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On May 15 2018 01:53 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On May 15 2018 01:26 Mohdoo wrote:On May 15 2018 01:15 Liquid`Drone wrote:
Step one is to stop all international support of Israeli actions. Make them a pariah like south africa was during apartheid. Actively boycott Israeli goods, boycott artists who perform in israel, boycott sporting events taking place in israel, boycott matches against israeli teams, boycott any politician who supports their actions. Finding a lasting solution, that is truly difficult and I can't say I have one, but unless you actually want Israel to eventually cleanse and occupy all of palestine, anything short of this is enabling them.
There's validity to the argument that 'hey but to do this and be logically consistent you have to boycott china too because their treatment of tibet is just as bad', the difference is that China does not depend upon external support to behave the way Israel does. If this is what you are hoping for, you may as well hope for a meteor shower to selectively strike Israeli targets. It won't happen. If you let yourself entertain ideas where the US cuts support for Israel, you aren't being productive. You are describing the most ethical outcome, but that isn't really that hard to determine and we already know it isn't what will happen. Is it that you actually see some sort of post-zionist America? Based on what you are saying, you are just (understandably) really mad about the situation. It's not that you actually think what you describe will happen. Am I wrong? If someone asked you to place a $1,000 bet on whether what you described would happen or not, would you take that bet? Folks also need to remember there are over 4 million Palestinians in Israel. Relocation is about as realistic as the US suddenly dropping support for Israel.
4 million is huge, but not impossible. It is just a huge task. I don't think US support for Israel even compares. You are saying something really, really costly and really, really huge is the same as something impossible.
We are an amazingly resourceful and capable people. We could do it if the will was there. We can do anything. If the entire middle east, with financial support from other major world countries, all agreed to just find places for palestinians, it would happen.
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mohdoo, can you point to a nation wiling to accept those 4 million refugees? if not, then your point doesn't counter mine at all.
Israel woudln't stop the palestinians from leaving if someone would take them; because it takes the problem off their hands.
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On May 15 2018 01:56 Mohdoo wrote:Show nested quote +On May 15 2018 01:53 Plansix wrote:On May 15 2018 01:26 Mohdoo wrote:On May 15 2018 01:15 Liquid`Drone wrote:
Step one is to stop all international support of Israeli actions. Make them a pariah like south africa was during apartheid. Actively boycott Israeli goods, boycott artists who perform in israel, boycott sporting events taking place in israel, boycott matches against israeli teams, boycott any politician who supports their actions. Finding a lasting solution, that is truly difficult and I can't say I have one, but unless you actually want Israel to eventually cleanse and occupy all of palestine, anything short of this is enabling them.
There's validity to the argument that 'hey but to do this and be logically consistent you have to boycott china too because their treatment of tibet is just as bad', the difference is that China does not depend upon external support to behave the way Israel does. If this is what you are hoping for, you may as well hope for a meteor shower to selectively strike Israeli targets. It won't happen. If you let yourself entertain ideas where the US cuts support for Israel, you aren't being productive. You are describing the most ethical outcome, but that isn't really that hard to determine and we already know it isn't what will happen. Is it that you actually see some sort of post-zionist America? Based on what you are saying, you are just (understandably) really mad about the situation. It's not that you actually think what you describe will happen. Am I wrong? If someone asked you to place a $1,000 bet on whether what you described would happen or not, would you take that bet? Folks also need to remember there are over 4 million Palestinians in Israel. Relocation is about as realistic as the US suddenly dropping support for Israel. 4 million is huge, but not impossible. It is just a huge task. I don't think US support for Israel even compares. You are saying something really, really costly and really, really huge is the same as something impossible. We are an amazingly resourceful and capable people. We could do it if the will was there. We can do anything. If the entire middle east, with financial support from other major world countries, all agreed to just find places for palestinians, it would happen.
It could happen but It would be bit by bit, and even then it wouldn't help to calm down hostilities in the region, it would just shake things up a little.
Before anyone is relocated there would have to be a massive humanitarian crisis.
