EPTThis probably also has a relation to locally owned businesses, since e.g. a Turkish cafetaria in the Netherlands can serve as a hub for the local community. I live next to one and it's kinda annoying, but whatever. But these Turkish people living here are probably more in tune with the neighborhood than I am, since I live more or less anonymously here, always going elsewhere for any sort of activity.
US Politics Mega-thread - Page 2457
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Now that we have a new thread, in order to ensure that this thread continues to meet TL standards and follows the proper guidelines, we will be enforcing the rules in the OP more strictly. Be sure to give them a complete and thorough read before posting! NOTE: When providing a source, please provide a very brief summary on what it's about and what purpose it adds to the discussion. The supporting statement should clearly explain why the subject is relevant and needs to be discussed. Please follow this rule especially for tweets. Your supporting statement should always come BEFORE you provide the source. If you have any questions, comments, concern, or feedback regarding the USPMT, then please use this thread: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/website-feedback/510156-us-politics-thread | ||
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Grumbels
Netherlands7031 Posts
This probably also has a relation to locally owned businesses, since e.g. a Turkish cafetaria in the Netherlands can serve as a hub for the local community. I live next to one and it's kinda annoying, but whatever. But these Turkish people living here are probably more in tune with the neighborhood than I am, since I live more or less anonymously here, always going elsewhere for any sort of activity. | ||
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Silvanel
Poland4752 Posts
1. Someone comes to other country and want to fit in, not to stand out or simply likes that one better. He/She willingly adopts parts of other culture/behavior. 2. Overtime assimilation --> there is not a concious decision to adpot other culture, rather this happenes on its own over time, people adpot parts of culture, they children even more and so on. 3. Enforced assimiliation. This happens once one country takse land from other country or has significant minority for other reason. Obviously it can take various forms, but rarely is pretty. We poles have a lot of experience with this as during the partitions both germans and russians tried to eradicate polish culture. This is what russia practices in caucasus. | ||
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zobz
Canada2175 Posts
On June 28 2020 19:01 Grumbels wrote: With regards to close-knit immigrant communities, I had to read about this for sociology class and there apparently is research showing that ethnic communites closer to their own roots do better than the ones that have no connection to their own communities. If you have two axes of "assimilation to country you immigrated into" and "maintaining connection to original culture", then both of these are value added. That is to say, you're best positioned if you keep in touch with your roots while also trying to assimilate into the destination culture, and you're worse positioned if you lose touch while also not connecting with anything new. This probably also has a relation to locally owned businesses, since e.g. a Turkish cafetaria in the Netherlands can serve as a hub for the local community. I live next to one and it's kinda annoying, but whatever. But these Turkish people living here are probably more in tune with the neighborhood than I am, since I live more or less anonymously here, always going elsewhere for any sort of activity. This makes a lot of sense to me. It seems to me though that the sociological benefits of being "close to your roots" can be separated into two categories. There is the benefit that contact with your old home culture has emotionally and psychologically on the one hand. On the other hand there are more materialistic benefits, like having people who speak your native language so it is easier for your to communicate, and support groups that can help give advice and information about how to get settled, job opportunities, and even financial help. In both cases I would expect that these things would be very necessary for most people particularly in the first few years and in the first generation of immigration. It is all basically a crutch for immigrants who have not yet assimilated themselves, which takes time. I would expect that before you learn the language and the local culture, it would be much more difficult to establish a financially stable living situation for yourself. I would also expect that very often the first generation of immigrants lives in a hub of their home culture for most or all of their lives, while with each passing generation afterward it is increasingly likely that the children will move out and settle in the broader society, being more assimilated and more easily able to do so. I would also think that there are inherent advantages to any immigrant, first generation or otherwise, to assimilate and move out into the broader society. If you can't find a place to work or a place to live outside of your little Chinatown bubble or what have you, that is the same as being stuck in any small town, and these towns, being full of recent immigrants, are probably generally poorer than the rest of the