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On April 09 2020 12:44 Liquid`Drone wrote:
even if people believe that biden as a candidate and person is equally bad to trump and thus that it makes no difference, do these people also believe that president biden would nominate an equally bad replacement for RBG as trump would?
Is 'Yeah Biden sucks but THE SUPREME COURT' going to be enough to get the minority and youth vote out in November? When the youth vote didn't even get out for Sanders this time around?.
Congratulations to Joe Biden (and the DNC) but he really is a total disaster.
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On April 09 2020 14:59 iPlaY.NettleS wrote:Show nested quote +On April 09 2020 12:44 Liquid`Drone wrote:
even if people believe that biden as a candidate and person is equally bad to trump and thus that it makes no difference, do these people also believe that president biden would nominate an equally bad replacement for RBG as trump would? Is 'Yeah Biden sucks but THE SUPREME COURT' going to be enough to get the minority and youth vote out in November? When the youth vote didn't even get out for Sanders this time around?. Congratulations to Joe Biden (and the DNC) but he really is a total disaster.
The fun part about selecting a bad front runner is that it will likely impact the other elections happening near the same time. Wouldn't surprise me if we see a Biden effect on congress/senate elections where they don't swing as much Democrat as expected.
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just saw this meme circulating on the internet, and I think that's quite an important issue nobody here has addressed yet. All other issues aside the border and immigration is something that the American president has quite a lot of influence over.
Not really sure how the rights of millions of immigrants are negligible. But really it's only one issue on a long list of completely vital issues that Biden and Trump have nothing in common over.
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Putting any type of equivalency between Biden and Trump is beyond ridiculus. They have dramatically different policies and most importantly of all Biden wont gut the federal government and fill it with incompitent stooges. Are some of you already forgetting how badly the coronavirus has been handled and is still actively being Handled? Do you really think Biden would try to shit on the states and basically leave them to twist in the wind for a month? Get real.
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I’ll vote for Biden begrudgingly and I think he will win.
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On April 09 2020 17:03 Nyxisto wrote:just saw this meme circulating on the internet, and I think that's quite an important issue nobody here has addressed yet. All other issues aside the border and immigration is something that the American president has quite a lot of influence over. Not really sure how the rights of millions of immigrants are negligible. But really it's only one issue on a long list of completely vital issues that Biden and Trump have nothing in common over.
Can you trust Joe Biden here?
In the 90s he towed the Democratic line of being tough on immigration and made some important votes to restrict immigration. Then he was part of the Obama administration which was one of the toughest administrations on immigrants, even if it was then surpassed by Trump.
False equivalency is also a strawman, not voting for Biden isn't because he's the same as Trump, it's because he returns us to the exact conditions that let Trump win in the first place. Except now you have a whole host of smarter and more extreme people who will use the same playbook with a much more frightening result.
For all the rhetoric that Joe's team puts on his website you can't ignore the things that Joe Biden actually says.
Always remember, "Nothing will fundamentally change"
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On April 09 2020 14:59 iPlaY.NettleS wrote:Show nested quote +On April 09 2020 12:44 Liquid`Drone wrote:
even if people believe that biden as a candidate and person is equally bad to trump and thus that it makes no difference, do these people also believe that president biden would nominate an equally bad replacement for RBG as trump would? Is 'Yeah Biden sucks but THE SUPREME COURT' going to be enough to get the minority and youth vote out in November? When the youth vote didn't even get out for Sanders this time around?. Congratulations to Joe Biden (and the DNC) but he really is a total disaster.
One of Hillary Clinton's biggest mistakes, imo, was that she didn't spend enough time promoting her own policy ideas (and yes, she had plenty of them), because she thought it was just good enough to say "I'm not Trump". I really hope that Biden doesn't commit the same error, because Biden *also* has plenty of policy differences that distinguish him from Trump:
1. Drastically increasing the number of Americans who have health insurance, instead of decreasing;
2. Creating a path to citizenship for immigrants, instead of promoting xenophobia;
3. Supporting our veterans and military families, instead of making fun of them;
4. Strengthening unions and protections for workers, instead of restricting them;
5. Acknowledging and addressing climate change, instead of denying its existence and impact;
6. Promoting equity for LGBT+, women, and people of color, instead of promoting hate and bigotry;
7. Advocating for education and science, instead of creating fake news.
Joe Biden actually has plans for each of these things (among many others), found here: https://joebiden.com/joes-vision
I just hope he talks about them. It's about all of these things + the Supreme Court, not just the Supreme Court.