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On May 15 2018 01:56 Mohdoo wrote:Show nested quote +On May 15 2018 01:53 Plansix wrote:On May 15 2018 01:26 Mohdoo wrote:On May 15 2018 01:15 Liquid`Drone wrote:
Step one is to stop all international support of Israeli actions. Make them a pariah like south africa was during apartheid. Actively boycott Israeli goods, boycott artists who perform in israel, boycott sporting events taking place in israel, boycott matches against israeli teams, boycott any politician who supports their actions. Finding a lasting solution, that is truly difficult and I can't say I have one, but unless you actually want Israel to eventually cleanse and occupy all of palestine, anything short of this is enabling them.
There's validity to the argument that 'hey but to do this and be logically consistent you have to boycott china too because their treatment of tibet is just as bad', the difference is that China does not depend upon external support to behave the way Israel does. If this is what you are hoping for, you may as well hope for a meteor shower to selectively strike Israeli targets. It won't happen. If you let yourself entertain ideas where the US cuts support for Israel, you aren't being productive. You are describing the most ethical outcome, but that isn't really that hard to determine and we already know it isn't what will happen. Is it that you actually see some sort of post-zionist America? Based on what you are saying, you are just (understandably) really mad about the situation. It's not that you actually think what you describe will happen. Am I wrong? If someone asked you to place a $1,000 bet on whether what you described would happen or not, would you take that bet? Folks also need to remember there are over 4 million Palestinians in Israel. Relocation is about as realistic as the US suddenly dropping support for Israel. 4 million is huge, but not impossible. It is just a huge task. I don't think US support for Israel even compares. You are saying something really, really costly and really, really huge is the same as something impossible. We are an amazingly resourceful and capable people. We could do it if the will was there. We can do anything. If the entire middle east, with financial support from other major world countries, all agreed to just find places for palestinians, it would happen.
Israel has been trying to force them to leave for decades. They won’t. That isn’t going to change without bloodshed. And considering the current stance of refugees in the US and EU, no one is going to accept them anyways.
Also, that is almost half the population of Sweden. It isn’t a huge task. It would be the single largest relocation of a human population in modern history. Maybe all of history.
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On May 15 2018 01:56 Mohdoo wrote:Show nested quote +On May 15 2018 01:53 Plansix wrote:On May 15 2018 01:26 Mohdoo wrote:On May 15 2018 01:15 Liquid`Drone wrote:
Step one is to stop all international support of Israeli actions. Make them a pariah like south africa was during apartheid. Actively boycott Israeli goods, boycott artists who perform in israel, boycott sporting events taking place in israel, boycott matches against israeli teams, boycott any politician who supports their actions. Finding a lasting solution, that is truly difficult and I can't say I have one, but unless you actually want Israel to eventually cleanse and occupy all of palestine, anything short of this is enabling them.
There's validity to the argument that 'hey but to do this and be logically consistent you have to boycott china too because their treatment of tibet is just as bad', the difference is that China does not depend upon external support to behave the way Israel does. If this is what you are hoping for, you may as well hope for a meteor shower to selectively strike Israeli targets. It won't happen. If you let yourself entertain ideas where the US cuts support for Israel, you aren't being productive. You are describing the most ethical outcome, but that isn't really that hard to determine and we already know it isn't what will happen. Is it that you actually see some sort of post-zionist America? Based on what you are saying, you are just (understandably) really mad about the situation. It's not that you actually think what you describe will happen. Am I wrong? If someone asked you to place a $1,000 bet on whether what you described would happen or not, would you take that bet? Folks also need to remember there are over 4 million Palestinians in Israel. Relocation is about as realistic as the US suddenly dropping support for Israel. 4 million is huge, but not impossible. It is just a huge task. I don't think US support for Israel even compares. You are saying something really, really costly and really, really huge is the same as something impossible. We are an amazingly resourceful and capable people. We could do it if the will was there. We can do anything. If the entire middle east, with financial support from other major world countries, all agreed to just find places for palestinians, it would happen.
The rest of the Middle East is just as if not more unlikely to take in the Palestenians then countries isolating/boycotting Israel. Most Arab countries (the rich ones) dont even offer paths to citizenship for immigrants. I think you have profound ignorance of what the rich Arab are like. They are scum on par with Bibi, just a different kind.
