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I put the offtopic into spoiler.
+ Show Spoiler +
@Biff The Understudy
I dont deny that cultures influence one another, this is obvious, plus the romans borrowing a lot from greeks is well known fact. That being said i do think we can still use terms like 'roman', 'russian', 'british', 'polish' culture. Its hard to define them specifically but there are some things that most of the people of one 'culture' share, the langauge, the understanding of history, customs, points of referneces (proverbs, stories, litareature, art etc.). And i want to itarate that my initial point was that large multiethnic states are usually dominated by one culture.
And to clarify what i mean by multiethnic, i wouldnt say Poland today is multiethnic - 96.88% of citizens think of themselves as polish. France is for me borderline - 85% white (i assume mostly french speaking), US is multiethnic.
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On June 26 2020 21:09 GreenHorizons wrote:Show nested quote +On June 26 2020 21:04 IgnE wrote:On June 26 2020 16:41 GreenHorizons wrote:On June 26 2020 16:35 cLutZ wrote:On June 26 2020 16:18 StalkerTL wrote:
As an aside, I don’t think the person left you hanging because he’s South East Asian. He left because he most likely doesn’t have valid insurance, doesn’t want to pay and doesn’t want to get in trouble. That’s not an ethnic or cultural background thing, I don’t know why that’s even relevant since people of all ethnic, cultural and socioeconomic backgrounds do shitty things like that no matter which country you live in.
The civil responsibility in a lot of societies is instilled via governments providing services and properly designed urban environments. In a lot of cases, American cities are designed to isolate people from each other. Is there any surprise that there’s a breakdown in civic responsibility when the urban planning and provision of services in America is like what it is? The person who hit me is a professor. It is a cultural thing. He is a sociopath as far as I am concerned. Edit: If it was not clear. He has presented his actions as normal in court. Have you considered he doesn't value private property as equivalent to human life like you have with your armchair sociopath diagnosis? So would you not be phased by that behavior at all? You don't mind people breaking your shit? There's a huge gap between being upset (presuming there was damage that I didn't read about) and the racist diagnosis of sociopath we got from ClutZ
I find responses like this bizarre because obviously if you have read my post history your would intuit that there is a large SE Asian community in my neighborhood (unless you think my complaints about 20+ person Rugby and Cricket games happening in April were the result of some huge Australian community in America). Indeed, to come to your conclusion you seemingly assumed this was a one-off incident that I drew wide ranging conclusions from, instead of the truth: It is simply the capstone of a large array of bizarre and confusing detrimental and antisocial behavior that I have observed over the last few years.
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On June 27 2020 01:34 cLutZ wrote:Show nested quote +On June 26 2020 21:09 GreenHorizons wrote:On June 26 2020 21:04 IgnE wrote:On June 26 2020 16:41 GreenHorizons wrote:On June 26 2020 16:35 cLutZ wrote:On June 26 2020 16:18 StalkerTL wrote:
As an aside, I don’t think the person left you hanging because he’s South East Asian. He left because he most likely doesn’t have valid insurance, doesn’t want to pay and doesn’t want to get in trouble. That’s not an ethnic or cultural background thing, I don’t know why that’s even relevant since people of all ethnic, cultural and socioeconomic backgrounds do shitty things like that no matter which country you live in.
The civil responsibility in a lot of societies is instilled via governments providing services and properly designed urban environments. In a lot of cases, American cities are designed to isolate people from each other. Is there any surprise that there’s a breakdown in civic responsibility when the urban planning and provision of services in America is like what it is? The person who hit me is a professor. It is a cultural thing. He is a sociopath as far as I am concerned. Edit: If it was not clear. He has presented his actions as normal in court. Have you considered he doesn't value private property as equivalent to human life like you have with your armchair sociopath diagnosis? So would you not be phased by that behavior at all? You don't mind people breaking your shit? There's a huge gap between being upset (presuming there was damage that I didn't read about) and the racist diagnosis of sociopath we got from ClutZ I find responses like this bizarre because obviously if you have read my post history your would intuit that there is a large SE Asian community in my neighborhood (unless you think my complaints about 20+ person Rugby and Cricket games happening in April were the result of some huge Australian community in America). Indeed, to come to your conclusion you seemingly assumed this was a one-off incident that I drew wide ranging conclusions from, instead of the truth: It is simply the capstone of a large array of bizarre and confusing detrimental and antisocial behavior that I have observed over the last few years.
