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On May 15 2018 05:14 Mohdoo wrote:Show nested quote +On May 15 2018 03:59 nojok wrote:On May 15 2018 03:13 iamthedave wrote:
There comes a point where moral blathering enters the realm of pointlessness. The Israelis are the aggressors. But the Palestinians are powerless, will remain powerless, and nobody is going to save them. They also don't want to be saved. They want something that is a political and realistic impossibility. At some point, either the Palestinians give up their homeland and try to find somewhere else to live, or they succumb to annihilation. It isn't nice. It isn't fair. It's what happens when one culture becomes super-dominant over another, though, and has happened forever throughout history. See 'Native Americans' and 'The fact that the United States is not The United Native American States'.
Wtf?! Don't you even sense the irony? You know that war in the 40s. I hope this apology of genocide is not accepted on TL. No one is apologizing for anything. Facts are facts and ethics don't always mean anything. The Holocaust happened, despite the fact that many people objected. Lots of genocide, lots of ethnic cleansing alllll over history. Your beliefs and your ethics don't protect anyone. Only action can protect people. Everything must exist in a physical reality. Israel's blatant disregard for human life and human rights does not hurt their chances of winning. I feel like many people here are having a fundamental issue with accepting extreme tragedy. It's like you guys think there is some divine hand that makes sure really really bad things don't happen. There are so many tragedies happening all around the world that I don't understand why you guys seem to assume there is always some Disney ending.
People are trying to think of ways to alleviate the tragedy slightly. If putting international pressure on Israel can do anything to make them think or their soldiers twice before firing on civilians then its worth it. It does nothing to solve the long term problem, but neither does repeatedly saying "Just move them" because like zlefin says you can't move people from their land if they don't want to be moved.
What do you do when they refuse?
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On May 15 2018 05:14 Mohdoo wrote:Show nested quote +On May 15 2018 03:59 nojok wrote:On May 15 2018 03:13 iamthedave wrote:
There comes a point where moral blathering enters the realm of pointlessness. The Israelis are the aggressors. But the Palestinians are powerless, will remain powerless, and nobody is going to save them. They also don't want to be saved. They want something that is a political and realistic impossibility. At some point, either the Palestinians give up their homeland and try to find somewhere else to live, or they succumb to annihilation. It isn't nice. It isn't fair. It's what happens when one culture becomes super-dominant over another, though, and has happened forever throughout history. See 'Native Americans' and 'The fact that the United States is not The United Native American States'.
Wtf?! Don't you even sense the irony? You know that war in the 40s. I hope this apology of genocide is not accepted on TL. No one is apologizing for anything. Facts are facts and ethics don't always mean anything. The Holocaust happened, despite the fact that many people objected. Lots of genocide, lots of ethnic cleansing alllll over history. Your beliefs and your ethics don't protect anyone. Only action can protect people. Everything must exist in a physical reality. Israel's blatant disregard for human life and human rights does not hurt their chances of winning. I feel like many people here are having a fundamental issue with accepting extreme tragedy. It's like you guys think there is some divine hand that makes sure really really bad things don't happen. There are so many tragedies happening all around the world that I don't understand why you guys seem to assume there is always some Disney ending.
Your notion that forcibly relocating 4 million people is in any way feasible is ridiculous. It would require a huge military investment over potentially decades, and could cost hundreds of thousands of lives.
There is precedent for economic and political pressure causing policy change on a large scale. It may take generations, but it's a solution based in reality. Yours is not.
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On May 15 2018 05:14 Mohdoo wrote:Show nested quote +On May 15 2018 03:59 nojok wrote:On May 15 2018 03:13 iamthedave wrote:
There comes a point where moral blathering enters the realm of pointlessness. The Israelis are the aggressors. But the Palestinians are powerless, will remain powerless, and nobody is going to save them. They also don't want to be saved. They want something that is a political and realistic impossibility. At some point, either the Palestinians give up their homeland and try to find somewhere else to live, or they succumb to annihilation. It isn't nice. It isn't fair. It's what happens when one culture becomes super-dominant over another, though, and has happened forever throughout history. See 'Native Americans' and 'The fact that the United States is not The United Native American States'.
