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United States24686 Posts
On April 09 2020 05:08 Zambrah wrote:
In your example 75% of the voting population advocates AGAINST the Jedi, and instead would prefer you to vote for Darth Vader, though collectively a lot of them agree that Darth Sidious is worse.
If I'm understanding your example, you feel like I am trying to push you to vote for Darth Vader (Biden) instead of Sidious (Trump). Do you really think that Biden is as bad as Vader? With Vader, we still dissolve our democracy and become the Empire.... it will just take a few more weeks. I'm worried your emotions are clouding your judgment here.
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Northern Ireland25396 Posts
Unless Biden throws bones to the Sanders crowd or those of a progressive ilk, then why should they come out for him in the polls?
Even considering they didn’t garner sufficient support to take the primary, they are still a sizeable bloc, especially in a general and if they’re completely ignored it’ll be a huge error.
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On April 09 2020 06:24 micronesia wrote:Show nested quote +On April 09 2020 05:08 Zambrah wrote:
In your example 75% of the voting population advocates AGAINST the Jedi, and instead would prefer you to vote for Darth Vader, though collectively a lot of them agree that Darth Sidious is worse. If I'm understanding your example, you feel like I am trying to push you to vote for Darth Vader (Biden) instead of Sidious (Trump). Do you really think that Biden is as bad as Vader? With Vader, we still dissolve our democracy and become the Empire.... it will just take a few more weeks. I'm worried your emotions are clouding your judgment here.
I think that Biden continues America's descent into corporate shithouse land, yes. I don't anticipate he'll make anything better for the average american, I think he'll favor corporate trickle down horse shit, and thats what the Empire is in my world.
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On April 09 2020 06:17 JimmiC wrote:Show nested quote +On April 09 2020 06:00 GreenHorizons wrote:On April 09 2020 05:58 JimmiC wrote:On April 09 2020 05:38 GreenHorizons wrote:On April 09 2020 05:36 JimmiC wrote:On April 09 2020 05:32 GreenHorizons wrote:On April 09 2020 05:27 JimmiC wrote:
Not voting at all is not getting on the bus by choice. Which does not tell people, I don't like the bus. It tells people you were to lazy/apathetic. Bold take on the strategy of the Montgomery bus boycott I think most would disagree with. For people that are actually not allowed on the bus I would not make that analogy. But that is what we are talking about here. People who can vote but are choosing not to because they don't like the candidate. edit: also your habit of pulling quotes of of context and replying to them is one of the many disingenuous moves you pull on the regular. Stop it. You didn't even quote anything in your response. For the record though they were allowed on the bus and chose not to get on in order to express their contempt with the system. How do you plan on making your contempt for the system known? Because simply not voting is not going to accomplish what you think, since there is a huge number who do not and have not, and the system is not changing, your countries politics are moving right not left, since less participation helps what you are supposedly against. Obviously the direct mass action part. It is literally our only hope at this point imo (I made that clear the whole primary). That sounds a whole lot less likely than voting Dem getting some small victories + Show Spoiler +such as not a hard core conservative SCJ. Since there was not enough progressives to even out vote the dem moderates let alone them and republicans.
But if you are planning some direct mass action then I think it would make sense, baring Covid, to do it before the election so that people in the Dem party will be able to see it and the non vote won't come off as apathy.
How do you plan on getting the mass part of the direct action? Send me the link when you get it arranged and if it is nonviolent I'll share with those I know North and South of the border.
One thing about direct mass action is it doesn't actually take a majority of the population to take to the streets to get change. Whether it was worker rights after the shirtwaist fire, Civil rights during segregation, or universal healthcare during a pandemic it's the handful of people willing to put it all on the line a larger group willing to stand with them and lastly the fence sitters/white moderates, and pragmatic progressives that get dragged along when society itself is threatened by continued incompetence and inaction in the face of ongoing suffering that makes change happen.
The people that don't want the mass action and instead advocate the "lesser evilism" have the process of progress backwards from my perspective.
No thanks on sharing stuff like that here, too many narcs in these parts
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Or OWS? How did that turn out?
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On April 09 2020 06:34 ZerOCoolSC2 wrote:
Or OWS? How did that turn out?
Kwark's right that class traitors are certainly more prevalent among the working class.
