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On May 31 2020 07:53 GreenHorizons wrote:Show nested quote +On May 31 2020 07:45 farvacola wrote:
Nah, pushing for franchise is in no mutually exclusive from recognizing what demonstrations turned to riots indicate. They are related, but do not oppose one another as a matter of course. I'm not speaking to enfranchisement in general? I'm referring to the "don't riot, vote" rhetoric if that wasn't clear.
Fair enough, I get your point.
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On May 31 2020 08:31 gotchaman wrote:Show nested quote +On May 31 2020 07:19 GreenHorizons wrote:On May 31 2020 06:51 gotchaman wrote:On May 31 2020 06:14 ZerOCoolSC2 wrote:On May 31 2020 05:11 gotchaman wrote:On May 31 2020 04:14 FueledUpAndReadyToGo wrote:
At this point, what type of change would satisfy people on the street? Reopening of old cases where officers walked free after murder? New agency that polices the police, with prosecutors that don't have a working relationship with them? New police weapon use program where the danger risk moves from civilians to cops, ie they can't draw weapons until they are actually in danger?
I can't speak for all the people on the street but personally I think, just as doctors have tried to adopt best practices from pilots and assembly line workers to reduce error, police should look to doctors to improve accountability. The pay of doctors and police overlap and they work together in forensics, mental health, and emergency services. Doctors have better public relations in that they cause far fewer riots while causing much more death through malpractice. I would like to see a system of licensing system for police similar to that of doctors, the most important components of which are an assessment of competency, a review of complaints, and a personal mandate for liability insurance. Here again are possible components of medical licensing and renewal: 1) Completion of a recognized training program 2) Passing competency examinations 3) Passing a criminal background check 4) Passing a civil litigation background check 5) Passing a background check of past license revocation in response to complaints 6) Providing a verifiable professional work history including explanations of periods of unemployment 7) Continuing education, possibly including repeating competency examinations (The police continuing education equivalent might include advances in de-escalation techniques, proficiency in new weapons, changes in laws, First Aid, etc.) 8) Obtaining malpractice insurance I can already foresee that the problem with the Derek Chavuin case is going to be the forensic autopsy. Forensic autopsies are often rife with equivocations big enough for a skilled defense attorney to shape into reasonable doubt. But imagine that Derek Chauvin had to maintain a Basic First Aid certificate to obtain a law enforcement license. He could be nailed for criminal negligence by the testimony of an expert First Aid instructor. Although I have listed malpractice insurance last, it is perhaps the most important. Police work closely with prosecutors, making it difficult to get an unbiased prosecution. Insurers are not so burdened and have their bottom line to consider, which should help to price bad cops out of business through increasing insurance premiums. I am heartened to find some protestors (people on the street) calling for personally mandated liability insurance for police. For example: https://www.masslive.com/springfield/2020/05/george-floyds-death-in-minneapolis-prompts-hundreds-to-protest-police-brutality-outside-springfield-police-headquarters.html“If all police had to carry insurance, the worst offenders would quickly be identified, and they would be charged a higher rate,” said Holly Richardson, community organizer of Out Now. “If they continued down this path, eventually they would be priced out, or become un-insurable and thus unemployable.” This is seriously a good point. I'd add that if the officer in question is found guilty or isn't certified, then his partner should be held in some degree just as liable. Tying people's livelihoods together by adhering to the law and qualifications would do a lot to deter the violence perpetrated against minorities and be a strong step in the right direction. Thank you for calling my point a good one. Personally, I don't favor a collective responsibility of officers to narc on their partners, just I would not wish to have the personal responsibility to narc on co-workers who share my office. I also favor officers having discretion in law enforcement over arrest quotas. Ensuring police productivity is a topic I need to think more about. We have a system of collective responsibility now. Victims sue the city for police incompetence, and the taxpayers are collectively responsible to pay the settlements. I am not in favor of taxpayers looking to transfer the responsibility to another collective, the police union pension fund being a popular target. I am in favor of people recognizing the individual responsibility of the incompetent police officer to make amends for his incompetence. This individual responsibility is already recognized for doctors through the malpractice insurance mandate, and doctors enjoy better public relations surrounding instances of incompetence as a result. Not sure if folks know this idea has been proposed by citizens and subsequently rejected by police years ago. Specifically in Minneapolis coincidentally enough. Add it to the list of ways the city leadership could have potentially prevented what is happening now and consciously chose not to. It's important for people to recognize the problem is distinctly not that there aren't viable solutions, new and old alike. It's also not the skin color of the politicians or the party they belong to. It's a big part of what makes the "If you don't like things, VOTE!" lines so offensively asinine amid the current situation. I am not here to suggest voting as the best method. I don't know what is the best method. I recognize that violent revolution has a history of getting things done in the West, dating back at least to the Magna Carta. I am here to suggest, now that a seat at the negotiating table is being actively fought for, what might might be negotiated for a more lasting peace. So, best practices in terms of accountability of authorities is my focus.
