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Now that we have a new thread, in order to ensure that this thread continues to meet TL standards and follows the proper guidelines, we will be enforcing the rules in the OP more strictly. Be sure to give them a complete and thorough read before posting! NOTE: When providing a source, please provide a very brief summary on what it's about and what purpose it adds to the discussion. The supporting statement should clearly explain why the subject is relevant and needs to be discussed. Please follow this rule especially for tweets. Your supporting statement should always come BEFORE you provide the source. If you have any questions, comments, concern, or feedback regarding the USPMT, then please use this thread: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/website-feedback/510156-us-politics-thread | ||
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iamthedave
England2814 Posts
On May 15 2018 00:24 GreenHorizons wrote: Sure, but what then do you call the Israelis killing 37 people? Or is that the violence you're referencing? From the sound of things, 'self defense'. At least if the source I've seen is accurate. | ||
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GreenHorizons
United States22696 Posts
On May 15 2018 00:29 iamthedave wrote: From the sound of things, 'self defense'. At least if the source I've seen is accurate. So the Israeli body count must be pretty high, at least those injured, with it being upwards of 40 dead and hundreds injured on the Palestinian side? Or perhaps the excuse of "self-defense" makes about as much sense as killing your whole block because a rock came through your window. Of course this "self-defense" trash presumes the Palestinians aren't already acting in self-defense of the undeniable ethnic cleansing they are the victims of | ||
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Ryzel
United States519 Posts
1) Arguing the veracity (or lack thereof) of the various sources that are informing us on the subject. Really, everyone with an opinion should just post links to whatever sources are informing them. 2) Form opinions/judgements/arguments based on assumptions of the event that everyone in the discussion is willing to agree with (not gonna’ happen IMO). So really, just post your sources and be ready to argue their veracity. | ||
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GreenHorizons
United States22696 Posts
On May 15 2018 00:40 Ryzel wrote: This kind of arguing is pointless. None of us were there personally to know what actually happened. Let’s break it down into 2 possible arguments: 1) Arguing the veracity (or lack thereof) of the various sources that are informing us on the subject. Really, everyone with an opinion should just post links to whatever sources are informing them. 2) Form opinions/judgements/arguments based on assumptions of the event that everyone in the discussion is willing to agree with (not gonna’ happen IMO). So really, just post your sources and be ready to argue their veracity. My source was an AP correspondent but it's been widely reported that dozens of Palestinians were killed by Israeli gun fire and hundreds injured. I don't think there's even disagreement the Israel is trying to violently remove Palestinians from their land and that is ethnic cleansing. The argument (if you can call it that) is whether supporting ethnic cleansing is 'worth it' or not. | ||
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Ryzel
United States519 Posts
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Velr
Switzerland10600 Posts
Israeli injuries = zero(?). Uhm... How exactly do you defend this in any way? I guess the massacre in China (tjanjanmen place, no clue about the spelling) back in the day was also "ok". | ||
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Mohdoo
United States15398 Posts
I don't have a good idea how to solve Palestinian issues, but I feel pretty confident them staying where they are at is actually the worst case scenario for them. When a foreign power can just gun down a shit load of people and walk away, you have already lost the war. I do feel like Trump has assured Israel they can "do what they have to do". Which basically puts Palestinians on a timer. I think they are gauging reactions to this event to see how much further they can go. Also, much like how I believe NK should have just been referred to as China because NK was 100% empowered by China, I think all of this Palestinian blood is on American hands. If a president opposed to Israel's existence was elected, Israel would ceases to exist over the weekend. To me, that fact alone means any actions taken by Israel are on us. If we are the only thing keeping Israel around, and we continue to defend Israel, anything Israel does is on us. | ||
Liquid`Drone
Norway28558 Posts
Mohdoo what countries are they supposed to relocate into? I'm not sure if you realized, but most countries are kinda unwilling to take large numbers of refugees. | ||
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Mohdoo
United States15398 Posts
On May 15 2018 01:08 Liquid`Drone wrote: there is no moral defense of shooting people who throw rocks. Mohdoo what countries are they supposed to relocate into? I'm not sure if you realized, but most countries are kinda unwilling to take large numbers of refugees. I don't have a clue. But no matter how you slice it, getting shot and killed is the worst case scenario. There is nothing that could be worse than the current situation. Living in a bunch of tents scattered throughout Palestinian-sympathetic countries would be 10000000x better than dying. They are actively dying. Nothing is worse. | ||