Based on the large array of bizarre and confusing detrimental and antisocial behavior would you say that in your experience all south east asians have no respect for property rights?
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On June 27 2020 01:50 GreenHorizons wrote:Show nested quote +On June 27 2020 01:34 cLutZ wrote:On June 26 2020 21:09 GreenHorizons wrote:On June 26 2020 21:04 IgnE wrote:On June 26 2020 16:41 GreenHorizons wrote:On June 26 2020 16:35 cLutZ wrote:On June 26 2020 16:18 StalkerTL wrote:
As an aside, I don’t think the person left you hanging because he’s South East Asian. He left because he most likely doesn’t have valid insurance, doesn’t want to pay and doesn’t want to get in trouble. That’s not an ethnic or cultural background thing, I don’t know why that’s even relevant since people of all ethnic, cultural and socioeconomic backgrounds do shitty things like that no matter which country you live in.
The civil responsibility in a lot of societies is instilled via governments providing services and properly designed urban environments. In a lot of cases, American cities are designed to isolate people from each other. Is there any surprise that there’s a breakdown in civic responsibility when the urban planning and provision of services in America is like what it is? The person who hit me is a professor. It is a cultural thing. He is a sociopath as far as I am concerned. Edit: If it was not clear. He has presented his actions as normal in court. Have you considered he doesn't value private property as equivalent to human life like you have with your armchair sociopath diagnosis? So would you not be phased by that behavior at all? You don't mind people breaking your shit? There's a huge gap between being upset (presuming there was damage that I didn't read about) and the racist diagnosis of sociopath we got from ClutZ I find responses like this bizarre because obviously if you have read my post history your would intuit that there is a large SE Asian community in my neighborhood (unless you think my complaints about 20+ person Rugby and Cricket games happening in April were the result of some huge Australian community in America). Indeed, to come to your conclusion you seemingly assumed this was a one-off incident that I drew wide ranging conclusions from, instead of the truth: It is simply the capstone of a large array of bizarre and confusing detrimental and antisocial behavior that I have observed over the last few years. Based on the large array of bizarre and confusing detrimental and antisocial behavior would you say that in your experience all south east asians have no respect for property rights?
No, I would instead say they have very different social norms about things like property and littering that makes the community very discordant at this point in time. I'd also say that, if you tried to create a classic 1900 era mutual aid society in my neighborhood your project would quickly fail because the various communities, despite living in the same geographic area, have vastly different behaviors.
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On June 26 2020 22:22 IgnE wrote:
What is “dominated” supposed to mean though? Having a majority population? One ethnicity or group holding all the political positions? One language of business? A dominant religion? There have been minority/majority permutations for most anything you can think of. Compare South African apartheid, the “new” South Africa, Singapore, places with multiple official languages, places with no official languages, slave polities like Sparta, the British Raj, Brazil, 90’s Yugoslavia ... Like what are we even talking about?
And that gets even more complex in the example of Russia, which consisted historically of several dozen ethnic groups of varying sizes (even BEFORE they started conquering everyone) who gave obeisance to the dominant indo-european ethnic group primarily thought of as 'Russian'; but that dominant group culturally considered the smaller, weaker, subservient ethnic groups to be real Russia, due in large part to their own culture being subsumed by Franco-European culture at the time.
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On June 27 2020 02:52 cLutZ wrote:Show nested quote +On June 27 2020 01:50 GreenHorizons wrote:On June 27 2020 01:34 cLutZ wrote:On June 26 2020 21:09 GreenHorizons wrote:On June 26 2020 21:04 IgnE wrote:On June 26 2020 16:41 GreenHorizons wrote:On June 26 2020 16:35 cLutZ wrote:On June 26 2020 16:18 StalkerTL wrote:
As an aside, I don’t think the person left you hanging because he’s South East Asian. He left because he most likely doesn’t have valid insurance, doesn’t want to pay and doesn’t want to get in trouble. That’s not an ethnic or cultural background thing, I don’t know why that’s even relevant since people of all ethnic, cultural and socioeconomic backgrounds do shitty things like that no matter which country you live in.