Whatever ideas people have would be served well by filtering them through an understanding that they are known, appreciated by the public, and have been summarily rejected by police. The issue isn't then best practices for accountability, but how to enforce such a system on agents of the state that violently refuse it.
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On May 31 2020 07:47 Danglars wrote:Show nested quote +On May 31 2020 07:07 Stratos_speAr wrote:On May 31 2020 06:29 Danglars wrote:On May 31 2020 05:32 Gorsameth wrote:On May 31 2020 04:57 Danglars wrote:The disturbing part of the violence going with this protests is how many are from out of state. Every person arrested last night was not a resident of Minnesota. As Bill Barr of the DoJ sums up, outside groups encouraged the violence. (Excerpted from a briefing) I bailed out of downtown LA before the riots there started. It’s so heartbreaking seeing low and mid income communities hurt by coronavirus are seeing their local businesses destroyed. Just no words for agitators that see a racial crime as an opportunity to support violent riots for their agenda. Not really surprising, anywhere a riot happens people flock in who just want an excuse to loot and fight the police. This is the spark that will light the fire to end capitalism or something. Just sad when you think of protestors with real grievances that would march but not torch a police substation. On May 31 2020 05:33 Stratos_speAr wrote:The disturbing part of the violence going with this protests is how many are from out of state. Every person arrested last night was not a resident of Minnesota. As Bill Barr of the DoJ sums up, outside groups encouraged the violence. True to being a political hack, Barr tries to tag this on "left wing extremists". Not only have the leaders in Minnesota not used this politically charged language, but there have been a lot of reports that there are white supremacist groups contributing to this, which are most likely not "left wing extremists". I'm wondering what the excuses will be when this is basically Antifa, black block, and related groups. These people were arrested, and chances are they'll have rap sheets for other famous protests. Stop playing dumb about what Antifa is famous for doing. Oh yeah, and do post some evidence to counter a briefing by the head of the Justice Department labeling these groups, to not just be another "I heard a guy say..." It's not like violent left-wing extremist groups reward their defenders. Your post takes Barr as a de facto credible source of evidence. The problem is that the Head of the Justice Department doesn't serve as valid evidence anymore. He has repeatedly demonstrated that he is a corrupt political hack with no real respect for the law. Therefore, his claims only deserve skepticism until proven otherwise. You also still don't seem to remember (after how many years now?) that ANTIFA isn't some monolithic entity. Not only that, if ANTIFA groups do turn out to be involved, they will be condemned. However, Barr's language explicitly blaming ANTIFA/far left extremists is politicizing at its finest and very poor leadership. As for evidence, read the news report I linked earlier. Twin Cities officials are citing white supremacist ties. Based on track record, I sure as hell trust Governor Walz and others in his administration over AG Barr. Any good attorney general nominated by a Republican is going to get this kind of partisan discounting. So sorry that he isn't on your team. And citing what white supremacists post online will get you nowhere. They want to be more than the pathetic 200 that show up at an event months in the making. I'm sure antifa too would enjoy their online forum claims taken as absolute evidence of their power and influence. If we're doing the trust game, I'm worried that the departments who never reform their police force will absolutely love to cast disparaging comments at far right figures. When you have monolithic political power for 40+ years, Democrats are very motivated to find scapegoats for all the reasons they can't lead their police departments and call attention to misbehavior in police unions. Go vote in the Republicans for 2-4 years, because they sure as hell can't do a worse job of protecting their citizens from looters. Reform the political party that has been in control of Minneapolis since Gerald Ford was president, ffs.
"Fuck it, try someone else!"
How cute. Like we don't know what Republicans would do to Minnesota. There's a reason they keep losing statewide elections.
The problems with police forces go far beyond what political party is in power. Republicans and Democrats alike have had huge problems with corrupt/racist police departments. If you really think Republicans deserve a shot at trying to fix this, show me anything meaningful that Republicans have tried to do to tackle the systematic racism inherent in the police/justice system.
And trying to equivocate Barr's heinous warping of the DoJ's role to personally protect Trump with run-of-the-mill partisan acting by previous AG's just makes you lose what little credibility you might have left.