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Liquid`Drone
Norway28558 Posts
There's validity to the argument that 'hey but to do this and be logically consistent you have to boycott china too because their treatment of tibet is just as bad', the difference is that China does not depend upon external support to behave the way Israel does. | ||
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Gorsameth
Netherlands21362 Posts
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Mohdoo
United States15398 Posts
On May 15 2018 01:15 Liquid`Drone wrote: Step one is to stop all international support of Israeli actions. Make them a pariah like south africa was during apartheid. Actively boycott Israeli goods, boycott artists who perform in israel, boycott sporting events taking place in israel, boycott matches against israeli teams, boycott any politician who supports their actions. Finding a lasting solution, that is truly difficult and I can't say I have one, but unless you actually want Israel to eventually cleanse and occupy all of palestine, anything short of this is enabling them. There's validity to the argument that 'hey but to do this and be logically consistent you have to boycott china too because their treatment of tibet is just as bad', the difference is that China does not depend upon external support to behave the way Israel does. If this is what you are hoping for, you may as well hope for a meteor shower to selectively strike Israeli targets. It won't happen. If you let yourself entertain ideas where the US cuts support for Israel, you aren't being productive. You are describing the most ethical outcome, but that isn't really that hard to determine and we already know it isn't what will happen. Is it that you actually see some sort of post-zionist America? Based on what you are saying, you are just (understandably) really mad about the situation. It's not that you actually think what you describe will happen. Am I wrong? If someone asked you to place a $1,000 bet on whether what you described would happen or not, would you take that bet? | ||
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Liquid`Drone
Norway28558 Posts
On May 15 2018 01:26 Mohdoo wrote: If this is what you are hoping for, you may as well hope for a meteor shower to selectively strike Israeli targets. It won't happen. If you let yourself entertain ideas where the US cuts support for Israel, you aren't being productive. You are describing the most ethical outcome, but that isn't really that hard to determine and we already know it isn't what will happen. Is it that you actually see some sort of post-zionist America? Based on what you are saying, you are just (understandably) really mad about the situation. It's not that you actually think what you describe will happen. Am I wrong? If someone asked you to place a $1,000 bet on whether what you described would happen or not, would you take that bet? Of course I wouldn't, and of course I don't think that's going to happen. But thinking that my solution most likely isn't going to transpire is no fucking reason for being 'okay, should just accept ethnic cleansing then'. Fighting for the oppressed and powerless is almost always a losing battle, because ability to win a conflict correlates very strongly with power and ability to oppress. But it's the only battle I can morally justify fighting, and while I am myself virtually powerless, boycotting Israel in every way is literally the only thing I can think of doing that will have even the remotest, most miniscule of effects. Norwegian politicians need to know that being on the wrong side of this conflict will mean that they will never have a chance at getting my vote. I believe if enough americans had a similar point of view, that could possibly sway american politicians' minds. I am however not at all optimistic about enough americans adopting a similar point of view, even with young americans having far more sympathetic political views than older americans. | ||
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Liquid`Drone
Norway28558 Posts
On May 15 2018 01:18 Gorsameth wrote: The notion that this will have any serious effect what so ever on international relations or support is laughable. Sadly I agree with that too. Europe is already predominantly negatively inclined. And if there's an european consensus, it's more of a 'NIMBY' sort of thing; we'd rather have palestinians living refugee-like lives in palestine than them living in Europe. And in the US, the people that used to be supportive of Israel are still supportive of Israel. There's nothing out of the ordinary about current Israeli actions, this has been their MO for what seems like decades by now. Treat the palestinian population inhumanely, some palestinians predictably respond with violence, use that violence as justification to ramp up the inhumane treatment. Remove access to water, make people spent two hours in checkpoints per day to go to and from work. Kill kids who throw rocks. Claim that you are only defending yourself while causing between 10 and 100 times as many deaths as the group you are defending yourself from. | ||
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xM(Z
Romania5276 Posts
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zlefin
United States7689 Posts