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On April 09 2020 20:24 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:Show nested quote +On April 09 2020 14:59 iPlaY.NettleS wrote:On April 09 2020 12:44 Liquid`Drone wrote:
even if people believe that biden as a candidate and person is equally bad to trump and thus that it makes no difference, do these people also believe that president biden would nominate an equally bad replacement for RBG as trump would? Is 'Yeah Biden sucks but THE SUPREME COURT' going to be enough to get the minority and youth vote out in November? When the youth vote didn't even get out for Sanders this time around?. Congratulations to Joe Biden (and the DNC) but he really is a total disaster. One of Hillary Clinton's biggest mistakes, imo, was that she didn't spend enough time promoting her own policy ideas (and yes, she had plenty of them), because she thought it was just good enough to say "I'm not Trump". I really hope that Biden doesn't commit the same error, because Biden *also* has plenty of policy differences that distinguish him from Trump: 1. Drastically increasing the number of Americans who have health insurance, instead of decreasing; 2. Creating a path to citizenship for immigrants, instead of promoting xenophobia; 3. Supporting our veterans and military families, instead of making fun of them; 4. Strengthening unions and protections for workers, instead of restricting them; 5. Acknowledging and addressing climate change, instead of denying its existence and impact; 6. Promoting equity for LGBT+, women, and people of color, instead of promoting hate and bigotry; 7. Advocating for education and science, instead of creating fake news. Joe Biden actually has plans for each of these things (among many others), found here: https://joebiden.com/joes-vision I just hope he talks about them.
He doesn't exactly have a great position to talk about these issues...
1. He said he would potentially veto medicare for all
2. He served under Obama
3. Obama admin didn't have a great record with veterans and didn't have a good time of trying to fix the VA system
4. He recently told an auto union worker he was full of shit, not a good start
5. Has yelled at climate change activists for questioning his Super Pac and its money sources
6. (credibly) Accused of sexual assault
7. Told people it was safe to vote in a pandemic
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It's pathetic that after 3 years of having to endure a president that is belligerent towards hard questions, touches women inappropriately, is unfit for office and loses coherence after 3 sentences, that the candidate democrats choose to fight against him is:
A man that is belligerent towards hard questions, touches women inappropriately, is unfit for office, but can do 6 sentences before losing coherence!
After 3 years of getting fucked over by Mitch McConnell and watching the republican party turn into a personality cult, democrats put forward a guy who wants to reach across the aisle and maybe get a republican cabinet member.
After declaring that it's never been more important for the country to defeat this current president, democrats bring forward a candidate who's best campaign strategy was to hope people didn't hear him speak too much and only see photo's of his good posture and American smile.
After enduring a toxic presidency democrats pick a candidate that responds to question about his son by calling the person who asked fat, and challenging him to a pushup contest...
Biden had nothing going for him except riding a wave of being nominated 'most electable' , which is a completely made up narrative based on nothing, yet everyone falls in line behind him. Gore, Kerry, and Hillary were also most electable and they all lost.
And yes, Biden is still infinitely better than Trump on many areas, and everyone should vote for him for sure to stop the country from rolling into authoritarianism. But it's a really pathetic effort that's he's the one to have to hedge your bets on.
