and no (or at least far fewer) preventable deaths from poverty.
So that if we used them in reference to reopening amid the pandemic they would likely conclude more poor people need to die to perpetuate the concentration of wealth at the top. Not because it is "worth it" based on a objective CBA, but because they literally mean that if letting someone die is more profitable then letting them live there isn't a built-in reasoning for why they shouldn't die for more profit.
This is one of the thru and thru dumbest posts i have ever seen.
It is incoherent, it has no idea behind it, its just an absolute moron rambling against stuff he hasn't the faintest clue about. You should feel ashamed to be that uninformed/indoctrinated... Seriously, most 14 year olds edgy poems are closer to reality thanthis giant pile of crap.
Shame on you.. Retard.
User was warned for this post.
On July 19 2019 09:53 Velr wrote: Are you really that much of a clueless asshole?
You got no plan, you got no idea, all you know is that now is "bad". I doubt you can even explain why exactly it is bad, your just some stupid, bland ideologue, like the students i see on my way to work that sell 40 year old marxist literature that even modern marxists don't see as relevant anymore.
Your. the. worst.
User was temp banned for this post.
There was nothing controversial in what i said.I claimed previous presidents have known it's a bubble and have then continued to blow up the bubble while in office in order not to be left with the consequences of popping the bubble.If you read the post and watched the 30 second clip you'd see that wasn't a pro Trump post in any form.
And if you want bad prophecies go back and look through the hundreds of pages on here during the Mueller Report era.
On January 28 2021 15:11 Velr wrote: Seriously, can you just shut up for like forever? All your prophecies since the moron got voted in (over) 4 years ago have beeen wrong. Your a bad, bad troll. I hate you .
At this point i just assume that nettles is banned on twitter, reddit, facebook and wherever else and just for that reason shows up here from time to time.
Eat (even more) glue.
Honestly i could say the same for you? Your toxicity isn't wanted here + Show Spoiler +
My point was more that our current calculations results in millions of preventable deaths from poverty and unimaginable concentrations of wealth leading to yachts with helipads and mini yachts inside. Instead of no helipad yachts and no (or at least far fewer) preventable deaths from poverty.
So that if we used them in reference to reopening amid the pandemic they would likely conclude more poor people need to die to perpetuate the concentration of wealth at the top. Not because it is "worth it" based on a objective CBA, but because they literally mean that if letting someone die is more profitable then letting them live there isn't a built-in reasoning for why they shouldn't die for more profit.
This is one of the thru and thru dumbest posts i have ever seen.
It is incoherent, it has no idea behind it, its just an absolute moron rambling against stuff he hasn't the faintest clue about. You should feel ashamed to be that uninformed/indoctrinated... Seriously, most 14 year olds edgy poems are closer to reality thanthis giant pile of crap.
Shame on you.. Retard.
User was warned for this post.
On July 19 2019 09:53 Velr wrote: Are you really that much of a clueless asshole?
You got no plan, you got no idea, all you know is that now is "bad". I doubt you can even explain why exactly it is bad, your just some stupid, bland ideologue, like the students i see on my way to work that sell 40 year old marxist literature that even modern marxists don't see as relevant anymore.
Your. the. worst.
User was temp banned for this post.
This might be the first time I've ever agreed with Nettles on something.
GameStop frenzy: up 40% in pre-market The US video games retailer GameStop has reversed last night’s after-hours losses, and jumped a further 40% in pre-market trading as the frenzy continues, with an army of small investors buying the shares. The shares are trading around $490, after briefly venturing above $500. The shares were worth $40 a week ago, and $3.25 in April.
It feels so wrong to me that you can make literal millions with the click of a button (i.e. 'investing'), but someone working 12h a day in two part-time jobs can still be in poverty.
GameStop frenzy: up 40% in pre-market The US video games retailer GameStop has reversed last night’s after-hours losses, and jumped a further 40% in pre-market trading as the frenzy continues, with an army of small investors buying the shares. The shares are trading around $490, after briefly venturing above $500. The shares were worth $40 a week ago, and $3.25 in April.
It feels so wrong to me that you can make literal millions with the click of a button (i.e. 'investing'), but someone working 12h a day in two part-time jobs can still be in poverty.
Yeah. I hate that the most profitable job seems to be to own stuff.
EPT