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It didn't get the desired result you seek. Now you brand them as traitors, even though the majority of the people there, demonstrating and those above that class, were with them. People will mobilize. People will protest. And people will fight. But if you think OWS was snuffed out due to working class betraying their own, then you don't understand what you and your kind are fighting for.
Stay healthy.
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United States24686 Posts
On April 09 2020 06:28 Zambrah wrote:Show nested quote +On April 09 2020 06:24 micronesia wrote:On April 09 2020 05:08 Zambrah wrote:
In your example 75% of the voting population advocates AGAINST the Jedi, and instead would prefer you to vote for Darth Vader, though collectively a lot of them agree that Darth Sidious is worse. If I'm understanding your example, you feel like I am trying to push you to vote for Darth Vader (Biden) instead of Sidious (Trump). Do you really think that Biden is as bad as Vader? With Vader, we still dissolve our democracy and become the Empire.... it will just take a few more weeks. I'm worried your emotions are clouding your judgment here. I think that Biden continues America's descent into corporate shithouse land, yes. I don't anticipate he'll make anything better for the average american, I think he'll favor corporate trickle down horse shit, and thats what the Empire is in my world.
It's no surprise to me that you don't consider Biden to be the long term solution to the country's problems... I don't either. The issue is, like I said, the short term ramifications of Biden's opponent winning needs to be considered as well. This post of yours is not really comparing a Trump 2020 win to a Biden 2020 win.... it's comparing a Biden 2020 win to the direction you want the country to go in. Maybe you just don't understand how bad a Trump 2020 win is, which would explain why both candidates seem nearly equivalent to you, with Trump being just a little bit worse.
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On April 09 2020 06:38 ZerOCoolSC2 wrote:
It didn't get the desired result you seek. Now you brand them as traitors, even though the majority of the people there, demonstrating and those above that class, were with them. People will mobilize. People will protest. And people will fight. But if you think OWS was snuffed out due to working class betraying their own, then you don't understand what you and your kind are fighting for.
Stay healthy.
It's not like I came up with socialist class analysis so "I" didn't brand them class traitors, but I agree with that analysis over whatever analytical framework you and several others here use.
I don't expect to agree with you on what happened to OWS.
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On April 09 2020 06:26 Wombat_NI wrote:
Unless Biden throws bones to the Sanders crowd or those of a progressive ilk, then why should they come out for him in the polls?
Even considering they didn’t garner sufficient support to take the primary, they are still a sizeable bloc, especially in a general and if they’re completely ignored it’ll be a huge error.
Liberals when talking about conservatives: As an adult who is pragmatic, I understand the value of compromise, which is why I offered a compromise to the republicans before they even made a single demand. It's better to get 15% of what I want than nothing at all.
Liberals when talking about leftists:
+ Show Spoiler +
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On April 09 2020 06:38 micronesia wrote:Show nested quote +On April 09 2020 06:28 Zambrah wrote:On April 09 2020 06:24 micronesia wrote:On April 09 2020 05:08 Zambrah wrote:
In your example 75% of the voting population advocates AGAINST the Jedi, and instead would prefer you to vote for Darth Vader, though collectively a lot of them agree that Darth Sidious is worse. If I'm understanding your example, you feel like I am trying to push you to vote for Darth Vader (Biden) instead of Sidious (Trump). Do you really think that Biden is as bad as Vader? With Vader, we still dissolve our democracy and become the Empire.... it will just take a few more weeks. I'm worried your emotions are clouding your judgment here. I think that Biden continues America's descent into corporate shithouse land, yes. I don't anticipate he'll make anything better for the average american, I think he'll favor corporate trickle down horse shit, and thats what the Empire is in my world. It's no surprise to me that you don't consider Biden to be the long term solution to the country's problems... I don't either. The issue is, like I said, the short term ramifications of Biden's opponent winning needs to be considered as well. This post of yours is not really comparing a Trump 2020 win to a Biden 2020 win.... it's comparing a Biden 2020 win to the direction you want the country to go in. Maybe you just don't understand how bad a Trump 2020 win is, which would explain why both candidates seem nearly equivalent to you, with Trump being just a little bit worse.
Long term I don't see anything positive happening from this cycle of "yeah but the other guy is bad" excusing candidates like Biden. Yes, I would take a short term hit if it meant we'd stop seeing sex offenders topping ballots. I mean, if it came down to it what are your limits?