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Barr has been nothing but a power-hungry partisan hack and a yes man the entire time. He is far from "any good AG". Let's not indulge the gaslighting. There is plenty of instances so far of white supremacists and police alike (not entirely different groups at this point) taking their turns escalating events.
"But I'm just concerned about all the violent folx the radical Antifa are shipping over" is the classic Republican game of shipping arguments full of so many fallacies, that if you spend the time unpacking it you've already given it too much energy.
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On May 31 2020 09:41 Stratos_speAr wrote:Show nested quote +On May 31 2020 07:47 Danglars wrote:On May 31 2020 07:07 Stratos_speAr wrote:On May 31 2020 06:29 Danglars wrote:On May 31 2020 05:32 Gorsameth wrote:On May 31 2020 04:57 Danglars wrote:The disturbing part of the violence going with this protests is how many are from out of state. Every person arrested last night was not a resident of Minnesota. As Bill Barr of the DoJ sums up, outside groups encouraged the violence. https://twitter.com/breaking911/status/1266795434141515777(Excerpted from a briefing) I bailed out of downtown LA before the riots there started. It’s so heartbreaking seeing low and mid income communities hurt by coronavirus are seeing their local businesses destroyed. Just no words for agitators that see a racial crime as an opportunity to support violent riots for their agenda. Not really surprising, anywhere a riot happens people flock in who just want an excuse to loot and fight the police. This is the spark that will light the fire to end capitalism or something. Just sad when you think of protestors with real grievances that would march but not torch a police substation. On May 31 2020 05:33 Stratos_speAr wrote:The disturbing part of the violence going with this protests is how many are from out of state. Every person arrested last night was not a resident of Minnesota. As Bill Barr of the DoJ sums up, outside groups encouraged the violence. True to being a political hack, Barr tries to tag this on "left wing extremists". Not only have the leaders in Minnesota not used this politically charged language, but there have been a lot of reports that there are white supremacist groups contributing to this, which are most likely not "left wing extremists". I'm wondering what the excuses will be when this is basically Antifa, black block, and related groups. These people were arrested, and chances are they'll have rap sheets for other famous protests. Stop playing dumb about what Antifa is famous for doing. Oh yeah, and do post some evidence to counter a briefing by the head of the Justice Department labeling these groups, to not just be another "I heard a guy say..." It's not like violent left-wing extremist groups reward their defenders. Your post takes Barr as a de facto credible source of evidence. The problem is that the Head of the Justice Department doesn't serve as valid evidence anymore. He has repeatedly demonstrated that he is a corrupt political hack with no real respect for the law. Therefore, his claims only deserve skepticism until proven otherwise. You also still don't seem to remember (after how many years now?) that ANTIFA isn't some monolithic entity. Not only that, if ANTIFA groups do turn out to be involved, they will be condemned. However, Barr's language explicitly blaming ANTIFA/far left extremists is politicizing at its finest and very poor leadership. As for evidence, read the news report I linked earlier. Twin Cities officials are citing white supremacist ties. Based on track record, I sure as hell trust Governor Walz and others in his administration over AG Barr. Any good attorney general nominated by a Republican is going to get this kind of partisan discounting. So sorry that he isn't on your team. And citing what white supremacists post online will get you nowhere. They want to be more than the pathetic 200 that show up at an event months in the making. I'm sure antifa too would enjoy their online forum claims taken as absolute evidence of their power and influence. If we're doing the trust game, I'm worried that the departments who never reform their police force will absolutely love to cast disparaging comments at far right figures. When you have monolithic political power for 40+ years, Democrats are very motivated to find scapegoats for all the reasons they can't lead their police departments and call attention to misbehavior in police unions. Go vote in the Republicans for 2-4 years, because they sure as hell can't do a worse job of protecting their citizens from looters. Reform the political party that has been in control of Minneapolis since Gerald Ford was president, ffs. "Fuck it, try someone else!" How cute. Like we don't know what Republicans would do to Minnesota. There's a reason they keep losing statewide elections. The problems with police forces go far beyond what political party is in power. Republicans and Democrats alike have had huge problems with corrupt/racist police departments. If you really think Republicans deserve a shot at trying to fix this, show me anything meaningful that Republicans have tried to do to tackle the systematic racism inherent in the police/justice system. And trying to equivocate Barr's heinous warping of the DoJ's role to personally protect Trump with run-of-the-mill partisan acting by previous AG's just makes you lose what little credibility you might have left.
I mean, Republicans haven’t been in power at the state or city level in Minneapolis/Minnesota, but some partisans have the temerity to suggest that everybody knows what would happen. Does it involve unaccountable police departments and terrible public sector employee union relationships? Because that’s what you got with the last 40 years of Democrats. Disgraceful. Toss those poor excuses for politicians out of office for a couple years and ask them to nominate some actual leaders. Dismiss the crazies that think political leadership can’t cope with police departments, or can’t accept responsibility.