The civil responsibility in a lot of societies is instilled via governments providing services and properly designed urban environments. In a lot of cases, American cities are designed to isolate people from each other. Is there any surprise that there’s a breakdown in civic responsibility when the urban planning and provision of services in America is like what it is? The person who hit me is a professor. It is a cultural thing. He is a sociopath as far as I am concerned. Edit: If it was not clear. He has presented his actions as normal in court. Have you considered he doesn't value private property as equivalent to human life like you have with your armchair sociopath diagnosis? So would you not be phased by that behavior at all? You don't mind people breaking your shit? There's a huge gap between being upset (presuming there was damage that I didn't read about) and the racist diagnosis of sociopath we got from ClutZ I find responses like this bizarre because obviously if you have read my post history your would intuit that there is a large SE Asian community in my neighborhood (unless you think my complaints about 20+ person Rugby and Cricket games happening in April were the result of some huge Australian community in America). Indeed, to come to your conclusion you seemingly assumed this was a one-off incident that I drew wide ranging conclusions from, instead of the truth: It is simply the capstone of a large array of bizarre and confusing detrimental and antisocial behavior that I have observed over the last few years. Based on the large array of bizarre and confusing detrimental and antisocial behavior would you say that in your experience all south east asians have no respect for property rights? No, I would instead say they have very different social norms about things like property and littering that makes the community very discordant at this point in time. I'd also say that, if you tried to create a classic 1900 era mutual aid society in my neighborhood your project would quickly fail because the various communities, despite living in the same geographic area, have vastly different behaviors.
Or maybe they already have a mutual aid society in existence, but within the SE Asian immigrant community. They just excluded you because you kept complaining about littering.
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On June 27 2020 18:56 Grumbels wrote:Show nested quote +On June 27 2020 02:52 cLutZ wrote:On June 27 2020 01:50 GreenHorizons wrote:On June 27 2020 01:34 cLutZ wrote:On June 26 2020 21:09 GreenHorizons wrote:On June 26 2020 21:04 IgnE wrote:On June 26 2020 16:41 GreenHorizons wrote:On June 26 2020 16:35 cLutZ wrote:On June 26 2020 16:18 StalkerTL wrote:
As an aside, I don’t think the person left you hanging because he’s South East Asian. He left because he most likely doesn’t have valid insurance, doesn’t want to pay and doesn’t want to get in trouble. That’s not an ethnic or cultural background thing, I don’t know why that’s even relevant since people of all ethnic, cultural and socioeconomic backgrounds do shitty things like that no matter which country you live in.
The civil responsibility in a lot of societies is instilled via governments providing services and properly designed urban environments. In a lot of cases, American cities are designed to isolate people from each other. Is there any surprise that there’s a breakdown in civic responsibility when the urban planning and provision of services in America is like what it is? The person who hit me is a professor. It is a cultural thing. He is a sociopath as far as I am concerned. Edit: If it was not clear. He has presented his actions as normal in court. Have you considered he doesn't value private property as equivalent to human life like you have with your armchair sociopath diagnosis? So would you not be phased by that behavior at all? You don't mind people breaking your shit? There's a huge gap between being upset (presuming there was damage that I didn't read about) and the racist diagnosis of sociopath we got from ClutZ I find responses like this bizarre because obviously if you have read my post history your would intuit that there is a large SE Asian community in my neighborhood (unless you think my complaints about 20+ person Rugby and Cricket games happening in April were the result of some huge Australian community in America). Indeed, to come to your conclusion you seemingly assumed this was a one-off incident that I drew wide ranging conclusions from, instead of the truth: It is simply the capstone of a large array of bizarre and confusing detrimental and antisocial behavior that I have observed over the last few years. Based on the large array of bizarre and confusing detrimental and antisocial behavior would you say that in your experience all south east asians have no respect for property rights? No, I would instead say they have very different social norms about things like property and littering that makes the community very discordant at this point in time. I'd also say that, if you tried to create a classic 1900 era mutual aid society in my neighborhood your project would quickly fail because the various communities, despite living in the same geographic area, have vastly different behaviors. Or maybe they already have a mutual aid society in existence, but within the SE Asian immigrant community. They just excluded you because you kept complaining about littering.
Theoretically in the 1900s that might happened. But that's not really evidence in opposition to my point, which was that people are better at cooperation when they have very similar values and norms (my primary example being the family).
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Sorry Silvanel I guess my post was a bit offtopic. I didn't complete my thought. I was intending to point out the differences between a culturally dominant and an ethnically dominant state. It is entirely possible as has been shown throughout history that an ethnically diverse state can be culturally united and have high trust in the state and have the aligned interests that can benefit all within the state, which was one of the stated prerequisites for the high trust society for a state with socialism. There is no need to go that far into history, or into such a grand civilisation, as many European nations today are, or would had been regarded as ethnically diverse by the standards of their formation years ago, yet have been culturally united in some form or another for that period of time.
