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On May 31 2020 05:17 Xxio wrote:Show nested quote +On May 31 2020 01:23 Jockmcplop wrote:On May 31 2020 01:14 puppykiller wrote:On May 31 2020 00:51 Jockmcplop wrote:On May 31 2020 00:38 Xxio wrote:It's really sad to see how the looting and destruction is impacting local businesses and communities. Sometimes it's the small things, like when Dianne Binns of St. Paul was unable to pick up medication for her daughter. Her words of wisdom: “What are people going to do in those communities when they need those resources? We don’t have many stores as it is. So why are we going to burn down the small business owners who are there for us?” SourceThe sports bar of a firefighter and local coach was looted and burned down. The good news is that 611,000 was raised of a 100,000 fundraiser goal to rebuild. I wonder how much honest, hard-working people will have to pay to fix the mess left by rioting thugs. And this is in a time of business closures, when many people are struggling just to hold on to what they have. "Minnehaha Lake Wine and Spirits has been serving the neighborhood since it was legal to sell alcohol, and run by the same family since 1983. Its vintage neon sign is an icon of the area. News cameras caught the looting of the shop happening early in the evening, and expletives spray painted on the exterior... Town Talk Diner possesses another iconic sign of the area, and has been a small family-run restaurant since 2016. This morning, the words, “Kill Cops,” are visible spray-painted on the front door, under the iconic sign. The restaurant had its windows smashed, interior looted, and chairs and tables strewn about." Source. Many more cases in the article. Those innocent victims of these riots should be furious that it has come to this through years of peaceful protests being ignored. Why don't you burn your own house and store rather than elect members of your community as targets for your demonstration. Why do you get to choose who suffers. What a disgusting and self-righteous mindset. It's like you can't even hear your own words. Disgusting and self righteous! Nice If you only you were that furious about the murder that happened the other day. I mean imagine being angrier about a business having to receive insurance money than hundreds of years of of a whole population being killed by the state lol. Disgusting and self righteous indeed. The whole population has not been killed by the state. In fact, black families are overrepresented as welfare recipients by 26.3%. "FY 1999, Non-Hispanic White families made up 30.5% of the [welfare]caseload, African-American families 38.3%, and Hispanic families, 24.5%." Source. Overall, "The rate of dependency for non-Hispanic Blacks is more than six times that of non-Hispanic Whites, and that of Hispanics is more than four times as high." Source. More stats you may find useful. “Of adults arrested for murder, 53% were Black or African American", an overrepresentation of 41%. Source. From 2012-2015, black people represented 22.7% of violent crime offenders, an overrepresentation of 10.7%. White people committed 8.9% (91,470 offenders) of violent crime against black people. Black people committed 17.8% (540,360 offenders) of violent crime against white people. Source. Unfortunately the data is incomplete. "In 2015, 46% of the violent crimes and 19% of the property crimes reported to police were cleared, according to FBI data. 62% of murders and non-negligent homicides in the U.S. were cleared." Source Baltimore, Chicago and New Orleans cleared less than 28% of homicide cases in 2016. Memphis, Detroit, and Indianapolis have similar rates. Source.
Talk about some shamelessly racist shit.
You should be embarrassed by this.
The disturbing part of the violence going with this protests is how many are from out of state. Every person arrested last night was not a resident of Minnesota. As Bill Barr of the DoJ sums up, outside groups encouraged the violence.
True to being a political hack, Barr tries to tag this on "left wing extremists". Not only have the leaders in Minnesota not used this politically charged language, but there have been a lot of reports that there are white supremacist groups contributing to this, which are most likely not "left wing extremists".
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On May 31 2020 05:17 Xxio wrote:Show nested quote +On May 31 2020 01:23 Jockmcplop wrote:On May 31 2020 01:14 puppykiller wrote:On May 31 2020 00:51 Jockmcplop wrote:On May 31 2020 00:38 Xxio wrote:It's really sad to see how the looting and destruction is impacting local businesses and communities. Sometimes it's the small things, like when Dianne Binns of St. Paul was unable to pick up medication for her daughter. Her words of wisdom: “What are people going to do in those communities when they need those resources? We don’t have many stores as it is. So why are we going to burn down the small business owners who are there for us?” SourceThe sports bar of a firefighter and local coach was looted and burned down. The good news is that 611,000 was raised of a 100,000 fundraiser goal to rebuild. I wonder how much honest, hard-working people will have to pay to fix the mess left by rioting thugs. And this is in a time of business closures, when many people are struggling just to hold on to what they have. "Minnehaha Lake Wine and Spirits has been serving the neighborhood since it was legal to sell alcohol, and run by the same family since 1983. Its vintage neon sign is an icon of the area. News cameras caught the looting of the shop happening early in the evening, and expletives spray painted on the exterior... Town Talk Diner possesses another iconic sign of the area, and has been a small family-run restaurant since 2016. This morning, the words, “Kill Cops,” are visible spray-painted on the front door, under the iconic sign. The restaurant had its windows smashed, interior looted, and chairs and tables strewn about." Source. Many more cases in the article. Those innocent victims of these riots should be furious that it has come to this through years of peaceful protests being ignored. Why don't you burn your own house and store rather than elect members of your community as targets for your demonstration. Why do you get to choose who suffers. What a disgusting and self-righteous mindset. It's like you can't even hear your own words. Disgusting and self righteous! Nice If you only you were that furious about the murder that happened the other day. I mean imagine being angrier about a business having to receive insurance money than hundreds of years of of a whole population being killed by the state lol. Disgusting and self righteous indeed. The whole population has not been killed by the state. In fact, black families are overrepresented as welfare recipients by 26.3%. "FY 1999, Non-Hispanic White families made up 30.5% of the [welfare]caseload, African-American families 38.3%, and Hispanic families, 24.5%." Source. Overall, "The rate of dependency for non-Hispanic Blacks is more than six times that of non-Hispanic Whites, and that of Hispanics is more than four times as high." Source. More stats you may find useful. “Of adults arrested for murder, 53% were Black or African American", an overrepresentation of 41%. Source. From 2012-2015, black people represented 22.7% of violent crime offenders, an overrepresentation of 10.7%. White people committed 8.9% (91,470 offenders) of violent crime against black people. Black people committed 17.8% (540,360 offenders) of violent crime against white people. Source. Unfortunately the data is incomplete. "In 2015, 46% of the violent crimes and 19% of the property crimes reported to police were cleared, according to FBI data. 62% of murders and non-negligent homicides in the U.S. were cleared." Source Baltimore, Chicago and New Orleans cleared less than 28% of homicide cases in 2016. Memphis, Detroit, and Indianapolis have similar rates. Source.
This is literally what racist argue on Facebook... have you ever thought that it’s possible crime in general is up in poverty stricken areas??
