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US Politics Mega-thread - Page 195

Forum Index > General Forum
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Now that we have a new thread, in order to ensure that this thread continues to meet TL standards and follows the proper guidelines, we will be enforcing the rules in the OP more strictly. Be sure to give them a complete and thorough read before posting!

NOTE: When providing a source, please provide a very brief summary on what it's about and what purpose it adds to the discussion. The supporting statement should clearly explain why the subject is relevant and needs to be discussed. Please follow this rule especially for tweets.

Your supporting statement should always come BEFORE you provide the source.


If you have any questions, comments, concern, or feedback regarding the USPMT, then please use this thread: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/website-feedback/510156-us-politics-thread
Velr
Profile Blog Joined July 2008
Switzerland10700 Posts
Last Edited: 2018-05-14 17:40:30
May 14 2018 17:39 GMT
#3881
The two state solution is dead, various politicians from all sides made sure of this. The only real remaining solution is 1 state... But good luck with that.

Israel should thank the nazis for being untouchable, as horrible this is, it shapes the international response to everything regarding this conflict.

Personally i just don't care what you are, i don't ask and don't care if you don't tell.
Liquid`Drone
Profile Joined September 2002
Norway28665 Posts
May 14 2018 17:46 GMT
#3882
mohdoo international boycotts of south african magnitude have never been attempted. My understanding is however that they were instrumental in ending apartheid. And, political opinions can be subject to change;

If you are not familiar with these events, I've copy pasted some key examples from international boycotts/protests succeeding in causing positive political and social developments from the Wikipedia page on apartheid inside this spoiler.

+ Show Spoiler +

Sporting event-boycotts

In 1959, the non-racial South African Sports Association (SASA) was formed to secure the rights of all players on the global field. After meeting with no success in its endeavours to attain credit by collaborating with white establishments, SASA approached the International Olympic Committee (IOC) in 1962, calling for South Africa's expulsion from the Olympic Games. The IOC sent South Africa a caution to the effect that, if there were no changes, they would be barred from the 1964 Olympic Games. The changes were initiated, and in January 1963, the South African Non-Racial Olympic Committee (SANROC) was set up. The Anti-Apartheid Movement persisted in its campaign for South Africa's exclusion, and the IOC acceded in barring the country from the 1964 Games in Tokyo. South Africa selected a multi-racial team for the next Games, and the IOC opted for incorporation in the 1968 Games in Mexico. Because of protests from AAMs and African nations, however, the IOC was forced to retract the invitation.

Foreign complaints about South Africa's bigoted sports brought more isolation. Racially selected New Zealand sports teams toured South Africa, until the 1970 All Blacks rugby tour allowed Maori to go under the status of "honorary whites". Huge and widespread protests occurred in New Zealand in 1981 against the Springbok tour – the government spent $8 million protecting games using the army and police force. A planned All Black tour to South Africa in 1985 remobilised the New Zealand protesters and it was cancelled. A "rebel tour" – not government sanctioned – went ahead in 1986, but after that sporting ties were cut, and New Zealand made a decision not to convey an authorised rugby team to South Africa until the end of apartheid.


Vorster replaced Verwoerd as Prime Minister in 1966 following the latter's assassination and declared that South Africa would no longer dictate to other countries what their teams should look like. Although this reopened the gate for international sporting meets, it did not signal the end of South Africa's racist sporting policies. In 1968 Vorster went against his policy by refusing to permit Basil D'Oliveira, a Coloured South African-born cricketer, to join the English cricket team on its tour to South Africa. Vorster said that the side had been chosen only to prove a point, and not on merit. After protests, however, "Dolly" was eventually included in the team. Protests against certain tours brought about the cancellation of a number of other visits, including that of an England rugby team touring South Africa in 1969/70.

The first of the "White Bans" occurred in 1971 when the Chairman of the Australian Cricketing Association – Sir Don Bradman – flew to South Africa to meet Vorster. Vorster had expected Bradman to allow the tour of the Australian cricket team to go ahead, but things became heated after Bradman asked why black sportsmen were not allowed to play cricket. Vorster stated that blacks were intellectually inferior and had no finesse for the game. Bradman – thinking this ignorant and repugnant – asked Vorster if he had heard of a man named Garry Sobers. On his return to Australia, Bradman released a one sentence statement: "We will not play them until they choose a team on a non-racist basis."[138]

In South Africa, Vorster vented his anger publicly against Bradman, while the African National Congress rejoiced. This was the first time a predominantly white nation had taken the side of multiracial sport, producing an unsettling resonance that more "White" boycotts were coming.[139] Almost twenty years later, on his release from prison, Nelson Mandela asked a visiting Australian statesman if Donald Bradman, his childhood hero, was still alive (Bradman lived until 2001).

In 1971, Vorster altered his policies even further by distinguishing multiracial from multinational sport. Multiracial sport, between teams with players of different races, remained outlawed; multinational sport, however, was now acceptable: international sides would not be subject to South Africa's racial stipulations.

In 1978, Nigeria boycotted the Commonwealth Games because New Zealand's sporting contacts with the South African government were not considered to be in accordance with the 1977 Gleneagles Agreement. Nigeria also led the 32-nation boycott of the 1986 Commonwealth Games because of British prime minister Margaret Thatcher's ambivalent attitude towards sporting links with South Africa, significantly affecting the quality and profitability of the Games and thus thrusting apartheid into the international spotlight.

Cultural boycotts
Cultural boycott
In the 1960s, the Anti-Apartheid Movements began to campaign for cultural boycotts of apartheid South Africa. Artists were requested not to present or let their works be hosted in South Africa. In 1963, 45 British writers put their signatures to an affirmation approving of the boycott, and, in 1964, American actor Marlon Brando called for a similar affirmation for films. In 1965, the Writers' Guild of Great Britain called for a proscription on the sending of films to South Africa. Over sixty American artists signed a statement against apartheid and against professional links with the state. The presentation of some South African plays in Britain and the United States was also vetoed. After the arrival of television in South Africa in 1975, the British Actors Union, Equity, boycotted the service, and no British programme concerning its associates could be sold to South Africa. Sporting and cultural boycotts did not have the same impact as economic sanctions, but they did much to lift consciousness amongst normal South Africans of the global condemnation of apartheid.

