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I dont factor anything republican into the equation, as far as Im concerned they are FAR too far gone to be able to be brought back, nothing will ever stop a Republican from voting Republican as far as I'm concerned. They won't change and theres nothing I can do about that.
So I'm left with the Democrat half. There is SOME inkling that it is unacceptable to be shitty, only some, but it is there.
Now what do I do about it? What can I do about it? My thinking starts with a couple of assumptions that I will acknowledge may just be false.
1. The Democrats want to win more than they want to be conservatives.
This one is raw hope, pure unadulterated prayers are what form this belief. Democrat voters seem to want to win more than anything else, hence their VoteBlueNoMatterWho thing (which, god fucking help me, this is gross right? Can anyone else see why I think a campaign of "vote for our side literally no matter what!" is disgusting?!)
2. The Democrats would be capable of losing an election, and trying something new in an effort to win in the future.
This one is predicated on the first one, because if theyre willing to stick to being conservative we'll never reach this step. But assuming they give two shits about being in power, maybe they will work harder to enfranchise progressives and people who are obviously pissed about the likes of Biden and Hillary being what we're forced to deal with.
So if Biden loses the presidency, we might see Democrats give a second thought to nominating ANOTHER old, white conservative the next time they want to win the presidency.
My problem with your statement micronesia, is this is so far away from being some new problem, and "we just need to figure something out" doesnt sit right with me because how many more sex offenders do we need to tolerate for president before we even begin to "figure something out?"
How many times do we need to have a conservative president before we decide enough is enough?
Frankly, I don't see it. I don't see what you could do within the bounds of the system where you voting makes any difference whatsoever. Nothing.
If we say a Yellow Vest movement, maybe something would change, but Americans havent had that kind of spirit in a very long time.
So, without going out and hurling molotovs myself, I only see the one path to any change in my life time, and thats to tell the Democrats to fuck off when they've got shitty god awful candidates, and hope that maybe enough people feel my way that we become a necessary voting bloc for the Democrats to consider. Also advocating and volunteering for local progressive campaigns to make what I stand for and what people like me stand for more visible.
But yeah, I'm sorry, I can't do these stall tactics, I just can't. The US is awful for me, I'm tired of feeling too afraid of going to the doctor when sick that I'd nearly choke in my sleep to avoid potential medical debt, I'm tired of low wages and high debt, I'm tired of feeling like no matter what I do I exist exclusively to be squeezed for value by people with grotesque amounts of wealth. I'm tired of feeling like I have to give two SHITS about the comfort of people who got to grow up during times where they had opportunities to make decent lives for themselves.
I am not going to be easy, if the Democrats want my vote they'll have to earn it, and in the mean time I'll fight for people who I believe have or will earn it.
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Holy shit this thread the past few pages...
A small thought came to my mind: since we count by electoral votes and my state is overwhelming, dominantly voting blue. Does that mean I shouldn’t even bother to show up to polls if I want to support trump.
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I mean you should still vote for local elections as those matter far more in your daily lives then the president but if you don't want to vote for either you don't have to in the far left or right states.
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On April 09 2020 06:58 Sent. wrote:Show nested quote +On April 09 2020 06:48 GreenHorizons wrote:On April 09 2020 06:45 Nebuchad wrote:On April 09 2020 06:26 Wombat_NI wrote:
Unless Biden throws bones to the Sanders crowd or those of a progressive ilk, then why should they come out for him in the polls?
Even considering they didn’t garner sufficient support to take the primary, they are still a sizeable bloc, especially in a general and if they’re completely ignored it’ll be a huge error. Liberals when talking about conservatives: As an adult who is pragmatic, I understand the value of compromise, which is why I offered a compromise to the republicans before they even made a single demand. It's better to get 15% of what I want than nothing at all. Liberals when talking about leftists: + Show Spoiler + They hate leftists more than they hate fascists and they can't help but reveal themselves at every opportunity imo. They still see conservatives as their true enemy, but they're more frustrated with leftists because they think leftists are dragging their team down with their unrealistic ideas. From their perspective, it looks like getting rushed in a 3v3 by a team of conservatives and seeing their leftist teammates answer that with a fleet beacon.
A key component of neoliberalism is the liberal being on the left, representing rationality and the status quo, versus the conservative / fascist / whatever on the right, representing change. That way they represent rationality vs the evil forces of obscurantism which obviously is a good rhetorical framework.
In that sense it's true that conservatives are their main opponents but it's also who they want to have as main opponents, because that makes it so that if you value making sense, they should win.
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On April 09 2020 07:14 Nebuchad wrote:Show nested quote +On April 09 2020 06:58 Sent. wrote:On April 09 2020 06:48 GreenHorizons wrote:On April 09 2020 06:45 Nebuchad wrote:On April 09 2020 06:26 Wombat_NI wrote:
Unless Biden throws bones to the Sanders crowd or those of a progressive ilk, then why should they come out for him in the polls?