Wtf?! Don't you even sense the irony? You know that war in the 40s. I hope this apology of genocide is not accepted on TL. No one is apologizing for anything. Facts are facts and ethics don't always mean anything. The Holocaust happened, despite the fact that many people objected. Lots of genocide, lots of ethnic cleansing alllll over history. Your beliefs and your ethics don't protect anyone. Only action can protect people. Everything must exist in a physical reality. Israel's blatant disregard for human life and human rights does not hurt their chances of winning. I feel like many people here are having a fundamental issue with accepting extreme tragedy. It's like you guys think there is some divine hand that makes sure really really bad things don't happen. There are so many tragedies happening all around the world that I don't understand why you guys seem to assume there is always some Disney ending.
You're right. Instead of trying to prevent another genocide on the scale of the Holocaust we should forcefully relocate the Palestinians! Maybe we should put them in trains to labor camps. Preferably somewhere out of sight, like Poland...
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On May 15 2018 05:14 Mohdoo wrote:Show nested quote +On May 15 2018 03:59 nojok wrote:On May 15 2018 03:13 iamthedave wrote:
There comes a point where moral blathering enters the realm of pointlessness. The Israelis are the aggressors. But the Palestinians are powerless, will remain powerless, and nobody is going to save them. They also don't want to be saved. They want something that is a political and realistic impossibility. At some point, either the Palestinians give up their homeland and try to find somewhere else to live, or they succumb to annihilation. It isn't nice. It isn't fair. It's what happens when one culture becomes super-dominant over another, though, and has happened forever throughout history. See 'Native Americans' and 'The fact that the United States is not The United Native American States'.
Wtf?! Don't you even sense the irony? You know that war in the 40s. I hope this apology of genocide is not accepted on TL. I feel like many people here are having a fundamental issue with accepting extreme tragedy. It's like you guys think there is some divine hand that makes sure really really bad things don't happen. There are so many tragedies happening all around the world that I don't understand why you guys seem to assume there is always some Disney ending.
Come on now. You should be able to recognize that nobody on the other side is advocating for waiting for a divine hand, we all want action; you just disagree with us on what action is preferable. Arguably your notion that convincing one government to change its policy is harder to do for a unified world force than moving 4 million people is illogical; but what can't be argued is that anybody expects things to just work out.
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Came home to this in the mail. Not gonna go into detail in what's in there, but it is grade A propaganda.
![[image loading]](https://i.imgur.com/SzJ1jrh.jpg)
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Netanyahu is no different then Assad really. I wonder If he would ever kill his own people if they started violent protests against him like the Palestinians. Jews don't accept that other people are living near them and are fighting for their home and rights, this to me really is no different then an ethnic cleansing. Always acting like they have the moral ground for this genocides, with their Holier then thou attitude massacring civilians, mentioning that it's God's will, which makes me want to puke... If someone criticizes them, they swarm in label you anti-semitic...
With all their modern military and support from the USA, they choose the most cowardly way to kill protesters. Instead of using modern technology and protocols to stop or disperse this protests if they're so bothered by them, they choose the easist way which is to murder them. With his genocidial tendencies Neanyahu is digging his own grave. Arab and muslim countries, as well as the UN will have enough at some point.
I hope this doesn't escalate like the 2014 Israel - Gaza war, where because of 3 kidnapped israelis, thousands of Palestinians were killed and tens of thousands injured, not to mention the billions damage to infrastructure.
Trump really destabilized the region with moving the embacy to Jerusalim and now with the Iran deal. He will see a Nobel peace price only in his dreams. Thanks to Israel and Trump, USA may inevitably distance itself from her allies, and instead of russian, maybe they should worry about Jewish influence over their country...
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Can we just be honest about Mohdoo and to a lesser degree iamdave arguing in favor of genocide because the US not helping commit genocide is 'impossible'.
People wonder how the Nazi's did it... This is what it looked like. It looked like literally explaining away genocide as 'best for humanity' this shit is all the way gross.
instead of russian, maybe they should worry about Jewish influence over their country...