On May 15 2018 01:10 Mohdoo wrote: I don't have a clue. But no matter how you slice it, getting shot and killed is the worst case scenario. There is nothing that could be worse than the current situation. Living in a bunch of tents scattered throughout Palestinian-sympathetic countries would be 10000000x better than dying. They are actively dying. Nothing is worse. they're not actively dying as a group; a few individuals are dying, which is horrible, but has no effect on the net population scale. and there aren't palestinian sympathetic countries willing to accept them, or they'd already have gone there. | ||
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Nebuchad
Switzerland11926 Posts
On May 15 2018 01:36 Liquid`Drone wrote: And in the US, the people that used to be supportive of Israel are still supportive of Israel. There's nothing out of the ordinary about current Israeli actions, this has been their MO for what seems like decades by now. There is such a thing as a spotlight though. A lot of people weren't quite in support of Israel, they were just ready to turn a blind eye because that's a far away place and the west supports Israel so who are we to question this. It's harder to do that now, and as a result that non-commital position is less popular, and most people have a firm opinion on what Israel is doing. We're not going to change the world just by having opinions about it, especially not in the US where what citizens think isn't valued at all politically, but even then it's a start, and it's a shift. | ||
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Rebs
Pakistan10726 Posts
On May 15 2018 01:36 xM(Z wrote: Netanyahu wants war in Syria so he figures - kill a bunch of palestinians to piss of the iranians, in turn they'll do something stupid then there you have it, casus belli. Except the Iranians and really most of the adjacent arab world has no interest in supporting Palestine overtly. They are either to busy fighting their own political battles or to far in bed with the US to care. The Saudi's for example have basically been doing the same thing Israel is doing to Palestine, in Yemen. And to a large degree they arent even doing the dirty work themselves. The actual forces are imported for the most part from countries beholden to them in some way. Something ofcourse, Israel is more than happy to do. Thats also why there is literally zero moral authority or really any authority for any annexing Putin does. How can you stop him when he can just point to what you are already supporting either tacitly or otherwise. | ||
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Mohdoo
United States15398 Posts
On May 15 2018 01:35 Liquid`Drone wrote: Of course I wouldn't, and of course I don't think that's going to happen. But thinking that my solution most likely isn't going to transpire is no fucking reason for being 'okay, should just accept ethnic cleansing then'. Fighting for the oppressed and powerless is almost always a losing battle, because ability to win a conflict correlates very strongly with power and ability to oppress. But it's the only battle I can morally justify fighting, and while I am myself virtually powerless, boycotting Israel in every way is literally the only thing I can think of doing that will have even the remotest, most miniscule of effects. Norwegian politicians need to know that being on the wrong side of this conflict will mean that they will never have a chance at getting my vote. I believe if enough americans had a similar point of view, that could possibly sway american politicians' minds. I am however not at all optimistic about enough americans adopting a similar point of view, even with young americans having far more sympathetic political views than older americans. I understand your perspective of fighting for what is right. But in my eyes, that perspective, while ethically sound, ends up with a very unethical outcome. So long as the US will support Israel's escalation of force, anything Palestinians do actually ends up making things even worse. Israel is just waiting for their opportunity to finally wipe out Palestinians. It's not like there is some level of force that would eventually take down Israel. Israel is intentionally hesitating to fully wipe out Palestinians because they have other long term goals in mind. I think it is easy to make an argument that your moral perspective actually increases Palestinian suffering. By resisting relocation, more Palestinian children die. And for what? Pride? Being on the right side of history? Ethics? This is an instance where cause and effect need to be given a lot of credit and attention. I'll phrase it another way: What path do you see to Palestinians one day winning? Is it that palestinians need to tough it out, get mass murdered every so often, all to eventually win? Eventually Israel (an extremely well armed country) will be weaker? I see a lot of people support Palestinian resistance, but I've never seen someone tell me why it makes sense. Why are you so comfortable telling a bunch of Palestinian children to die for your ethics? Unless you see a path to victory, you could argue stiff ethics and pride are causing Palestinian deaths. On May 15 2018 01:50 zlefin wrote: they're not actively dying as a group; a few individuals are dying, which is horrible, but has no effect on the net population scale. and there aren't palestinian sympathetic countries willing to accept them, or they'd already have gone there. If Hamas advocated for and actively lobbied for relocation, it would happen. If the Palestinian government's official stance was "please just let us leave", it would happen. | ||
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Plansix
United States60190 Posts
There is no solution in the current geopolitical dynamic. And not with Israel's current majority party. | ||
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