Barr’s doing great, actually, so tone down the partisan attacks.
On May 31 2020 09:52 NewSunshine wrote:
Barr has been nothing but a power-hungry partisan hack and a yes man the entire time. He is far from "any good AG". Let's not indulge the gaslighting. There is plenty of instances so far of white supremacists and police alike (not entirely different groups at this point) taking their turns escalating events.
"But I'm just concerned about all the violent folx the radical Antifa are shipping over" is the classic Republican game of shipping arguments full of so many fallacies, that if you spend the time unpacking it you've already given it too much energy.
The classic Democratic game is to label bad things as the fault of white supremacists, no matter how poor the connection. So please, stop gaslighting the good federal civic leaders actually doing a good job, and thank Barr for his performance in office. Also, the ultimate gaslight is blaming Republicans for a state when they’ve been out of power for decades. Like ... find a new scapegoat to blame, because it’s like saying Minnesota’s problems date from the Gerald Ford era ... and that frankly is worse that any deflection of blame Trump has ever done. Be better.
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Canada5565 Posts
On May 31 2020 06:01 ShoCkeyy wrote:Show nested quote +On May 31 2020 05:17 Xxio wrote:On May 31 2020 01:23 Jockmcplop wrote:On May 31 2020 01:14 puppykiller wrote:On May 31 2020 00:51 Jockmcplop wrote:On May 31 2020 00:38 Xxio wrote:It's really sad to see how the looting and destruction is impacting local businesses and communities. Sometimes it's the small things, like when Dianne Binns of St. Paul was unable to pick up medication for her daughter. Her words of wisdom: “What are people going to do in those communities when they need those resources? We don’t have many stores as it is. So why are we going to burn down the small business owners who are there for us?” SourceThe sports bar of a firefighter and local coach was looted and burned down. The good news is that 611,000 was raised of a 100,000 fundraiser goal to rebuild. I wonder how much honest, hard-working people will have to pay to fix the mess left by rioting thugs. And this is in a time of business closures, when many people are struggling just to hold on to what they have. "Minnehaha Lake Wine and Spirits has been serving the neighborhood since it was legal to sell alcohol, and run by the same family since 1983. Its vintage neon sign is an icon of the area. News cameras caught the looting of the shop happening early in the evening, and expletives spray painted on the exterior... Town Talk Diner possesses another iconic sign of the area, and has been a small family-run restaurant since 2016. This morning, the words, “Kill Cops,” are visible spray-painted on the front door, under the iconic sign. The restaurant had its windows smashed, interior looted, and chairs and tables strewn about." Source. Many more cases in the article. Those innocent victims of these riots should be furious that it has come to this through years of peaceful protests being ignored. Why don't you burn your own house and store rather than elect members of your community as targets for your demonstration. Why do you get to choose who suffers. What a disgusting and self-righteous mindset. It's like you can't even hear your own words. Disgusting and self righteous! Nice If you only you were that furious about the murder that happened the other day. I mean imagine being angrier about a business having to receive insurance money than hundreds of years of of a whole population being killed by the state lol. Disgusting and self righteous indeed. The whole population has not been killed by the state. In fact, black families are overrepresented as welfare recipients by 26.3%. "FY 1999, Non-Hispanic White families made up 30.5% of the [welfare]caseload, African-American families 38.3%, and Hispanic families, 24.5%." Source. Overall, "The rate of dependency for non-Hispanic Blacks is more than six times that of non-Hispanic Whites, and that of Hispanics is more than four times as high." Source. More stats you may find useful. “Of adults arrested for murder, 53% were Black or African American", an overrepresentation of 41%. Source. From 2012-2015, black people represented 22.7% of violent crime offenders, an overrepresentation of 10.7%. White people committed 8.9% (91,470 offenders) of violent crime against black people. Black people committed 17.8% (540,360 offenders) of violent crime against white people. Source. Unfortunately the data is incomplete. "In 2015, 46% of the violent crimes and 19% of the property crimes reported to police were cleared, according to FBI data. 62% of murders and non-negligent homicides in the U.S. were cleared." Source Baltimore, Chicago and New Orleans cleared less than 28% of homicide cases in 2016. Memphis, Detroit, and Indianapolis have similar rates. Source. This is literally what racist argue on Facebook... have you ever thought that it’s possible crime in general is up in poverty stricken areas?? There is no argument, claim, or supposition in my post. Only facts. Interpret them as you please.