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On May 31 2020 05:29 Dan HH wrote:Show nested quote +On May 31 2020 05:17 Xxio wrote:On May 31 2020 01:23 Jockmcplop wrote:On May 31 2020 01:14 puppykiller wrote:On May 31 2020 00:51 Jockmcplop wrote:On May 31 2020 00:38 Xxio wrote:It's really sad to see how the looting and destruction is impacting local businesses and communities. Sometimes it's the small things, like when Dianne Binns of St. Paul was unable to pick up medication for her daughter. Her words of wisdom: “What are people going to do in those communities when they need those resources? We don’t have many stores as it is. So why are we going to burn down the small business owners who are there for us?” SourceThe sports bar of a firefighter and local coach was looted and burned down. The good news is that 611,000 was raised of a 100,000 fundraiser goal to rebuild. I wonder how much honest, hard-working people will have to pay to fix the mess left by rioting thugs. And this is in a time of business closures, when many people are struggling just to hold on to what they have. "Minnehaha Lake Wine and Spirits has been serving the neighborhood since it was legal to sell alcohol, and run by the same family since 1983. Its vintage neon sign is an icon of the area. News cameras caught the looting of the shop happening early in the evening, and expletives spray painted on the exterior... Town Talk Diner possesses another iconic sign of the area, and has been a small family-run restaurant since 2016. This morning, the words, “Kill Cops,” are visible spray-painted on the front door, under the iconic sign. The restaurant had its windows smashed, interior looted, and chairs and tables strewn about." Source. Many more cases in the article. Those innocent victims of these riots should be furious that it has come to this through years of peaceful protests being ignored. Why don't you burn your own house and store rather than elect members of your community as targets for your demonstration. Why do you get to choose who suffers. What a disgusting and self-righteous mindset. It's like you can't even hear your own words. Disgusting and self righteous! Nice If you only you were that furious about the murder that happened the other day. I mean imagine being angrier about a business having to receive insurance money than hundreds of years of of a whole population being killed by the state lol. Disgusting and self righteous indeed. The whole population has not been killed by the state. In fact, black families are overrepresented as welfare recipients by 26.3%. "FY 1999, Non-Hispanic White families made up 30.5% of the [welfare]caseload, African-American families 38.3%, and Hispanic families, 24.5%." Source. Overall, "The rate of dependency for non-Hispanic Blacks is more than six times that of non-Hispanic Whites, and that of Hispanics is more than four times as high." Source. More stats you may find useful. “Of adults arrested for murder, 53% were Black or African American", an overrepresentation of 41%. Source. From 2012-2015, black people represented 22.7% of violent crime offenders, an overrepresentation of 10.7%. White people committed 8.9% (91,470 offenders) of violent crime against black people. Black people committed 17.8% (540,360 offenders) of violent crime against white people. Source. Unfortunately the data is incomplete. "In 2015, 46% of the violent crimes and 19% of the property crimes reported to police were cleared, according to FBI data. 62% of murders and non-negligent homicides in the U.S. were cleared." Source Baltimore, Chicago and New Orleans cleared less than 28% of homicide cases in 2016. Memphis, Detroit, and Indianapolis have similar rates. Source. You can't just write "in fact, [..]" and throw in a non-sequitur stat salad that makes me reread the post you quoted just to make sure I don't have an aneurysm.
Looks like he just scrolled through the thread to find any post to attach his copy/paste to in a desperate effort to make it seem relevant to the conversation. The real question is why did he have this copy/paste loaded up and ready to fire in the first place.
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On May 31 2020 06:04 BlackJack wrote:Show nested quote +On May 31 2020 05:29 Dan HH wrote:On May 31 2020 05:17 Xxio wrote:On May 31 2020 01:23 Jockmcplop wrote:On May 31 2020 01:14 puppykiller wrote:On May 31 2020 00:51 Jockmcplop wrote:On May 31 2020 00:38 Xxio wrote:It's really sad to see how the looting and destruction is impacting local businesses and communities. Sometimes it's the small things, like when Dianne Binns of St. Paul was unable to pick up medication for her daughter. Her words of wisdom: “What are people going to do in those communities when they need those resources? We don’t have many stores as it is. So why are we going to burn down the small business owners who are there for us?” SourceThe sports bar of a firefighter and local coach was looted and burned down. The good news is that 611,000 was raised of a 100,000 fundraiser goal to rebuild. I wonder how much honest, hard-working people will have to pay to fix the mess left by rioting thugs. And this is in a time of business closures, when many people are struggling just to hold on to what they have. "Minnehaha Lake Wine and Spirits has been serving the neighborhood since it was legal to sell alcohol, and run by the same family since 1983. Its vintage neon sign is an icon of the area. News cameras caught the looting of the shop happening early in the evening, and expletives spray painted on the exterior... Town Talk Diner possesses another iconic sign of the area, and has been a small family-run restaurant since 2016. This morning, the words, “Kill Cops,” are visible spray-painted on the front door, under the iconic sign. The restaurant had its windows smashed, interior looted, and chairs and tables strewn about." Source. Many more cases in the article. Those innocent victims of these riots should be furious that it has come to this through years of peaceful protests being ignored. Why don't you burn your own house and store rather than elect members of your community as targets for your demonstration. Why do you get to choose who suffers. What a disgusting and self-righteous mindset. It's like you can't even hear your own words. Disgusting and self righteous! Nice If you only you were that furious about the murder that happened the other day. I mean imagine being angrier about a business having to receive insurance money than hundreds of years of of a whole population being killed by the state lol. Disgusting and self righteous indeed. The whole population has not been killed by the state. In fact, black families are overrepresented as welfare recipients by 26.3%. "FY 1999, Non-Hispanic White families made up 30.5% of the [welfare]caseload, African-American families 38.3%, and Hispanic families, 24.5%." Source. Overall, "The rate of dependency for non-Hispanic Blacks is more than six times that of non-Hispanic Whites, and that of Hispanics is more than four times as high." Source. More stats you may find useful. “Of adults arrested for murder, 53% were Black or African American", an overrepresentation of 41%. Source. From 2012-2015, black people represented 22.7% of violent crime offenders, an overrepresentation of 10.7%. White people committed 8.9% (91,470 offenders) of violent crime against black people. Black people committed 17.8% (540,360 offenders) of violent crime against white people. Source. Unfortunately the data is incomplete. "In 2015, 46% of the violent crimes and 19% of the property crimes reported to police were cleared, according to FBI data. 62% of murders and non-negligent homicides in the U.S. were cleared." Source Baltimore, Chicago and New Orleans cleared less than 28% of homicide cases in 2016. Memphis, Detroit, and Indianapolis have similar rates. Source. You can't just write "in fact, [..]" and throw in a non-sequitur stat salad that makes me reread the post you quoted just to make sure I don't have an aneurysm. Looks like he just scrolled through the thread to find any post to attach his copy/paste to in a desperate effort to make it seem relevant to the conversation. The real question is why did he have this copy/paste loaded up and ready to fire in the first place.
He feared he wasn't being taken seriously and saw somebody was making a point.
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On May 31 2020 05:11 gotchaman wrote:Show nested quote +On May 31 2020 04:14 FueledUpAndReadyToGo wrote:
At this point, what type of change would satisfy people on the street? Reopening of old cases where officers walked free after murder? New agency that polices the police, with prosecutors that don't have a working relationship with them? New police weapon use program where the danger risk moves from civilians to cops, ie they can't draw weapons until they are actually in danger?