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On May 15 2018 01:58 zlefin wrote:
mohdoo, can you point to a nation wiling to accept those 4 million refugees? if not, then your point doesn't counter mine at all.
Israel woudln't stop the palestinians from leaving if someone would take them; because it takes the problem off their hands.
No, I can't, because none of this is even happening yet. Is it that you really think Palestinians yelling "we give up if you can just find us a place to stay", the entire world, including the US, would just be like "ain't got time for that drama!"? This is a central issue to much of the world. A bunch of Euro countries help fund it, various middle eastern and south american countries take large chunks, and everything eventually gets worked out. This would be a global effort, not Iran being like "yeah, we'll just crank the whole thing out".
This would be more like the Iran deal than the Syrian refugee ordeal. A large, global group coordinating and negotiating.
Something being a giant, expensive mess isn't a reason to not do it. So long as there is a group of people being treated as sub-humans by an oppressive power, the situation is already terrible. It is actively bleeding. It's not like we have the luxury of just taking our time and letting it all settle out. These 34 people should not have died.
On May 15 2018 02:01 Rebs wrote:Show nested quote +On May 15 2018 01:56 Mohdoo wrote:On May 15 2018 01:53 Plansix wrote:On May 15 2018 01:26 Mohdoo wrote:On May 15 2018 01:15 Liquid`Drone wrote:
Step one is to stop all international support of Israeli actions. Make them a pariah like south africa was during apartheid. Actively boycott Israeli goods, boycott artists who perform in israel, boycott sporting events taking place in israel, boycott matches against israeli teams, boycott any politician who supports their actions. Finding a lasting solution, that is truly difficult and I can't say I have one, but unless you actually want Israel to eventually cleanse and occupy all of palestine, anything short of this is enabling them.
There's validity to the argument that 'hey but to do this and be logically consistent you have to boycott china too because their treatment of tibet is just as bad', the difference is that China does not depend upon external support to behave the way Israel does. If this is what you are hoping for, you may as well hope for a meteor shower to selectively strike Israeli targets. It won't happen. If you let yourself entertain ideas where the US cuts support for Israel, you aren't being productive. You are describing the most ethical outcome, but that isn't really that hard to determine and we already know it isn't what will happen. Is it that you actually see some sort of post-zionist America? Based on what you are saying, you are just (understandably) really mad about the situation. It's not that you actually think what you describe will happen. Am I wrong? If someone asked you to place a $1,000 bet on whether what you described would happen or not, would you take that bet? Folks also need to remember there are over 4 million Palestinians in Israel. Relocation is about as realistic as the US suddenly dropping support for Israel. 4 million is huge, but not impossible. It is just a huge task. I don't think US support for Israel even compares. You are saying something really, really costly and really, really huge is the same as something impossible. We are an amazingly resourceful and capable people. We could do it if the will was there. We can do anything. If the entire middle east, with financial support from other major world countries, all agreed to just find places for palestinians, it would happen. The rest of the Middle East is just as if not more unlikely to take in the Palestenians then countries isolating/boycotting Israel. Most Arab countries (the rich ones) dont even offer paths to citizenship for immigrants. I think you have profound ignorance of what the rich Arab are like. They are scum on par with Bibi, just a different kind.
I think you are looking at this the wrong way. I am not saying there is some open door just waiting for someone to walk in. I am saying an enormous effort needs to be made to bring all the right people to the table and work something out.
This isn't how you problem solve. You don't look at something broken and say "boy this sure is broken. Guess we can't fix it!". You look at the fact that it is broken, figure out who is needed to fix it, and start talking about what can be done.
The whole point is that the situation is broken. I get that. We can fix it if the will is there.
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As horrible as today has been, the bigger concern is the humanitarian situation in Gaza in general. Everything is on the verge of collapse. They don't have the resources for health care, sanitation, power, food in the first place, let alone with the extra wounded to care for.
How anyone justifies the current state of the blockade I'll never know.
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On May 15 2018 02:02 Mohdoo wrote:Show nested quote +On May 15 2018 01:58 zlefin wrote:
mohdoo, can you point to a nation wiling to accept those 4 million refugees? if not, then your point doesn't counter mine at all.