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On June 26 2020 23:36 Silvanel wrote:I put the offtopic into spoiler. + Show Spoiler +
@Biff The Understudy
I dont deny that cultures influence one another, this is obvious, plus the romans borrowing a lot from greeks is well known fact. That being said i do think we can still use terms like 'roman', 'russian', 'british', 'polish' culture. Its hard to define them specifically but there are some things that most of the people of one 'culture' share, the langauge, the understanding of history, customs, points of referneces (proverbs, stories, litareature, art etc.). And i want to itarate that my initial point was that large multiethnic states are usually dominated by one culture.
And to clarify what i mean by multiethnic, i wouldnt say Poland today is multiethnic - 96.88% of citizens think of themselves as polish. France is for me borderline - 85% white (i assume mostly french speaking), US is multiethnic.
Well, I think we mix up a few things here. You can identify as french or polish without being ethnically french or polish. I am a second generation immigrant, and I consider myself as french as a gauloise inside a camembert inside a baguette inside a beret. And again, people that are completely, utterly french, that you would never differenciate from someone from a family that has been there for hundreds of years are called Terlecki, or Spinozi, because previous waves of immigrations were polish or italian.
And make no mistakes, when poles and italians arrived in France in the late XIXth - early XXth century, they were VERY badly received. They were called "métèques" (which is about as good as the n-word in french) by the right wing press, and villified as invaders and incapable of assimilating.
Now, a few generations later, they do share our understanding of history, our customs, our points of references etc.
But yes, it takes a couple of generations and it is always a work in progress. And they do, in the process, enrich their host culture.
I can tell you, as I am now myself an emmigrant to Norway, that assimilating does not come immediately. There are many things that are foreign and alien to me in norwegian culture, and I will always be more french than norwegian, no matter how hard I try. And that's good. My children will be culturally mixed, and my grand children will probably be as norwegians as a moose in a nitted jumper. And meanwhile, I bring a touch of frenchness to my workplace and the society in which I live, and hopefully it's not that bad a thing 
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I indeed think we are talking about something else. There is not something like genetic pole, that is obvious. This country has been invaded mutiple times (Mongols, Czechs, Germans, Russians, Swedes, Austrians, Turks, Crimeans) and was also target of many migrations (Jews, Armenians, Chechens, Moldavians, Lithuanians, Cossaks, Ukrainians, georgians and so on) so i would be surprised if most poles were genetically similiar to one another. However culturaly speaking we are very similiar, we share language, cusine, understaning of history, proverbs, stories, religious background and so on. From that point of view we are single culture nation, there are of course local variations but differences are much smaller than say between Boston Irish descendants and New Orlean people of Haitian descent or Mexican immigrants in Austin. Or between russians from Piter/Moskov/Nizny and people in Grozny.
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On June 27 2020 22:57 Silvanel wrote:
I indeed think we are talking about something else. There is not something like genetic pole, that is obvious. This country has been invaded mutiple times (Mongols, Czechs, Germans, Russians, Swedes, Austrians, Turks, Crimeans) and was also target of many migrations (Jews, Armenians, Chechens, Moldavians, Lithuanians, Cossaks, Ukrainians, georgians and so on) so i would be surprised if most poles were genetically similiar to one another. However culturaly speaking we are very similiar, we share language, cusine, understaning of history, proverbs, stories, religious background and so on. From that point of view we are single culture nation, there are of course local variations but differences are much smaller than say between Boston Irish descendants and New Orlean people of Haitian descent or Mexican immigrants in Austin. Or between russians from Piter/Moskov/Nizny and people in Grozny.
We agree. What I mean is that immigrants end up adopting the culture of their host country. It just takes a generation or two And hopefully they also bring something with them, because culture is something fluid and dynamic rather than static. And when mixed it gets enriched rather than threatened.
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I wonder how that doesn't completely wreck his credit with veterans. I would be quite pissed if I heard that the foe the president has coveted had put a bounty of my head, and that said president knew it.
The fact he shat on POWs while having dodged the war himself thanks to daddy's connections should not help either. But what to do...
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I live in PA(one of the top 3 in handling COVID). Our 2 week new case tracker went from -19.3 cases per day over the last 14 days last week. This week we only dropped -6 cpd/2 weeks. Cases have been steadily going up over the last few days.
We "went green"(indoor dining, etc) yesterday.