country. So greater economic opportunities would incentivize immigrants to move out of these zones eventually. But sociologically and statistically, the willingness of immigrants to assimilate in order to gain those advantages would depend on how much of an entrenched collectivist identity these immigrants have, or how self-segregating they are, which prevails more in some cultures than others, as well as on how much respect they have for the outside culture. I would expect that generally if they had no respect for the outside culture at all, they would not take the great risk of immigrating to that country in the first place, but there may be exceptional cases where immigrant communities on the whole hold the culture of their new home in contempt. Lastly, they would be more willing to assimilate depending on how welcoming and accommodating the local society was to immigrants. | ||
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Wegandi
United States2455 Posts
I am perplexed how on the one hand the "left" version of the pro-immigrant view denies this perspective while at the same championing the evils of immigration from Europe to the America's. Obviously, immigration entails some degree of risk of erosion of host culture, but I think the benefits far outweigh the risks especially with free trade (plus there is the moral property rights argument, but I digress). I just find that very few people have thought through their views and their argumentation and logical chains with immigration. | ||
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ChristianS
United States3304 Posts
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Liquid`Drone
Norway28796 Posts
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NewSunshine
United States5938 Posts
This is the bar our president is held to now. It's okay that he sent out a blatant white supremacist message, because he didn't actually check what he was sending before he did so. This shit would get anyone else banned. Just another day in the good ol' USA. | ||
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iamthedave
England2814 Posts
On June 29 2020 02:19 NewSunshine wrote: Meanwhile, Trump openly retweets someone saying "White Power", and is supposed to get a pass for allegedly not actually hearing the person saying it. "Great People" once again. https://twitter.com/NPR/status/1277251665863868416 This is the bar our president is held to now. It's okay that he sent out a blatant white supremacist message, because he didn't actually check what he was sending before he did so. This shit would get anyone else banned. Just another day in the good ol' USA. He's done this tons of times. I know people - in England, mind you, never mind in the US - who with a straight face claim Trump has never said anything racist and 'you can't know that in his heart he's racist'. I respond with him failing the duck test spectacularly.. | ||
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NewSunshine
United States5938 Posts
On June 29 2020 02:24 iamthedave wrote: He's done this tons of times. I know people - in England, mind you, never mind in the US - who with a straight face claim Trump has never said anything racist and 'you can't know that in his heart he's racist'. I respond with him failing the duck test spectacularly.. I still think it's worth pointing out how outrageous it is, and should be. He should not get away with normalizing this kind of heinous garbage. | ||
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Gorsameth
Netherlands22345 Posts
On June 29 2020 02:19 NewSunshine wrote: It makes sense that in this time Trump reaches out to the one block of voters that are least likely to abandon him (because there is no one else representing them).Meanwhile, Trump openly retweets someone saying "White Power", and is supposed to get a pass for allegedly not actually hearing the person saying it. "Great People" once again. https://twitter.com/NPR/status/1277251665863868416 This is the bar our president is held to now. It's okay that he sent out a blatant white supremacist message, because he didn't actually check what he was sending before he did so. This shit would get anyone else banned. Just another day in the good ol' USA. White supremacists. That tweet was not an accident. | ||
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TheTenthDoc
United States9561 Posts
On June 28 2020 19:01 Grumbels wrote: With regards to close-knit immigrant communities, I had to read about this for sociology class and there apparently is research showing that ethnic communites closer to their own roots do better than the ones that have no connection to their own communities. If you have two axes of "assimilation to country you immigrated into" and "maintaining connection to original culture", then both of these are value added. That is to say, you're best positioned if you keep in touch with your roots while also trying to assimilate into the destination culture, and you're worse positioned if you lose touch while also not connecting with anything new. This probably also has a relation to locally owned businesses, since e.g. a Turkish cafetaria in the Netherlands can serve as a hub for the local community. I live next to one and it's kinda annoying, but whatever. But these Turkish people living here are probably more in tune with the neighborhood than I am, since I live more or less anonymously here, always going elsewhere for any sort of activity. There's also the major advantage that having a local community who shares your culture (and your language) vastly improves the quality of life for any older family members who are coming to the United States with you or may follow you later in their life. This is especially important for those from cultures that place heavy emphasis on supporting the extended family unit-moving to another country where you may barely or not at all speak the "official" language is difficult enough without having literally no one to talk to outside your immediate family. | ||