Israel woudln't stop the palestinians from leaving if someone would take them; because it takes the problem off their hands. No, I can't, because none of this is even happening yet. Is it that you really think Palestinians yelling "we give up if you can just find us a place to stay", the entire world, including the US, would just be like "ain't got time for that drama!"? This is a central issue to much of the world. A bunch of Euro countries help fund it, various middle eastern and south american countries take large chunks, and everything eventually gets worked out. This would be a global effort, not Iran being like "yeah, we'll just crank the whole thing out". This would be more like the Iran deal than the Syrian refugee ordeal. A large, global group coordinating and negotiating. Something being a giant, expensive mess isn't a reason to not do it. So long as there is a group of people being treated as sub-humans by an oppressive power, the situation is already terrible. It is actively bleeding. It's not like we have the luxury of just taking our time and letting it all settle out. These 34 people should not have died.
ok; you can't, so that means you don't have a solution at all, just a nonsensical dream with no chance of happening.
if the palestinians said "we give up, relocate us" the rest of the world would put in some modest efforts that help a little but fall far short of what is needed, and they would not be given a place to go.
which is easy to prove:
The syrian refugees are already not being dealt with adequately; and they are fleeing a situation FAR FAR worse than what's happening to the palestinians, AND they are more numerous.
34 people is very little when it comes to the scale of actual major humanitarian problems.
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On May 15 2018 02:02 Mohdoo wrote:
I think you are looking at this the wrong way. I am not saying there is some open door just waiting for someone to walk in. I am saying an enormous effort needs to be made to bring all the right people to the table and work something out.
This isn't how you problem solve. You don't look at something broken and say "boy this sure is broken. Guess we can't fix it!". You look at the fact that it is broken, figure out who is needed to fix it, and start talking about what can be done.
The whole point is that the situation is broken. I get that. We can fix it if the will is there.
The thing is, you're not offering to fix what is broken, you're offering a convoluted workaround so that we get to live our lives despite the fact that what is broken remains broken.
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Norway28683 Posts
Mohdoo I very, very much disagree with the idea that relocation is more plausible than international boycotts eventually leading to some degree of improvement. I think the latter is unlikely. The former is impossible. Syrian refugees were supposed to be of a temporary kind, relocate until Syria becomes livable again. Hard to argue that they were well received or that Europe/surrounding regions were able to accommodate them. You're arguing for what would be a permanent relocation from the get-go.
And yeah Nebuchad, putting the spotlight on is important. I do think there's a possibility of improvement, even if I don't think there's a possibility of a 'solution'. But it's not gonna happen without international pressure, and international pressure isn't gonna happen without grassroots involvement.
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On May 15 2018 02:08 zlefin wrote:Show nested quote +On May 15 2018 02:02 Mohdoo wrote:On May 15 2018 01:58 zlefin wrote:
mohdoo, can you point to a nation wiling to accept those 4 million refugees? if not, then your point doesn't counter mine at all.
Israel woudln't stop the palestinians from leaving if someone would take them; because it takes the problem off their hands. No, I can't, because none of this is even happening yet. Is it that you really think Palestinians yelling "we give up if you can just find us a place to stay", the entire world, including the US, would just be like "ain't got time for that drama!"? This is a central issue to much of the world. A bunch of Euro countries help fund it, various middle eastern and south american countries take large chunks, and everything eventually gets worked out. This would be a global effort, not Iran being like "yeah, we'll just crank the whole thing out". This would be more like the Iran deal than the Syrian refugee ordeal. A large, global group coordinating and negotiating. Something being a giant, expensive mess isn't a reason to not do it. So long as there is a group of people being treated as sub-humans by an oppressive power, the situation is already terrible. It is actively bleeding. It's not like we have the luxury of just taking our time and letting it all settle out. These 34 people should not have died. ok; you can't, so that means you don't have a solution at all, just a nonsensical dream with no chance of happening. if the palestinians said "we give up, relocate us" the rest of the world would put in some modest efforts that help a little but fall far short of what is needed, and they would not be given a place to go. which is easy to prove: The syrian refugees are already not being dealt with adequately; and they are fleeing a situation FAR FAR worse than what's happening to the palestinians, AND they are more numerous. 34 people is very little when it comes to the scale of actual major humanitarian problems.