Western political influence
While international opposition to apartheid grew, the Nordic countries – and Sweden in particular – provided both moral and financial support for the ANC.[141] On 21 February 1986 – a week before he was murdered – Sweden's prime minister Olof Palme made the keynote address to the Swedish People's Parliament Against Apartheid held in Stockholm.[142] In addressing the hundreds of anti-apartheid sympathisers as well as leaders and officials from the ANC and the Anti-Apartheid Movement such as Oliver Tambo, Palme declared: "Apartheid cannot be reformed; it has to be eliminated."[143]

Other Western countries adopted a more ambivalent position. In Switzerland, the Swiss-South African Association lobbied on behalf of the South African government. In the 1980s, the US Reagan and UK Thatcher administrations followed a "constructive engagement" policy with the apartheid government, vetoing the imposition of UN economic sanctions, justified by a belief in free trade and a vision of South Africa as a bastion against Marxist forces in Southern Africa. Thatcher declared the ANC a terrorist organisation,[144] and in 1987 her spokesman, Bernard Ingham, famously said that anyone who believed that the ANC would ever form the government of South Africa was "living in cloud cuckoo land".[145] The American Legislative Exchange Council (ALEC), a conservative lobbying organisation, actively campaigned against divesting from South Africa throughout the 1980s.

(my own statement): Reagan and Thatcher supporting the apartheid regime, partially as part of cold war efforts, partially for economic benefit of american/british influences, halted the political struggle. But the ANC formed a government in 1994 - 7 years after Bernard Ingham said that anyone who believed that the ANC would ever form the government of South Africa was "living in cloud cuckoo land". I mean, it took like 35 years of varying degrees of international pressure before apartheid actually ended. It's a long, tough struggle, for sure. But I also believe that if people had the attitude of 'the black south africans should just move to namibia and zimbabwe because south africa will never accept ending apartheid', then it would never have succeeded.

Moderator
Plansix
Profile Blog Joined April 2011
United States60190 Posts
May 14 2018 17:47 GMT
#3883
On May 15 2018 02:36 Mohdoo wrote:
Show nested quote +
On May 15 2018 02:31 Rebs wrote:
On May 15 2018 02:02 Mohdoo wrote:
On May 15 2018 01:58 zlefin wrote:
mohdoo, can you point to a nation wiling to accept those 4 million refugees? if not, then your point doesn't counter mine at all.
Israel woudln't stop the palestinians from leaving if someone would take them; because it takes the problem off their hands.


No, I can't, because none of this is even happening yet. Is it that you really think Palestinians yelling "we give up if you can just find us a place to stay", the entire world, including the US, would just be like "ain't got time for that drama!"? This is a central issue to much of the world. A bunch of Euro countries help fund it, various middle eastern and south american countries take large chunks, and everything eventually gets worked out. This would be a global effort, not Iran being like "yeah, we'll just crank the whole thing out".

This would be more like the Iran deal than the Syrian refugee ordeal. A large, global group coordinating and negotiating.

Something being a giant, expensive mess isn't a reason to not do it. So long as there is a group of people being treated as sub-humans by an oppressive power, the situation is already terrible. It is actively bleeding. It's not like we have the luxury of just taking our time and letting it all settle out. These 34 people should not have died.

On May 15 2018 02:01 Rebs wrote:
On May 15 2018 01:56 Mohdoo wrote:
On May 15 2018 01:53 Plansix wrote:
On May 15 2018 01:26 Mohdoo wrote:
On May 15 2018 01:15 Liquid`Drone wrote:
Step one is to stop all international support of Israeli actions. Make them a pariah like south africa was during apartheid. Actively boycott Israeli goods, boycott artists who perform in israel, boycott sporting events taking place in israel, boycott matches against israeli teams, boycott any politician who supports their actions. Finding a lasting solution, that is truly difficult and I can't say I have one, but unless you actually want Israel to eventually cleanse and occupy all of palestine, anything short of this is enabling them.

There's validity to the argument that 'hey but to do this and be logically consistent you have to boycott china too because their treatment of tibet is just as bad', the difference is that China does not depend upon external support to behave the way Israel does.


If this is what you are hoping for, you may as well hope for a meteor shower to selectively strike Israeli targets. It won't happen. If you let yourself entertain ideas where the US cuts support for Israel, you aren't being productive. You are describing the most ethical outcome, but that isn't really that hard to determine and we already know it isn't what will happen.

Is it that you actually see some sort of post-zionist America? Based on what you are saying, you are just (understandably) really mad about the situation. It's not that you actually think what you describe will happen. Am I wrong?

If someone asked you to place a $1,000 bet on whether what you described would happen or not, would you take that bet?

Folks also need to remember there are over 4 million Palestinians in Israel. Relocation is about as realistic as the US suddenly dropping support for Israel.


4 million is huge, but not impossible. It is just a huge task. I don't think US support for Israel even compares. You are saying something really, really costly and really, really huge is the same as something impossible.

We are an amazingly resourceful and capable people. We could do it if the will was there. We can do anything. If the entire middle east, with financial support from other major world countries, all agreed to just find places for palestinians, it would happen.


The rest of the Middle East is just as if not more unlikely to take in the Palestenians then countries isolating/boycotting Israel. Most Arab countries (the rich ones) dont even offer paths to citizenship for immigrants. I think you have profound ignorance of what the rich Arab are like. They are scum on par with Bibi, just a different kind.


I think you are looking at this the wrong way. I am not saying there is some open door just waiting for someone to walk in. I am saying an enormous effort needs to be made to bring all the right people to the table and work something out.

This isn't how you problem solve. You don't look at something broken and say "boy this sure is broken. Guess we can't fix it!". You look at the fact that it is broken, figure out who is needed to fix it, and start talking about what can be done.

The whole point is that the situation is broken. I get that. We can fix it if the will is there.


