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Now that we have a new thread, in order to ensure that this thread continues to meet TL standards and follows the proper guidelines, we will be enforcing the rules in the OP more strictly. Be sure to give them a complete and thorough read before posting! NOTE: When providing a source, please provide a very brief summary on what it's about and what purpose it adds to the discussion. The supporting statement should clearly explain why the subject is relevant and needs to be discussed. Please follow this rule especially for tweets.
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On June 29 2020 07:01 plated.rawr wrote:Show nested quote +On June 29 2020 05:31 cLutZ wrote:On June 29 2020 04:34 plated.rawr wrote:On June 28 2020 14:19 cLutZ wrote:On June 27 2020 23:34 Biff The Understudy wrote:On June 27 2020 22:57 Silvanel wrote:
I indeed think we are talking about something else. There is not something like genetic pole, that is obvious. This country has been invaded mutiple times (Mongols, Czechs, Germans, Russians, Swedes, Austrians, Turks, Crimeans) and was also target of many migrations (Jews, Armenians, Chechens, Moldavians, Lithuanians, Cossaks, Ukrainians, georgians and so on) so i would be surprised if most poles were genetically similiar to one another. However culturaly speaking we are very similiar, we share language, cusine, understaning of history, proverbs, stories, religious background and so on. From that point of view we are single culture nation, there are of course local variations but differences are much smaller than say between Boston Irish descendants and New Orlean people of Haitian descent or Mexican immigrants in Austin. Or between russians from Piter/Moskov/Nizny and people in Grozny. We agree. What I mean is that immigrants end up adopting the culture of their host country. It just takes a generation or two  And hopefully they also bring something with them, because culture is something fluid and dynamic rather than static. And when mixed it gets enriched rather than threatened. Assimilation is important and does and has happened. But assimilation is also a process (particularly if you want it to be in 1-2 generations), one that involves what more extreme elements call "violence", a definition I'd disagree with. But it does involve pain. There are examples of large groups living in the same general geographies of a culture that dont assimilate. Gypsies and Amish come to mind as egregious examples, but other obviously exist to a lesser extent for anyone who is awake. Quick question to clarify here - are you mixing words here and mean 'integration' instead of 'assimilation'? Both seem similar to me. The northern carpet baggers in the 1860s and southern blacks in the 1900s moving north had similar problems as immigrants do. They're not the same, though. Integration is about embracing local norms and traditions while still staying in touch with your root culture, while assimilation is abandoning your history and culture to replace it with the dominant. Assimilation can be done willingly surely, but it's typically associated with state force in attempt to eradicate culture, such as with Norway and the sami people, France's attempt with Algerie, and currently China and the uighur people.
From that standard there has really never been assimilation in the US outside of what happened to imported slaves. It is not how the word is used colloquially in America.
@Moohdoo which one? The carpetbaggers were reviled because they were seen as occupiers trying to impose Yankee values, which wasn't really untrue. The black migration was about finding economic opportunity in northern cities, but people still felt like they had to leave their home neighborhoods and were displaced.
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On June 29 2020 07:37 Slydie wrote:Show nested quote +On June 29 2020 06:09 Mohdoo wrote:
I feel like people will be writing PhD thesis about Florida's covid situation. What a complete and total dumpster fire. Funny story: My uncle used to have a theory that Florida, despite its old population, was saved form the virus by the warm weather. I guess that one has gone out the window... Will the US have days with 3k+ deaths in a couple of weeks?
The not funny part is that in 2 weeks, in states who failed to stop the virus and didn't take any actions atm will know another huge increase.
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Young people tend to work those shitty jobs where you have to show up to do them, which leads to other people getting sick because of essentials of consumer addiction.
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On June 29 2020 02:10 Liquid`Drone wrote:
Yeah I find the notion that the immigrants who are currently coming to america represent anything remotely comparable to the threat of culture and life of the people currently living in america as what was the case with Columbus and what followed kinda hard to fathom.
Your idea of cultural displacement is either entirely too narrowly defined or you have a failure of imagination. What do you think "cultural appropriation" and hegemony does? There are people who lament globalization as eradication of local and indigenous culture around the world. My point is that there is risk with any immigration of displacing the dominant culture (it usually takes time, often hundreds of years), I just happen to think its relatively overblown and as much risk as there is to displacement from immigrants is displacement from within (I'd argue there's a far greater risk to the American identity and liberal traditional institutions/values from the native 18-35 generation than external immigration).