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On April 09 2020 20:34 Logo wrote:Show nested quote +On April 09 2020 20:24 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On April 09 2020 14:59 iPlaY.NettleS wrote:On April 09 2020 12:44 Liquid`Drone wrote:
even if people believe that biden as a candidate and person is equally bad to trump and thus that it makes no difference, do these people also believe that president biden would nominate an equally bad replacement for RBG as trump would? Is 'Yeah Biden sucks but THE SUPREME COURT' going to be enough to get the minority and youth vote out in November? When the youth vote didn't even get out for Sanders this time around?. Congratulations to Joe Biden (and the DNC) but he really is a total disaster. One of Hillary Clinton's biggest mistakes, imo, was that she didn't spend enough time promoting her own policy ideas (and yes, she had plenty of them), because she thought it was just good enough to say "I'm not Trump". I really hope that Biden doesn't commit the same error, because Biden *also* has plenty of policy differences that distinguish him from Trump: 1. Drastically increasing the number of Americans who have health insurance, instead of decreasing; 2. Creating a path to citizenship for immigrants, instead of promoting xenophobia; 3. Supporting our veterans and military families, instead of making fun of them; 4. Strengthening unions and protections for workers, instead of restricting them; 5. Acknowledging and addressing climate change, instead of denying its existence and impact; 6. Promoting equity for LGBT+, women, and people of color, instead of promoting hate and bigotry; 7. Advocating for education and science, instead of creating fake news. Joe Biden actually has plans for each of these things (among many others), found here: https://joebiden.com/joes-vision I just hope he talks about them. He doesn't exactly have a great position to talk about these issues... 1. He said he would potentially veto medicare for all 2. He served under Obama 3. Obama admin didn't have a great record with veterans and didn't have a good time of trying to fix the VA system 4. He recently told an auto union worker he was full of shit, not a good start 5. Has yelled at climate change activists for questioning his Super Pac and its money sources 6. (credibly) Accused of sexual assault 7. Told people it was safe to vote in a pandemic
1. M4A isn't the only way to expand healthcare.
2&3. You're right that Biden served under Obama, but keep in mind that even Obama's positions on things changed within that tenure, based on the political climate and how society had changed. It's been another 4 years and things have continued to change, with Trump bragging about painting targets on the backs of immigrants. Biden at least has a comprehensive plan for a path to citizenship.
4&5. These are totally taken out of context (e.g., "full of shit" was about guns, not about union rights), but you're certainly right that Biden needs to be able to control his tone better and not make as many gaffs. Biden has huge issues to overcome, and one of his biggest is that he loses his temper. While that's not related to the substance of his policies, it can certainly influence people.
6. Yep, and that's morally reprehensible and I wish he weren't the nominee, but that doesn't change the fact that he still has ideas for how to increase equity for LGBT+, women, black, Hispanic, and Asian communities.
7. You're right; he did. And he was absolutely wrong to make those comments. I'll still favor his policies on education over Trump's (and DeVos's) policies on education though.
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Biden telling off that Please Tread on me Me factory guy was one of the few things he's done on the trail that I actually appreciated.
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Norway28924 Posts
Yea I liked that you're full of shit exchange, that's the most Sanders Biden has been during the entire campaign. And the union worker thought it was fine, too - he still had political disagreements with Biden, but he had no issues with how he had phrased himself.
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On April 09 2020 20:46 FueledUpAndReadyToGo wrote:It's pathetic that after 3 years of having to endure a president that is belligerent towards hard questions, touches women inappropriately, is unfit for office and loses coherence after 3 sentences, that the candidate democrats choose to fight against him is: A man that is belligerent towards hard questions, touches women inappropriately, is unfit for office, but can do 6 sentences before losing coherence! After 3 years of getting fucked over by Mitch McConnell and watching the republican party turn into a personality cult, democrats put forward a guy who wants to reach across the aisle and maybe get a republican cabinet member. After declaring that it's never been more important for the country to defeat this current president, democrats bring forward a candidate who's best campaign strategy was to hope people didn't hear him speak too much and only see photo's of his good posture and American smile. After enduring a toxic presidency democrats pick a candidate that responds to question about his son by calling the person who asked fat, and challenging him to a pushup contest... Biden had nothing going for him except riding a wave of being nominated 'most electable' , which is a completely made up narrative based on nothing, yet everyone falls in line behind him. Gore, Kerry, and Hillary were also most electable and they all lost. And yes, Biden is still infinitely better than Trump on many areas, and everyone should vote for him for sure to stop the country from rolling into authoritarianism. But it's a really pathetic effort that's he's the one to have to hedge your bets on.