I can't speak for all the people on the street but personally I think, just as doctors have tried to adopt best practices from pilots and assembly line workers to reduce error, police should look to doctors to improve accountability. The pay of doctors and police overlap and they work together in forensics, mental health, and emergency services. Doctors have better public relations in that they cause far fewer riots while causing much more death through malpractice. I would like to see a system of licensing system for police similar to that of doctors, the most important components of which are an assessment of competency, a review of complaints, and a personal mandate for liability insurance. Here again are possible components of medical licensing and renewal: 1) Completion of a recognized training program 2) Passing competency examinations 3) Passing a criminal background check 4) Passing a civil litigation background check 5) Passing a background check of past license revocation in response to complaints 6) Providing a verifiable professional work history including explanations of periods of unemployment 7) Continuing education, possibly including repeating competency examinations (The police continuing education equivalent might include advances in de-escalation techniques, proficiency in new weapons, changes in laws, First Aid, etc.) 8) Obtaining malpractice insurance I can already foresee that the problem with the Derek Chavuin case is going to be the forensic autopsy. Forensic autopsies are often rife with equivocations big enough for a skilled defense attorney to shape into reasonable doubt. But imagine that Derek Chauvin had to maintain a Basic First Aid certificate to obtain a law enforcement license. He could be nailed for criminal negligence by the testimony of an expert First Aid instructor. Although I have listed malpractice insurance last, it is perhaps the most important. Police work closely with prosecutors, making it difficult to get an unbiased prosecution. Insurers are not so burdened and have their bottom line to consider, which should help to price bad cops out of business through increasing insurance premiums. I am heartened to find some protestors (people on the street) calling for personally mandated liability insurance for police. For example: https://www.masslive.com/springfield/2020/05/george-floyds-death-in-minneapolis-prompts-hundreds-to-protest-police-brutality-outside-springfield-police-headquarters.html“If all police had to carry insurance, the worst offenders would quickly be identified, and they would be charged a higher rate,” said Holly Richardson, community organizer of Out Now. “If they continued down this path, eventually they would be priced out, or become un-insurable and thus unemployable.”
This is seriously a good point. I'd add that if the officer in question is found guilty or isn't certified, then his partner should be held in some degree just as liable. Tying people's livelihoods together by adhering to the law and qualifications would do a lot to deter the violence perpetrated against minorities and be a strong step in the right direction.
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On May 31 2020 05:17 Xxio wrote:Show nested quote +On May 31 2020 01:23 Jockmcplop wrote:On May 31 2020 01:14 puppykiller wrote:On May 31 2020 00:51 Jockmcplop wrote:On May 31 2020 00:38 Xxio wrote:It's really sad to see how the looting and destruction is impacting local businesses and communities. Sometimes it's the small things, like when Dianne Binns of St. Paul was unable to pick up medication for her daughter. Her words of wisdom: “What are people going to do in those communities when they need those resources? We don’t have many stores as it is. So why are we going to burn down the small business owners who are there for us?” SourceThe sports bar of a firefighter and local coach was looted and burned down. The good news is that 611,000 was raised of a 100,000 fundraiser goal to rebuild. I wonder how much honest, hard-working people will have to pay to fix the mess left by rioting thugs. And this is in a time of business closures, when many people are struggling just to hold on to what they have. "Minnehaha Lake Wine and Spirits has been serving the neighborhood since it was legal to sell alcohol, and run by the same family since 1983. Its vintage neon sign is an icon of the area. News cameras caught the looting of the shop happening early in the evening, and expletives spray painted on the exterior... Town Talk Diner possesses another iconic sign of the area, and has been a small family-run restaurant since 2016. This morning, the words, “Kill Cops,” are visible spray-painted on the front door, under the iconic sign. The restaurant had its windows smashed, interior looted, and chairs and tables strewn about." Source. Many more cases in the article. Those innocent victims of these riots should be furious that it has come to this through years of peaceful protests being ignored. Why don't you burn your own house and store rather than elect members of your community as targets for your demonstration. Why do you get to choose who suffers. What a disgusting and self-righteous mindset. It's like you can't even hear your own words. Disgusting and self righteous! Nice If you only you were that furious about the murder that happened the other day. I mean imagine being angrier about a business having to receive insurance money than hundreds of years of of a whole population being killed by the state lol. Disgusting and self righteous indeed. The whole population has not been killed by the state. In fact, black families are overrepresented as welfare recipients by 26.3%. "FY 1999, Non-Hispanic White families made up 30.5% of the [welfare]caseload, African-American families 38.3%, and Hispanic families, 24.5%." Source. Overall, "The rate of dependency for non-Hispanic Blacks is more than six times that of non-Hispanic Whites, and that of Hispanics is more than four times as high." Source. More stats you may find useful. “Of adults arrested for murder, 53% were Black or African American", an overrepresentation of 41%. Source. From 2012-2015, black people represented 22.7% of violent crime offenders, an overrepresentation of 10.7%. White people committed 8.9% (91,470 offenders) of violent crime against black people. Black people committed 17.8% (540,360 offenders) of violent crime against white people. Source. Unfortunately the data is incomplete. "In 2015, 46% of the violent crimes and 19% of the property crimes reported to police were cleared, according to FBI data. 62% of murders and non-negligent homicides in the U.S. were cleared." Source Baltimore, Chicago and New Orleans cleared less than 28% of homicide cases in 2016. Memphis, Detroit, and Indianapolis have similar rates. Source.
Poverty is the biggest indicator of crime. This is true across counties not just the US. Unlike black crime which doesn't follow a predictable correlation across countries.
What is part of the US is years upon years of policy to prevent black wealth from accumulating. Economic mobility is peathic in the US and the best way to transition out of a economic group is to know people from a better off group and use those relationships. That coupled with the jailing of black men as absurd rates and you've pretty much sealed the deal that most black people are born poor and will stay poor. High poverty = high crime.
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On May 31 2020 06:14 ZerOCoolSC2 wrote:Show nested quote +On May 31 2020 05:11 gotchaman wrote:On May 31 2020 04:14 FueledUpAndReadyToGo wrote:
At this point, what type of change would satisfy people on the street? Reopening of old cases where officers walked free after murder? New agency that polices the police, with prosecutors that don't have a working relationship with them? New police weapon use program where the danger risk moves from civilians to cops, ie they can't draw weapons until they are actually in danger?