Even considering they didn’t garner sufficient support to take the primary, they are still a sizeable bloc, especially in a general and if they’re completely ignored it’ll be a huge error. Liberals when talking about conservatives: As an adult who is pragmatic, I understand the value of compromise, which is why I offered a compromise to the republicans before they even made a single demand. It's better to get 15% of what I want than nothing at all. Liberals when talking about leftists: + Show Spoiler + They hate leftists more than they hate fascists and they can't help but reveal themselves at every opportunity imo. They still see conservatives as their true enemy, but they're more frustrated with leftists because they think leftists are dragging their team down with their unrealistic ideas. From their perspective, it looks like getting rushed in a 3v3 by a team of conservatives and seeing their leftist teammates answer that with a fleet beacon. A key component of neoliberalism is the liberal being on the left, representing rationality and the status quo, versus the conservative / fascist / whatever on the right, representing change. That way they represent rationality vs the evil forces of obscurantism which obviously is a good rhetorical framework. In that sense it's true that conservatives are their main opponents but it's also who they want to have as main opponents, because that makes it so that if you value making sense, they should win.
No matter how disconnected it gets from the real world consequences Zambrah describes, let alone the camps Obama built, to their further degradation/expansion under Trump (after nominating Hillary), people trapped in prison making hand sanitizer they aren't even allowed access to, or all the rest.
lesser evilism with neoliberalism as the rational left bound has no mechanism to stop a descent into fascistic dictatorships. Other than perhaps corporate fiefdoms run by benevolent boards
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United States24686 Posts
Let's start with the bottom line first.
On April 09 2020 07:09 Zambrah wrote:
I am not going to be easy, if the Democrats want my vote they'll have to earn it, and in the mean time I'll fight for people who I believe have or will earn it.
I think this sentence pretty much explains why the rest of your posting is the way it is. You (rightfully) are very frustrated with the state of the U.S. (as am I), and so you are saying things like democrats need to earn your vote. And it's going to be difficult. The problem is, you don't vote for parties... you vote for candidates. You don't have to like the democratic party to vote for a democrat. You certainly don't have to register yourself as a democrat if you don't want to. You don't have to vote in the democratic primary either if you don't want to (in states where independents may do so). This sense of entitlement you have that your vote needs to be earned instead of simply voting for the person you choose is counterproductive to your cause.
Back to the post from the top:
I dont factor anything republican into the equation, as far as Im concerned they are FAR too far gone to be able to be brought back, nothing will ever stop a Republican from voting Republican as far as I'm concerned. They won't change and theres nothing I can do about that.
If you truly think this then let's be honest, we are all fucked. Your argument shouldn't be "I'm going to write in Bernie (or leave the president blank) so that maybe next time the democrats will actually put somebody good up for the general election," it should be "I'm building myself an underground shelter I can live in for 50 years because the country/world is so fucked." I agree when you look at the state of Trump's base and overall at the Republican party (with some exceptions like Governor Hogan) you have to ask yourself why you were born into a resurgence of the middle ages. I'm not quite as hopeless as you although I agree things are kind of grim.
So I'm left with the Democrat half. There is SOME inkling that it is unacceptable to be shitty, only some, but it is there.
Now what do I do about it? What can I do about it? My thinking starts with a couple of assumptions that I will acknowledge may just be false.
1. The Democrats want to win more than they want to be conservatives.
This one is raw hope, pure unadulterated prayers are what form this belief. Democrat voters seem to want to win more than anything else, hence their VoteBlueNoMatterWho thing (which, god fucking help me, this is gross right? Can anyone else see why I think a campaign of "vote for our side literally no matter what!" is disgusting?!)
2. The Democrats would be capable of losing an election, and trying something new in an effort to win in the future.
This one is predicated on the first one, because if theyre willing to stick to being conservative we'll never reach this step. But assuming they give two shits about being in power, maybe they will work harder to enfranchise progressives and people who are obviously pissed about the likes of Biden and Hillary being what we're forced to deal with.
So if Biden loses the presidency, we might see Democrats give a second thought to nominating ANOTHER old, white conservative the next time they want to win the presidency.
My problem with your statement micronesia, is this is so far away from being some new problem, and "we just need to figure something out" doesnt sit right with me because how many more sex offenders do we need to tolerate for president before we even begin to "figure something out?"
I have two issues here. The first is that this is kind of a new problem. I agree, it's not entirely new. But the Trump situation is much worse than anything we've seen in the U.S. before. My second issue is that you are mischaracterizing what I was saying. I was not saying "we need to figure something out." Just because I didn't branch off into a discussion about all the things we can do to improve the situation that are not directly linked to how we vote in November does not mean those things are just some nebulous "we'll think of something" solution.
How many times do we need to have a conservative president before we decide enough is enough?
Frankly, I don't see it. I don't see what you could do within the bounds of the system where you voting makes any difference whatsoever. Nothing. I would start with trying to win more left-leaning people over to your cause (outside of the election process perhaps) rather than alienating them. Most democrats or voters who tend to vote democrat, that I know, think Bernie supporters are some of the nastiest pains in the ass around. That's not entirely Bernie supporters' fault, and it's not entirely the other democrats' fault. Both sides need to do a better job of resolving differences, and politely agreeing to disagree when warranted. Republicans love it when people who disagree with them fight among themselves. Another thing would be to stop demonizing republicans by saying things like you did, that they are far too gone. I'm not telling you to forgive and forget lots of the crap that's happened in recent years... I'm saying don't close your mind entirely to the possibility of improving the situation. There is the possibility for improvement.