Your kidding right ? Why is it that you believe that applying this logic to your solution and not boycotting Israel is more viable? Its clearly not. You assume that one is impossible but the other isnt because one set of pre-requisites received your stamp of possibility and the other one doesnt have it anymore.. just because...

Even if it were, the Palestinians dont want to leave. Its their home. And not only do they want to leave, they want whats taken back.


Assign a chance of success to this event. As I asked Drone, if someone asked you to bet on this happening in the next 5 years, would you bet $1000 on this happening? Or is this just a stubborn adherence to ethics?

And it isn't "just because". It is because the US and Israel aren't going anywhere. If your solution involves Israel giving up land, you may as well rub a lamp and hope a genie comes out.

Show nested quote +
On May 15 2018 02:34 Plansix wrote:
Also, “They should relocate” was the US’s plan for Native Americans. That isn’t a proud part of our history. And before folks cite the clear terrorist activities from the 1970s-2000s, there were more than a few Native American groups that violently resist relocation.


That is very messy. But I'll ask you this: Which is messier? That, or taking down Israel and the US through military force?

Palestinian success requires: Eliminate Israel and the US.

That's a really, really tough requirement. I'll be honest. I don't see it happening.

Your solution is the current solution. Israel is trying to make them relocate. And again, there is no place to put 4 million people.
I have the Honor to be your Obedient Servant, P.6
TL+ Member
Velr
Profile Blog Joined July 2008
Switzerland10700 Posts
May 14 2018 17:49 GMT
#3884
I hear heartland america is pretty sparseli populated..
Plansix
Profile Blog Joined April 2011
United States60190 Posts
May 14 2018 17:52 GMT
#3885
On May 15 2018 02:49 Velr wrote:
I hear heartland america is pretty sparseli populated..

You would need to spread those 4 million across like 30+ states to keep them from having a major impact on demographics.
I have the Honor to be your Obedient Servant, P.6
TL+ Member
Mohdoo
Profile Joined August 2007
United States15686 Posts
May 14 2018 17:53 GMT
#3886
On May 15 2018 02:46 Liquid`Drone wrote:
mohdoo international boycotts of south african magnitude have never been attempted. My understanding is however that they were instrumental in ending apartheid. And, political opinions can be subject to change;

If you are not familiar with these events, I've copy pasted some key examples from international boycotts/protests succeeding in causing positive political and social developments from the Wikipedia page on apartheid inside this spoiler.

+ Show Spoiler +

Sporting event-boycotts

In 1959, the non-racial South African Sports Association (SASA) was formed to secure the rights of all players on the global field. After meeting with no success in its endeavours to attain credit by collaborating with white establishments, SASA approached the International Olympic Committee (IOC) in 1962, calling for South Africa's expulsion from the Olympic Games. The IOC sent South Africa a caution to the effect that, if there were no changes, they would be barred from the 1964 Olympic Games. The changes were initiated, and in January 1963, the South African Non-Racial Olympic Committee (SANROC) was set up. The Anti-Apartheid Movement persisted in its campaign for South Africa's exclusion, and the IOC acceded in barring the country from the 1964 Games in Tokyo. South Africa selected a multi-racial team for the next Games, and the IOC opted for incorporation in the 1968 Games in Mexico. Because of protests from AAMs and African nations, however, the IOC was forced to retract the invitation.

Foreign complaints about South Africa's bigoted sports brought more isolation. Racially selected New Zealand sports teams toured South Africa, until the 1970 All Blacks rugby tour allowed Maori to go under the status of "honorary whites". Huge and widespread protests occurred in New Zealand in 1981 against the Springbok tour – the government spent $8 million protecting games using the army and police force. A planned All Black tour to South Africa in 1985 remobilised the New Zealand protesters and it was cancelled. A "rebel tour" – not government sanctioned – went ahead in 1986, but after that sporting ties were cut, and New Zealand made a decision not to convey an authorised rugby team to South Africa until the end of apartheid.


Vorster replaced Verwoerd as Prime Minister in 1966 following the latter's assassination and declared that South Africa would no longer dictate to other countries what their teams should look like. Although this reopened the gate for international sporting meets, it did not signal the end of South Africa's racist sporting policies. In 1968 Vorster went against his policy by refusing to permit Basil D'Oliveira, a Coloured South African-born cricketer, to join the English cricket team on its tour to South Africa. Vorster said that the side had been chosen only to prove a point, and not on merit. After protests, however, "Dolly" was eventually included in the team. Protests against certain tours brought about the cancellation of a number of other visits, including that of an England rugby team touring South Africa in 1969/70.

The first of the "White Bans" occurred in 1971 when the Chairman of the Australian Cricketing Association – Sir Don Bradman – flew to South Africa to meet Vorster. Vorster had expected Bradman to allow the tour of the Australian cricket team to go ahead, but things became heated after Bradman asked why black sportsmen were not allowed to play cricket. Vorster stated that blacks were intellectually inferior and had no finesse for the game. Bradman – thinking this ignorant and repugnant – asked Vorster if he had heard of a man named Garry Sobers. On his return to Australia, Bradman released a one sentence statement: "We will not play them until they choose a team on a non-racist basis."[138]

In South Africa, Vorster vented his anger publicly against Bradman, while the African National Congress rejoiced. This was the first time a predominantly white nation had taken the side of multiracial sport, producing an unsettling resonance that more "White" boycotts were coming.[139] Almost twenty years later, on his release from prison, Nelson Mandela asked a visiting Australian statesman if Donald Bradman, his childhood hero, was still alive (Bradman lived until 2001).

In 1971, Vorster altered his policies even further by distinguishing multiracial from multinational sport. Multiracial sport, between teams with players of different races, remained outlawed; multinational sport, however, was now acceptable: international sides would not be subject to South Africa's racial stipulations.

In 1978, Nigeria boycotted the Commonwealth Games because New Zealand's sporting contacts with the South African government were not considered to be in accordance with the 1977 Gleneagles Agreement. Nigeria also led the 32-nation boycott of the 1986 Commonwealth Games because of British prime minister Margaret Thatcher's ambivalent attitude towards sporting links with South Africa, significantly affecting the quality and profitability of the Games and thus thrusting apartheid into the international spotlight.