If you had a literal child molester vs. a serial rapist do you still vote in that scenario? How bad does a candidate need to be before we start thinking of ways to get better candidates?
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On April 09 2020 05:56 GreenHorizons wrote:Show nested quote +On April 09 2020 05:52 Gahlo wrote:
If it wasn't for RGB I'd say fuck the whole election, honestly. In the unlikely scenario Biden won and RGB stepped down, there is absolutely no guarantee that Republicans would let Democrats replace her.
It's not a matter of her stepping down, it's a matter of her dying. She'd be 91 by the time the 2024 election comes up. First, I think the Democratic party probably takes the Senate if they win the presidential election, but in the even they don't, I'd rather the Republicans have to say "no" for 4 years than them forcing in another Supreme Court Justice Duffman immediately.
I'm in loss mitigation mode now.
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On April 09 2020 06:45 Nebuchad wrote:Show nested quote +On April 09 2020 06:26 Wombat_NI wrote:
Unless Biden throws bones to the Sanders crowd or those of a progressive ilk, then why should they come out for him in the polls?
Even considering they didn’t garner sufficient support to take the primary, they are still a sizeable bloc, especially in a general and if they’re completely ignored it’ll be a huge error. Liberals when talking about conservatives: As an adult who is pragmatic, I understand the value of compromise, which is why I offered a compromise to the republicans before they even made a single demand. It's better to get 15% of what I want than nothing at all. Liberals when talking about leftists: + Show Spoiler +
They hate leftists more than they hate fascists and they can't help but reveal themselves at every opportunity imo.
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On April 09 2020 06:47 Gahlo wrote:Show nested quote +On April 09 2020 05:56 GreenHorizons wrote:On April 09 2020 05:52 Gahlo wrote:
If it wasn't for RGB I'd say fuck the whole election, honestly. In the unlikely scenario Biden won and RGB stepped down, there is absolutely no guarantee that Republicans would let Democrats replace her. It's not a matter of her stepping down, it's a matter of her dying. She'd be 91 by the time the 2024 election comes up. First, I think the Democratic party probably takes the Senate if they win the presidential election, but in the even they don't, I'd rather the Republicans have to say "no" for 4 years than them forcing in another Supreme Court Justice Duffman immediately. I'm in loss mitigation mode now.
The Dems have a great shot at the Senate this cycle imo.
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On April 09 2020 06:49 farvacola wrote:Show nested quote +On April 09 2020 06:47 Gahlo wrote:On April 09 2020 05:56 GreenHorizons wrote:On April 09 2020 05:52 Gahlo wrote:
If it wasn't for RGB I'd say fuck the whole election, honestly. In the unlikely scenario Biden won and RGB stepped down, there is absolutely no guarantee that Republicans would let Democrats replace her. It's not a matter of her stepping down, it's a matter of her dying. She'd be 91 by the time the 2024 election comes up. First, I think the Democratic party probably takes the Senate if they win the presidential election, but in the even they don't, I'd rather the Republicans have to say "no" for 4 years than them forcing in another Supreme Court Justice Duffman immediately. I'm in loss mitigation mode now. The Dems have a great shot at the Senate this cycle imo.
Is there more clarity on how Covid will affect 2020, if at all?
I kind of gave up on having any predictions when the quarantines started and now I don't know where we stand at all
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United States24686 Posts
On April 09 2020 06:46 Zambrah wrote:Show nested quote +On April 09 2020 06:38 micronesia wrote:On April 09 2020 06:28 Zambrah wrote:On April 09 2020 06:24 micronesia wrote:On April 09 2020 05:08 Zambrah wrote:
In your example 75% of the voting population advocates AGAINST the Jedi, and instead would prefer you to vote for Darth Vader, though collectively a lot of them agree that Darth Sidious is worse. If I'm understanding your example, you feel like I am trying to push you to vote for Darth Vader (Biden) instead of Sidious (Trump). Do you really think that Biden is as bad as Vader? With Vader, we still dissolve our democracy and become the Empire.... it will just take a few more weeks. I'm worried your emotions are clouding your judgment here. I think that Biden continues America's descent into corporate shithouse land, yes. I don't anticipate he'll make anything better for the average american, I think he'll favor corporate trickle down horse shit, and thats what the Empire is in my world. It's no surprise to me that you don't consider Biden to be the long term solution to the country's problems... I don't either. The issue is, like I said, the short term ramifications of Biden's opponent winning needs to be considered as well. This post of yours is not really comparing a Trump 2020 win to a Biden 2020 win.... it's comparing a Biden 2020 win to the direction you want the country to go in. Maybe you just don't understand how bad a Trump 2020 win is, which would explain why both candidates seem nearly equivalent to you, with Trump being just a little bit worse. Long term I don't see anything positive happening from this cycle of "yeah but the other guy is bad" excusing candidates like Biden. Yes, I would take a short term hit if it meant we'd stop seeing sex offenders topping ballots.