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On June 29 2020 08:28 Gahlo wrote:Young people tend to work those shitty jobs where you have to show up to do them, which leads to other people getting sick because of essentials of consumer addiction.
You're saying words, but the data suggests you're wrong. You can repeat those words and poor logic, or you can look at the data and make an educated choice of opinion. Up to you.
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On June 29 2020 08:28 Wegandi wrote:Show nested quote +On June 29 2020 02:10 Liquid`Drone wrote:
Yeah I find the notion that the immigrants who are currently coming to america represent anything remotely comparable to the threat of culture and life of the people currently living in america as what was the case with Columbus and what followed kinda hard to fathom. Your idea of cultural displacement is either entirely too narrowly defined or you have a failure of imagination. What do you think "cultural appropriation" and hegemony does? There are people who lament globalization as eradication of local and indigenous culture around the world. My point is that there is risk with any immigration of displacing the dominant culture (it usually takes time, often hundreds of years), I just happen to think its relatively overblown and as much risk as there is to displacement from immigrants is displacement from within (I'd argue there's a far greater risk to the American identity and liberal traditional institutions/values from the native 18-35 generation than external immigration).
It’s really weird that you’re talking about cultural appropriation or “displacement” in the context of genocide. I can’t tell if you just don’t see the distinction or if you’re willfully avoiding the subject?
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Deaths lag behind new cases as has been visible for many months now. Florida is booming hard, hospitalizations inevitably follow.
Can you really look at that curve of new cases going exponential and say "everything is fine"?
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On June 29 2020 08:34 ChristianS wrote:Show nested quote +On June 29 2020 08:28 Wegandi wrote:On June 29 2020 02:10 Liquid`Drone wrote:
Yeah I find the notion that the immigrants who are currently coming to america represent anything remotely comparable to the threat of culture and life of the people currently living in america as what was the case with Columbus and what followed kinda hard to fathom. Your idea of cultural displacement is either entirely too narrowly defined or you have a failure of imagination. What do you think "cultural appropriation" and hegemony does? There are people who lament globalization as eradication of local and indigenous culture around the world. My point is that there is risk with any immigration of displacing the dominant culture (it usually takes time, often hundreds of years), I just happen to think its relatively overblown and as much risk as there is to displacement from immigrants is displacement from within (I'd argue there's a far greater risk to the American identity and liberal traditional institutions/values from the native 18-35 generation than external immigration). It’s really weird that you’re talking about cultural appropriation or “displacement” in the context of genocide. I can’t tell if you just don’t see the distinction or if you’re willfully avoiding the subject?
My first sentence addressed this. The majority of Native American deaths (and what genocide implies in intent) didn't occur until 200+ years after European immigration. I'm sure, given hindsight that Native Americans would have been quite ardent isolationists. You're the one missing the point. As you are aware there are significant demographic changes happening in the US. Who knows what is going to happen in 200 years, let alone in 100. It's not inconceivable that the dominant Anglo-Christian culture of the US is displaced.
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On June 29 2020 08:40 Gorsameth wrote:Deaths lag behind new cases as has been visible for many months now. Florida is booming hard, hospitalizations inevitably follow. Can you really look at that curve of new cases going exponential and say "everything is fine"?
I'm not concerned with raw case numbers, I'm concerned with who is infected. The data suggests primarily younger and healthier individuals with associated far lower hospitalization and death rates (as we know <70 y/o covid is extremely mild). Testing has increased 50% (see page 2) with positive cases tending in the 10-14% the last 2 weeks. Take everything into account and I'm not too worried. We knew that cases were going to go up when things opened up. Now that they are people are freaking out when hospital and death rates are flat? It's hysteria.
For the record hospitalization rates for the 15-24 is 2%, 25-34 6%, and 35-44 9%. This is the group that primarily make up the vast majority of C19 cases in the past 2+ weeks.
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On June 29 2020 08:47 Wegandi wrote:Show nested quote +On June 29 2020 08:40 Gorsameth wrote:Deaths lag behind new cases as has been visible for many months now. Florida is booming hard, hospitalizations inevitably follow. Can you really look at that curve of new cases going exponential and say "everything is fine"? I'm not concerned with raw case numbers, I'm concerned with who is infected. The data suggests primarily younger and healthier individuals with associated far lower hospitalization and death rates (as we know <70 y/o covid is extremely mild). Testing has increased 50% (see page 2) with positive cases tending in the 10-14% the last 2 weeks. Take everything into account and I'm not too worried. We knew that cases were going to go up when things opened up. Now that they are people are freaking out when hospital and death rates are flat? It's hysteria. For the record hospitalization rates for the 15-24 is 2%, 25-34 6%, and 35-44 9%. This is the group that primarily make up the vast majority of C19 cases in the past 2+ weeks. If your definition of extremely mild contains long term lung damage then yeah, totally mild. Walking up a stairs becomes a challenge but your not dead so just pretend it's safe for younger people.
