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On June 29 2020 10:56 Liquid`Drone wrote:Show nested quote +On June 29 2020 08:28 Wegandi wrote:On June 29 2020 02:10 Liquid`Drone wrote:
Yeah I find the notion that the immigrants who are currently coming to america represent anything remotely comparable to the threat of culture and life of the people currently living in america as what was the case with Columbus and what followed kinda hard to fathom. Your idea of cultural displacement is either entirely too narrowly defined or you have a failure of imagination. What do you think "cultural appropriation" and hegemony does? There are people who lament globalization as eradication of local and indigenous culture around the world. My point is that there is risk with any immigration of displacing the dominant culture (it usually takes time, often hundreds of years), I just happen to think its relatively overblown and as much risk as there is to displacement from immigrants is displacement from within (I'd argue there's a far greater risk to the American identity and liberal traditional institutions/values from the native 18-35 generation than external immigration). + Show Spoiler +I mean, I don't think I share your attachment to the 'american identity'. While I am very sympathetic towards the idealized notion that america is not a nation state but one open to anyone who wants to migrate there and adopt the american identity, this very notion seems to be one that is challenged by the people who are the strongest defendants of the american identity. The various elements comprising the 'american dream' are ones I can't really say I believe are grounded in reality; social mobility is lower in the US than in many other western countries. I also think parts of the US has been somewhat exclusionary in terms of what groups are given the chance to embrace being american while also preserving their original culture. (Again, the same groups that are the strongest defendants of the idea that the american identity is something worth preserving. To be clear - I don't include you in this group. )
Anyway, that's besides the point of my post. Native Americans suffered far worse than the gradual erosion of their culture due to outside influence, come on. The parallel just isn't a good one. Also, I agree that the 'american identity' is from more pressure from the 18-35 year old current generation of americans than it is from the outside, but that doesn't seem to be a statement backing up your overall argument? As a sidenote, I'm not on the same page at all as much of the american left in terms of cultural appropriation. I consider that a good, and it's part of why I'm a huge fan of multiculturalism. I mean, I'm not a fan of the perversion of other cultures for financial gain, but the notion that white people shouldn't be allowed to create a mexican restaurant or that chinese dresses are exclusive to chinese people seems extremely flawed to me. Dressing up as a native american for halloween isn't really 'there', and anything that approaches ridicule is different, but very much of what is considered cultural appropriation to me looks like cultural appreciation, and that, imo, should be highly encouraged.
You're talking about a difference between cultural integration vs cultural appropriation/exploitation. They are distinct phenomena the first being welcomed by the non-reactionary left (left of Democrats), the second being an affront and perpetuation of the kind of horrific exploitation and abuse being glossed over in Wen's recounting.
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Norway28796 Posts
I can't really comment on the frequency, but I've certainly seen accusations of cultural appropriation thrown at behavior that I thought was entirely fine if not even positive. Probably true that I'm wrong to say 'very much' though, and that it's more a case of only being exposed to the cases where the cultural appropriation claims are more widely considered to be wrong. 
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On June 29 2020 11:11 Liquid`Drone wrote:I can't really comment on the frequency, but I've certainly seen accusations of cultural appropriation thrown at behavior that I thought was entirely fine if not even positive. Probably true that I'm wrong to say 'very much' though, and that it's more a case of only being exposed to the cases where the cultural appropriation claims are more widely considered to be wrong.
Good chances those accusations were brought to your attention specifically to generate that reaction. Imagining they weren't, it's also likely a case of just being unaware of what makes the situation so exploitative and offensive because it's not you that's the victim.
We're kind of having a collective moment about how that's long been the case in gaming communities regarding sexism and racism.
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Norway28796 Posts
Can you link or describe some specific instances of cultural appropriation you find problematic to see whether I am on the same page as you?
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On June 29 2020 11:23 Liquid`Drone wrote:
Can you link or describe some specific instances of cultural appropriation you find problematic to see whether I am on the same page as you?
Probably just easier for you to give me some examples of which kinds of cultural appropriation you think I (or whatever culture) shouldn't be offended by.
"White person opens Mexican restaurant" runs quite a spectrum. They could sponsor/facilitate a community cart/family in opening up a restaurant that is able to more effectively serve the community authentic Mexican cuisine in authentic Mexican cultural surroundings. Or they could be re-purposing an Arbys to serve "tacos" and throw a chihuahua and "El ____" on their logo.
One is cultural integration, the other is cultural exploitation.