Yes, that is what people need to do. They need to take a short term hit with a candidate that they don't consider good (or in some cases great), and prevent the devastation that would happen otherwise. However, as you implied, that alone won't solve the problem. We'll still have almost half of the voting population happy to continue supporting Trump or Trump-like people. The cycle will continue in the absence of additional action, for sure. Don't let me or anyone else tell you otherwise. I'm just saying, that additional action is not refusing to vote for Biden in November. Like I said originally, the collective "we" need to work on that problem that nearly half of the population supports a Trump-like candidate, and a chunk of the remainder doesn't see what's wrong with the democratic party right now (as well as a 2 party system, but that's another matter).
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On April 09 2020 06:48 GreenHorizons wrote:Show nested quote +On April 09 2020 06:45 Nebuchad wrote:On April 09 2020 06:26 Wombat_NI wrote:
Unless Biden throws bones to the Sanders crowd or those of a progressive ilk, then why should they come out for him in the polls?
Even considering they didn’t garner sufficient support to take the primary, they are still a sizeable bloc, especially in a general and if they’re completely ignored it’ll be a huge error. Liberals when talking about conservatives: As an adult who is pragmatic, I understand the value of compromise, which is why I offered a compromise to the republicans before they even made a single demand. It's better to get 15% of what I want than nothing at all. Liberals when talking about leftists: + Show Spoiler + They hate leftists more than they hate fascists and they can't help but reveal themselves at every opportunity imo.
They still see conservatives as their true enemy, but they're more frustrated with leftists because they think leftists are dragging their team down with their unrealistic ideas. From their perspective, it looks like getting rushed in a 3v3 by a team of conservatives and seeing their leftist teammates answer that with a fleet beacon.
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On April 09 2020 05:26 ChristianS wrote:Jesus this thread went off a cliff since I got to work. Show nested quote +On April 09 2020 05:19 TheTenthDoc wrote:On April 09 2020 04:08 Zambrah wrote:On April 09 2020 04:02 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On April 09 2020 03:49 Zambrah wrote:On April 09 2020 03:45 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On April 09 2020 03:37 Zambrah wrote:On April 09 2020 03:00 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On April 09 2020 02:22 Zambrah wrote:
Maybe if Trump wins the DNC will stop shoving their shit sandwich centrist crown prince(ss) at us.
Ha, nah, they'll keep doing it, anyone want to start a really early pool on who they force through as the nominee for 2024? Think Booker has a shot? Think they'll aim for a Buttigieg? Or will they try and get the woman angle going with Klobuchar again? What do you mean by "shoving" and "force"? With the possible exception of the Iowa caucus being super shady (which didn't help Biden anyway), Biden pretty much won this primary fair and square. Superdelegates didn't play a role in it, like can be argued in the 2016 primary. I'm a progressive and a Bernie supporter, but my team lost this time around. Definitively. My team had fewer supporters and fewer voters. I won't argue that more people voted for Biden, but I think its really clear that the DNC does not want progressive candidates and will do what they can (like all of the moderates dropping out to support Biden despite them having no reason to do so other than to consolidate around a moderate, not like Buttigieg's campaign was hopeless) to prevent progressives from holding any sway over the party. I'm not alleging intentional foul play, to be clear. Understood. I agree with you that the DNC does not want progressive candidates, although I do think that the writing was on the wall pretty early (before Super Tuesday) for every other moderate candidate becoming irrelevant in the Democratic primary. While Buttigieg performed well in Iowa and NH, it had been already established that he had virtually no non-white support; it was all but predestined that this was going to be Sanders vs. Biden, and that if the moderates wanted one of their own to win, the best strategy was to not pull from Biden's voter base. It's frustrating, but I'm not particularly surprised that the DNC keeps fielding moderates because 1. The DNC is mostly moderate and 2. The Democratic party is mostly moderate. I'd argue the Democrats are mostly conservative, but yes, I think this was always going to be Bernie vs. WhoeverTheDNCDecided EDIT: I also want to offhandedly bitch that a state like SOUTH CAROLINA that will definitely vote Republican is weighed so highly, lol. America's