I wholeheartedly agree with everything but the last paragraph. What happens in 2024, 2028, etc when the Democrats put forward an equally unpalatable candidate? "everyone should vote for him/her for sure"?
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It also triggers me pretty hard when people say they have no idea what Joe Biden's platforms are. Like, you spend five hours a day on the internet and you've never heard of Google? So many people are willfully ignorant of the positions of the candidates... and just plain lazy. It takes like a half hour to do a reasonably deep dive into the policy ideas that a candidate has, starting at the candidates' websites that they literally created to elaborate on their positions. When the electorate doesn't want to be informed, there's not much else we can do.
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On April 09 2020 22:17 mierin wrote:Show nested quote +On April 09 2020 20:46 FueledUpAndReadyToGo wrote:It's pathetic that after 3 years of having to endure a president that is belligerent towards hard questions, touches women inappropriately, is unfit for office and loses coherence after 3 sentences, that the candidate democrats choose to fight against him is: A man that is belligerent towards hard questions, touches women inappropriately, is unfit for office, but can do 6 sentences before losing coherence! After 3 years of getting fucked over by Mitch McConnell and watching the republican party turn into a personality cult, democrats put forward a guy who wants to reach across the aisle and maybe get a republican cabinet member. After declaring that it's never been more important for the country to defeat this current president, democrats bring forward a candidate who's best campaign strategy was to hope people didn't hear him speak too much and only see photo's of his good posture and American smile. After enduring a toxic presidency democrats pick a candidate that responds to question about his son by calling the person who asked fat, and challenging him to a pushup contest... Biden had nothing going for him except riding a wave of being nominated 'most electable' , which is a completely made up narrative based on nothing, yet everyone falls in line behind him. Gore, Kerry, and Hillary were also most electable and they all lost. And yes, Biden is still infinitely better than Trump on many areas, and everyone should vote for him for sure to stop the country from rolling into authoritarianism. But it's a really pathetic effort that's he's the one to have to hedge your bets on. I wholeheartedly agree with everything but the last paragraph. What happens in 2024, 2028, etc when the Democrats put forward an equally unpalatable candidate? "everyone should vote for him/her for sure"?
The same logic can be applied against your argument though, mierin + Show Spoiler +also partially re-responding to: On April 09 2020 04:49 mierin wrote:
2024: "Vote for this moderate/right democratic candidate...think of the consequences if his Republican opponent is elected!!
2028: "Vote for this moderate/right democratic candidate...think of the consequences if his Republican opponent is elected!!"
...and so on.
Yeah, no.
In 2016, Bernie-Or-Bust voters didn't support Hillary so the Republican option won; the BOB's mindset: surely next time we'll be listened to, and win the primary!
In 2020, BOB voters aren't supporting Biden so the Republican option is likely to win; the BOB's mindset: surely next time we'll be listened to, and win the primary!
In 2024 and 2028, as the world simultaneously catches fire and falls victim to global pandemics and everything else, the BOB voters will cling to "You should have listened to us" instead of actually unifying behind more popular candidates that could actually make some progress instead of the regressive Republican options. This attempt at having the moral high ground while the country is inevitably destroyed reeks of naivety and privilege, and ignores realism and pragmatism.
The facts of the matter are that the progressive wing of the Democratic party (which I am proudly a part of) is still in the minority, and when some progressives help Republicans win, they are cutting off their nose to spite their face.