52 dead and 2400 injured in one day is pretty bad actually.
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FYI. While this obviously isn't equitable with the ME violence, it is still big national news with political implications.
SCOTUS just struck down the federal sports betting ban. Vegas betting stocks down already. Curious to see how different states regulate it and how the leagues (especially NCAA) react.
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Maybe we can ship them all to Madagascar.
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On May 15 2018 02:11 Jockmcplop wrote:Show nested quote +On May 15 2018 02:08 zlefin wrote:On May 15 2018 02:02 Mohdoo wrote:On May 15 2018 01:58 zlefin wrote:
mohdoo, can you point to a nation wiling to accept those 4 million refugees? if not, then your point doesn't counter mine at all.
Israel woudln't stop the palestinians from leaving if someone would take them; because it takes the problem off their hands. No, I can't, because none of this is even happening yet. Is it that you really think Palestinians yelling "we give up if you can just find us a place to stay", the entire world, including the US, would just be like "ain't got time for that drama!"? This is a central issue to much of the world. A bunch of Euro countries help fund it, various middle eastern and south american countries take large chunks, and everything eventually gets worked out. This would be a global effort, not Iran being like "yeah, we'll just crank the whole thing out". This would be more like the Iran deal than the Syrian refugee ordeal. A large, global group coordinating and negotiating. Something being a giant, expensive mess isn't a reason to not do it. So long as there is a group of people being treated as sub-humans by an oppressive power, the situation is already terrible. It is actively bleeding. It's not like we have the luxury of just taking our time and letting it all settle out. These 34 people should not have died. ok; you can't, so that means you don't have a solution at all, just a nonsensical dream with no chance of happening. if the palestinians said "we give up, relocate us" the rest of the world would put in some modest efforts that help a little but fall far short of what is needed, and they would not be given a place to go. which is easy to prove: The syrian refugees are already not being dealt with adequately; and they are fleeing a situation FAR FAR worse than what's happening to the palestinians, AND they are more numerous. 34 people is very little when it comes to the scale of actual major humanitarian problems. 52 dead and 2400 injured in one day is pretty bad actually.
as an exceptional event, rather than a daily occurrence, and compared to the scale of major humanitarian problems, no it really isn't.
that many syrian civilians die every day as a result of the civil war; current estimates being ~100k civilian dead so far.
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On May 15 2018 02:10 Nebuchad wrote:Show nested quote +On May 15 2018 02:02 Mohdoo wrote:
I think you are looking at this the wrong way. I am not saying there is some open door just waiting for someone to walk in. I am saying an enormous effort needs to be made to bring all the right people to the table and work something out.
This isn't how you problem solve. You don't look at something broken and say "boy this sure is broken. Guess we can't fix it!". You look at the fact that it is broken, figure out who is needed to fix it, and start talking about what can be done.
The whole point is that the situation is broken. I get that. We can fix it if the will is there.
The thing is, you're not offering to fix what is broken, you're offering a convoluted workaround so that we get to live our lives despite the fact that what is broken remains broken.
I'm not claiming to have an ultimate solution. I am saying that if I was a betting man, I would bet relocation has a higher chance than the US dropping support for Israel. I see no path whatsoever to the US ever dropping support for Israel. I see a terrible, messy, global-effort-requiring relocation solution.
To me, the logic goes like this:
The US will never stop supporting Israel.
So long as Israel is supported by the US, Israel will continue to slowly pick away at Palestinians.
Therefore, the best solution is one where the US does not need to drop support for Israel. That only leaves relocation. I am not saying I can prove another approach is easy. I am saying I think I have effectively argued why assuming Israeli sympathy is not worth pursuing. We need to think of a solution that does not involve Palestinians staying where they are.
It is only through process of elimination that I say relocation is the best option. All of you guys keep telling me how my version is impossible, but your version has already been proven impossible. I am saying there needs to be another way, because the current band aid solution just prolongs the inevitible.
Edit: Also, for whatever it is worth, if I were Thanos, I would use my ethics to guide my decision and relocate Israel rather than the Palestinians. But I am not Thanos.