If we say a Yellow Vest movement, maybe something would change, but Americans havent had that kind of spirit in a very long time.
So, without going out and hurling molotovs myself, I only see the one path to any change in my life time, and thats to tell the Democrats to fuck off when they've got shitty god awful candidates, and hope that maybe enough people feel my way that we become a necessary voting bloc for the Democrats to consider. Also advocating and volunteering for local progressive campaigns to make what I stand for and what people like me stand for more visible.
But yeah, I'm sorry, I can't do these stall tactics, I just can't. The US is awful for me, I'm tired of feeling too afraid of going to the doctor when sick that I'd nearly choke in my sleep to avoid potential medical debt, I'm tired of low wages and high debt, I'm tired of feeling like no matter what I do I exist exclusively to be squeezed for value by people with grotesque amounts of wealth. I'm tired of feeling like I have to give two SHITS about the comfort of people who got to grow up during times where they had opportunities to make decent lives for themselves.
With another Trump term I think you'll have far more to be tired of than even that.
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On April 09 2020 07:09 Emnjay808 wrote:
Holy shit this thread the past few pages...
A small thought came to my mind: since we count by electoral votes and my state is overwhelming, dominantly voting blue. Does that mean I shouldn’t even bother to show up to polls if I want to support trump.
Probably not, you still want to vote because you start to see trends. Like with dems in texas, because enough of them are voting the DNC is putting more work into texas. Could be the same for your state. Unless its CA, then stay home 
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I'm bouncing between multiple things so this may be disjointed but,
You say we vote for candidates not parties, but I'm being told to vote for parties, I'm going to vote third party, probably green, because the green party candidate typically aligns more with my beliefs and Biden nor Trump are good enough to move me away from that. I know its basically like not voting, but I am voting for a candidate and not the party in this context, whereas people would really want me to just vote party line because the other party is so bad.
I sincerely don't think theres anyone to be won over to progressivism that doesn't already agree with progressivism. I dont think the issue is winning people over, I think its dispelling the illusions that I believe keep people away from voting progressive.
I think a lot of that right now is "electibility," the idea that progressives CANT win and only conservatives can win, so we all have to vote conservative or the more conservatives will win.
Maybe if conservatives lose people will stop seeing conservatism as the only way to win elections.
As for my personal life, I've gotten more republican-esque working class types to be interested in progressivism than I have upper middle class Democrats. Those types are comfortable, they're HAPPY to wait things out because their lives are comfortable and they don't feel any of the strain that people in my economic strata feel. This is all just anecdotal so it doesn't mean much, but this is why I don't really place a premium on trying to make progressivism appealing to the left-leaning people I know (most of them are quite well off.)
And I can't just blankly vote for sex offenders without some hope, I can't hear the words "we'll figure something out" and not really, really, REALLY need something more than that. I have a plan that I think might work, I need something, actually something, to avert from it when the alternative to my plan is, right now, approximately nothing.
Incidentally I'm burned out on being tired of the republicans. They did it, I officially can't bring myself to be anything but resigned to their shittiness, its like staring into a black hole, all light disappears into it and nothing can escape it's grasp. Its more frustrating for me to see Democrats be shitty because I hope they'd be better, whereas the current batch of Republicans is going to be the way it is until Mitch McConnell is dead in the ground. Maybe when the conservative Democrats start dying off we can have a party that advocates for real change and makes an effort to make that change happen, but hell, if Buttigieg is any indication I'm sure we'll just have our next younger batch of corporate stooges to shill for their masters while making sure to fuck over people like me as best they can.
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On April 09 2020 07:24 GreenHorizons wrote:Show nested quote +On April 09 2020 07:14 Nebuchad wrote:On April 09 2020 06:58 Sent. wrote:On April 09 2020 06:48 GreenHorizons wrote:On April 09 2020 06:45 Nebuchad wrote:On April 09 2020 06:26 Wombat_NI wrote:
Unless Biden throws bones to the Sanders crowd or those of a progressive ilk, then why should they come out for him in the polls?