And again, since you seem to have not read it last time, hospitalisation and death lag behind new cases.
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On June 29 2020 08:54 Gorsameth wrote:Show nested quote +On June 29 2020 08:47 Wegandi wrote:On June 29 2020 08:40 Gorsameth wrote:Deaths lag behind new cases as has been visible for many months now. Florida is booming hard, hospitalizations inevitably follow. Can you really look at that curve of new cases going exponential and say "everything is fine"? I'm not concerned with raw case numbers, I'm concerned with who is infected. The data suggests primarily younger and healthier individuals with associated far lower hospitalization and death rates (as we know <70 y/o covid is extremely mild). Testing has increased 50% (see page 2) with positive cases tending in the 10-14% the last 2 weeks. Take everything into account and I'm not too worried. We knew that cases were going to go up when things opened up. Now that they are people are freaking out when hospital and death rates are flat? It's hysteria. For the record hospitalization rates for the 15-24 is 2%, 25-34 6%, and 35-44 9%. This is the group that primarily make up the vast majority of C19 cases in the past 2+ weeks. If your definition of extremely mild contains long term lung damage then yeah, totally mild. Walking up a stairs becomes a challenge but your not dead so just pretend it's safe for younger people. And again, since you seem to have not read it last time, hospitalisation and death lag behind new cases.
Seriously, you're using anecdotal evidence? Yeah, fibrosis is a possible complication, but it is extremely rare. Statistically, the covid impact on the under 45 group is extremely mild (no one disputes this, but dumb dumbs who use anecdotes when looking at statistics).
We'll see, but I suspect those rates will remain flat if the trend of who is infected remains similar. It does matter who is infected, regardless of what you think. (This is why Cuomo should receive the idiot of the year award for forcing covid positive elderly to co-habitate with non-infected. It's why NY is such a shit show with Covid)
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On June 29 2020 08:29 Wegandi wrote:Show nested quote +On June 29 2020 08:28 Gahlo wrote:Young people tend to work those shitty jobs where you have to show up to do them, which leads to other people getting sick because of essentials of consumer addiction. You're saying words, but the data suggests you're wrong. You can repeat those words and poor logic, or you can look at the data and make an educated choice of opinion. Up to you.
Just because a case exists outside of a hospital doesn't make it any less serious of an issue. If anything, it makes it more serious because that person being sick out and about continues to cause a greater threat to the health of the community.
So, yeah, if a bunch of people are COVID confirmed and aren't in hospitals because they're young/healthy enough to not need it(possibly, yet) it's still a big deal - because they're more likely to be stuck in some shitty retail job during a pandemic where they have to show up or go bankrupt.
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Respiratory illnesses often result in long term fatigue. People often conflate influenza with the common cold but the flu fucks you over while the cold does not. Most people actually do not catch the flu.
The symptoms of chronic fatigue for lengthy periods of time was not uncommon with the 2002 SARS outbreak, even for people with very mild symptoms. Yes, this years coronavirus isn’t as deadly but it is still a serious respiratory illness. It isn’t something that is only a notable risk to old people and anyone who truly believes that old people and the immune compromised are the only risk demographic is a moron sorry to say.
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The white power thing is probably the most openly egregious thing Trump has tweeted this year. He's had plenty of dog whistley things, but that's in a separate category. It was bad enough GOP senators were openly saying he had to take it down. (a member of his cabinet denied having seen it, moments after he was shown it on a Sunday show). Trump has since deleted it, but to me it is the most inarguable proof of overt appeals to racists.
As someone who is literally in Florida and about to leave, I have to say it is gonna be really bad. Literally no one wears masks unless they are required to, and social distancing is like some alien thing they don't seem to understand. Workers at restaurants are starting to test positive, and they have a very high elderly population. I could show you a picture of the airport right now - at least half the travelers aren't wearing masks (which are provided, free of charge).
Bars were closed a couple days ago, but outside of that statewide leadership is as absent as national leadership. Individual counties are requiring masks, leading to some fairly amusing counter arguments (Christians and "I will not be muzzled like a mad dog!" Stand out to me).