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On May 15 2018 02:17 Mohdoo wrote:Show nested quote +On May 15 2018 02:10 Nebuchad wrote:On May 15 2018 02:02 Mohdoo wrote:
I think you are looking at this the wrong way. I am not saying there is some open door just waiting for someone to walk in. I am saying an enormous effort needs to be made to bring all the right people to the table and work something out.
This isn't how you problem solve. You don't look at something broken and say "boy this sure is broken. Guess we can't fix it!". You look at the fact that it is broken, figure out who is needed to fix it, and start talking about what can be done.
The whole point is that the situation is broken. I get that. We can fix it if the will is there.
The thing is, you're not offering to fix what is broken, you're offering a convoluted workaround so that we get to live our lives despite the fact that what is broken remains broken. I'm not claiming to have an ultimate solution. I am saying that if I was a betting man, I would bet relocation has a higher chance than the US dropping support for Israel. I see no path whatsoever to the US ever dropping support for Israel. I see a terrible, messy, global-effort-requiring relocation solution. To me, the logic goes like this: The US will never stop supporting Israel. So long as Israel is supported by the US, Israel will continue to slowly pick away at Palestinians. Therefore, the best solution is one where the US does not need to drop support for Israel. That only leaves relocation. I am not saying I can prove another approach is easy. I am saying I think I have effectively argued why assuming Israeli sympathy is not worth pursuing. We need to think of a solution that does not involve Palestinians staying where they are. It is only through process of elimination that I say relocation is the best option. All of you guys keep telling me how my version is impossible, but your version has already been proven impossible. I am saying there needs to be another way, because the current band aid solution just prolongs the inevitible.
at any rate, the palestinians don't want to be relocated, so you can't relocate them, simple as that.
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On May 15 2018 02:02 Mohdoo wrote:Show nested quote +On May 15 2018 01:58 zlefin wrote:
mohdoo, can you point to a nation wiling to accept those 4 million refugees? if not, then your point doesn't counter mine at all.
Israel woudln't stop the palestinians from leaving if someone would take them; because it takes the problem off their hands. No, I can't, because none of this is even happening yet. Is it that you really think Palestinians yelling "we give up if you can just find us a place to stay", the entire world, including the US, would just be like "ain't got time for that drama!"? This is a central issue to much of the world. A bunch of Euro countries help fund it, various middle eastern and south american countries take large chunks, and everything eventually gets worked out. This would be a global effort, not Iran being like "yeah, we'll just crank the whole thing out". This would be more like the Iran deal than the Syrian refugee ordeal. A large, global group coordinating and negotiating. Something being a giant, expensive mess isn't a reason to not do it. So long as there is a group of people being treated as sub-humans by an oppressive power, the situation is already terrible. It is actively bleeding. It's not like we have the luxury of just taking our time and letting it all settle out. These 34 people should not have died. Show nested quote +On May 15 2018 02:01 Rebs wrote:On May 15 2018 01:56 Mohdoo wrote:On May 15 2018 01:53 Plansix wrote:On May 15 2018 01:26 Mohdoo wrote:On May 15 2018 01:15 Liquid`Drone wrote:
Step one is to stop all international support of Israeli actions. Make them a pariah like south africa was during apartheid. Actively boycott Israeli goods, boycott artists who perform in israel, boycott sporting events taking place in israel, boycott matches against israeli teams, boycott any politician who supports their actions. Finding a lasting solution, that is truly difficult and I can't say I have one, but unless you actually want Israel to eventually cleanse and occupy all of palestine, anything short of this is enabling them.