Cultural boycotts
Cultural boycott
In the 1960s, the Anti-Apartheid Movements began to campaign for cultural boycotts of apartheid South Africa. Artists were requested not to present or let their works be hosted in South Africa. In 1963, 45 British writers put their signatures to an affirmation approving of the boycott, and, in 1964, American actor Marlon Brando called for a similar affirmation for films. In 1965, the Writers' Guild of Great Britain called for a proscription on the sending of films to South Africa. Over sixty American artists signed a statement against apartheid and against professional links with the state. The presentation of some South African plays in Britain and the United States was also vetoed. After the arrival of television in South Africa in 1975, the British Actors Union, Equity, boycotted the service, and no British programme concerning its associates could be sold to South Africa. Sporting and cultural boycotts did not have the same impact as economic sanctions, but they did much to lift consciousness amongst normal South Africans of the global condemnation of apartheid.

Western political influence
While international opposition to apartheid grew, the Nordic countries – and Sweden in particular – provided both moral and financial support for the ANC.[141] On 21 February 1986 – a week before he was murdered – Sweden's prime minister Olof Palme made the keynote address to the Swedish People's Parliament Against Apartheid held in Stockholm.[142] In addressing the hundreds of anti-apartheid sympathisers as well as leaders and officials from the ANC and the Anti-Apartheid Movement such as Oliver Tambo, Palme declared: "Apartheid cannot be reformed; it has to be eliminated."[143]

Other Western countries adopted a more ambivalent position. In Switzerland, the Swiss-South African Association lobbied on behalf of the South African government. In the 1980s, the US Reagan and UK Thatcher administrations followed a "constructive engagement" policy with the apartheid government, vetoing the imposition of UN economic sanctions, justified by a belief in free trade and a vision of South Africa as a bastion against Marxist forces in Southern Africa. Thatcher declared the ANC a terrorist organisation,[144] and in 1987 her spokesman, Bernard Ingham, famously said that anyone who believed that the ANC would ever form the government of South Africa was "living in cloud cuckoo land".[145] The American Legislative Exchange Council (ALEC), a conservative lobbying organisation, actively campaigned against divesting from South Africa throughout the 1980s.

(my own statement): Reagan and Thatcher supporting the apartheid regime, partially as part of cold war efforts, partially for economic benefit of american/british influences, halted the political struggle. But the ANC formed a government in 1994 - 7 years after Bernard Ingham said that anyone who believed that the ANC would ever form the government of South Africa was "living in cloud cuckoo land". I mean, it took like 35 years of varying degrees of international pressure before apartheid actually ended. It's a long, tough struggle, for sure. But I also believe that if people had the attitude of 'the black south africans should just move to namibia and zimbabwe because south africa will never accept ending apartheid', then it would never have succeeded.



My argument is not that it is an ineffective method. My argument is that Israel (who should just be labeled the US) is just too huge a player to be vulnerable to this. They are well insulated against this. "But Hitler" has a little too much pull.


Plansix, I believe we can relocate 4 million. Imagine this scenario: Big ass UN meeting. All parties vote in favor of establishing some sort of "Find Palestinians a couch to crash on" coalition/alliance/agreement/whatever. Establish some enormous pot of money where the EU, China, Russia, Israel, the US, maybe Iran and Saudi chip in too. Global effort to build new areas, repair old areas, 1 mil here, 1 mil there, etc...you are saying they would all get together and think "Actually, it turns out the entire world focusing on this together is still insufficient. We just don't have the resources, as an entire planet, to do this"?

My argument is that getting countries to buy into the idea is easier than militarily defeating the US. Palestinians only win if the US is defeated. Instead of focusing on defeating the US, I advocate for changing people's minds.
farvacola
Profile Blog Joined January 2011
United States18825 Posts
Last Edited: 2018-05-14 17:54:17
May 14 2018 17:53 GMT
#3887
On a related note with regards to mass relocation, I highly recommend A Wild Wild Country on Netflix. It hits on a lot of the points being discussed here.
"when the Dead Kennedys found out they had skinhead fans, they literally wrote a song titled 'Nazi Punks Fuck Off'"
TheDwf
Profile Joined November 2011
France19747 Posts
May 14 2018 17:54 GMT
#3888
Love how people are casually talking about displacing millions of human beings against their will instead of making a colonial State respect the international law.
Biff The Understudy
Profile Blog Joined February 2008
France7888 Posts
May 14 2018 17:54 GMT
#3889
On May 15 2018 02:36 Mohdoo wrote:
Show nested quote +
On May 15 2018 02:31 Rebs wrote:
On May 15 2018 02:02 Mohdoo wrote:
On May 15 2018 01:58 zlefin wrote:
mohdoo, can you point to a nation wiling to accept those 4 million refugees? if not, then your point doesn't counter mine at all.
Israel woudln't stop the palestinians from leaving if someone would take them; because it takes the problem off their hands.


No, I can't, because none of this is even happening yet. Is it that you really think Palestinians yelling "we give up if you can just find us a place to stay", the entire world, including the US, would just be like "ain't got time for that drama!"? This is a central issue to much of the world. A bunch of Euro countries help fund it, various middle eastern and south american countries take large chunks, and everything eventually gets worked out. This would be a global effort, not Iran being like "yeah, we'll just crank the whole thing out".

This would be more like the Iran deal than the Syrian refugee ordeal. A large, global group coordinating and negotiating.

Something being a giant, expensive mess isn't a reason to not do it. So long as there is a group of people being treated as sub-humans by an oppressive power, the situation is already terrible. It is actively bleeding. It's not like we have the luxury of just taking our time and letting it all settle out. These 34 people should not have died.