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On May 31 2020 10:03 Danglars wrote: Show nested quote +On May 31 2020 09:52 NewSunshine wrote:
Barr has been nothing but a power-hungry partisan hack and a yes man the entire time. He is far from "any good AG". Let's not indulge the gaslighting. There is plenty of instances so far of white supremacists and police alike (not entirely different groups at this point) taking their turns escalating events.
"But I'm just concerned about all the violent folx the radical Antifa are shipping over" is the classic Republican game of shipping arguments full of so many fallacies, that if you spend the time unpacking it you've already given it too much energy. The classic Democratic game is to label bad things as the fault of white supremacists, no matter how poor the connection. So please, stop gaslighting the good federal civic leaders actually doing a good job, and thank Barr for his performance in office. Also, the ultimate gaslight is blaming Republicans for a state when they’ve been out of power for decades. Like ... find a new scapegoat to blame, because it’s like saying Minnesota’s problems date from the Gerald Ford era ... and that frankly is worse that any deflection of blame Trump has ever done. Be better.
Your opinion on Barr's performance is your personal conclusion. You may feel free to keep it to yourself. I won't even respond to the rest because it's a blatant mis-construction of my post. Score points elsewhere.
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On May 31 2020 10:10 Xxio wrote:Show nested quote +On May 31 2020 06:01 ShoCkeyy wrote:On May 31 2020 05:17 Xxio wrote:On May 31 2020 01:23 Jockmcplop wrote:On May 31 2020 01:14 puppykiller wrote:On May 31 2020 00:51 Jockmcplop wrote:On May 31 2020 00:38 Xxio wrote:It's really sad to see how the looting and destruction is impacting local businesses and communities. Sometimes it's the small things, like when Dianne Binns of St. Paul was unable to pick up medication for her daughter. Her words of wisdom: “What are people going to do in those communities when they need those resources? We don’t have many stores as it is. So why are we going to burn down the small business owners who are there for us?” SourceThe sports bar of a firefighter and local coach was looted and burned down. The good news is that 611,000 was raised of a 100,000 fundraiser goal to rebuild. I wonder how much honest, hard-working people will have to pay to fix the mess left by rioting thugs. And this is in a time of business closures, when many people are struggling just to hold on to what they have. "Minnehaha Lake Wine and Spirits has been serving the neighborhood since it was legal to sell alcohol, and run by the same family since 1983. Its vintage neon sign is an icon of the area. News cameras caught the looting of the shop happening early in the evening, and expletives spray painted on the exterior... Town Talk Diner possesses another iconic sign of the area, and has been a small family-run restaurant since 2016. This morning, the words, “Kill Cops,” are visible spray-painted on the front door, under the iconic sign. The restaurant had its windows smashed, interior looted, and chairs and tables strewn about." Source. Many more cases in the article. Those innocent victims of these riots should be furious that it has come to this through years of peaceful protests being ignored. Why don't you burn your own house and store rather than elect members of your community as targets for your demonstration. Why do you get to choose who suffers. What a disgusting and self-righteous mindset. It's like you can't even hear your own words. Disgusting and self righteous! Nice If you only you were that furious about the murder that happened the other day. I mean imagine being angrier about a business having to receive insurance money than hundreds of years of of a whole population being killed by the state lol. Disgusting and self righteous indeed. The whole population has not been killed by the state. In fact, black families are overrepresented as welfare recipients by 26.3%. "FY 1999, Non-Hispanic White families made up 30.5% of the [welfare]caseload, African-American families 38.3%, and Hispanic families, 24.5%." Source. Overall, "The rate of dependency for non-Hispanic Blacks is more than six times that of non-Hispanic Whites, and that of Hispanics is more than four times as high." Source. More stats you may find useful. “Of adults arrested for murder, 53% were Black or African American", an overrepresentation of 41%. Source. From 2012-2015, black people represented 22.7% of violent crime offenders, an overrepresentation of 10.7%. White people committed 8.9% (91,470 offenders) of violent crime against black people. Black people committed 17.8% (540,360 offenders) of violent crime against white people. Source. Unfortunately the data is incomplete. "In 2015, 46% of the violent crimes and 19% of the property crimes reported to police were cleared, according to FBI data. 62% of murders and non-negligent homicides in the U.S. were cleared." Source Baltimore, Chicago and New Orleans cleared less than 28% of homicide cases in 2016. Memphis, Detroit, and Indianapolis have similar rates. Source. This is literally what racist argue on Facebook... have you ever thought that it’s possible crime in general is up in poverty stricken areas?? There is no argument, claim, or supposition in my post. Only facts. Interpret them as you please.