I can't speak for all the people on the street but personally I think, just as doctors have tried to adopt best practices from pilots and assembly line workers to reduce error, police should look to doctors to improve accountability. The pay of doctors and police overlap and they work together in forensics, mental health, and emergency services. Doctors have better public relations in that they cause far fewer riots while causing much more death through malpractice. I would like to see a system of licensing system for police similar to that of doctors, the most important components of which are an assessment of competency, a review of complaints, and a personal mandate for liability insurance. Here again are possible components of medical licensing and renewal: 1) Completion of a recognized training program 2) Passing competency examinations 3) Passing a criminal background check 4) Passing a civil litigation background check 5) Passing a background check of past license revocation in response to complaints 6) Providing a verifiable professional work history including explanations of periods of unemployment 7) Continuing education, possibly including repeating competency examinations (The police continuing education equivalent might include advances in de-escalation techniques, proficiency in new weapons, changes in laws, First Aid, etc.) 8) Obtaining malpractice insurance I can already foresee that the problem with the Derek Chavuin case is going to be the forensic autopsy. Forensic autopsies are often rife with equivocations big enough for a skilled defense attorney to shape into reasonable doubt. But imagine that Derek Chauvin had to maintain a Basic First Aid certificate to obtain a law enforcement license. He could be nailed for criminal negligence by the testimony of an expert First Aid instructor. Although I have listed malpractice insurance last, it is perhaps the most important. Police work closely with prosecutors, making it difficult to get an unbiased prosecution. Insurers are not so burdened and have their bottom line to consider, which should help to price bad cops out of business through increasing insurance premiums. I am heartened to find some protestors (people on the street) calling for personally mandated liability insurance for police. For example: https://www.masslive.com/springfield/2020/05/george-floyds-death-in-minneapolis-prompts-hundreds-to-protest-police-brutality-outside-springfield-police-headquarters.html“If all police had to carry insurance, the worst offenders would quickly be identified, and they would be charged a higher rate,” said Holly Richardson, community organizer of Out Now. “If they continued down this path, eventually they would be priced out, or become un-insurable and thus unemployable.” This is seriously a good point. I'd add that if the officer in question is found guilty or isn't certified, then his partner should be held in some degree just as liable. Tying people's livelihoods together by adhering to the law and qualifications would do a lot to deter the violence perpetrated against minorities and be a strong step in the right direction.
The thing is that the US should finally START reforming the Police instead of delaying and delaying for a perfect system.
People will try to game the system for their own benefits or griefing others. We can just improve the accountability system step by step until we get it done perfectly.
There is no way to avoid starting this process ASAP.
Instead of incrementally stopping the police shooting black people and discriminating against POCs in general, we can incrementally lessen the strictness of cross-accountability of police officers.
The good guys won't be impeded by that in their practice and won't be deterred from picking up the profession either, because they have nothing to fear from their actions that needs protection.
Everyone wins, right?
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On May 31 2020 06:19 Artisreal wrote:Show nested quote +On May 31 2020 06:14 ZerOCoolSC2 wrote:On May 31 2020 05:11 gotchaman wrote:On May 31 2020 04:14 FueledUpAndReadyToGo wrote:
At this point, what type of change would satisfy people on the street? Reopening of old cases where officers walked free after murder? New agency that polices the police, with prosecutors that don't have a working relationship with them? New police weapon use program where the danger risk moves from civilians to cops, ie they can't draw weapons until they are actually in danger?
I can't speak for all the people on the street but personally I think, just as doctors have tried to adopt best practices from pilots and assembly line workers to reduce error, police should look to doctors to improve accountability. The pay of doctors and police overlap and they work together in forensics, mental health, and emergency services. Doctors have better public relations in that they cause far fewer riots while causing much more death through malpractice. I would like to see a system of licensing system for police similar to that of doctors, the most important components of which are an assessment of competency, a review of complaints, and a personal mandate for liability insurance. Here again are possible components of medical licensing and renewal: 1) Completion of a recognized training program 2) Passing competency examinations 3) Passing a criminal background check 4) Passing a civil litigation background check 5) Passing a background check of past license revocation in response to complaints 6) Providing a verifiable professional work history including explanations of periods of unemployment 7) Continuing education, possibly including repeating competency examinations (The police continuing education equivalent might include advances in de-escalation techniques, proficiency in new weapons, changes in laws, First Aid, etc.) 8) Obtaining malpractice insurance I can already foresee that the problem with the Derek Chavuin case is going to be the forensic autopsy. Forensic autopsies are often rife with equivocations big enough for a skilled defense attorney to shape into reasonable doubt. But imagine that Derek Chauvin had to maintain a Basic First Aid certificate to obtain a law enforcement license. He could be nailed for criminal negligence by the testimony of an expert First Aid instructor. Although I have listed malpractice insurance last, it is perhaps the most important. Police work closely with prosecutors, making it difficult to get an unbiased prosecution. Insurers are not so burdened and have their bottom line to consider, which should help to price bad cops out of business through increasing insurance premiums. I am heartened to find some protestors (people on the street) calling for personally mandated liability insurance for police. For example: https://www.masslive.com/springfield/2020/05/george-floyds-death-in-minneapolis-prompts-hundreds-to-protest-police-brutality-outside-springfield-police-headquarters.html“If all police had to carry insurance, the worst offenders would quickly be identified, and they would be charged a higher rate,” said Holly Richardson, community organizer of Out Now. “If they continued down this path, eventually they would be priced out, or become un-insurable and thus unemployable.” This is seriously a good point. I'd add that if the officer in question is found guilty or isn't certified, then his partner should be held in some degree just as liable. Tying people's livelihoods together by adhering to the law and qualifications would do a lot to deter the violence perpetrated against minorities and be a strong step in the right direction. The thing is that the US should finally START reforming the Police instead of delaying and delaying for a perfect system. People will try to game the system for their own benefits or griefing others. We can just improve the accountability system step by step until we get it done perfectly. There is no way to avoid starting this process ASAP. Instead of incrementally stopping the police shooting black people and discriminating against POCs in general, we can incrementally lessen the strictness of cross-accountability of police officers. The good guys won't be impeded by that in their practice and won't be deterred from picking up the profession either, because they have nothing to fear from their actions that needs protection. Everyone wins, right?
I agree with the first section but I'm kind of lost on the second. If I'm understanding correctly, you're saying that as the cops demonstrate proficiency at following rules and regulations and they don't have any complaints or demerits, they are freed from some of the most burdensome requirements?
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On May 31 2020 05:32 Gorsameth wrote:Show nested quote +On May 31 2020 04:57 Danglars wrote:The disturbing part of the violence going with this protests is how many are from out of state. Every person arrested last night was not a resident of Minnesota. As Bill Barr of the DoJ sums up, outside groups encouraged the violence. (Excerpted from a briefing) I bailed out of downtown LA before the riots there started. It’s so heartbreaking seeing low and mid income communities hurt by coronavirus are seeing their local businesses destroyed. Just no words for agitators that see a racial crime as an opportunity to support violent riots for their agenda. Not really surprising, anywhere a riot happens people flock in who just want an excuse to loot and fight the police.
This is the spark that will light the fire to end capitalism or something. Just sad when you think of protestors with real grievances that would march but not torch a police substation.
On May 31 2020 05:33 Stratos_speAr wrote:Show nested quote +The disturbing part of the violence going with this protests is how many are from out of state. Every person arrested last night was not a resident of Minnesota. As Bill Barr of the DoJ sums up, outside groups encouraged the violence. True to being a political hack, Barr tries to tag this on "left wing extremists". Not only have the leaders in Minnesota not used this politically charged language, but there have been a lot of reports that there are white supremacist groups contributing to this, which are most likely not "left wing extremists".