On May 15 2018 02:01 Rebs wrote:
On May 15 2018 01:56 Mohdoo wrote:
On May 15 2018 01:53 Plansix wrote:
On May 15 2018 01:26 Mohdoo wrote:
On May 15 2018 01:15 Liquid`Drone wrote:
Step one is to stop all international support of Israeli actions. Make them a pariah like south africa was during apartheid. Actively boycott Israeli goods, boycott artists who perform in israel, boycott sporting events taking place in israel, boycott matches against israeli teams, boycott any politician who supports their actions. Finding a lasting solution, that is truly difficult and I can't say I have one, but unless you actually want Israel to eventually cleanse and occupy all of palestine, anything short of this is enabling them.

There's validity to the argument that 'hey but to do this and be logically consistent you have to boycott china too because their treatment of tibet is just as bad', the difference is that China does not depend upon external support to behave the way Israel does.


If this is what you are hoping for, you may as well hope for a meteor shower to selectively strike Israeli targets. It won't happen. If you let yourself entertain ideas where the US cuts support for Israel, you aren't being productive. You are describing the most ethical outcome, but that isn't really that hard to determine and we already know it isn't what will happen.

Is it that you actually see some sort of post-zionist America? Based on what you are saying, you are just (understandably) really mad about the situation. It's not that you actually think what you describe will happen. Am I wrong?

If someone asked you to place a $1,000 bet on whether what you described would happen or not, would you take that bet?

Folks also need to remember there are over 4 million Palestinians in Israel. Relocation is about as realistic as the US suddenly dropping support for Israel.


4 million is huge, but not impossible. It is just a huge task. I don't think US support for Israel even compares. You are saying something really, really costly and really, really huge is the same as something impossible.

We are an amazingly resourceful and capable people. We could do it if the will was there. We can do anything. If the entire middle east, with financial support from other major world countries, all agreed to just find places for palestinians, it would happen.


The rest of the Middle East is just as if not more unlikely to take in the Palestenians then countries isolating/boycotting Israel. Most Arab countries (the rich ones) dont even offer paths to citizenship for immigrants. I think you have profound ignorance of what the rich Arab are like. They are scum on par with Bibi, just a different kind.


I think you are looking at this the wrong way. I am not saying there is some open door just waiting for someone to walk in. I am saying an enormous effort needs to be made to bring all the right people to the table and work something out.

This isn't how you problem solve. You don't look at something broken and say "boy this sure is broken. Guess we can't fix it!". You look at the fact that it is broken, figure out who is needed to fix it, and start talking about what can be done.

The whole point is that the situation is broken. I get that. We can fix it if the will is there.


Your kidding right ? Why is it that you believe that applying this logic to your solution and not boycotting Israel is more viable? Its clearly not. You assume that one is impossible but the other isnt because one set of pre-requisites received your stamp of possibility and the other one doesnt have it anymore.. just because...

Even if it were, the Palestinians dont want to leave. Its their home. And not only do they want to leave, they want whats taken back.


Assign a chance of success to this event. As I asked Drone, if someone asked you to bet on this happening in the next 5 years, would you bet $1000 on this happening? Or is this just a stubborn adherence to ethics?

And it isn't "just because". It is because the US and Israel aren't going anywhere. If your solution involves Israel giving up land, you may as well rub a lamp and hope a genie comes out.

Show nested quote +
On May 15 2018 02:34 Plansix wrote:
Also, “They should relocate” was the US’s plan for Native Americans. That isn’t a proud part of our history. And before folks cite the clear terrorist activities from the 1970s-2000s, there were more than a few Native American groups that violently resist relocation.


That is very messy. But I'll ask you this: Which is messier? That, or taking down Israel and the US through military force?

Palestinian success requires: Eliminate Israel and the US.

That's a really, really tough requirement. I'll be honest. I don't see it happening.

Everybody’s success is in compromises. And actually, the only realistic option that doesn’t end in a bloodbath, or rather a multisecular timebomb is both sides and mainly israelis making painful concessions.

At the moment, Israel is fully responsible if that deplorable situation. Their attitude in the last fifteen years has been absolutely and utterly disgusting. Pretending that you want to discuss while you keep annexing the other’s guys land in violation of international law is a non starter, and the moral equivalence between state violence from a modern, extremely wealthy country and a people whose hopes, future, dignity and rights is being trampled on everyday is morally bankrupt.

There are really two solutions. A painful one with two states or the statu quo leading straight to future horrors going way beyond the middle east. It’s very clear Netanyahu and his hard right goons are totally fine with the second one, unfortunately.
The fellow who is out to burn things up is the counterpart of the fool who thinks he can save the world. The world needs neither to be burned up nor to be saved. The world is, we are. Transients, if we buck it; here to stay if we accept it. ~H.Miller
Plansix
Profile Blog Joined April 2011
United States60190 Posts
May 14 2018 17:59 GMT
#3890
On May 15 2018 02:54 TheDwf wrote:
Love how people are casually talking about displacing millions of human beings against their will instead of making a colonial State respect the international law.

Getting anyone to respect international law is a challenge. Like most things in the UN, everyone is very good at declaring something as bad, but is unwilling to pay the price to stop that bad thing from happening.
I have the Honor to be your Obedient Servant, P.6
TL+ Member
zlefin
Profile Blog Joined October 2012
United States7689 Posts
Last Edited: 2018-05-14 18:02:48
May 14 2018 18:00 GMT
#3891
On May 15 2018 02:53 Mohdoo wrote:
Show nested quote +
On May 15 2018 02:46 Liquid`Drone wrote:
mohdoo international boycotts of south african magnitude have never been attempted. My understanding is however that they were instrumental in ending apartheid. And, political opinions can be subject to change;

If you are not familiar with these events, I've copy pasted some key examples from international boycotts/protests succeeding in causing positive political and social developments from the Wikipedia page on apartheid inside this spoiler.