Even considering they didn’t garner sufficient support to take the primary, they are still a sizeable bloc, especially in a general and if they’re completely ignored it’ll be a huge error. Liberals when talking about conservatives: As an adult who is pragmatic, I understand the value of compromise, which is why I offered a compromise to the republicans before they even made a single demand. It's better to get 15% of what I want than nothing at all. Liberals when talking about leftists: + Show Spoiler + They hate leftists more than they hate fascists and they can't help but reveal themselves at every opportunity imo. They still see conservatives as their true enemy, but they're more frustrated with leftists because they think leftists are dragging their team down with their unrealistic ideas. From their perspective, it looks like getting rushed in a 3v3 by a team of conservatives and seeing their leftist teammates answer that with a fleet beacon. A key component of neoliberalism is the liberal being on the left, representing rationality and the status quo, versus the conservative / fascist / whatever on the right, representing change. That way they represent rationality vs the evil forces of obscurantism which obviously is a good rhetorical framework. In that sense it's true that conservatives are their main opponents but it's also who they want to have as main opponents, because that makes it so that if you value making sense, they should win. No matter how disconnected it gets from the real world consequences Zambrah describes, let alone the camps Obama built, to their further degradation/expansion under Trump (after nominating Hillary), people trapped in prison making hand sanitizer they aren't even allowed access to, or all the rest. lesser evilism with neoliberalism as the rational left bound has no mechanism to stop a descent into fascistic dictatorships. Other than perhaps corporate fiefdoms run by benevolent boards
The idea that there is some descent into 'dictatorial fascism' is peak Millenarianism. There is no such thing. Trump is just an idiotic populist, I mean you can have a sort of fantasy where you're on the just side of history and you're battling the evil hordes of fascism with your comrades or whatever but it's better you put the lord of the rings away and come down to earth again.
It's not like the US is actually going to disintegrate no matter how many left-wing podcast hosts repeat it and then the left will rise out of the ashes or whatever. (if your ideology requires the world to end to be realistic you might have a problem, disaster socialism has a bad track record).
I mean you can go on about mass movements and how everyone will see the light but this is basically how you end up like Bernie whose primary contribution as a legislator is renaming post offices for 50 years. What's actually going to happen is if the Democratic side of the US spectrum doesn't come together it's just going to be conservative rule for the next decades. No end of the world and utopia afterwards, just more right-wing politics.
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United States24686 Posts
On April 09 2020 08:09 Zambrah wrote:
I'm bouncing between multiple things so this may be disjointed but,
You say we vote for candidates not parties, but I'm being told to vote for parties, I'm going to vote third party, probably green, because the green party candidate typically aligns more with my beliefs and Biden nor Trump are good enough to move me away from that. I know its basically like not voting, but I am voting for a candidate and not the party in this context, whereas people would really want me to just vote party line because the other party is so bad. I generally would prefer people who are not voting for Biden or Trump to vote third party over leaving the box blank, although I'd prefer people leave the box blank over not submit a ballot at all. Regarding the bold text, I don't care what somebody told you. If you choose to vote for a democrat, you aren't voting for that democrat to reward democratic party leadership or whoever it is that used a dumb argument to vote blue no matter what
I sincerely don't think theres anyone to be won over to progressivism that doesn't already agree with progressivism. I dont think the issue is winning people over, I think its dispelling the illusions that I believe keep people away from voting progressive. You just seriously contradicted yourself. Dispelling illusions keeping people away from voting progressive is a big part of helping win people over to progressivism.
I think a lot of that right now is "electibility," the idea that progressives CANT win and only conservatives can win, so we all have to vote conservative or the more conservatives will win.
Maybe if conservatives lose people will stop seeing conservatism as the only way to win elections. Well in this case, if Biden loses to Trump, that won't show that conservatives can't win and we should bring a progressive to the general election, it will show that Trump's style of politics is what works in the U.S. Is that what you want? I know you don't want Biden's style of politics to be shown as what works either, but again, isn't one much worse than the other in the short term?
As for my personal life, I've gotten more republican-esque working class types to be interested in progressivism than I have upper middle class Democrats. Those types are comfortable, they're HAPPY to wait things out because their lives are comfortable and they don't feel any of the strain that people in my economic strata feel. This is all just anecdotal so it doesn't mean much, but this is why I don't really place a premium on trying to make progressivism appealing to the left-leaning people I know (most of them are quite well off.) This is a good point that some people are really put at an advantage in the current system, and that doesn't mean none of them can be convinced of the need for change, but certainly it's more efficient to focus on other groups of people, which greatly outnumber the ones you are talking about.
And I can't just blankly vote for sex offenders without some hope, I can't hear the words "we'll figure something out" and not really, really, REALLY need something more than that. I have a plan that I think might work, I need something, actually something, to avert from it when the alternative to my plan is, right now, approximately nothing. It's clear you are barely reading what I'm writing at this point. How many times do I have to tell you to stop attributing those words to me?
Incidentally I'm burned out on being tired of the republicans. They did it, I officially can't bring myself to be anything but resigned to their shittiness, its like staring into a black hole, all light disappears into it and nothing can escape it's grasp. Its more frustrating for me to see Democrats be shitty because I hope they'd be better, whereas the current batch of Republicans is going to be the way it is until Mitch McConnell is dead in the ground. Maybe when the conservative Democrats start dying off we can have a party that advocates for real change and makes an effort to make that change happen, but hell, if Buttigieg is any indication I'm sure we'll just have our next younger batch of corporate stooges to shill for their masters while making sure to fuck over people like me as best they can.
So you admit you are part of the problem.