If Biden wins in 2020, or another moderate Democrat wins in 2024 or 2028, despite the blatant sabotage of some progressive voters, that will clearly signal that the progressive wing is weaker, not stronger. And the primary has demonstrated that the establishment Democrats are in a far stronger position right before this election, than the progressive wing is, because the establishment Democrats outvoted us. So, rather than whining like babies after we've lost, and refusing to honor the primary at all, maybe we should spend every waking day promoting progressive policies and hoping to gradually change minds over the years - so that we have better and better chances to win the next primaries - and then still begrudgingly vote for the candidate who actually has a chance to move the needle in our direction. The only way we're going to ever win in the future is to have more people vote for our next progressive candidate, not to throw the general election over and over again just because the establishment candidate isn't perfect. As it is right now, why the heck should any moderate voter unify behind a future progressive nominee, if we're not willing to ever unify behind them?
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On April 09 2020 12:48 Nebuchad wrote:Show nested quote +On April 09 2020 12:27 m4ini wrote:So no election Biden does not guarantee you will get the rulings you want. But it does make it a lot more likely and more important to that, it means that past battles won on women's rights, environment and so on will likely be kept.
As a guy who prefer for things to get worse so, it will burn, and the people will revolt, I could see why that would not matter. But for people who don't think that is a guarantee and think there is very little chance for something better to come out of letting it burn, it is pretty damn important.
That would require people to look over their incredibly limited horizon, instead of drowning in their sour pettiness because "their" candidate got shafted by the deep state, the corrupt, the rich, "them", aliens, fascists, lizard people and what else gets suggested. But it's somewhat habitual in the US, the best comparison can be drawn to US gun laws. Somebody makes a suggestion as to improve the situation in the US - the usual answer is "that doesn't fix it". No it doesn't. There is no solution that "fixes" everything in one go. But because it doesn't fix everything, it doesn't even get considered. Same here. Is Biden a slimy creep? Absolutely. Will he "advance the progressives" in the US? Pretty sure he won't. But what he can and probably would do is make sure that there's the potential for a more progressive president in the future who doesn't have to fight an incredibly far right stacked surpreme court. I absolutely can't (and honestly, don't want to either) understand why someone would argue that "not voting" is better than voting for Biden. It's politics, it's inherently dirty. The republicans know that (clearly). If you can't bring yourself to vote for someone who's a bit "touchy" because your inner white knight gets saddened a little, lol. You have the choice between someone who definitely will make things worse for many people (predominantly women) in the US, and someone who doesn't. You don't even need to look at the party platforms, it's a complete no-brainer. The only reason to not "do the right thing" and swallow your pride is, as mentioned, sour and childish pettiness. And it usually goes without saying, but it seems to be clarified: the "morals" that some people here discuss, at least to some degree, will prevent you from ever getting a politician that you'd be happy with. Politics are dirty, and republicans/rep-voters play the game properly, whereas DNC and "liberals" (which btw is a pretty broad term, there's quite a few self proclaimed people here that i wouldn't describe as liberal) are simply too stupid to do so. The USA is corrupt to the very core. Not just since Trump. I'd rather have someone who at least slightly aligns with my views even though it means i have to wash my hands afterwards, than having the option to watch my country go further and further down the far right rabbit hole while jerking myself and my fellow "liberals" off because we're so morally superior. No chance of convincing you (I'm not even convinced myself) but if we look a little above the horizon, voting for Biden means that the left represents the status quo in 2024 (Biden won't run twice but he'll appoint someone else that will obviously win a primary). This is a crucial moment for the left in America, with two generations in a row that are overwhelmingly more progressive than the boomers and Gen X. What was that, 70% of under 45 for Sanders over Biden?
and if they ever start voting we'll have a progressive presidential candidate. Then you'll be able to say Sanders got more votes than Biden instead of hiding behind percentages that don't matter. The boomers don't outnumber young people in this country anymore.
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Northern Ireland27478 Posts
It’s not particularly pragmatic to ignore/alienate a minority that is still pretty sizeable, or at least cultivate that perception. I can’t look into the soul of Bernie Bros but they seem to not like the game, not that they lost it.
It is early doors and Biden has yet to pick his running mate etc. As I said before throw a few bones to the progressives and make some generic comment about Bernie fighting a good campaign and hearing the concerns of those Americans too.