I'm wondering what the excuses will be when this is basically Antifa, black block, and related groups. These people were arrested, and chances are they'll have rap sheets for other famous protests. Stop playing dumb about what Antifa is famous for doing. Oh yeah, and do post some evidence to counter a briefing by the head of the Justice Department labeling these groups, to not just be another "I heard a guy say..." It's not like violent left-wing extremist groups reward their defenders.
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On May 31 2020 06:27 ZerOCoolSC2 wrote:Show nested quote +On May 31 2020 06:19 Artisreal wrote:On May 31 2020 06:14 ZerOCoolSC2 wrote:On May 31 2020 05:11 gotchaman wrote:On May 31 2020 04:14 FueledUpAndReadyToGo wrote:
At this point, what type of change would satisfy people on the street? Reopening of old cases where officers walked free after murder? New agency that polices the police, with prosecutors that don't have a working relationship with them? New police weapon use program where the danger risk moves from civilians to cops, ie they can't draw weapons until they are actually in danger?
I can't speak for all the people on the street but personally I think, just as doctors have tried to adopt best practices from pilots and assembly line workers to reduce error, police should look to doctors to improve accountability. The pay of doctors and police overlap and they work together in forensics, mental health, and emergency services. Doctors have better public relations in that they cause far fewer riots while causing much more death through malpractice. I would like to see a system of licensing system for police similar to that of doctors, the most important components of which are an assessment of competency, a review of complaints, and a personal mandate for liability insurance. Here again are possible components of medical licensing and renewal: 1) Completion of a recognized training program 2) Passing competency examinations 3) Passing a criminal background check 4) Passing a civil litigation background check 5) Passing a background check of past license revocation in response to complaints 6) Providing a verifiable professional work history including explanations of periods of unemployment 7) Continuing education, possibly including repeating competency examinations (The police continuing education equivalent might include advances in de-escalation techniques, proficiency in new weapons, changes in laws, First Aid, etc.) 8) Obtaining malpractice insurance I can already foresee that the problem with the Derek Chavuin case is going to be the forensic autopsy. Forensic autopsies are often rife with equivocations big enough for a skilled defense attorney to shape into reasonable doubt. But imagine that Derek Chauvin had to maintain a Basic First Aid certificate to obtain a law enforcement license. He could be nailed for criminal negligence by the testimony of an expert First Aid instructor. Although I have listed malpractice insurance last, it is perhaps the most important. Police work closely with prosecutors, making it difficult to get an unbiased prosecution. Insurers are not so burdened and have their bottom line to consider, which should help to price bad cops out of business through increasing insurance premiums. I am heartened to find some protestors (people on the street) calling for personally mandated liability insurance for police. For example: https://www.masslive.com/springfield/2020/05/george-floyds-death-in-minneapolis-prompts-hundreds-to-protest-police-brutality-outside-springfield-police-headquarters.html“If all police had to carry insurance, the worst offenders would quickly be identified, and they would be charged a higher rate,” said Holly Richardson, community organizer of Out Now. “If they continued down this path, eventually they would be priced out, or become un-insurable and thus unemployable.” This is seriously a good point. I'd add that if the officer in question is found guilty or isn't certified, then his partner should be held in some degree just as liable. Tying people's livelihoods together by adhering to the law and qualifications would do a lot to deter the violence perpetrated against minorities and be a strong step in the right direction. The thing is that the US should finally START reforming the Police instead of delaying and delaying for a perfect system. People will try to game the system for their own benefits or griefing others. We can just improve the accountability system step by step until we get it done perfectly. There is no way to avoid starting this process ASAP. Instead of incrementally stopping the police shooting black people and discriminating against POCs in general, we can incrementally lessen the strictness of cross-accountability of police officers. The good guys won't be impeded by that in their practice and won't be deterred from picking up the profession either, because they have nothing to fear from their actions that needs protection. Everyone wins, right? I agree with the first section but I'm kind of lost on the second. If I'm understanding correctly, you're saying that as the cops demonstrate proficiency at following rules and regulations and they don't have any complaints or demerits, they are freed from some of the most burdensome requirements?
No, I was toying with the "incremental change should be enough" argument and tried to apply it to the accountability logic. Setting up an overly strict system of police surveillance and accountability to get rid of the abuse of power as a main objective. Goals justifying the means style. And only over time evaluating which of the measures in place are useful and lessening / strenghtening those that need adjustment.
But always with the goal in mind, to have a community serving police through radical change.
I could have done much better articulating my thoughts. Sorry.
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On May 31 2020 06:35 Artisreal wrote:Show nested quote +On May 31 2020 06:27 ZerOCoolSC2 wrote:On May 31 2020 06:19 Artisreal wrote:On May 31 2020 06:14 ZerOCoolSC2 wrote:On May 31 2020 05:11 gotchaman wrote:On May 31 2020 04:14 FueledUpAndReadyToGo wrote:
At this point, what type of change would satisfy people on the street? Reopening of old cases where officers walked free after murder? New agency that polices the police, with prosecutors that don't have a working relationship with them? New police weapon use program where the danger risk moves from civilians to cops, ie they can't draw weapons until they are actually in danger?
I can't speak for all the people on the street but personally I think, just as doctors have tried to adopt best practices from pilots and assembly line workers to reduce error, police should look to doctors to improve accountability. The pay of doctors and police overlap and they work together in forensics, mental health, and emergency services. Doctors have better public relations in that they cause far fewer riots while causing much more death through malpractice. I would like to see a system of licensing system for police similar to that of doctors, the most important components of which are an assessment of competency, a review of complaints, and a personal mandate for liability insurance. Here again are possible components of medical licensing and renewal: 1) Completion of a recognized training program 2) Passing competency examinations 3) Passing a criminal background check 4) Passing a civil litigation background check 5) Passing a background check of past license revocation in response to complaints 6) Providing a verifiable professional work history including explanations of periods of unemployment 7) Continuing education, possibly including repeating competency examinations (The police continuing education equivalent might include advances in de-escalation techniques, proficiency in new weapons, changes in laws, First Aid, etc.) 8) Obtaining malpractice insurance I can already foresee that the problem with the Derek Chavuin case is going to be the forensic autopsy. Forensic autopsies are often rife with equivocations big enough for a skilled defense attorney to shape into reasonable doubt. But imagine that Derek Chauvin had to maintain a Basic First Aid certificate to obtain a law enforcement license. He could be nailed for criminal negligence by the testimony of an expert First Aid instructor. Although I have listed malpractice insurance last, it is perhaps the most important. Police work closely with prosecutors, making it difficult to get an unbiased prosecution. Insurers are not so burdened and have their bottom line to consider, which should help to price bad cops out of business through increasing insurance premiums. I am heartened to find some protestors (people on the street) calling for personally mandated liability insurance for police. For example: https://www.masslive.com/springfield/2020/05/george-floyds-death-in-minneapolis-prompts-hundreds-to-protest-police-brutality-outside-springfield-police-headquarters.html“If all police had to carry insurance, the worst offenders would quickly be identified, and they would be charged a higher rate,” said Holly Richardson, community organizer of Out Now. “If they continued down this path, eventually they would be priced out, or become un-insurable and thus unemployable.” This is seriously a good point. I'd add that if the officer in question is found guilty or isn't certified, then his partner should be held in some degree just as liable. Tying people's livelihoods together by adhering to the law and qualifications would do a lot to deter the violence perpetrated against minorities and be a strong step in the right direction. The thing is that the US should finally START reforming the Police instead of delaying and delaying for a perfect system. People will try to game the system for their own benefits or griefing others. We can just improve the accountability system step by step until we get it done perfectly. There is no way to avoid starting this process ASAP. Instead of incrementally stopping the police shooting black people and discriminating against POCs in general, we can incrementally lessen the strictness of cross-accountability of police officers. The good guys won't be impeded by that in their practice and won't be deterred from picking up the profession either, because they have nothing to fear from their actions that needs protection. Everyone wins, right? I agree with the first section but I'm kind of lost on the second. If I'm understanding correctly, you're saying that as the cops demonstrate proficiency at following rules and regulations and they don't have any complaints or demerits, they are freed from some of the most burdensome requirements? No, I was toying with the "incremental change should be enough" argument and tried to apply it to the accountability logic. Setting up an overly strict system of police surveillance and accountability to get rid of the abuse of power as a main objective. Goals justifying the means style. And only over time evaluating which of the measures in place are useful and lessening / strenghtening those that need adjustment. But always with the goal in mind, to have a community serving police through radical change. I could have done much better articulating my thoughts. Sorry.