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On April 09 2020 08:42 Nyxisto wrote:Show nested quote +On April 09 2020 07:24 GreenHorizons wrote:On April 09 2020 07:14 Nebuchad wrote:On April 09 2020 06:58 Sent. wrote:On April 09 2020 06:48 GreenHorizons wrote:On April 09 2020 06:45 Nebuchad wrote:On April 09 2020 06:26 Wombat_NI wrote:
Unless Biden throws bones to the Sanders crowd or those of a progressive ilk, then why should they come out for him in the polls?
Even considering they didn’t garner sufficient support to take the primary, they are still a sizeable bloc, especially in a general and if they’re completely ignored it’ll be a huge error. Liberals when talking about conservatives: As an adult who is pragmatic, I understand the value of compromise, which is why I offered a compromise to the republicans before they even made a single demand. It's better to get 15% of what I want than nothing at all. Liberals when talking about leftists: + Show Spoiler + They hate leftists more than they hate fascists and they can't help but reveal themselves at every opportunity imo. They still see conservatives as their true enemy, but they're more frustrated with leftists because they think leftists are dragging their team down with their unrealistic ideas. From their perspective, it looks like getting rushed in a 3v3 by a team of conservatives and seeing their leftist teammates answer that with a fleet beacon. A key component of neoliberalism is the liberal being on the left, representing rationality and the status quo, versus the conservative / fascist / whatever on the right, representing change. That way they represent rationality vs the evil forces of obscurantism which obviously is a good rhetorical framework. In that sense it's true that conservatives are their main opponents but it's also who they want to have as main opponents, because that makes it so that if you value making sense, they should win. No matter how disconnected it gets from the real world consequences Zambrah describes, let alone the camps Obama built, to their further degradation/expansion under Trump (after nominating Hillary), people trapped in prison making hand sanitizer they aren't even allowed access to, or all the rest. lesser evilism with neoliberalism as the rational left bound has no mechanism to stop a descent into fascistic dictatorships. Other than perhaps corporate fiefdoms run by benevolent boards The idea that there is some descent into 'dictatorial fascism' is peak Millenarianism. There is no such thing. Trump is just an idiotic populist, + Show Spoiler +I mean you can have a sort of fantasy where you're on the just side of history and you're battling the evil hordes of fascism with your comrades or whatever but it's better you put the lord of the rings away and come down to earth again. It's not like the US is actually going to disintegrate + Show Spoiler +no matter how many left-wing podcast hosts repeat it and then the left will rise out of the ashes or whatever. (if your ideology requires the world to end to be realistic you might have a problem, disaster socialism has a bad track record).
I mean you can go on about mass movements and how everyone will see the light but this is basically how you end up like Bernie whose primary contribution as a legislator is renaming post offices for 50 years. What's actually going to happen is if the Democratic side of the US spectrum doesn't come together it's just going to be conservative rule for the next decades. No end of the world and utopia afterwards, just more right-wing politics.
Feel like Democrats trying and failing to impeach Trump for criminally leveraging national security and foreign policy to undermine the legitimacy of the 2020 election with the implicit assumption he already collaborated with a foreign power (wittingly or not) to undermine the popular democratic will of the nation in the 2016 election takes a dump all over your argument personally.
Also the abysmal way the US is handling this pandemic is dispelling a lot of myths people held about US supremacy.
+ Show Spoiler +
EDIT: One of the main arguments in favor of Biden is that without him Trump will stack the court, the threat there is that they will impose outcomes inconsistent with the law.
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Norway28672 Posts
On April 09 2020 06:58 Sent. wrote:Show nested quote +On April 09 2020 06:48 GreenHorizons wrote:On April 09 2020 06:45 Nebuchad wrote:On April 09 2020 06:26 Wombat_NI wrote:
Unless Biden throws bones to the Sanders crowd or those of a progressive ilk, then why should they come out for him in the polls?
Even considering they didn’t garner sufficient support to take the primary, they are still a sizeable bloc, especially in a general and if they’re completely ignored it’ll be a huge error. Liberals when talking about conservatives: As an adult who is pragmatic, I understand the value of compromise, which is why I offered a compromise to the republicans before they even made a single demand. It's better to get 15% of what I want than nothing at all. Liberals when talking about leftists: + Show Spoiler + They hate leftists more than they hate fascists and they can't help but reveal themselves at every opportunity imo. They still see conservatives as their true enemy, but they're more frustrated with leftists because they think leftists are dragging their team down with their unrealistic ideas. From their perspective, it looks like getting rushed in a 3v3 by a team of conservatives and seeing their leftist teammates answer that with a fleet beacon.
I think this is a very good analogy, actually.
Liberals overwhelmingly use significantly worse words for Trump than they use for Sanders. But they do seem very frustrated (and willing to insult) his most vocal supporters. Which is dumb - of all the things one could learn from Hillary's campaign, not insulting your potential voters should have been part of it.
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On April 09 2020 07:09 Emnjay808 wrote:
Holy shit this thread the past few pages...
A small thought came to my mind: since we count by electoral votes and my state is overwhelming, dominantly voting blue. Does that mean I shouldn’t even bother to show up to polls if I want to support trump.