I can only hope my governor isn't trigger shy on shutting down again when the time comes. The policy changes my company put in place for COVID just doesn't work in the stock room I run when they keep slamming us with big trucks. I've had to revert to the standard practices as they're safer. It's a fucking joke.
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On June 27 2020 23:34 Biff The Understudy wrote:Show nested quote +On June 27 2020 22:57 Silvanel wrote:
I indeed think we are talking about something else. There is not something like genetic pole, that is obvious. This country has been invaded mutiple times (Mongols, Czechs, Germans, Russians, Swedes, Austrians, Turks, Crimeans) and was also target of many migrations (Jews, Armenians, Chechens, Moldavians, Lithuanians, Cossaks, Ukrainians, georgians and so on) so i would be surprised if most poles were genetically similiar to one another. However culturaly speaking we are very similiar, we share language, cusine, understaning of history, proverbs, stories, religious background and so on. From that point of view we are single culture nation, there are of course local variations but differences are much smaller than say between Boston Irish descendants and New Orlean people of Haitian descent or Mexican immigrants in Austin. Or between russians from Piter/Moskov/Nizny and people in Grozny. We agree. What I mean is that immigrants end up adopting the culture of their host country. It just takes a generation or two And hopefully they also bring something with them, because culture is something fluid and dynamic rather than static. And when mixed it gets enriched rather than threatened.
Assimilation is important and does and has happened. But assimilation is also a process (particularly if you want it to be in 1-2 generations), one that involves what more extreme elements call "violence", a definition I'd disagree with. But it does involve pain. There are examples of large groups living in the same general geographies of a culture that dont assimilate. Gypsies and Amish come to mind as egregious examples, but other obviously exist to a lesser extent for anyone who is awake.
You have to have nonviolent enforcement of social norms via exclusion or shaming. You have to (unfortunately) have violent enforcement of social norms via policing (Paddy Wagons aren't named after the famous Sheriff John Paddy who caught an infamous band of bank robbers). If you have public schools, they should be geared towards this effect. Having attended them within a generation of today, and seeing the reforms people often propose, this is not even a minor goal of public schools. At worst the schools might be actively resisting this goal. Ideally you would have a lot more open public forums where politicians are forced to hear about the issues facing the community. In one town where I grew up, this was the case. The mayor had to endure lots of that stuff. The mayors in big cities have cut themselves off from communities. Instead they treat it like a Navy port, meant more to facilitate the travel in and out than to serve the communities within.
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On June 28 2020 14:19 cLutZ wrote:Show nested quote +On June 27 2020 23:34 Biff The Understudy wrote:On June 27 2020 22:57 Silvanel wrote:
I indeed think we are talking about something else. There is not something like genetic pole, that is obvious. This country has been invaded mutiple times (Mongols, Czechs, Germans, Russians, Swedes, Austrians, Turks, Crimeans) and was also target of many migrations (Jews, Armenians, Chechens, Moldavians, Lithuanians, Cossaks, Ukrainians, georgians and so on) so i would be surprised if most poles were genetically similiar to one another. However culturaly speaking we are very similiar, we share language, cusine, understaning of history, proverbs, stories, religious background and so on. From that point of view we are single culture nation, there are of course local variations but differences are much smaller than say between Boston Irish descendants and New Orlean people of Haitian descent or Mexican immigrants in Austin. Or between russians from Piter/Moskov/Nizny and people in Grozny. We agree. What I mean is that immigrants end up adopting the culture of their host country. It just takes a generation or two And hopefully they also bring something with them, because culture is something fluid and dynamic rather than static. And when mixed it gets enriched rather than threatened. Assimilation is important and does and has happened. But assimilation is also a process (particularly if you want it to be in 1-2 generations), one that involves what more extreme elements call "violence", a definition I'd disagree with. But it does involve pain. There are examples of large groups living in the same general geographies of a culture that dont assimilate. Gypsies and Amish come to mind as egregious examples, but other obviously exist to a lesser extent for anyone who is awake. You have to have nonviolent enforcement of social norms via exclusion or shaming. You have to (unfortunately) have violent enforcement of social norms via policing (Paddy Wagons aren't named after the famous Sheriff John Paddy who caught an infamous band of bank robbers). If you have public schools, they should be geared towards this effect. Having attended them within a generation of today, and seeing the reforms people often propose, this is not even a minor goal of public schools. At worst the schools might be actively resisting this goal. Ideally you would have a lot more open public forums where politicians are forced to hear about the issues facing the community. In one town where I grew up, this was the case. The mayor had to endure lots of that stuff. The mayors in big cities have cut themselves off from communities. Instead they treat it like a Navy port, meant more to facilitate the travel in and out than to serve the communities within.