If the media had filled mohdoo's head with how atrocious Israel is acting and how any responsible president would cool relations with Israel significantly, instead of the anti-Black/anti-Russian propaganda, maybe he wouldn't think it nearly as impossible as he does.
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On May 15 2018 06:39 GreenHorizons wrote:Can we just be honest about Mohdoo and to a lesser degree iamdave arguing in favor of genocide because the US not helping commit genocide is 'impossible'. People wonder how the Nazi's did it... This is what it looked like. It looked like literally explaining away genocide as 'best for humanity' this shit is all the way gross. Show nested quote +instead of russian, maybe they should worry about Jewish influence over their country...
If the media had filled mohdoo's head with how atrocious Israel is acting and how any responsible president would cool relations with Israel significantly, instead of the anti-Black/anti-Russian propaganda, maybe he wouldn't think it nearly as impossible as he does.
I'm sorry but I really don't understand that framing...Mohdoo literally said 'there is a group of people being treated as sub-humans by an oppressive power, the situation is already terrible' so why do you think he is arguing in favor of genocide? He had an 'out of the box' idea/thought experiment to decrease suffering because he thinks the current status quo won't change. I'm not saying it was a great idea but I don't see him pleading for genocide
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On May 15 2018 07:21 FueledUpAndReadyToGo wrote:Show nested quote +On May 15 2018 06:39 GreenHorizons wrote:Can we just be honest about Mohdoo and to a lesser degree iamdave arguing in favor of genocide because the US not helping commit genocide is 'impossible'. People wonder how the Nazi's did it... This is what it looked like. It looked like literally explaining away genocide as 'best for humanity' this shit is all the way gross. instead of russian, maybe they should worry about Jewish influence over their country...
If the media had filled mohdoo's head with how atrocious Israel is acting and how any responsible president would cool relations with Israel significantly, instead of the anti-Black/anti-Russian propaganda, maybe he wouldn't think it nearly as impossible as he does. I'm sorry but I really don't understand that framing...Mohdoo literally said 'there is a group of people being treated as sub-humans by an oppressive power, the situation is already terrible' so why do you think he is arguing in favor of genocide? He had an 'out of the box' idea/thought experiment to decrease suffering because he thinks the current status quo won't change.
His 'out of the box' idea was ethnic cleansing, and when confronted with the reality they aren't going to be willingly removed from their homes (besides having nowhere to go) basically doubled down, which leaves genocide as the only answer in his scenario for "what do you do when they don't go?"
Here's how you change the status quo, you don't let the leader of the Senate Democrats get away with praising Trump for his role in this horrific violence. But you know, "vote blue no matter who", even if that means supporting ethnic cleansing/genocide and having such a person lead your party.
We have at least the nominal vestiges of a democracy in the US. We have an inordinate amount of potential influence on the US-Israel relationship relatively speaking in history. It's in no small part too many people thinking like Mohdoo and accepting their complicity in genocide as an unfortunate inevitability instead of the conscious choice to remain ambivalent (at best) to the suffering of people that aren't them/their family, and the consequences they invite by doing so.
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On May 15 2018 05:56 Gahlo wrote:Came home to this in the mail. Not gonna go into detail in what's in there, but it is grade A propaganda.
Fox News is also a straight up state run propaganda outlet these days. They are much more deferential to Trump than the liberal media is to Democrats. The argument that the media by and large is more liberal than it is conservative is not a very good one. Here’s a sampling from the past couple hours:
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Not going to argue Fox News isn't trash, but surely you have examples of 'liberal media' being critical of Schumer's emphatic support of Trump's actions today?
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The wapo has one: https://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/plum-line/wp/2018/05/14/under-trump-the-u-s-has-abandoned-the-last-shred-of-balance-on-israel
We should note that it’s not just him. “In a long overdue move, we have moved our embassy to Jerusalem,” Senate Minority Leader Charles E. Schumer (D-N.Y.) said on Monday in a statement. “Every nation should have the right to choose its capital. I sponsored legislation to do this two decades ago, and I applaud President Trump for doing it.”
Schumer didn’t say anything about the Palestinians being killed and wounded — a vulgar moral abdication — let alone how he thinks the Trump administration’s policies are going to do anything but make peace in the region less likely.