+ Show Spoiler +

Sporting event-boycotts

In 1959, the non-racial South African Sports Association (SASA) was formed to secure the rights of all players on the global field. After meeting with no success in its endeavours to attain credit by collaborating with white establishments, SASA approached the International Olympic Committee (IOC) in 1962, calling for South Africa's expulsion from the Olympic Games. The IOC sent South Africa a caution to the effect that, if there were no changes, they would be barred from the 1964 Olympic Games. The changes were initiated, and in January 1963, the South African Non-Racial Olympic Committee (SANROC) was set up. The Anti-Apartheid Movement persisted in its campaign for South Africa's exclusion, and the IOC acceded in barring the country from the 1964 Games in Tokyo. South Africa selected a multi-racial team for the next Games, and the IOC opted for incorporation in the 1968 Games in Mexico. Because of protests from AAMs and African nations, however, the IOC was forced to retract the invitation.

Foreign complaints about South Africa's bigoted sports brought more isolation. Racially selected New Zealand sports teams toured South Africa, until the 1970 All Blacks rugby tour allowed Maori to go under the status of "honorary whites". Huge and widespread protests occurred in New Zealand in 1981 against the Springbok tour – the government spent $8 million protecting games using the army and police force. A planned All Black tour to South Africa in 1985 remobilised the New Zealand protesters and it was cancelled. A "rebel tour" – not government sanctioned – went ahead in 1986, but after that sporting ties were cut, and New Zealand made a decision not to convey an authorised rugby team to South Africa until the end of apartheid.


Vorster replaced Verwoerd as Prime Minister in 1966 following the latter's assassination and declared that South Africa would no longer dictate to other countries what their teams should look like. Although this reopened the gate for international sporting meets, it did not signal the end of South Africa's racist sporting policies. In 1968 Vorster went against his policy by refusing to permit Basil D'Oliveira, a Coloured South African-born cricketer, to join the English cricket team on its tour to South Africa. Vorster said that the side had been chosen only to prove a point, and not on merit. After protests, however, "Dolly" was eventually included in the team. Protests against certain tours brought about the cancellation of a number of other visits, including that of an England rugby team touring South Africa in 1969/70.

The first of the "White Bans" occurred in 1971 when the Chairman of the Australian Cricketing Association – Sir Don Bradman – flew to South Africa to meet Vorster. Vorster had expected Bradman to allow the tour of the Australian cricket team to go ahead, but things became heated after Bradman asked why black sportsmen were not allowed to play cricket. Vorster stated that blacks were intellectually inferior and had no finesse for the game. Bradman – thinking this ignorant and repugnant – asked Vorster if he had heard of a man named Garry Sobers. On his return to Australia, Bradman released a one sentence statement: "We will not play them until they choose a team on a non-racist basis."[138]

In South Africa, Vorster vented his anger publicly against Bradman, while the African National Congress rejoiced. This was the first time a predominantly white nation had taken the side of multiracial sport, producing an unsettling resonance that more "White" boycotts were coming.[139] Almost twenty years later, on his release from prison, Nelson Mandela asked a visiting Australian statesman if Donald Bradman, his childhood hero, was still alive (Bradman lived until 2001).

In 1971, Vorster altered his policies even further by distinguishing multiracial from multinational sport. Multiracial sport, between teams with players of different races, remained outlawed; multinational sport, however, was now acceptable: international sides would not be subject to South Africa's racial stipulations.

In 1978, Nigeria boycotted the Commonwealth Games because New Zealand's sporting contacts with the South African government were not considered to be in accordance with the 1977 Gleneagles Agreement. Nigeria also led the 32-nation boycott of the 1986 Commonwealth Games because of British prime minister Margaret Thatcher's ambivalent attitude towards sporting links with South Africa, significantly affecting the quality and profitability of the Games and thus thrusting apartheid into the international spotlight.

Cultural boycotts
Cultural boycott
In the 1960s, the Anti-Apartheid Movements began to campaign for cultural boycotts of apartheid South Africa. Artists were requested not to present or let their works be hosted in South Africa. In 1963, 45 British writers put their signatures to an affirmation approving of the boycott, and, in 1964, American actor Marlon Brando called for a similar affirmation for films. In 1965, the Writers' Guild of Great Britain called for a proscription on the sending of films to South Africa. Over sixty American artists signed a statement against apartheid and against professional links with the state. The presentation of some South African plays in Britain and the United States was also vetoed. After the arrival of television in South Africa in 1975, the British Actors Union, Equity, boycotted the service, and no British programme concerning its associates could be sold to South Africa. Sporting and cultural boycotts did not have the same impact as economic sanctions, but they did much to lift consciousness amongst normal South Africans of the global condemnation of apartheid.

Western political influence
While international opposition to apartheid grew, the Nordic countries – and Sweden in particular – provided both moral and financial support for the ANC.[141] On 21 February 1986 – a week before he was murdered – Sweden's prime minister Olof Palme made the keynote address to the Swedish People's Parliament Against Apartheid held in Stockholm.[142] In addressing the hundreds of anti-apartheid sympathisers as well as leaders and officials from the ANC and the Anti-Apartheid Movement such as Oliver Tambo, Palme declared: "Apartheid cannot be reformed; it has to be eliminated."[143]

Other Western countries adopted a more ambivalent position. In Switzerland, the Swiss-South African Association lobbied on behalf of the South African government. In the 1980s, the US Reagan and UK Thatcher administrations followed a "constructive engagement" policy with the apartheid government, vetoing the imposition of UN economic sanctions, justified by a belief in free trade and a vision of South Africa as a bastion against Marxist forces in Southern Africa. Thatcher declared the ANC a terrorist organisation,[144] and in 1987 her spokesman, Bernard Ingham, famously said that anyone who believed that the ANC would ever form the government of South Africa was "living in cloud cuckoo land".[145] The American Legislative Exchange Council (ALEC), a conservative lobbying organisation, actively campaigned against divesting from South Africa throughout the 1980s.

(my own statement): Reagan and Thatcher supporting the apartheid regime, partially as part of cold war efforts, partially for economic benefit of american/british influences, halted the political struggle. But the ANC formed a government in 1994 - 7 years after Bernard Ingham said that anyone who believed that the ANC would ever form the government of South Africa was "living in cloud cuckoo land". I mean, it took like 35 years of varying degrees of international pressure before apartheid actually ended. It's a long, tough struggle, for sure. But I also believe that if people had the attitude of 'the black south africans should just move to namibia and zimbabwe because south africa will never accept ending apartheid', then it would never have succeeded.