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On June 29 2020 11:34 GreenHorizons wrote:Show nested quote +On June 29 2020 11:23 Liquid`Drone wrote:
Can you link or describe some specific instances of cultural appropriation you find problematic to see whether I am on the same page as you? Probably just easier for you to give me some examples of which kinds of cultural appropriation you think I (or whatever culture) shouldn't be offended by. "White person opens Mexican restaurant" runs quite a spectrum. They could sponsor/facilitate a community cart/family in opening up a restaurant that is able to more effectively serve the community authentic Mexican cuisine in authentic Mexican cultural surroundings. Or they could be re-purposing an Arbys to serve "tacos" and throw a chihuahua and "El ____" on their logo. One is cultural integration, the other is cultural exploitation.
What you're really arguing for is cultural segregation. You think it is an enlightened position, but really, it's quite xenophobic. White people can only wear/sell white people clothes. Can only make/sell and eat white people food. Mexican's can't make Gyro's or Egg Rolls, etc. It's a silly notion.
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On June 29 2020 12:19 Wegandi wrote:Show nested quote +On June 29 2020 11:34 GreenHorizons wrote:On June 29 2020 11:23 Liquid`Drone wrote:
Can you link or describe some specific instances of cultural appropriation you find problematic to see whether I am on the same page as you? Probably just easier for you to give me some examples of which kinds of cultural appropriation you think I (or whatever culture) shouldn't be offended by. "White person opens Mexican restaurant" runs quite a spectrum. They could sponsor/facilitate a community cart/family in opening up a restaurant that is able to more effectively serve the community authentic Mexican cuisine in authentic Mexican cultural surroundings. Or they could be re-purposing an Arbys to serve "tacos" and throw a chihuahua and "El ____" on their logo. One is cultural integration, the other is cultural exploitation. What you're really arguing for is cultural segregation. You think it is an enlightened position, but really, it's quite xenophobic. White people can only wear/sell white people clothes. Can only make/sell and eat white people food. Mexican's can't make Gyro's or Egg Rolls, etc. It's a silly notion.
What do you think "white people food" is? I'm terribly curious.
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On June 29 2020 11:34 GreenHorizons wrote:Show nested quote +On June 29 2020 11:23 Liquid`Drone wrote:
Can you link or describe some specific instances of cultural appropriation you find problematic to see whether I am on the same page as you? Probably just easier for you to give me some examples of which kinds of cultural appropriation you think I (or whatever culture) shouldn't be offended by. "White person opens Mexican restaurant" runs quite a spectrum. They could sponsor/facilitate a community cart/family in opening up a restaurant that is able to more effectively serve the community authentic Mexican cuisine in authentic Mexican cultural surroundings. Or they could be re-purposing an Arbys to serve "tacos" and throw a chihuahua and "El ____" on their logo. One is cultural integration, the other is cultural exploitation.
Mexican food is a type of food. It doesn't describe the ethnicity of the people making it. If white people wanna make Mexican food let em. All that matters is the quality and if it's good or not. If a Mexican person wants to start a burger joint all the more power.
That's strictly speaking of the food, not the obvious pandering either could do in their advertising.
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Canada11509 Posts
On June 29 2020 12:58 GreenHorizons wrote:Show nested quote +On June 29 2020 12:19 Wegandi wrote:On June 29 2020 11:34 GreenHorizons wrote:On June 29 2020 11:23 Liquid`Drone wrote:
Can you link or describe some specific instances of cultural appropriation you find problematic to see whether I am on the same page as you? Probably just easier for you to give me some examples of which kinds of cultural appropriation you think I (or whatever culture) shouldn't be offended by. "White person opens Mexican restaurant" runs quite a spectrum. They could sponsor/facilitate a community cart/family in opening up a restaurant that is able to more effectively serve the community authentic Mexican cuisine in authentic Mexican cultural surroundings. Or they could be re-purposing an Arbys to serve "tacos" and throw a chihuahua and "El ____" on their logo. One is cultural integration, the other is cultural exploitation. What you're really arguing for is cultural segregation. You think it is an enlightened position, but really, it's quite xenophobic. White people can only wear/sell white people clothes. Can only make/sell and eat white people food. Mexican's can't make Gyro's or Egg Rolls, etc. It's a silly notion. What do you think "white people food" is? I'm terribly curious.