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plated.rawr
Norway1676 Posts
On June 28 2020 14:19 cLutZ wrote: Assimilation is important and does and has happened. But assimilation is also a process (particularly if you want it to be in 1-2 generations), one that involves what more extreme elements call "violence", a definition I'd disagree with. But it does involve pain. There are examples of large groups living in the same general geographies of a culture that dont assimilate. Gypsies and Amish come to mind as egregious examples, but other obviously exist to a lesser extent for anyone who is awake. Quick question to clarify here - are you mixing words here and mean 'integration' instead of 'assimilation'? | ||
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WombaT
Northern Ireland26766 Posts
On June 29 2020 02:28 NewSunshine wrote: I still think it's worth pointing out how outrageous it is, and should be. He should not get away with normalizing this kind of heinous garbage. Despite having an account for many, many years, I’m a pretty late convert to Twitter. Since being a more frequent user, there is at least a daily post from Trump that I consider utterly egregious, sometimes several. I’d only really been exposed much through reposts in here, it’s so much worse than I’d realised. | ||
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Erasme
Bahamas15899 Posts
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Simberto
Germany11828 Posts
On June 29 2020 05:24 Erasme wrote: The issue is that if we ended talking about all the stupid shit he said, that's all we would read in this thread. He's too prolific. Yeah, it is really strange. All the stupid shit Trump says SHOULD mean that he can never hold any office, and it should also mean that he needs to be removed from office as quickly as possible, and everyone should agree on that. But somehow that doesn't happen. And thus talking about his stupid shit doesn't help. The people who have a problem with it already know that Trump constantly says stupid shit, and is utterly unfit for any office. But the people who vote for him just don't care. It has been like that for years. Even further, we could also talk about all of the stupid and evil stuff that he does. We did some of that over the last three years, too. Sometimes it feels as if his stupid talk distracts from the evil actions. But once again, the people who vote for him and the republican party just don't care. And thus, we still have a person who openly says stupid stuff every day, who openly does evil and corrupt stuff regularly, as president of the US. Because he managed to cultivate a group of people who just don't care. | ||
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cLutZ
United States19574 Posts
On June 29 2020 04:34 plated.rawr wrote: Quick question to clarify here - are you mixing words here and mean 'integration' instead of 'assimilation'? Both seem similar to me. The northern carpet baggers in the 1860s and southern blacks in the 1900s moving north had similar problems as immigrants do. | ||
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Mohdoo
United States15743 Posts
On June 29 2020 05:31 cLutZ wrote: Both seem similar to me. The northern carpet baggers in the 1860s and southern blacks in the 1900s moving north had similar problems as immigrants do. Can you elaborate on this? I'm genuinely curious and you seem to know a ton of history stuff | ||
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Mohdoo
United States15743 Posts
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plated.rawr
Norway1676 Posts
On June 29 2020 05:31 cLutZ wrote: Both seem similar to me. The northern carpet baggers in the 1860s and southern blacks in the 1900s moving north had similar problems as immigrants do. They're not the same, though. Integration is about embracing local norms and traditions while still staying in touch with your root culture, while assimilation is abandoning your history and culture to replace it with the dominant. Assimilation can be done willingly surely, but it's typically associated with state force in attempt to eradicate culture, such as with Norway and the sami people, France's attempt with Algerie, and currently China and the uighur people. | ||
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Slydie
1935 Posts
On June 29 2020 06:09 Mohdoo wrote: I feel like people will be writing PhD thesis about Florida's covid situation. What a complete and total dumpster fire. Funny story: My uncle used to have a theory that Florida, despite its old population, was saved form the virus by the warm weather. I guess that one has gone out the window... Will the US have days with 3k+ deaths in a couple of weeks? | ||
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And hopefully they also bring something with them, because culture is something fluid and dynamic rather than static. And when mixed it gets enriched rather than threatened.