Nah, that just means that your vote is worthless. Like most of the voters votes in the US. If you are in a red or blue state, your vote is worthless. If you are in a purple state, the value of your vote depends on how large that state is. The larger, the less your vote is worth.
And if you would like to vote for something besides conservatives and whatever republicans are nowadays (I honestly don't know how to describe their politics at this point), you just can't.
So very few voters actually matter, and can decide if you go for conservatives or republicans. If you would like some left-wing politics, you need to emigrate to another country.
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On April 09 2020 07:05 Belisarius wrote:Show nested quote +On April 09 2020 05:26 ChristianS wrote:Jesus this thread went off a cliff since I got to work. On April 09 2020 05:19 TheTenthDoc wrote:On April 09 2020 04:08 Zambrah wrote:On April 09 2020 04:02 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On April 09 2020 03:49 Zambrah wrote:On April 09 2020 03:45 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On April 09 2020 03:37 Zambrah wrote:On April 09 2020 03:00 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On April 09 2020 02:22 Zambrah wrote:
Maybe if Trump wins the DNC will stop shoving their shit sandwich centrist crown prince(ss) at us.
Ha, nah, they'll keep doing it, anyone want to start a really early pool on who they force through as the nominee for 2024? Think Booker has a shot? Think they'll aim for a Buttigieg? Or will they try and get the woman angle going with Klobuchar again? What do you mean by "shoving" and "force"? With the possible exception of the Iowa caucus being super shady (which didn't help Biden anyway), Biden pretty much won this primary fair and square. Superdelegates didn't play a role in it, like can be argued in the 2016 primary. I'm a progressive and a Bernie supporter, but my team lost this time around. Definitively. My team had fewer supporters and fewer voters. I won't argue that more people voted for Biden, but I think its really clear that the DNC does not want progressive candidates and will do what they can (like all of the moderates dropping out to support Biden despite them having no reason to do so other than to consolidate around a moderate, not like Buttigieg's campaign was hopeless) to prevent progressives from holding any sway over the party. I'm not alleging intentional foul play, to be clear. Understood. I agree with you that the DNC does not want progressive candidates, although I do think that the writing was on the wall pretty early (before Super Tuesday) for every other moderate candidate becoming irrelevant in the Democratic primary. While Buttigieg performed well in Iowa and NH, it had been already established that he had virtually no non-white support; it was all but predestined that this was going to be Sanders vs. Biden, and that if the moderates wanted one of their own to win, the best strategy was to not pull from Biden's voter base. It's frustrating, but I'm not particularly surprised that the DNC keeps fielding moderates because 1. The DNC is mostly moderate and 2. The Democratic party is mostly moderate. I'd argue the Democrats are mostly conservative, but yes, I think this was always going to be Bernie vs. WhoeverTheDNCDecided EDIT: I also want to offhandedly bitch that a state like SOUTH CAROLINA that will definitely vote Republican is weighed so highly, lol. America's system just kind of sucks as a whole though, I guess. Oh, definitely... American moderates are really conservatives in most other first-world countries afaik. And I don't know if there's a better setup for the primary than that. Any ideas? We should be honest with ourselves, examine which states have swung between red and blue within the last twenty years, and exclude any states that haven't. While I agree that's the pragmatic approach, it's also a virtually guaranteed neoliberal Democratic candidate for eternity. The purple primaries were not kind to Sanders this cycle (those margins in Michigan, North Carolina, and Florida...oof) nor are they kind to progressives in general. His "rust belt support" just failed to materialize-people in that area just really hated Clinton for (sometimes good) reasons. I think this approach (weighting states more heavily in the primary if they were close in the last general election) is interesting, but how do you deal with the weird gamesmanship it will create in the general? If a bunch of Californians decide they’re going to vote Republican to give their state more weight in the next primary, it undermines the purpose of the weighting system, and might even create wonky outcomes where very blue states accidentally go red trying to get more voice in future primaries. I don't see gamesmanship itself as a big issue, the US is already open to stuff like republicans voting in the dem primary and relatively few people do it. It would likely cause a more honest shift to the centre, by feeding an obvious narrative that the party doesn't care about its most dedicated supporters. There would be opportunities for centre-Republicans to step in and go "but we totally do!" To me the simplest thing to would be to order primaries by swing, so Florida etc go first. The race always gyrates wildly on the first results. If those results are directly relevant to the general they'll be amplified, and it avoids having to outright tell california that they can't vote. States legislating their own primary dates would be a pretty big issue, of course, but if we're talking about abolishing the CA primary altogether we're already in fairyland.
That’s fair, we usually don’t see a lot of Republicans voting in the Dem primary, which would be a much more obvious game to play. I guess I’m just paranoid having seen the start of CA’s “jungle primary” system. I thought it sounded pretty reasonable when it was proposed, but in practice it’s created the craziest, gamiest system.