We’ll see how things go moving forwards. The British Labour Party seems irreparably fucked now for at least the medium term after Corbyn won multiple leadership challenges against attempted coups from the centre wing and had a left of centre commentary at doing nearly as big a number on his reign than the right equivalent.
This is not to say Corbyn wins if everyone gets in line, there were flaws and there was Brexit to contend with and how it’s changed the political landscape. But to have the party’s centrist wing not falling in line and trying to stage coups certainly didn’t bloody help and all of Labour’s new converts who were enthused about it skewing left are rather roundly pissed off.
Unity is a tricky thing over a wide coalition who believe different things, but yes the alternative at present is pretty awful so is probably the way to go.
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On April 09 2020 22:20 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:
It also triggers me pretty hard when people say they have no idea what Joe Biden's platforms are. Like, you spend five hours a day on the internet and you've never heard of Google? So many people are willfully ignorant of the positions of the candidates... and just plain lazy. It takes like a half hour to do a reasonably deep dive into the policy ideas that a candidate has, starting at the candidates' websites that they literally created to elaborate on their positions. When the electorate doesn't want to be informed, there's not much else we can do.
I think it's less that people don't know what's on his website and more that he's notorious for plagiarizing and lying (it's why he had to drop out of previous presidential runs). So people taking him at his word (or website) are behaving in a dangerously gullible way imo.
I can believe any progressive aspect of his policy about as much as I can believe he was arrested trying to visit Nelson Mandela (a story he made up and still tells). He also made up stuff about fighting for civil rights and when confronted said he worked at a pool that allowed Black people.
Also Biden was part of an administration that locked kids in cages on the border too. The Obama-Biden administration deprived those same kids of basic hygiene. No reason to believe that stops with him as president.
For Democrats wondering how Republicans could possibly support a kid caging, racist, liar that's probably a rapist, Biden is showing you Democrats can do it too.
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On April 09 2020 22:20 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:
It also triggers me pretty hard when people say they have no idea what Joe Biden's platforms are. Like, you spend five hours a day on the internet and you've never heard of Google? So many people are willfully ignorant of the positions of the candidates... and just plain lazy. It takes like a half hour to do a reasonably deep dive into the policy ideas that a candidate has, starting at the candidates' websites that they literally created to elaborate on their positions. When the electorate doesn't want to be informed, there's not much else we can do.
You don't understand. Once people have decided that they cannot vote for someone, people simply reject all of that candidates positions that they support as lies they would never implement to make themselves feel better. The internet makes that easier, not harder, because it's easier to find reasons to support that the positions are lies. That's exactly what happened with Clinton in 2016 and will happen forever.
The beautiful part is that if they do get implemented you're happy but you assume they were forced to do so by outside forces, while if they don't get implemented because of outside forces you can also be happy for being right and continue to hate the candidate.
The saving grace this time may be that nowhere near as many people hate Biden as hated Clinton.
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On April 09 2020 23:52 TheTenthDoc wrote:Show nested quote +On April 09 2020 22:20 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:
It also triggers me pretty hard when people say they have no idea what Joe Biden's platforms are. Like, you spend five hours a day on the internet and you've never heard of Google? So many people are willfully ignorant of the positions of the candidates... and just plain lazy. It takes like a half hour to do a reasonably deep dive into the policy ideas that a candidate has, starting at the candidates' websites that they literally created to elaborate on their positions. When the electorate doesn't want to be informed, there's not much else we can do. You don't understand. Once people have decided that they cannot vote for someone, people simply reject all of that candidates positions that they support as lies they would never implement to make themselves feel better. The internet makes that easier, not harder, because it's easier to find reasons to support the positions are lies. That's exactly what happened with Clinton in 2016 and will happen forever. The saving grace this time may be that nowhere near as many people hate Biden as hated Clinton.
Biden had to drop out of a previous presidential race for lying (and has been caught several times lying this campaign). Saying the people that are skeptical of his rhetoric are being irrational sounds ridiculous.
If you mean the internet makes it easy to find out he's a notorious liar I agree.
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