Dude don't be a pussy with that "I'm not making any argument just stating facts." There are countless facts in this world but we must select which are relevant to the argument at hand. You chose to share that minorities are more likely to receive welfare and commit violent crimes. The context of this was a highly publicized killing of a black man by a white police officer, ensuing riots, and the value of human life vs property. Say what you mean.
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Uh Tim Pawlenty was governor until 2011 that's not even 9 years ago. And Minnesota is the only state in the union currently with a split state house of a democrat controlled senate and a republican controlled house. Saying Republicans haven't been in power in Minnesota is a lie.
You can say that the democrats haven't done enough for police departments in America while still questioning what the Republicans would do when they have no motivation to find their own solutions.
The problem with police in America isn't just about cops being "bad" Its a vicious cycle of white flight, it being an inherently physiologically and emotionally damaging job, being impossible to recruit for, and being impossible to fund properly.
The problem with fixing police departments in America is going to require titanic investments and decades of slow painful progress. If you watched the wire and you thought at the end "wow the cops are the bad people" you weren't watching the wire.
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If you live in a major U.S. city, particularly if it is one that had riots last night - you may want to stay in tonight. Don't go out please. If you want to protest, do it tomorrow. Tonight will be dangerous. They are blocking cell towers - there is going to likely be crazy shit going down tonight.
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On May 31 2020 11:17 travis wrote:
If you live in a major U.S. city, particularly if it is one that had riots last night - you may want to stay in tonight. Don't go out please. If you want to protest, do it tomorrow. Tonight will be dangerous. They are blocking cell towers - there is going to likely be crazy shit going down tonight.
I got word from my sister that Kansas City popped off. I'm assuming Chicago will follow at some point tonight as well. I'm assuming moderation will allow for live reporting if there is going without needing an explanation?
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On May 31 2020 10:03 Danglars wrote:Show nested quote +On May 31 2020 09:41 Stratos_speAr wrote:On May 31 2020 07:47 Danglars wrote:On May 31 2020 07:07 Stratos_speAr wrote:On May 31 2020 06:29 Danglars wrote:On May 31 2020 05:32 Gorsameth wrote:On May 31 2020 04:57 Danglars wrote:The disturbing part of the violence going with this protests is how many are from out of state. Every person arrested last night was not a resident of Minnesota. As Bill Barr of the DoJ sums up, outside groups encouraged the violence. https://twitter.com/breaking911/status/1266795434141515777(Excerpted from a briefing) I bailed out of downtown LA before the riots there started. It’s so heartbreaking seeing low and mid income communities hurt by coronavirus are seeing their local businesses destroyed. Just no words for agitators that see a racial crime as an opportunity to support violent riots for their agenda. Not really surprising, anywhere a riot happens people flock in who just want an excuse to loot and fight the police. This is the spark that will light the fire to end capitalism or something. Just sad when you think of protestors with real grievances that would march but not torch a police substation. On May 31 2020 05:33 Stratos_speAr wrote:The disturbing part of the violence going with this protests is how many are from out of state. Every person arrested last night was not a resident of Minnesota. As Bill Barr of the DoJ sums up, outside groups encouraged the violence. True to being a political hack, Barr tries to tag this on "left wing extremists". Not only have the leaders in Minnesota not used this politically charged language, but there have been a lot of reports that there are white supremacist groups contributing to this, which are most likely not "left wing extremists". I'm wondering what the excuses will be when this is basically Antifa, black block, and related groups. These people were arrested, and chances are they'll have rap sheets for other famous protests. Stop playing dumb about what Antifa is famous for doing. Oh yeah, and do post some evidence to counter a briefing by the head of the Justice Department labeling these groups, to not just be another "I heard a guy say..." It's not like violent left-wing extremist groups reward their defenders. Your post takes Barr as a de facto credible source of evidence. The problem is that the Head of the Justice Department doesn't serve as valid evidence anymore. He has repeatedly demonstrated that he is a corrupt political hack with no real respect for the law. Therefore, his claims only deserve skepticism until proven otherwise. You also still don't seem to remember (after how many years now?) that ANTIFA isn't some monolithic entity. Not only that, if ANTIFA groups do turn out to be involved, they will be condemned. However, Barr's language explicitly blaming ANTIFA/far left extremists is politicizing at its finest and very poor leadership. As for evidence, read the news report I linked earlier. Twin Cities officials are citing white supremacist ties. Based on track record, I sure as hell trust Governor Walz and others in his administration over AG Barr. Any good attorney general nominated by a Republican is going to get this kind of partisan discounting. So sorry that he isn't on your team. And citing