system just kind of sucks as a whole though, I guess. Oh, definitely... American moderates are really conservatives in most other first-world countries afaik. And I don't know if there's a better setup for the primary than that. Any ideas? We should be honest with ourselves, examine which states have swung between red and blue within the last twenty years, and exclude any states that haven't. While I agree that's the pragmatic approach, it's also a virtually guaranteed neoliberal Democratic candidate for eternity. The purple primaries were not kind to Sanders this cycle (those margins in Michigan, North Carolina, and Florida...oof) nor are they kind to progressives in general. His "rust belt support" just failed to materialize-people in that area just really hated Clinton for (sometimes good) reasons. I think this approach (weighting states more heavily in the primary if they were close in the last general election) is interesting, but how do you deal with the weird gamesmanship it will create in the general? If a bunch of Californians decide they’re going to vote Republican to give their state more weight in the next primary, it undermines the purpose of the weighting system, and might even create wonky outcomes where very blue states accidentally go red trying to get more voice in future primaries.
I don't see gamesmanship itself as a big issue, the US is already open to stuff like republicans voting in the dem primary and relatively few people do it. It would likely cause a more honest shift to the centre, by feeding an obvious narrative that the party doesn't care about its most dedicated supporters. There would be opportunities for centre-Republicans to step in and go "but we totally do!"
To me the simplest thing to would be to order primaries by swing, so Florida etc go first. The race always gyrates wildly on the first results. If those results are directly relevant to the general they'll be amplified, and it avoids having to outright tell california that they can't vote.
States legislating their own primary dates would be a pretty big issue, of course, but if we're talking about abolishing the CA primary altogether we're already in fairyland.
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On April 09 2020 06:41 GreenHorizons wrote:Show nested quote +On April 09 2020 06:38 ZerOCoolSC2 wrote:
It didn't get the desired result you seek. Now you brand them as traitors, even though the majority of the people there, demonstrating and those above that class, were with them. People will mobilize. People will protest. And people will fight. But if you think OWS was snuffed out due to working class betraying their own, then you don't understand what you and your kind are fighting for.
Stay healthy. It's not like I came up with socialist class analysis so "I" didn't brand them class traitors, but I agree with that analysis over whatever analytical framework you and several others here use. I don't expect to agree with you on what happened to OWS.
We won't agree on anything sense you either deflect, defer, obfuscate, or strawman most of your arguments. Every social class has a band of people who run opposite to what the majority bulk do. I'd say the majority of people who want active change to occur are way above your pay grade. You just don't trust them because they're not in your realm of influence. The poor and downtrodden are, so you prey on those people instead.
But for shits and or giggles, tell me why OWS failed? You can choose the delivery.
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On April 09 2020 06:51 Nebuchad wrote:Show nested quote +On April 09 2020 06:49 farvacola wrote:On April 09 2020 06:47 Gahlo wrote:On April 09 2020 05:56 GreenHorizons wrote:On April 09 2020 05:52 Gahlo wrote:
If it wasn't for RGB I'd say fuck the whole election, honestly. In the unlikely scenario Biden won and RGB stepped down, there is absolutely no guarantee that Republicans would let Democrats replace her. It's not a matter of her stepping down, it's a matter of her dying. She'd be 91 by the time the 2024 election comes up. First, I think the Democratic party probably takes the Senate if they win the presidential election, but in the even they don't, I'd rather the Republicans have to say "no" for 4 years than them forcing in another Supreme Court Justice Duffman immediately. I'm in loss mitigation mode now. The Dems have a great shot at the Senate this cycle imo. Is there more clarity on how Covid will affect 2020, if at all? I kind of gave up on having any predictions when the quarantines started and now I don't know where we stand at all
Covid's impact specifically is a tough call. Look to Montana, Arizona, and Kentucky Senate races for some what I'm going off of. Add in problems for Republicans like Roy Moore's candidacy in Alabama and I think there's at least a basis for optimism, if not an outright good one.
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