Oh, okay. That makes sense. Thanks for clarifying. I think it may have been wording or word order that threw me for a ride.
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On May 31 2020 06:14 ZerOCoolSC2 wrote:Show nested quote +On May 31 2020 05:11 gotchaman wrote:On May 31 2020 04:14 FueledUpAndReadyToGo wrote:
At this point, what type of change would satisfy people on the street? Reopening of old cases where officers walked free after murder? New agency that polices the police, with prosecutors that don't have a working relationship with them? New police weapon use program where the danger risk moves from civilians to cops, ie they can't draw weapons until they are actually in danger?
I can't speak for all the people on the street but personally I think, just as doctors have tried to adopt best practices from pilots and assembly line workers to reduce error, police should look to doctors to improve accountability. The pay of doctors and police overlap and they work together in forensics, mental health, and emergency services. Doctors have better public relations in that they cause far fewer riots while causing much more death through malpractice. I would like to see a system of licensing system for police similar to that of doctors, the most important components of which are an assessment of competency, a review of complaints, and a personal mandate for liability insurance. Here again are possible components of medical licensing and renewal: 1) Completion of a recognized training program 2) Passing competency examinations 3) Passing a criminal background check 4) Passing a civil litigation background check 5) Passing a background check of past license revocation in response to complaints 6) Providing a verifiable professional work history including explanations of periods of unemployment 7) Continuing education, possibly including repeating competency examinations (The police continuing education equivalent might include advances in de-escalation techniques, proficiency in new weapons, changes in laws, First Aid, etc.) 8) Obtaining malpractice insurance I can already foresee that the problem with the Derek Chavuin case is going to be the forensic autopsy. Forensic autopsies are often rife with equivocations big enough for a skilled defense attorney to shape into reasonable doubt. But imagine that Derek Chauvin had to maintain a Basic First Aid certificate to obtain a law enforcement license. He could be nailed for criminal negligence by the testimony of an expert First Aid instructor. Although I have listed malpractice insurance last, it is perhaps the most important. Police work closely with prosecutors, making it difficult to get an unbiased prosecution. Insurers are not so burdened and have their bottom line to consider, which should help to price bad cops out of business through increasing insurance premiums. I am heartened to find some protestors (people on the street) calling for personally mandated liability insurance for police. For example: https://www.masslive.com/springfield/2020/05/george-floyds-death-in-minneapolis-prompts-hundreds-to-protest-police-brutality-outside-springfield-police-headquarters.html“If all police had to carry insurance, the worst offenders would quickly be identified, and they would be charged a higher rate,” said Holly Richardson, community organizer of Out Now. “If they continued down this path, eventually they would be priced out, or become un-insurable and thus unemployable.” This is seriously a good point. I'd add that if the officer in question is found guilty or isn't certified, then his partner should be held in some degree just as liable. Tying people's livelihoods together by adhering to the law and qualifications would do a lot to deter the violence perpetrated against minorities and be a strong step in the right direction. Thank you for calling my point a good one.
Personally, I don't favor a collective responsibility of officers to narc on their partners, just I would not wish to have the personal responsibility to narc on co-workers who share my office. I also favor officers having discretion in law enforcement over arrest quotas. Ensuring police productivity is a topic I need to think more about.
We have a system of collective responsibility now. Victims sue the city for police incompetence, and the taxpayers are collectively responsible to pay the settlements. I am not in favor of taxpayers looking to transfer the responsibility to another collective, the police union pension fund being a popular target.
I am in favor of people recognizing the individual responsibility of the incompetent police officer to make amends for his incompetence. This individual responsibility is already recognized for doctors through the malpractice insurance mandate, and doctors enjoy better public relations surrounding instances of incompetence as a result.
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On May 31 2020 06:29 Danglars wrote:Show nested quote +On May 31 2020 05:32 Gorsameth wrote:On May 31 2020 04:57 Danglars wrote:The disturbing part of the violence going with this protests is how many are from out of state. Every person arrested last night was not a resident of Minnesota. As Bill Barr of the DoJ sums up, outside groups encouraged the violence. https://twitter.com/breaking911/status/1266795434141515777(Excerpted from a briefing) I bailed out of downtown LA before the riots there started. It’s so heartbreaking seeing low and mid income communities hurt by coronavirus are seeing their local businesses destroyed. Just no words for agitators that see a racial crime as an opportunity to support violent riots for their agenda. Not really surprising, anywhere a riot happens people flock in who just want an excuse to loot and fight the police. This is the spark that will light the fire to end capitalism or something. Just sad when you think of protestors with real grievances that would march but not torch a police substation. Show nested quote +On May 31 2020 05:33 Stratos_speAr wrote:The disturbing part of the violence going with this protests is how many are from out of state. Every person arrested last night was not a resident of Minnesota. As Bill Barr of the DoJ sums up, outside groups encouraged the violence. True to being a political hack, Barr tries to tag this on "left wing extremists". Not only have the leaders in Minnesota not used this politically charged language, but there have been a lot of reports that there are white supremacist groups contributing to this, which are most likely not "left wing extremists". I'm wondering what the excuses will be when this is basically Antifa, black block, and related groups. These people were arrested, and chances are they'll have rap sheets for other famous protests. Stop playing dumb about what Antifa is famous for doing. Oh yeah, and do post some evidence to counter a briefing by the head of the Justice Department labeling these groups, to not just be another "I heard a guy say..." It's not like violent left-wing extremist groups reward their defenders.
Your post takes Barr as a de facto credible source of evidence. The problem is that the Head of the Justice Department doesn't serve as valid evidence anymore. He has repeatedly demonstrated that he is a corrupt political hack with no real respect for the law.
Therefore, his claims only deserve skepticism until proven otherwise.
You also still don't seem to remember (after how many years now?) that ANTIFA isn't some monolithic entity. Not only that, if ANTIFA groups do turn out to be involved, they will be condemned. However, Barr's language explicitly blaming ANTIFA/far left extremists is politicizing at its finest and very poor leadership.