what white supremacists post online will get you nowhere. They want to be more than the pathetic 200 that show up at an event months in the making. I'm sure antifa too would enjoy their online forum claims taken as absolute evidence of their power and influence. If we're doing the trust game, I'm worried that the departments who never reform their police force will absolutely love to cast disparaging comments at far right figures. When you have monolithic political power for 40+ years, Democrats are very motivated to find scapegoats for all the reasons they can't lead their police departments and call attention to misbehavior in police unions. Go vote in the Republicans for 2-4 years, because they sure as hell can't do a worse job of protecting their citizens from looters. Reform the political party that has been in control of Minneapolis since Gerald Ford was president, ffs. "Fuck it, try someone else!" How cute. Like we don't know what Republicans would do to Minnesota. There's a reason they keep losing statewide elections. The problems with police forces go far beyond what political party is in power. Republicans and Democrats alike have had huge problems with corrupt/racist police departments. If you really think Republicans deserve a shot at trying to fix this, show me anything meaningful that Republicans have tried to do to tackle the systematic racism inherent in the police/justice system. And trying to equivocate Barr's heinous warping of the DoJ's role to personally protect Trump with run-of-the-mill partisan acting by previous AG's just makes you lose what little credibility you might have left. I mean, Republicans haven’t been in power at the state or city level in Minneapolis/Minnesota, but some partisans have the temerity to suggest that everybody knows what would happen. Does it involve unaccountable police departments and terrible public sector employee union relationships? Because that’s what you got with the last 40 years of Democrats. Disgraceful. Toss those poor excuses for politicians out of office for a couple years and ask them to nominate some actual leaders. Dismiss the crazies that think political leadership can’t cope with police departments, or can’t accept responsibility. Barr’s doing great, actually, so tone down the partisan attacks. Show nested quote +On May 31 2020 09:52 NewSunshine wrote:
Barr has been nothing but a power-hungry partisan hack and a yes man the entire time. He is far from "any good AG". Let's not indulge the gaslighting. There is plenty of instances so far of white supremacists and police alike (not entirely different groups at this point) taking their turns escalating events.
"But I'm just concerned about all the violent folx the radical Antifa are shipping over" is the classic Republican game of shipping arguments full of so many fallacies, that if you spend the time unpacking it you've already given it too much energy. The classic Democratic game is to label bad things as the fault of white supremacists, no matter how poor the connection. So please, stop gaslighting the good federal civic leaders actually doing a good job, and thank Barr for his performance in office. Also, the ultimate gaslight is blaming Republicans for a state when they’ve been out of power for decades. Like ... find a new scapegoat to blame, because it’s like saying Minnesota’s problems date from the Gerald Ford era ... and that frankly is worse that any deflection of blame Trump has ever done. Be better.
Republicans controlled the governor's mansion until 2012 in Minnesota and controlled both sides of the legislature until as recently as early 2019. They also currently control the Minnesota Senate.
You just keep digging your own grave. Stop talking about things that you know so little about.
That story has already been criticized because it is
1) An extremely small sample size
2) Includes people that were arrested but not related to the rioting
3) Many of the people responsible for the damage last night weren't arrested
4) Doesn't include St. Paul (not in Hennepin County)
Also, the article itself even mentions several of these problems with the available numbers.
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Chicago is supposed to be on lockdown already.
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On May 31 2020 11:31 cLutZ wrote:
Chicago is supposed to be on lockdown already.
So are the twin cities and atlanta. I'd be glad if nothing major happened tonight anywhere, but we'll have to wait and see.
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On May 31 2020 11:24 Stratos_speAr wrote:That story has already been criticized because it is 1) An extremely small sample size 2) Includes people that were arrested but not related to the rioting 3) Many of the people responsible for the damage last night weren't arrested 4) Doesn't include St. Paul (not in Hennepin County) Also, the article itself even mentions several of these problems with the available numbers.
People can criticize this as much as they want, but I'll take this not perfect data over the zero data involved in the other statements. Did the Mayor and Governor standby their statements from earlier today and release the data or have they said they just parroted what they were told?
Sounds like he is making up numbers from his statement here to me. Start at 50 seconds if the two minute clip is too long for you.
+ Show Spoiler [CBS Youtube] +
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There's a guy in Salt Lake who tried to shoot protestors with a bow and arrow (!), then he and his car got beaten up hard by the croud. Afterwards he got interviewed on local Fox and said he got beat up for saying 'all lives matter' and conveniently didn't mention he tried to kill people with a bow.