While I agree that assimilation is sometimes difficult, I don't think it requires any violence. What is certain is that it is blocked by exclusion, and you mentioned ghettos, which are obviously a huge obstacle to any kind of assimilation.
And sometimes, people are more attached to their own culture. And that's ok. You know for centuries people have absolutely loathed the jews for exactly that reason. Take french antisemitism: they were treated like an alien culture that was a threat to "real frenchness", that refused to be like us and so on and so forth.
Well french jews are french and they are jewish. It's a hybrid culture and again, it's a huuuuge enrichment to France to have that community. The fact they don't celebrate Christmas or have their own traditions is not for the least a threat, it does not make France less french, it doesn't mean they are not loyal to the country.
People have genuinely thought it was the case, with tragic consequences. And today it seems ridiculous, yet we hold a bit the same reasoning with other minorities.
I went to the US once. Seeing amish people while crossing Indiana is one of the striking memories I have of that trip. I think it's wonderful that people with such a distinct culture within the states. How are they a threat to you, or to your nation really?
A culturally and ethnically totally homogenous country seems to me like the most boring and sad perspective. I like next to Gronland, the district of Oslo where most muslim folks live. There is a bit of another energy, another vibe, another food, and it contrasts with the slightly boring and sterile atmosphere that Norway can sometimes have. I wouldn't want to move.
My two cents
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The Amish aren't a threat because they are such a small % and don't really try much outside their community. I brought them up for a few reasons:
1) It would absolutely be oppressive for me to live in an Amish run town.
2) They have remained distinct for so long.
3) Based on birthrates they may actually become political forces in some states akin to the Mormon church in Utah within 50 years.
As someone who has lived in all sorts of communities, I think people here both overestimate assimilation, and underestimate the level of misunderstanding. At my high school this happened. In college it happened a neighborhood over. Now it happened in the city I currently live in. If you pay attention at all, these small average differences actually mandate large policy differences.
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On June 28 2020 15:03 cLutZ wrote:
The Amish aren't a threat because they are such a small % and don't really try much outside their community. I brought them up for a few reasons:
1) It would absolutely be oppressive for me to live in an Amish run town.
2) They have remained distinct for so long.
3) Based on birthrates they may actually become political forces in some states akin to the Mormon church in Utah within 50 years.
As someone who has lived in all sorts of communities, I think people here both overestimate assimilation, and underestimate the level of misunderstanding. At my high school this happened. In college it happened a neighborhood over. Now it happened in the city I currently live in. If you pay attention at all, these small average differences actually mandate large policy differences.
Well, we can discuss at length about that very particular case (the amish are a quite out of the ordinary culture - and even then you half admit aren't posing any real problem outside complete hypotheticals), that doesn't really address all the main points of my post.
If you want to talk "incomplete" cultural assimilation, I think the jews are a much better example, because they never culturally assimilated completely, they have suffered immensely from rejection and being precisely being considered like outsiders, and - I hope we can agree - are not a problem anywhere at all, having formed hybrid cultural identities. Yet every anti immigrant or xenophobic argument you will ever read has been addressed at one point or another to the Jews.
But for the vast majority of them, it doesn't even get there, because very few immigrants are remotely as attached to their traditions and cultures as the jews are to theirs. Italian immigrants, be it in France or in the US - have brought their lovely food with them but otherwise it's hard to claim they are endangering anything.
As a total side note. Food for thought: I believe cultures shine when they are the most exposed to foreign influences and are the most cosmopolitan. The great golden era of russian culture - Dostoievsky, Tchaikovsky, Kramskoi, Tolstoi, all of those - came when Russia was so turned to Europe that the aristocracy spoke exclusively french. Paris was the centre of the world in the 1920s, when it was flooded by Americans (Hemingway or Fitzgerald fought the war and stayed), Russians fleeing the revolution (Stravinsky, Prokofiev, Balanchine to name a few) and an unprecedented wave of immigration from eastern Europe.
America itself has conquered the world culturally because it is so rich from successive waves of immigrants and is such a wonderful melting pot of people, influences and ideas. What do you think America would have been without the contributions of its different populations of immigrants? How many of its artists, scientists, scholars, sport men and so on were immigrants?
I am sure all those people faced rejection and the notion that they disturbed the purity of their host nation.
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EPT