As for evidence, read the news report I linked earlier. Twin Cities officials are citing white supremacist ties. Based on track record, I sure as hell trust Governor Walz and others in his administration over AG Barr.
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On May 31 2020 06:51 gotchaman wrote:Show nested quote +On May 31 2020 06:14 ZerOCoolSC2 wrote:On May 31 2020 05:11 gotchaman wrote:On May 31 2020 04:14 FueledUpAndReadyToGo wrote:
At this point, what type of change would satisfy people on the street? Reopening of old cases where officers walked free after murder? New agency that polices the police, with prosecutors that don't have a working relationship with them? New police weapon use program where the danger risk moves from civilians to cops, ie they can't draw weapons until they are actually in danger?
I can't speak for all the people on the street but personally I think, just as doctors have tried to adopt best practices from pilots and assembly line workers to reduce error, police should look to doctors to improve accountability. The pay of doctors and police overlap and they work together in forensics, mental health, and emergency services. Doctors have better public relations in that they cause far fewer riots while causing much more death through malpractice. I would like to see a system of licensing system for police similar to that of doctors, the most important components of which are an assessment of competency, a review of complaints, and a personal mandate for liability insurance. Here again are possible components of medical licensing and renewal: 1) Completion of a recognized training program 2) Passing competency examinations 3) Passing a criminal background check 4) Passing a civil litigation background check 5) Passing a background check of past license revocation in response to complaints 6) Providing a verifiable professional work history including explanations of periods of unemployment 7) Continuing education, possibly including repeating competency examinations (The police continuing education equivalent might include advances in de-escalation techniques, proficiency in new weapons, changes in laws, First Aid, etc.) 8) Obtaining malpractice insurance I can already foresee that the problem with the Derek Chavuin case is going to be the forensic autopsy. Forensic autopsies are often rife with equivocations big enough for a skilled defense attorney to shape into reasonable doubt. But imagine that Derek Chauvin had to maintain a Basic First Aid certificate to obtain a law enforcement license. He could be nailed for criminal negligence by the testimony of an expert First Aid instructor. Although I have listed malpractice insurance last, it is perhaps the most important. Police work closely with prosecutors, making it difficult to get an unbiased prosecution. Insurers are not so burdened and have their bottom line to consider, which should help to price bad cops out of business through increasing insurance premiums. I am heartened to find some protestors (people on the street) calling for personally mandated liability insurance for police. For example: https://www.masslive.com/springfield/2020/05/george-floyds-death-in-minneapolis-prompts-hundreds-to-protest-police-brutality-outside-springfield-police-headquarters.html“If all police had to carry insurance, the worst offenders would quickly be identified, and they would be charged a higher rate,” said Holly Richardson, community organizer of Out Now. “If they continued down this path, eventually they would be priced out, or become un-insurable and thus unemployable.” This is seriously a good point. I'd add that if the officer in question is found guilty or isn't certified, then his partner should be held in some degree just as liable. Tying people's livelihoods together by adhering to the law and qualifications would do a lot to deter the violence perpetrated against minorities and be a strong step in the right direction. Thank you for calling my point a good one. Personally, I don't favor a collective responsibility of officers to narc on their partners, just I would not wish to have the personal responsibility to narc on co-workers who share my office. I also favor officers having discretion in law enforcement over arrest quotas. Ensuring police productivity is a topic I need to think more about. We have a system of collective responsibility now. Victims sue the city for police incompetence, and the taxpayers are collectively responsible to pay the settlements. I am not in favor of taxpayers looking to transfer the responsibility to another collective, the police union pension fund being a popular target. I am in favor of people recognizing the individual responsibility of the incompetent police officer to make amends for his incompetence. This individual responsibility is already recognized for doctors through the malpractice insurance mandate, and doctors enjoy better public relations surrounding instances of incompetence as a result.
Not sure if folks know this idea has been proposed by citizens and subsequently rejected by police years ago. Specifically in Minneapolis coincidentally enough. Add it to the list of ways the city leadership could have potentially prevented what is happening now and consciously chose not to.
It's important for people to recognize the problem is distinctly not that there aren't viable solutions, new and old alike. It's also not the skin color of the politicians or the party they belong to. It's a big part of what makes the "If you don't like things, VOTE!" lines so offensively asinine amid the current situation.
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Nah, pushing for franchise is in no mutually exclusive from recognizing what demonstrations turned to riots indicate. They are related, but do not oppose one another as a matter of course.
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On May 31 2020 07:07 Stratos_speAr wrote:Show nested quote +On May 31 2020 06:29 Danglars wrote:On May 31 2020 05:32 Gorsameth wrote:On May 31 2020 04:57 Danglars wrote:The disturbing part of the violence going with this protests is how many are from out of state. Every person arrested last night was not a resident of Minnesota. As Bill Barr of the DoJ sums up, outside groups encouraged the violence. https://twitter.com/breaking911/status/1266795434141515777(Excerpted from a briefing) I bailed out of downtown LA before the riots there started. It’s so heartbreaking seeing low and mid income communities hurt by coronavirus are seeing their local businesses destroyed. Just no words for agitators that see a racial crime as an opportunity to support violent riots for their agenda. Not really surprising, anywhere a riot happens people flock in who just want an excuse to loot and fight the police. This is the spark that will light the fire to end capitalism or something. Just sad when you think of protestors with real grievances that would march but not torch a police substation. On May 31 2020 05:33 Stratos_speAr wrote:The disturbing part of the violence going with this protests is how many are from out of state. Every person arrested last night was not a resident of Minnesota. As Bill Barr of the DoJ sums up, outside groups encouraged the violence. True to being a political hack, Barr tries to tag this on "left wing extremists". Not only have the leaders in Minnesota not used this politically charged language, but there have been a lot of reports that there are white supremacist groups contributing to this, which are most likely not "left wing extremists". I'm wondering what the excuses will be when this is basically Antifa, black block, and related groups. These people were arrested, and chances are they'll have rap sheets for other famous protests. Stop playing dumb about what Antifa is famous for doing. Oh yeah, and do post some evidence to counter a briefing by the head of the Justice Department labeling these groups, to not just be another "I heard a guy say..." It's not like violent left-wing extremist groups reward their defenders. Your post takes Barr as a de facto credible source of evidence. The problem is that the Head of the Justice Department doesn't serve as valid evidence anymore. He has repeatedly demonstrated that he is a corrupt political hack with no real respect for the law. Therefore, his claims only deserve skepticism until proven otherwise. You also still don't seem to remember (after how many years now?) that ANTIFA isn't some monolithic entity. Not only that, if ANTIFA groups do turn out to be involved, they will be condemned. However, Barr's language explicitly blaming ANTIFA/far left extremists is politicizing at its finest and very poor leadership. As for evidence, read the news report I linked earlier. Twin Cities officials are citing white supremacist ties. Based on track record, I sure as hell trust Governor Walz and others in his administration over AG Barr.
Any good attorney general nominated by a Republican is going to get this kind of partisan discounting. So sorry that he isn't on your team.