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no surprise schumer would say what he did. that's local politics for ya.
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Okay, I must be missing something here. The leadership of the Palestinians literally wants to commit genocide on the Israelis. It's a stated goal. So all of you guys screaming about genocide are taking the wrong side. We already know what happens when Israel is in a weak state. They get attacked. They've been attacked repeatedly throughout their history.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_wars_involving_Israel
If they ever lose a war, it becomes a war of annihilation. Yet, when they win wars, Palestine continues to exist. In 1997, there were 2.8 million people in Palestinian territories. In 2017, 5 million people. So, where's the genocide? The population nearly doubled in 20 years. You can go back further, to a UN estimate of 44k live births per year in 1950-1955 which is now at 144k live births per year in 2010-15.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_the_Palestinian_territories
In what world is it genocide or ethnic cleansing when the population keeps getting larger? Be glad that Israel is the one with the power and the rest of the civilized world should ensure that it stays that way.
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On May 15 2018 08:17 zlefin wrote:
no surprise schumer would say what he did. that's local politics for ya.
There's also the fact that he's Jewish, which probably inclines him to side with Israel anyway.
On May 15 2018 08:36 RenSC2 wrote:Okay, I must be missing something here. The leadership of the Palestinians literally wants to commit genocide on the Israelis. It's a stated goal. So all of you guys screaming about genocide are taking the wrong side. We already know what happens when Israel is in a weak state. They get attacked. They've been attacked repeatedly throughout their history. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_wars_involving_IsraelIf they ever lose a war, it becomes a war of annihilation. Yet, when they win wars, Palestine continues to exist. In 1997, there were 2.8 million people in Palestinian territories. In 2017, 5 million people. So, where's the genocide? The population nearly doubled in 20 years. You can go back further, to a UN estimate of 44k live births per year in 1950-1955 which is now at 144k live births per year in 2010-15. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_the_Palestinian_territoriesIn what world is it genocide or ethnic cleansing when the population keeps getting larger? Be glad that Israel is the one with the power and the rest of the civilized world should ensure that it stays that way.
My goal is for genocide to not exist. Israel is committing genocide right now. I want them to stop commiting genocide right now. Does Israel need to commit genocide to not be weak?
Reproduction rates grows in places that are less developed and lowers in places that are more developed. Counting heads doesn't matter when they are all getting backed into a corner.
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I mean that's literally the entire critique, right there, and it of course included criticism of Trump, as does the headline and the entire rest of the article. It basically completely absolves Democrats of any responsibility whatsoever. Doesn't even mention who signed or voted for the legislation declaring that the US thought the Embassy should be in Jerusalem in the first place.
I mean one article buried in the opinion/blogs section with one line in it isn't the kind of example I was looking for. I was looking more for a tweet from liberal media headlining their critique against Democrats culpability and an article explaining it. But that is a popular liberal outlet with at least a speck of criticism toward 1 Democrat.
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On May 15 2018 08:36 Gahlo wrote:There's also the fact that he's Jewish, which probably inclines him to side with Israel anyway. Show nested quote +On May 15 2018 08:36 RenSC2 wrote:Okay, I must be missing something here. The leadership of the Palestinians literally wants to commit genocide on the Israelis. It's a stated goal. So all of you guys screaming about genocide are taking the wrong side. We already know what happens when Israel is in a weak state. They get attacked. They've been attacked repeatedly throughout their history. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_wars_involving_IsraelIf they ever lose a war, it becomes a war of annihilation. Yet, when they win wars, Palestine continues to exist. In 1997, there were 2.8 million people in Palestinian territories. In 2017, 5 million people. So, where's the genocide? The population nearly doubled in 20 years. You can go back further, to a UN estimate of 44k live births per year in 1950-1955 which is now at 144k live births per year in 2010-15. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_the_Palestinian_territoriesIn what world is it genocide or ethnic cleansing when the population keeps getting larger? Be glad that Israel is the one with the power and the rest of the civilized world should ensure that it stays that way. My goal is for genocide to not exist. Israel is committing genocide right now. Does Israel need to commit genocide to not be weak? Reproduction rates grows in places that are less developed and lowers in places that are more developed. Counting heads doesn't matter when they are all getting backed into a corner.