Well, isn't that rather the point- there's no intrinsic linking of one food to a people group to the exclusion of all others. Food is meant to be shared- that's how we get to know one another- inviting people in to partake in our food: fellowship. At a certain point in time, it's not so obvious what food 'belongs' to one group or another. From my own history, I suppose 'our' food would be borscht, vareneki, and zweibach- that sort of thing, but I know that's really just borrowed from Russia, Prussia and where ever else we happened to sojourn for the time being. And the meeting of new cultures with inspire new foods, even if by 'inspiration' we mean fast food. I suppose the question is- is culture dynamic or static that it needs to be locked away in particular form so that it remains 'authentic'. I say dynamic- it's always changing.
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On June 29 2020 13:28 Zambrah wrote:
Foie gras?
If I tell my friends "I'm going to get some Mexican food, you want anything?" they know what that means. If I told them I was going to get "white people food" they'd be bewildered. I can't say if it'd be more or less than if I asked most white people I know if they want some Foie gras.
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On June 29 2020 08:28 Wegandi wrote:Show nested quote +On June 29 2020 02:10 Liquid`Drone wrote:
Yeah I find the notion that the immigrants who are currently coming to america represent anything remotely comparable to the threat of culture and life of the people currently living in america as what was the case with Columbus and what followed kinda hard to fathom. Your idea of cultural displacement is either entirely too narrowly defined or you have a failure of imagination. What do you think "cultural appropriation" and hegemony does? There are people who lament globalization as eradication of local and indigenous culture around the world. My point is that there is risk with any immigration of displacing the dominant culture (it usually takes time, often hundreds of years), I just happen to think its relatively overblown and as much risk as there is to displacement from immigrants is displacement from within (I'd argue there's a far greater risk to the American identity and liberal traditional institutions/values from the native 18-35 generation than external immigration).
I think the Native American example is a bit too much for people to stomach, and anyways its mostly unnecessary. There are plenty of other examples. California, the homestate of Reagan is now so blue many statewide races have 2 Democrats against each other. That is because of immigration from outside the US, but also very importantly internal US migration. The white population has gotten much more progressive there as well, progressives have been moving to California, while other whites have generally been moving out.
My home city of Chicago is another interesting case study for internal migration. In 1910 it was 2% black, by 1970 it was 33% black. This is not so shocking I don't think, but sometimes entire classic neighborhoods were displaced. Lawndale was initially built by Czech and German immigrants, but largely driven out by a rising Jewish population by the postwar period, which then was replaced almost entirely by latino immigrants. Englewood was, a largely German population that hosted what you would call something like, "The other Mag Mile" by the lat 70s/early 80s it was over 90% black. A common theme in these cases was that the first percentages are usually embraced by the locals, but then tipping points are reached and there is strife, and then people start selling at firesale prices.
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I think the comparison is more apt as "I want brown people food" to the "white people food" thing.
French cuisine is fairly different to British cuisine (though I hesitate to call it that... mint jelly lamb sinners.) Like I dont see Latin food places, I do see Mexican, and Peruvian places around though.
Asian food is definitely that Big Umbrella of Nonsense here in the US though, encompassing all of the Asian food and also none of it.
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Canada11509 Posts
On June 29 2020 13:57 Zambrah wrote:
I think the comparison is more apt as "I want brown people food" to the "white people food" thing.
French cuisine is fairly different to British cuisine (though I hesitate to call it that... mint jelly lamb sinners.) Like I dont see Latin food places, I do see Mexican, and Peruvian places around though.
Asian food is definitely that Big Umbrella of Nonsense here in the US though, encompassing all of the Asian food and also none of it.
Right- or Polish or Italian- is Little Caesar's with its goofy cartoon in a toga an aberration of Italian culture? Possibly. But I don't see it as appropriation, so much as the inevitable globalized super-cultures that end up being rather bland in its uniformity compared to their origin points.
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On June 29 2020 14:02 Falling wrote:Show nested quote +On June 29 2020 13:57 Zambrah wrote:
I think the comparison is more apt as "I want brown people food" to the "white people food" thing.
French cuisine is fairly different to British cuisine (though I hesitate to call it that... mint jelly lamb sinners.) Like I dont see Latin food places, I do see Mexican, and Peruvian places around though.
Asian food is definitely that Big Umbrella of Nonsense here in the US though, encompassing all of the Asian food and also none of it. Right- or Polish or Italian- is Little Caesar's with its goofy cartoon in a toga an aberration of Italian culture? Possibly. But I don't see it as appropriation, so much as the inevitable globalized super-cultures that end up being rather bland in its uniformity compared to their origin points.
Imagine I set up a stand and put up a bunch of old polish decorations and a sign that says "real polish sausages". Except the "real polish sausages" are actually brown bread and potato based vegan dogs and in my ignorance my "polish decorations" are actually representative of nazi's in Poland.