Shit is bonkers
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Canada5565 Posts
On May 31 2020 11:31 cLutZ wrote:
Chicago is supposed to be on lockdown already. Bridges are up. A man is critically injured in Dallas after rioters beat him with a skateboard and rocks. They also robbed him after he was unconscious or dead.
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On May 31 2020 10:35 Starlightsun wrote:Show nested quote +On May 31 2020 10:10 Xxio wrote:On May 31 2020 06:01 ShoCkeyy wrote:On May 31 2020 05:17 Xxio wrote:On May 31 2020 01:23 Jockmcplop wrote:On May 31 2020 01:14 puppykiller wrote:On May 31 2020 00:51 Jockmcplop wrote:On May 31 2020 00:38 Xxio wrote:It's really sad to see how the looting and destruction is impacting local businesses and communities. Sometimes it's the small things, like when Dianne Binns of St. Paul was unable to pick up medication for her daughter. Her words of wisdom: “What are people going to do in those communities when they need those resources? We don’t have many stores as it is. So why are we going to burn down the small business owners who are there for us?” SourceThe sports bar of a firefighter and local coach was looted and burned down. The good news is that 611,000 was raised of a 100,000 fundraiser goal to rebuild. I wonder how much honest, hard-working people will have to pay to fix the mess left by rioting thugs. And this is in a time of business closures, when many people are struggling just to hold on to what they have. "Minnehaha Lake Wine and Spirits has been serving the neighborhood since it was legal to sell alcohol, and run by the same family since 1983. Its vintage neon sign is an icon of the area. News cameras caught the looting of the shop happening early in the evening, and expletives spray painted on the exterior... Town Talk Diner possesses another iconic sign of the area, and has been a small family-run restaurant since 2016. This morning, the words, “Kill Cops,” are visible spray-painted on the front door, under the iconic sign. The restaurant had its windows smashed, interior looted, and chairs and tables strewn about." Source. Many more cases in the article. Those innocent victims of these riots should be furious that it has come to this through years of peaceful protests being ignored. Why don't you burn your own house and store rather than elect members of your community as targets for your demonstration. Why do you get to choose who suffers. What a disgusting and self-righteous mindset. It's like you can't even hear your own words. Disgusting and self righteous! Nice If you only you were that furious about the murder that happened the other day. I mean imagine being angrier about a business having to receive insurance money than hundreds of years of of a whole population being killed by the state lol. Disgusting and self righteous indeed. The whole population has not been killed by the state. In fact, black families are overrepresented as welfare recipients by 26.3%. "FY 1999, Non-Hispanic White families made up 30.5% of the [welfare]caseload, African-American families 38.3%, and Hispanic families, 24.5%." Source. Overall, "The rate of dependency for non-Hispanic Blacks is more than six times that of non-Hispanic Whites, and that of Hispanics is more than four times as high." Source. More stats you may find useful. “Of adults arrested for murder, 53% were Black or African American", an overrepresentation of 41%. Source. From 2012-2015, black people represented 22.7% of violent crime offenders, an overrepresentation of 10.7%. White people committed 8.9% (91,470 offenders) of violent crime against black people. Black people committed 17.8% (540,360 offenders) of violent crime against white people. Source. Unfortunately the data is incomplete. "In 2015, 46% of the violent crimes and 19% of the property crimes reported to police were cleared, according to FBI data. 62% of murders and non-negligent homicides in the U.S. were cleared." Source Baltimore, Chicago and New Orleans cleared less than 28% of homicide cases in 2016. Memphis, Detroit, and Indianapolis have similar rates. Source. This is literally what racist argue on Facebook... have you ever thought that it’s possible crime in general is up in poverty stricken areas?? There is no argument, claim, or supposition in my post. Only facts. Interpret them as you please. Dude don't be a pussy with that "I'm not making any argument just stating facts." There are countless facts in this world but we must select which are relevant to the argument at hand. You chose to share that minorities are more likely to receive welfare and commit violent crimes. The context of this was a highly publicized killing of a black man by a white police officer, ensuing riots, and the value of human life vs property. Say what you mean.
That post is clear and straight forward to me. I don't see any racist stance in the post, either.
Just a good post correctly stating that the fact of the matter is that "the whole population" is not being killed by the "state" as Jockmcplop claimed, followed by facts that many may find useful.
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The facts themselves aren’t racist, I’m just trying to think of a point someone could be trying to make with them in the context of police brutality against blacks that wouldn’t be racist. If I think of one I’ll let you know, sounds like Xxio is gonna insist he wasn’t trying to make a point so we can only guess what made him bring up welfare and murder statistics.
Hey, do white supremacists think this is the race war they always predicted? Probably, right?
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EPT