I question your use of the term "genocide" and ask for the exact definition you're using.
ethnic cleansing perhaps, but genocide does not seem apt. I know some people's use of the terms conflates the two, but I feel the distinction is very important.
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On May 15 2018 08:36 RenSC2 wrote:
Okay, I must be missing something here. The leadership of the Palestinians literally wants to commit genocide on the Israelis. It's a stated goal. So all of you guys screaming about genocide are taking the wrong side. We already know what happens when Israel is in a weak state. They get attacked. They've been attacked repeatedly throughout their history.
Hey Ren, why do you think people got killed today?
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On May 15 2018 08:43 zlefin wrote:Show nested quote +On May 15 2018 08:36 Gahlo wrote:There's also the fact that he's Jewish, which probably inclines him to side with Israel anyway. On May 15 2018 08:36 RenSC2 wrote:Okay, I must be missing something here. The leadership of the Palestinians literally wants to commit genocide on the Israelis. It's a stated goal. So all of you guys screaming about genocide are taking the wrong side. We already know what happens when Israel is in a weak state. They get attacked. They've been attacked repeatedly throughout their history. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_wars_involving_IsraelIf they ever lose a war, it becomes a war of annihilation. Yet, when they win wars, Palestine continues to exist. In 1997, there were 2.8 million people in Palestinian territories. In 2017, 5 million people. So, where's the genocide? The population nearly doubled in 20 years. You can go back further, to a UN estimate of 44k live births per year in 1950-1955 which is now at 144k live births per year in 2010-15. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_the_Palestinian_territoriesIn what world is it genocide or ethnic cleansing when the population keeps getting larger? Be glad that Israel is the one with the power and the rest of the civilized world should ensure that it stays that way. My goal is for genocide to not exist. Israel is committing genocide right now. Does Israel need to commit genocide to not be weak? Reproduction rates grows in places that are less developed and lowers in places that are more developed. Counting heads doesn't matter when they are all getting backed into a corner. I question your use of the term "genocide" and ask for the exact definition you're using. ethnic cleansing perhaps, but genocide does not seem apt. I know some people's use of the terms conflates the two, but I feel the distinction is very important.
Genocide is destruction of a group. Ethnic cleansing is expulsion of a group from an area, often by force. The Palestinians a) don't want to leave and b) have nowhere to go even if they wanted to. So at this point, no, it's genocide.
Israel doesn't get to go "oops, we tried to ethnically cleanse them and accidentally commited genocide. Their fault for not leaving."
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On May 15 2018 08:36 RenSC2 wrote:Okay, I must be missing something here. The leadership of the Palestinians literally wants to commit genocide on the Israelis. It's a stated goal. So all of you guys screaming about genocide are taking the wrong side. We already know what happens when Israel is in a weak state. They get attacked. They've been attacked repeatedly throughout their history. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_wars_involving_IsraelIf they ever lose a war, it becomes a war of annihilation. Yet, when they win wars, Palestine continues to exist. In 1997, there were 2.8 million people in Palestinian territories. In 2017, 5 million people. So, where's the genocide? The population nearly doubled in 20 years. You can go back further, to a UN estimate of 44k live births per year in 1950-1955 which is now at 144k live births per year in 2010-15. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_the_Palestinian_territoriesIn what world is it genocide or ethnic cleansing when the population keeps getting larger? Be glad that Israel is the one with the power and the rest of the civilized world should ensure that it stays that way.
I think people have stated in here that these single events might be horrible but in no way do they influence the population at large. Sure, a couple dozen people died but you won't have an entire populace eradicated that way. Not that I'm trying to sound like an asshole here, I'm just trying to describe it as matter-of-factly as possible.
According to some people the solution to that problem, that is this incident that had 50+ (Reuters says the number is currently at 58) people die, would be to relocate all those people against their will.
That relocation that is suggested is what GH refers to as ethnic cleansing in here. Also whatever you're doing if those people who are supposed to be relocated (to wherever) say "no"
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