Now I'm not racist, I'm just ignorant and oblivious, but perhaps you could see how it might be offensive to a Polish person that spots the stand from afar and only discovers the nazi propaganda and food product upon preparing to order?
Imagine if I was German instead of Black and we're in Poland though.
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The discussion of American chefs and cookbook writers (discussing American here since they have the majority of the market and influence, only other place that comes close are UK celebrity chefs) taking ethnic dishes and turning out recipes far more palatable to American tastes is an interesting discussion.
The discussion of the Italian culinary arts is interesting because they responded pretty horrifically to Binging with Babish’s carbonara recipe. I also know a lot of Eastern Europeans being frustrated at the recipes they see for dishes like borscht and shuba. It’s an interesting topic, some see it as an inevitable globalisation of food while others see their national dishes being sold as something it isn’t.
I can’t remember if it was discussed here but there was an article how the vast majority of cookbook writers for non-American cuisines were intentionally American. Like a set of Ukrainian dishes like a chicken kiev or plov would have their recipes written out by someone like Chrissy Teigan and not an Eastern European chef because she would sell more books.
On June 29 2020 13:57 Zambrah wrote:
I think the comparison is more apt as "I want brown people food" to the "white people food" thing.
French cuisine is fairly different to British cuisine (though I hesitate to call it that... mint jelly lamb sinners.) Like I dont see Latin food places, I do see Mexican, and Peruvian places around though.
Asian food is definitely that Big Umbrella of Nonsense here in the US though, encompassing all of the Asian food and also none of it.
There’s an argument that the rise of UK celebrity chef has pretty much turned a lot of UK cooking to something more similar to French cooking. Chefs like Marco Pierre White, Gordon Ramsay and Raymond Blanc have had a notable influence on restaurant and food culture in the UK.
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Dont most places kind of bastardize foreign food for local tastes? God knows China does it, and god knows the US does it.
In fact, in China they have Dominos, and at first they served basically what they serve in the US, but China wasn't really into it, so now they serve stuff like corn and this weird egg mayo and steak fries pizza. Oh, and they had this pizza I loosely translated to "French style pizza" that had some sort of weird ingredient on it, sadly my translating sucks so I can't CONFIRM it had snails on it, but I do believe one of the words I read near that on the menu was maybe snail.
EDIT: And yeah, I've heard the entire Michelin star system has heavily biased fine dining towards French cuisine, so it doesn't surprise me to hear that bias exists with celebrity chefs.
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On June 29 2020 14:17 StalkerTL wrote:
The discussion of American chefs and cookbook writers (discussing American here since they have the majority of the market and influence, only other place that comes close are UK celebrity chefs) taking ethnic dishes and turning out recipes far more palatable to American tastes is an interesting discussion.
The discussion of the Italian culinary arts is interesting because they responded pretty horrifically to Binging with Babish’s carbonara recipe. I also know a lot of Eastern Europeans being frustrated at the recipes they see for dishes like borscht and shuba. It’s an interesting topic, some see it as an inevitable globalisation of food while others see their national dishes being sold as something it isn’t.
I can’t remember if it was discussed here but there was an article how the vast majority of cookbook writers for non-American cuisines were intentionally American. Like a set of Ukrainian dishes like a chicken kiev or plov would have their recipes written out by someone like Chrissy Teigan and not an Eastern European chef because she would sell more books.
to tie this into the previous point, now imagine my brown bread and potato vegan dogs are so ubiquitously marketed as "real Polish sausage" that someone spots a Kielbasa and says "WTF is that!? Can't be a Polish sausage, this is a real Polish sausage" *points to my potato dogs with nazi marketing propaganda*.
That's white people and tacos regularly.
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Canada11509 Posts
Nobody goes to a fast food restaurant with the mind that they are getting the real deal for cultural food. If they are, they're fools. And I'm not sure where the Nazis comes into it with a fast food franchise chain.
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On June 29 2020 14:30 Falling wrote:
Nobody goes to a fast food restaurant with the mind that they are getting the real deal for cultural food. If they are, they're fools. And I'm not sure where the Nazis comes into it with a fast food franchise chain.
I was trying to establish a basic baseline of understanding how well-intentioned people could do wildly offensive things through cultural appropriation of food. As well as how it can get so out of hand as to entirely supplant the culture from which it was appropriated. The "taco" being a prime example. It's been part of the "woke" movement so more people know now, but most people have no idea they don't sell tacos at taco bell (some do, but those crunchy yellow things aren't tacos).
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