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I generally would prefer people who are not voting for Biden or Trump to vote third party over leaving the box blank, although I'd prefer people leave the box blank over not submit a ballot at all. Regarding the bold text, I don't care what somebody told you. If you choose to vote for a democrat, you aren't voting for that democrat to reward democratic party leadership or whoever it is that used a dumb argument to vote blue no matter what
+ Show Spoiler +People in this thread frequently advocate for not voting for the candidate and instead voting for the party, else there wouldnt be such push back against voting third party. At the end of the day we both know that voting Third Party is effectively voting for noone which is effectively voting for the winner because our system is garbage. The prevailing pressure is vote party over candidate, its the prevailing everything in modern American politics. I don't understand your logic here when it comes to this party/candidate separation because they're the same thing. A vote for Joe Biden is a vote for the Democratic Party. And the problem is that if you vote for him then you are saying, "yes, DNC, I will in fact vote blue no matter who, so next time don't feel too shy about putting up another Joe Biden or Hillary Clinton because I will definitely vote for them at the end of the day." You have one of two messages to send in a battle of Team 1 vs. Team 2, and its "I will not vote for Team 1/2 for some reason," theres no nuance youre sending in this context because nuance is stripped away when theres an effective binary.
I recognize I am effectively screaming into a void by voting third party, but I am a registered Democrat and if they learn anything from my vote its that it won't go to their team if they keep this shit up.
You just seriously contradicted yourself. Dispelling illusions keeping people away from voting progressive is a big part of helping win people over to progressivism.
+ Show Spoiler +No, I did not contradict myself, these people already AGREE with progressivism, they already agree with universal healthcare, expanded social safety nets, etc. these people don't need to agree with progressivism, they need to feel safe VOTING progressive. There is a difference. Its why seeing progressives lose is so fucking irritating, progressives are the ones advocating for things most of the country agrees it wants, and yet people don't vote for them. Either they don't want the things they say the want, or they're afraid noone will elect a progressive. Again, don't need to win anyone over, people are already apparently progressive, the problem is convincing them its safe to vote for a progressive.
Again, theres no winning people over, people mostly look at a list of progressive policies, agree that they're good, and then proceed to either not vote for them, or vote for them. Overwhelmingly they don't, but the key point is they're already in the progressive realm, they just need to vote that way.
Well in this case, if Biden loses to Trump, that won't show that conservatives can't win and we should bring a progressive to the general election, it will show that Trump's style of politics is what works in the U.S. Is that what you want? I know you don't want Biden's style of politics to be shown as what works either, but again, isn't one much worse than the other in the short term?
+ Show Spoiler +I disagree, I think Hillary lose into Biden lose would establish that "these shitty old white corporate stooges aren't what the country seems to want. If milquetoast conservative cant beat TRUMP how will it beat the next garden variety Republican afterwards? This is the bare assed minimum you can ask of a candidate, beating a foot-in-mouth, serial raping, military insulting man child, if you lose to Trump you've done so because you're doing something truly and spectacularly unpopular.
And no, I really don't see Biden as being all that different from Trump. His political career revolves around compromising with Republicans, and in a world where Mitch McConnell exists, that really only means acquiescing to Republican demands without gaining anything and then probably bragging about how much Republican stuff you got done as a Democrat. I don't expect he will do anything positive for healthcare, I don't expect he will do anything positive for civil rights, I don't expect he will do anything positive about voter disenfranchisement, or money in politics, or the shit house economy, shit house wages, shit house debt issues,I don't think he'll shut down the concentration camps. Fucking hell, he's so cognitively impaired Im not even sure we'll regain any standing on the world stage!
I'm sorry but precisely nothing about Joe Biden says anything positive to me. Bernie had a life of consistent repping for things I believe in, when I went and looked back at Joe Biden's history I was extremely distressed at what he voted for and what he bragged about doing. He can say whatever he wants, politicians lie all of the time, and hes so out of it that Im not sure he knows what hes saying, his words just don't mean anything, his actions speak way louder.
This is a good point that some people are really put at an advantage in the current system, and that doesn't mean none of them can be convinced of the need for change, but certainly it's more efficient to focus on other groups of people, which greatly outnumber the ones you are talking about.
This just hasn't been something that seems feasible, because I'd have to go and make friends with like seven states, the people I know who aren't in those states have votes that don't matter, so changing their minds doesn't matter. Do you see why changing minds doesn't feel appealing? You have to change people's minds who live in a swing state, and who are willing to change their mind. Virginia has been a bastion of Bidenhood from who I've talked to here (or Trump hood when I have to misfortune of having to drive to Culpeper) and I don't know anybody who lives in Michigan, or any other swing state. The pool of people who this would work for is just too small because our system is garbage.
It's clear you are barely reading what I'm writing at this point. How many times do I have to tell you to stop attributing those words to me?
"Like I said originally, the collective "we" need to work on that problem that nearly half of the population supports a Trump-like candidate, and a chunk of the remainder doesn't see what's wrong with the democratic party right now (as well as a 2 party system, but that's another matter)." those were your words, my issue with this mindset is that the collective "we" clearly doesn't put a lot of stock into solving this issue, if this primary is any indication we are exclusively focused on moving past Trump without learning a single thing about the last ten-ish years we've been dealing with the lunatic. I'm fully aware that you don't have all of the answer, I'd argue that you, like the rest of us, have no real answers! We havent made any real effort to figure out any answers of Why Trump, How to Stop Trump in the Future, or Why We Fucking Lost to Fucking Trump Good God We LOST TO TRUMP. We're all so worried about just putting him behind us that we seem prepared to make the same sort of mistakes that have landed up with him to begin with. We're not working on it, we have no intention of working on it, so we're going to eat these erosion of norms and standards and pretend like everything is back to normal when Biden is president?