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On June 29 2020 09:16 Gahlo wrote:Show nested quote +On June 29 2020 08:29 Wegandi wrote:On June 29 2020 08:28 Gahlo wrote:Young people tend to work those shitty jobs where you have to show up to do them, which leads to other people getting sick because of essentials of consumer addiction. You're saying words, but the data suggests you're wrong. You can repeat those words and poor logic, or you can look at the data and make an educated choice of opinion. Up to you. Just because a case exists outside of a hospital doesn't make it any less serious of an issue. If anything, it makes it more serious because that person being sick out and about continues to cause a greater threat to the health of the community. So, yeah, if a bunch of people are COVID confirmed and aren't in hospitals because they're young/healthy enough to not need it(possibly, yet) it's still a big deal - because they're more likely to be stuck in some shitty retail job during a pandemic where they have to show up or go bankrupt.
Not to mention those young people who probably won't die can enthusiastically infect other people.
At the very least you're looking at further economic damage because a lot of young workers are going to be quarantined or hospitalised/infecting other people who'll need the above.
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On June 29 2020 10:27 iamthedave wrote:Show nested quote +On June 29 2020 09:16 Gahlo wrote:On June 29 2020 08:29 Wegandi wrote:On June 29 2020 08:28 Gahlo wrote:Young people tend to work those shitty jobs where you have to show up to do them, which leads to other people getting sick because of essentials of consumer addiction. You're saying words, but the data suggests you're wrong. You can repeat those words and poor logic, or you can look at the data and make an educated choice of opinion. Up to you. Just because a case exists outside of a hospital doesn't make it any less serious of an issue. If anything, it makes it more serious because that person being sick out and about continues to cause a greater threat to the health of the community. So, yeah, if a bunch of people are COVID confirmed and aren't in hospitals because they're young/healthy enough to not need it(possibly, yet) it's still a big deal - because they're more likely to be stuck in some shitty retail job during a pandemic where they have to show up or go bankrupt. Not to mention those young people who probably won't die can enthusiastically infect other people. At the very least you're looking at further economic damage because a lot of young workers are going to be quarantined or hospitalised/infecting other people who'll need the above.
Precisely my point. I'm already hearing people grumbling about how the youth is making this worse as if there's an option for them not to.
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Norway28923 Posts
On June 29 2020 08:28 Wegandi wrote:Show nested quote +On June 29 2020 02:10 Liquid`Drone wrote:
Yeah I find the notion that the immigrants who are currently coming to america represent anything remotely comparable to the threat of culture and life of the people currently living in america as what was the case with Columbus and what followed kinda hard to fathom. Your idea of cultural displacement is either entirely too narrowly defined or you have a failure of imagination. What do you think "cultural appropriation" and hegemony does? There are people who lament globalization as eradication of local and indigenous culture around the world. My point is that there is risk with any immigration of displacing the dominant culture (it usually takes time, often hundreds of years), I just happen to think its relatively overblown and as much risk as there is to displacement from immigrants is displacement from within (I'd argue there's a far greater risk to the American identity and liberal traditional institutions/values from the native 18-35 generation than external immigration).
I mean, I don't think I share your attachment to the 'american identity'. While I am very sympathetic towards the idealized notion that america is not a nation state but one open to anyone who wants to migrate there and adopt the american identity, this very notion seems to be one that is challenged by the people who are the strongest defendants of the american identity. The various elements comprising the 'american dream' are ones I can't really say I believe are grounded in reality; social mobility is lower in the US than in many other western countries. I also think parts of the US has been somewhat exclusionary in terms of what groups are given the chance to embrace being american while also preserving their original culture. (Again, the same groups that are the strongest defendants of the idea that the american identity is something worth preserving. To be clear - I don't include you in this group. )
Anyway, that's besides the point of my post. Native Americans suffered far worse than the gradual erosion of their culture due to outside influence, come on. The parallel just isn't a good one. Also, I agree that the 'american identity' is from more pressure from the 18-35 year old current generation of americans than it is from the outside, but that doesn't seem to be a statement backing up your overall argument?
As a sidenote, I'm not on the same page at all as much of the american left in terms of cultural appropriation. I consider that a good, and it's part of why I'm a huge fan of multiculturalism. I mean, I'm not a fan of the perversion of other cultures for financial gain, but the notion that white people shouldn't be allowed to create a mexican restaurant or that chinese dresses are exclusive to chinese people seems extremely flawed to me. Dressing up as a native american for halloween isn't really 'there', and anything that approaches ridicule is different, but very much of what is considered cultural appropriation to me looks like cultural appreciation, and that, imo, should be highly encouraged.
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EPT