My argument is not that it is an ineffective method. My argument is that Israel (who should just be labeled the US) is just too huge a player to be vulnerable to this. They are well insulated against this. "But Hitler" has a little too much pull.


Plansix, I believe we can relocate 4 million. Imagine this scenario: Big ass UN meeting. All parties vote in favor of establishing some sort of "Find Palestinians a couch to crash on" coalition/alliance/agreement/whatever. Establish some enormous pot of money where the EU, China, Russia, Israel, the US, maybe Iran and Saudi chip in too. Global effort to build new areas, repair old areas, 1 mil here, 1 mil there, etc...you are saying they would all get together and think "Actually, it turns out the entire world focusing on this together is still insufficient. We just don't have the resources, as an entire planet, to do this"?

My argument is that getting countries to buy into the idea is easier than militarily defeating the US. Palestinians only win if the US is defeated. Instead of focusing on defeating the US, I advocate for changing people's minds.

you still have no way to deal with the basic problem that the palestinians don't want to go somewhere else, even if you could find a place for them.
how do you deal with that?
Great read: http://shorensteincenter.org/news-coverage-2016-general-election/ great book on democracy: http://press.princeton.edu/titles/10671.html zlefin is grumpier due to long term illness. Ignoring some users.
Liquid`Drone
Profile Joined September 2002
Norway28665 Posts
May 14 2018 18:03 GMT
#3892
+ Show Spoiler +

[image loading]
[image loading]


These pictures are actually interesting in light of the political development in the US, and gives me some degree of hope.

Firstly; younger people are more supportive of Palestine than older people, significantly so. This means that while the top picture shows american support of israel as quite resilient, it also seems probable that american support is going to decline as the silent and baby boomer groups die off.

Secondly, the US is becoming increasingly polarized. Democrats are much less supportive of Israel than Republicans are. Thus even though the overall support of Israel is largely unchanged over the past 40 years, upticks and downturns notwithstanding, Democrats can potentially, if/when they attain political power again, have more support within their own party to address the issue differently from how it has been addressed in the past. Support among the entire population changed from 45% to 46% between 1978 and 2018 - support among democrats went from 44% to 27% during the same period, and it seems to have gone from 42% to 27% in just 5 years. If this development continues, I could easily see Democrats having to run on a significantly more pro-palestine platform 10 years from now. They're not gonna be gunning for the republican votes anyway.
Moderator
Velr
Profile Blog Joined July 2008
Switzerland10700 Posts
May 14 2018 18:06 GMT
#3893
Uhm, that the left is more critical of israel than the right isn't news in the US? Look at the map, two state solution is dead. Let israel own some parts and other neighbours the rest. Be realistic.. Sad...
iamthedave
Profile Joined February 2011
England2814 Posts
Last Edited: 2018-05-14 18:19:30
May 14 2018 18:13 GMT
#3894
Here are some basic problems, as I see it.

1) Israel isn't going away.

2) Palestinians want Israel to go away.

3) Neither side wants to budge on points 1) or 2)

4) Israel has the guns.

5) Israel has the support of one of the world's superpowers.


There comes a point where moral blathering enters the realm of pointlessness. The Israelis are the aggressors. But the Palestinians are powerless, will remain powerless, and nobody is going to save them. They also don't want to be saved. They want something that is a political and realistic impossibility. At some point, either the Palestinians give up their homeland and try to find somewhere else to live, or they succumb to annihilation. It isn't nice. It isn't fair. It's what happens when one culture becomes super-dominant over another, though, and has happened forever throughout history. See 'Native Americans' and 'The fact that the United States is not The United Native American States'.

Both sides have sabotaged the peace process multiple times throughout history, and both sides have intractable issues with the other. I wish there was a simple solution. But all I see is a situation that can't be 'fixed' externally, and neither side truly wants to fix internally. The Israelis don't need to (they're winning), the Palestinians don't want to (they don't see why they should lose their homelands).

I mean, HAMAS doesn't recognise Israel's right to exist. If you were leading Israel, would you consider these reasonable actors with whom you can have productive negotiations?

I sympathise with both sides of the conflict. I see no way for it to end in any other way than Palestinian annihilation. The Israelis can't be beaten by them, and nobody's going to change that, and the Palestinians - whether due to bad actors or out of frustration with their horrendous conditions - keep giving them reason to crack down harder.

I mean, here's a quote just from the wikipedia article on the subject, just a surface level breakdown of the fundamentals at play here: "Nevertheless, there is a range of ulterior motives for Israel's denial of Palestinian statehood. If Palestine were declared a state, then immediately, Israel, by its present occupation of the West Bank will be in breach of the United Nations Charter. Palestine, as a state, could legitimately call upon the inherent right of individual or collective self-defense under Article 51 of the Charter to remove Israel from the occupied territories. Palestine, as a state, would be able to accede to international conventions and bring legal action against Israel on various matters. Palestine could accede to various international human rights instruments, such as the Covenant on Civil and Political Rights. It could even join the International Criminal Court and file cases against Israel for war crimes. It would be a tinderbox of a situation that is highly likely to precipitate conflict in the Middle East."

This is more than just 'Israel does a bad thing', there are more complex issues at play that trap both sides in a one-sided death spiral. And nobody knows the solution to that.
I'm not bad at Starcraft; I just think winning's rude.
Acrofales
Profile Joined August 2010
Spain17983 Posts
Last Edited: 2018-05-14 18:58:19
May 14 2018 18:56 GMT
#3895
On May 15 2018 01:15 Liquid`Drone wrote:
Step one is to stop all international support of Israeli actions. Make them a pariah like south africa was during apartheid. Actively boycott Israeli goods, boycott artists who perform in israel, boycott sporting events taking place in israel, boycott matches against israeli teams, boycott any politician who supports their actions. Finding a lasting solution, that is truly difficult and I can't say I have one, but unless you actually want Israel to eventually cleanse and occupy all of palestine, anything short of this is enabling them.