There's validity to the argument that 'hey but to do this and be logically consistent you have to boycott china too because their treatment of tibet is just as bad', the difference is that China does not depend upon external support to behave the way Israel does. If this is what you are hoping for, you may as well hope for a meteor shower to selectively strike Israeli targets. It won't happen. If you let yourself entertain ideas where the US cuts support for Israel, you aren't being productive. You are describing the most ethical outcome, but that isn't really that hard to determine and we already know it isn't what will happen. Is it that you actually see some sort of post-zionist America? Based on what you are saying, you are just (understandably) really mad about the situation. It's not that you actually think what you describe will happen. Am I wrong? If someone asked you to place a $1,000 bet on whether what you described would happen or not, would you take that bet? Folks also need to remember there are over 4 million Palestinians in Israel. Relocation is about as realistic as the US suddenly dropping support for Israel. 4 million is huge, but not impossible. It is just a huge task. I don't think US support for Israel even compares. You are saying something really, really costly and really, really huge is the same as something impossible. We are an amazingly resourceful and capable people. We could do it if the will was there. We can do anything. If the entire middle east, with financial support from other major world countries, all agreed to just find places for palestinians, it would happen. The rest of the Middle East is just as if not more unlikely to take in the Palestenians then countries isolating/boycotting Israel. Most Arab countries (the rich ones) dont even offer paths to citizenship for immigrants. I think you have profound ignorance of what the rich Arab are like. They are scum on par with Bibi, just a different kind. I think you are looking at this the wrong way. I am not saying there is some open door just waiting for someone to walk in. I am saying an enormous effort needs to be made to bring all the right people to the table and work something out. This isn't how you problem solve. You don't look at something broken and say "boy this sure is broken. Guess we can't fix it!". You look at the fact that it is broken, figure out who is needed to fix it, and start talking about what can be done. The whole point is that the situation is broken. I get that. We can fix it if the will is there.
Your kidding right ? Why is it that you believe that applying this logic to your solution and not boycotting Israel is more viable? Its clearly not. You assume that one is impossible but the other isnt because one set of pre-requisites received your stamp of possibility and the other one doesnt have it anymore.. just because...
Even if it were, the Palestinians dont want to leave. Its their home. And not only do they want to leave, they want whats taken back. And no that doesnt mean wiping Israel off the map or whatever other rubbish people seem to be coming up with.
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Also, “They should relocate” was the US’s plan for Native Americans. That isn’t a proud part of our history. And before folks cite the clear terrorist activities from the 1970s-2000s, there were more than a few Native American groups that violently resist relocation.
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On May 15 2018 02:31 Rebs wrote:Show nested quote +On May 15 2018 02:02 Mohdoo wrote:On May 15 2018 01:58 zlefin wrote:
mohdoo, can you point to a nation wiling to accept those 4 million refugees? if not, then your point doesn't counter mine at all.
Israel woudln't stop the palestinians from leaving if someone would take them; because it takes the problem off their hands. No, I can't, because none of this is even happening yet. Is it that you really think Palestinians yelling "we give up if you can just find us a place to stay", the entire world, including the US, would just be like "ain't got time for that drama!"? This is a central issue to much of the world. A bunch of Euro countries help fund it, various middle eastern and south american countries take large chunks, and everything eventually gets worked out. This would be a global effort, not Iran being like "yeah, we'll just crank the whole thing out". This would be more like the Iran deal than the Syrian refugee ordeal. A large, global group coordinating and negotiating. Something being a giant, expensive mess isn't a reason to not do it. So long as there is a group of people being treated as sub-humans by an oppressive power, the situation is already terrible. It is actively bleeding. It's not like we have the luxury of just taking our time and letting it all settle out. These 34 people should not have died. On May 15 2018 02:01 Rebs wrote:On May 15 2018 01:56 Mohdoo wrote:On May 15 2018 01:53 Plansix wrote:On May 15 2018 01:26 Mohdoo wrote:On May 15 2018 01:15 Liquid`Drone wrote:
Step one is to stop all international support of Israeli actions. Make them a pariah like south africa was during apartheid. Actively boycott Israeli goods, boycott artists who perform in israel, boycott sporting events taking place in israel, boycott matches against israeli teams, boycott any politician who supports their actions. Finding a lasting solution, that is truly difficult and I can't say I have one, but unless you actually want Israel to eventually cleanse and occupy all of palestine, anything short of this is enabling them.