So you admit you are part of the problem.
No, I'd argue you are part of the problem as someone who encourages the propagation of shitty candidates by voting blue no matter who. Keep holding the blue team's candidate to the same non existent standards as the red team's, after all, we have nowhere to go but up from senile, old, white, conservative sex offenders right? We can't possibly do worse! I'm sure next time it'll be better, we might even upgrade to a mentally aware old white conservative sex offender that people have to vote for cause the red old white conservative sex offender is standing on the other side.
Or maybe next time we'll get a Jeffrey Epstein. Maybe we'll get a competent Trump, an actual fascist. Because why not? If they're blue then evidently we have to bite that bullet and vote for 'em. That mentality is clearly a race to the bottom, We went from Obama/Romney/McCain (all flawed but at least sane human beings) to Hillary/Trump (a sex offending narcissist and old white conservative and one of the most deeply unpopular candidates probably ever) to Trump/Biden (two sex offending ol white conservatives) I voted for Hillary last time, but that was it, I'm done with voting for Hillary Clintons. It's been going down hill, and I expect it'll keep going down hill as long as the parties know they can win while they let it happen.[/QUOTE]
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Northern Ireland25405 Posts
On April 09 2020 09:01 Liquid`Drone wrote:Show nested quote +On April 09 2020 06:58 Sent. wrote:On April 09 2020 06:48 GreenHorizons wrote:On April 09 2020 06:45 Nebuchad wrote:On April 09 2020 06:26 Wombat_NI wrote:
Unless Biden throws bones to the Sanders crowd or those of a progressive ilk, then why should they come out for him in the polls?
Even considering they didn’t garner sufficient support to take the primary, they are still a sizeable bloc, especially in a general and if they’re completely ignored it’ll be a huge error. Liberals when talking about conservatives: As an adult who is pragmatic, I understand the value of compromise, which is why I offered a compromise to the republicans before they even made a single demand. It's better to get 15% of what I want than nothing at all. Liberals when talking about leftists: + Show Spoiler + They hate leftists more than they hate fascists and they can't help but reveal themselves at every opportunity imo. They still see conservatives as their true enemy, but they're more frustrated with leftists because they think leftists are dragging their team down with their unrealistic ideas. From their perspective, it looks like getting rushed in a 3v3 by a team of conservatives and seeing their leftist teammates answer that with a fleet beacon. I think this is a very good analogy, actually. Liberals overwhelmingly use significantly worse words for Trump than they use for Sanders. But they do seem very frustrated (and willing to insult) his most vocal supporters. Which is dumb - of all the things one could learn from Hillary's campaign, not insulting your potential voters should have been part of it.
They seemingly don’t learn so why vote for them because Trump is a bit worse, if at all?
I think Trump IS worse don’t get me wrong, but not everyone votes (or doesn’t) on the totality of things, it can be policies that directly impact them that will drive folks to the polls.
It seems to be this pattern the centre-left are doomed to repeat and it’s beyond frustrating. Brexit was framed in this way too, in the negative sense, or badly framed in terms of benefits. A combination of ‘racists want it’ and ‘macroeconomic benefits’ were not good selling points to stay in pragmatically. ‘Here’s how the EU benefits YOU’ on the other hand, yeah sure.
To throw a crude analogy I don’t get that girl I’ve had a crush on for ages by just constantly telling her how shit everyone else is, I need to bring something myself to the table.
‘I’m not Trump’ is that kind of thing. People will vote against you if they hate you already, they won’t vote for somebody else whose message is ‘hate that guy’ if they’re on the fence.
Best case scenario imo is Biden adopts more Sanderesque polices when it comes to the general. Nothing too crazy as I don’t think he can plausibly wear a full progressive platform, nor wear it well but some sensible parts of it.
Corona is messing up the calculus but I don’t think he loses if he can hold it together in the public persona sense. Biden as he sits now I think he loses tbh but such things are very much up in the air.
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Northern Ireland25405 Posts
As an aside, who knows how such things actually work. Running a narrative as ‘he’s electable’ surely has some distorting effect on the primaries no?
I know multiple people who didn’t vote on Brexit day in the inverse situation where they thought it was a done deal we’d stay in and only didn’t vote for that reason.
Added to that how huge momentum is in the primary process and the important of Super Tuesday especially.
High chance Biden could still have pulled it off anyway, but between the DNC itself and large chunks of the commentary at it never felt a particularly fair fight.
Sanders numbers in polling with a hypothetical showdown with Trump were as solid and at times exceeded Biden’s for consistent periods of time but yet the narrative is continually Biden is electable.
But hey time will tell how this all pans out.
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