There's validity to the argument that 'hey but to do this and be logically consistent you have to boycott china too because their treatment of tibet is just as bad', the difference is that China does not depend upon external support to behave the way Israel does.

My girlfriend pointed out that we just did the inverse of that, by giving Israel a Eurovision win.

I argued that "art" has nothing to do with it, but she's right: that girl represented her country, including all its ugliness, and Europe responded with "right, here's first place!"
nojok
Profile Joined May 2011
France15845 Posts
Last Edited: 2018-05-14 19:01:29
May 14 2018 18:59 GMT
#3896
On May 15 2018 03:13 iamthedave wrote:


There comes a point where moral blathering enters the realm of pointlessness. The Israelis are the aggressors. But the Palestinians are powerless, will remain powerless, and nobody is going to save them. They also don't want to be saved. They want something that is a political and realistic impossibility. At some point, either the Palestinians give up their homeland and try to find somewhere else to live, or they succumb to annihilation. It isn't nice. It isn't fair. It's what happens when one culture becomes super-dominant over another, though, and has happened forever throughout history. See 'Native Americans' and 'The fact that the United States is not The United Native American States'.



Wtf?! Don't you even sense the irony? You know that war in the 40s.

I hope this apology of genocide is not accepted on TL.
"Back then teams that won were credited, now it's called throw. I think it's sad." - Kuroky - Flap Flap Wings!
Slaughter
Profile Blog Joined November 2003
United States20254 Posts
May 14 2018 19:18 GMT
#3897
The US could probably force a lot of concessions out of Israel if they wanted. Their lobby is really freaking big though so that would never happen.
Never Knows Best.
Mohdoo
Profile Joined August 2007
United States15686 Posts
May 14 2018 20:14 GMT
#3898
On May 15 2018 03:59 nojok wrote:
Show nested quote +
On May 15 2018 03:13 iamthedave wrote:


There comes a point where moral blathering enters the realm of pointlessness. The Israelis are the aggressors. But the Palestinians are powerless, will remain powerless, and nobody is going to save them. They also don't want to be saved. They want something that is a political and realistic impossibility. At some point, either the Palestinians give up their homeland and try to find somewhere else to live, or they succumb to annihilation. It isn't nice. It isn't fair. It's what happens when one culture becomes super-dominant over another, though, and has happened forever throughout history. See 'Native Americans' and 'The fact that the United States is not The United Native American States'.



Wtf?! Don't you even sense the irony? You know that war in the 40s.

I hope this apology of genocide is not accepted on TL.


No one is apologizing for anything. Facts are facts and ethics don't always mean anything. The Holocaust happened, despite the fact that many people objected. Lots of genocide, lots of ethnic cleansing alllll over history. Your beliefs and your ethics don't protect anyone. Only action can protect people. Everything must exist in a physical reality. Israel's blatant disregard for human life and human rights does not hurt their chances of winning.

I feel like many people here are having a fundamental issue with accepting extreme tragedy. It's like you guys think there is some divine hand that makes sure really really bad things don't happen. There are so many tragedies happening all around the world that I don't understand why you guys seem to assume there is always some Disney ending.
zlefin
Profile Blog Joined October 2012
United States7689 Posts
Last Edited: 2018-05-14 20:27:01
May 14 2018 20:23 GMT
#3899
On May 15 2018 05:14 Mohdoo wrote:
Show nested quote +
On May 15 2018 03:59 nojok wrote:
On May 15 2018 03:13 iamthedave wrote:


There comes a point where moral blathering enters the realm of pointlessness. The Israelis are the aggressors. But the Palestinians are powerless, will remain powerless, and nobody is going to save them. They also don't want to be saved. They want something that is a political and realistic impossibility. At some point, either the Palestinians give up their homeland and try to find somewhere else to live, or they succumb to annihilation. It isn't nice. It isn't fair. It's what happens when one culture becomes super-dominant over another, though, and has happened forever throughout history. See 'Native Americans' and 'The fact that the United States is not The United Native American States'.



Wtf?! Don't you even sense the irony? You know that war in the 40s.

I hope this apology of genocide is not accepted on TL.


No one is apologizing for anything. Facts are facts and ethics don't always mean anything. The Holocaust happened, despite the fact that many people objected. Lots of genocide, lots of ethnic cleansing alllll over history. Your beliefs and your ethics don't protect anyone. Only action can protect people. Everything must exist in a physical reality. Israel's blatant disregard for human life and human rights does not hurt their chances of winning.

I feel like many people here are having a fundamental issue with accepting extreme tragedy. It's like you guys think there is some divine hand that makes sure really really bad things don't happen. There are so many tragedies happening all around the world that I don't understand why you guys seem to assume there is always some Disney ending.

feel free to come up with a proposal; but so far you haven't really. relocation doesn't work because the palestinians don't want to move so you can't move them. got any other proposals?
Great read: http://shorensteincenter.org/news-coverage-2016-general-election/ great book on democracy: http://press.princeton.edu/titles/10671.html zlefin is grumpier due to long term illness. Ignoring some users.
Liquid`Drone
Profile Joined September 2002
Norway28665 Posts
May 14 2018 20:27 GMT
#3900
I feel like your argumentation is circular. People aren't assuming that there's going to be a disney ending, we are trying to find a solution that yields the best results for the most people. The more people support this, the more likely it is to happen. Meanwhile your 'likely bad outcome' is more likely to happen the more people who feel like you do - that any type of struggle is futile.

It's a bit like people who oppose gays getting adoption rights 'because people like me would give their kids a hard time and no child deserves to be bullied, and there will always be people like me'. I'm not drawing a parallel between the attitudes btw, just between the type of reasoning.

The idea that 'we should accept extreme tragedy', how do you justify that? Yes extreme tragedies happen, but they happen less the more people fight to avoid them happening. This shouldn't be hard to understand.. I mean your holocaust analogy is just.. what? Yes the holocaust happened. It also did not kill every jew. Nazi germany lost the war because people fought against them, not because people said 'oh well, bad things happen'.
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