And citing what white supremacists post online will get you nowhere. They want to be more than the pathetic 200 that show up at an event months in the making. I'm sure antifa too would enjoy their online forum claims taken as absolute evidence of their power and influence.
If we're doing the trust game, I'm worried that the departments who never reform their police force will absolutely love to cast disparaging comments at far right figures. When you have monolithic political power for 40+ years, Democrats are very motivated to find scapegoats for all the reasons they can't lead their police departments and call attention to misbehavior in police unions. Go vote in the Republicans for 2-4 years, because they sure as hell can't do a worse job of protecting their citizens from looters. Reform the political party that has been in control of Minneapolis since Gerald Ford was president, ffs.
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On May 31 2020 07:45 farvacola wrote:
Nah, pushing for franchise is in no mutually exclusive from recognizing what demonstrations turned to riots indicate. They are related, but do not oppose one another as a matter of course.
I'm not speaking to enfranchisement in general? I'm referring to the "don't riot, vote" rhetoric if that wasn't clear.
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On May 31 2020 05:32 Gorsameth wrote:Not really surprising, anywhere a riot happens people flock in who just want an excuse to loot and fight the police.
It's almost like the place isn't important, but that incidents like this have stained the US police force up and down the country, thus pissing off elements of the population everywhere. Or something.
I mean, read that Burges article. Look at the horrors that fuck inflicted on his victims. And in the end, all they got him for - and only him, not the dozens of other people involved - was a few years for perjury. That's an obscenity. Now we have a cop murdering a black man in the middle of the street after handcuffing him. and I think people justifiably have no expectation of justice.
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On May 31 2020 08:01 iamthedave wrote:Show nested quote +On May 31 2020 05:32 Gorsameth wrote:On May 31 2020 04:57 Danglars wrote:The disturbing part of the violence going with this protests is how many are from out of state. Every person arrested last night was not a resident of Minnesota. As Bill Barr of the DoJ sums up, outside groups encouraged the violence. https://twitter.com/breaking911/status/1266795434141515777(Excerpted from a briefing) I bailed out of downtown LA before the riots there started. It’s so heartbreaking seeing low and mid income communities hurt by coronavirus are seeing their local businesses destroyed. Just no words for agitators that see a racial crime as an opportunity to support violent riots for their agenda. Not really surprising, anywhere a riot happens people flock in who just want an excuse to loot and fight the police. It's almost like the place isn't important, but that incidents like this have stained the US police force up and down the country, thus pissing off elements of the population everywhere. Or something. Rioters coming from outside to have 'fun' in a good ol' riot isn't a US thing. It happens in every single country that ever has a riot.
Yes the issues with the US police are far and wide but that isn't what I was talking about.
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On May 31 2020 07:19 GreenHorizons wrote:Show nested quote +On May 31 2020 06:51 gotchaman wrote:On May 31 2020 06:14 ZerOCoolSC2 wrote:On May 31 2020 05:11 gotchaman wrote:On May 31 2020 04:14 FueledUpAndReadyToGo wrote:
At this point, what type of change would satisfy people on the street? Reopening of old cases where officers walked free after murder? New agency that polices the police, with prosecutors that don't have a working relationship with them? New police weapon use program where the danger risk moves from civilians to cops, ie they can't draw weapons until they are actually in danger?
I can't speak for all the people on the street but personally I think, just as doctors have tried to adopt best practices from pilots and assembly line workers to reduce error, police should look to doctors to improve accountability. The pay of doctors and police overlap and they work together in forensics, mental health, and emergency services. Doctors have better public relations in that they cause far fewer riots while causing much more death through malpractice. I would like to see a system of licensing system for police similar to that of doctors, the most important components of which are an assessment of competency, a review of complaints, and a personal mandate for liability insurance. Here again are possible components of medical licensing and renewal: 1) Completion of a recognized training program 2) Passing competency examinations 3) Passing a criminal background check 4) Passing a civil litigation background check 5) Passing a background check of past license revocation in response to complaints 6) Providing a verifiable professional work history including explanations of periods of unemployment 7) Continuing education, possibly including repeating competency examinations (The police continuing education equivalent might include advances in de-escalation techniques, proficiency in new weapons, changes in laws, First Aid, etc.) 8) Obtaining malpractice insurance I can already foresee that the problem with the Derek Chavuin case is going to be the forensic autopsy. Forensic autopsies are often rife with equivocations big enough for a skilled defense attorney to shape into reasonable doubt. But imagine that Derek Chauvin had to maintain a Basic First Aid certificate to obtain a law enforcement license. He could be nailed for criminal negligence by the testimony of an expert First Aid instructor. Although I have listed malpractice insurance last, it is perhaps the most important. Police work closely with prosecutors, making it difficult to get an unbiased prosecution. Insurers are not so burdened and have their bottom line to consider, which should help to price bad cops out of business through increasing insurance premiums. I am heartened to find some protestors (people on the street) calling for personally mandated liability insurance for police. For example: https://www.masslive.com/springfield/2020/05/george-floyds-death-in-minneapolis-prompts-hundreds-to-protest-police-brutality-outside-springfield-police-headquarters.html“If all police had to carry insurance, the worst offenders would quickly be identified, and they would be charged a higher rate,” said Holly Richardson, community organizer of Out Now. “If they continued down this path, eventually they would be priced out, or become un-insurable and thus unemployable.” This is seriously a good point. I'd add that if the officer in question is found guilty or isn't certified, then his partner should be held in some degree just as liable. Tying people's livelihoods together by adhering to the law and qualifications would do a lot to deter the violence perpetrated against minorities and be a strong step in the right direction. Thank you for calling my point a good one. Personally, I don't favor a collective responsibility of officers to narc on their partners, just I would not wish to have the personal responsibility to narc on co-workers who share my office. I also favor officers having discretion in law enforcement over arrest quotas. Ensuring police productivity is a topic I need to think more about. We have a system of collective responsibility now. Victims sue the city for police incompetence, and the taxpayers are collectively responsible to pay the settlements. I am not in favor of taxpayers looking to transfer the responsibility to another collective, the police union pension fund being a popular target. I am in favor of people recognizing the individual responsibility of the incompetent police officer to make amends for his incompetence. This individual responsibility is already recognized for doctors through the malpractice insurance mandate, and doctors enjoy better public relations surrounding instances of incompetence as a result. Not sure if folks know this idea has been proposed by citizens and subsequently rejected by police years ago. Specifically in Minneapolis coincidentally enough. Add it to the list of ways the city leadership could have potentially prevented what is happening now and consciously chose not to. It's important for people to recognize the problem is distinctly not that there aren't viable solutions, new and old alike. It's also not the skin color of the politicians or the party they belong to. It's a big part of what makes the "If you don't like things, VOTE!" lines so offensively asinine amid the current situation. I am not here to suggest voting as the best method. I don't know what is the best method. I recognize that violent revolution has a history of getting things done in the West, dating back at least to the Magna Carta.
I am here to suggest, now that a seat at the negotiating table is being actively fought for, what might might be negotiated for a more lasting peace. So, best practices in terms of accountability of authorities is my focus.
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EPT