There's validity to the argument that 'hey but to do this and be logically consistent you have to boycott china too because their treatment of tibet is just as bad', the difference is that China does not depend upon external support to behave the way Israel does. If this is what you are hoping for, you may as well hope for a meteor shower to selectively strike Israeli targets. It won't happen. If you let yourself entertain ideas where the US cuts support for Israel, you aren't being productive. You are describing the most ethical outcome, but that isn't really that hard to determine and we already know it isn't what will happen. Is it that you actually see some sort of post-zionist America? Based on what you are saying, you are just (understandably) really mad about the situation. It's not that you actually think what you describe will happen. Am I wrong? If someone asked you to place a $1,000 bet on whether what you described would happen or not, would you take that bet? Folks also need to remember there are over 4 million Palestinians in Israel. Relocation is about as realistic as the US suddenly dropping support for Israel. 4 million is huge, but not impossible. It is just a huge task. I don't think US support for Israel even compares. You are saying something really, really costly and really, really huge is the same as something impossible. We are an amazingly resourceful and capable people. We could do it if the will was there. We can do anything. If the entire middle east, with financial support from other major world countries, all agreed to just find places for palestinians, it would happen. The rest of the Middle East is just as if not more unlikely to take in the Palestenians then countries isolating/boycotting Israel. Most Arab countries (the rich ones) dont even offer paths to citizenship for immigrants. I think you have profound ignorance of what the rich Arab are like. They are scum on par with Bibi, just a different kind. I think you are looking at this the wrong way. I am not saying there is some open door just waiting for someone to walk in. I am saying an enormous effort needs to be made to bring all the right people to the table and work something out. This isn't how you problem solve. You don't look at something broken and say "boy this sure is broken. Guess we can't fix it!". You look at the fact that it is broken, figure out who is needed to fix it, and start talking about what can be done. The whole point is that the situation is broken. I get that. We can fix it if the will is there. Your kidding right ? Why is it that you believe that applying this logic to your solution and not boycotting Israel is more viable? Its clearly not. You assume that one is impossible but the other isnt because one set of pre-requisites received your stamp of possibility and the other one doesnt have it anymore.. just because... Even if it were, the Palestinians dont want to leave. Its their home. And not only do they want to leave, they want whats taken back.
Assign a chance of success to this event. As I asked Drone, if someone asked you to bet on this happening in the next 5 years, would you bet $1000 on this happening? Or is this just a stubborn adherence to ethics?
And it isn't "just because". It is because the US and Israel aren't going anywhere. If your solution involves Israel giving up land, you may as well rub a lamp and hope a genie comes out.
On May 15 2018 02:34 Plansix wrote:
Also, “They should relocate” was the US’s plan for Native Americans. That isn’t a proud part of our history. And before folks cite the clear terrorist activities from the 1970s-2000s, there were more than a few Native American groups that violently resist relocation.
That is very messy. But I'll ask you this: Which is messier? That, or taking down Israel and the US through military force?
Palestinian success requires: Eliminate Israel and the US.
That's a really, really tough requirement. I'll be honest. I don't see it happening.
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On May 15 2018 02:17 Mohdoo wrote:Show nested quote +On May 15 2018 02:10 Nebuchad wrote:On May 15 2018 02:02 Mohdoo wrote:
I think you are looking at this the wrong way. I am not saying there is some open door just waiting for someone to walk in. I am saying an enormous effort needs to be made to bring all the right people to the table and work something out.
This isn't how you problem solve. You don't look at something broken and say "boy this sure is broken. Guess we can't fix it!". You look at the fact that it is broken, figure out who is needed to fix it, and start talking about what can be done.
The whole point is that the situation is broken. I get that. We can fix it if the will is there.
The thing is, you're not offering to fix what is broken, you're offering a convoluted workaround so that we get to live our lives despite the fact that what is broken remains broken. I'm not claiming to have an ultimate solution. I am saying that if I was a betting man, I would bet relocation has a higher chance than the US dropping support for Israel. I see no path whatsoever to the US ever dropping support for Israel. I see a terrible, messy, global-effort-requiring relocation solution.
It could if it had a leftwing/socialist/progressive party with actual influence. Which is excessively hard to do given the state of your country right now, but certainly doesn't deserve the label "impossible" if moving 4 million people doesn't.
Now consider this: we're trading something almost impossible for something almost impossible, so it's not like we're losing ground. And the benefits for the US in my solution aren't limited to "solving" the palestinian conflict, we address many other issues on the domestic side.
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