US Politics Mega-thread - Page 197

On May 15 2018 08:47 Gahlo wrote:

Genocide is destruction of a group. Ethnic cleansing is expulsion of a group from an area, often by force. The Palestinians a) don't want to leave and b) have nowhere to go even if they wanted to. So at this point, no, it's genocide.

Israel doesn't get to go "oops, we tried to ethnically cleanse them and accidentally commited genocide. Their fault for not leaving."

On May 15 2018 08:45 Nebuchad wrote:


Hey Ren, why do you think people got killed today?

On May 15 2018 08:56 zlefin wrote:


what is happening does not match the definition you provided. "destruction of a group"
if Israel were committing genocide, the number of palestinians would not be increasing at such a rapid rate. I see no sign of the palestinians being destroyed as a group.

On May 15 2018 09:00 micronesia wrote:

Perhaps media reporting isn't doing the truth justice, but my read right now is that protesters were cutting the fence into Israel and then invading, getting shot in the process. If someone can reasonably source better facts that would probably be helpful.

On May 15 2018 09:18 Nebuchad wrote:


Self-defense arguments work better when the defense doesn't use a sniper rifle.

Found that one in the NY Times:

„Israel has used rubber bullets as a deterrent, but military officials say they are effective only at short range. Israel says its soldiers are allowed to use live ammunition as a last resort and are instructed to aim at people’s ankles or legs."

You know, that situation of last resort where the guy is too far away from you for rubber bullets. It's like they're openly trolling you at this point...

On May 15 2018 09:02 Gahlo wrote:

Because, as I said, they are being cornered. Palestine has been shrinking over the years. Eventually you'll get to a point where there is nowhere left in Palestine for Palestinians to go. Then you can have your big display of genocide and it'll be too late to do anything about it.

On May 15 2018 09:32 micronesia wrote:

I agree the logic behind that policy about what ammo to use when doesn't really make sense. On the other hand, you seem to be ignoring the fact that large groups of people, some of whom have been quoted as saying they are going to slaughter Israelis, are attempting to break into Israel. So to answer your question, the short answer as to why most of those people got killed today, is because they tried to bust through a military checkpoint into another nation after being told not to. That doesn't tell the whole story, but it seems to me to point out why your original question towards RenSC2 was not really reasonable.

On May 15 2018 10:06 Gahlo wrote:

At what point do you think Israel will stop? Because the Palestinians aren't leaving and Israel keeps encroaching.

On May 15 2018 10:14 zlefin wrote:

I don't know when; but I don't need to, as the burden of proof is on you. Furthermore, the existence of various native american reservations is an indicator that it's possible for a people to be compressed into an area, cleansed otu of others, while not being completely obliterated.
nor have you provided any decent counter to the point about population numbers.

On May 15 2018 08:36 RenSC2 wrote:
Okay, I must be missing something here. The leadership of the Palestinians literally wants to commit genocide on the Israelis. It's a stated goal. So all of you guys screaming about genocide are taking the wrong side. We already know what happens when Israel is in a weak state. They get attacked. They've been attacked repeatedly throughout their history.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_wars_involving_Israel

If they ever lose a war, it becomes a war of annihilation. Yet, when they win wars, Palestine continues to exist. In 1997, there were 2.8 million people in Palestinian territories. In 2017, 5 million people. So, where's the genocide? The population nearly doubled in 20 years. You can go back further, to a UN estimate of 44k live births per year in 1950-1955 which is now at 144k live births per year in 2010-15.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_the_Palestinian_territories

In what world is it genocide or ethnic cleansing when the population keeps getting larger? Be glad that Israel is the one with the power and the rest of the civilized world should ensure that it stays that way.

On May 15 2018 09:32 micronesia wrote:



I agree the logic behind that policy about what ammo to use when doesn't really make sense. On the other hand, you seem to be ignoring the fact that large groups of people, some of whom have been quoted as saying they are going to slaughter Israelis, are attempting to break into Israel. So to answer your question, the short answer as to why most of those people got killed today, is because they tried to bust through a military checkpoint into another nation after being told not to. That doesn't tell the whole story, but it seems to me to point out why your original question towards RenSC2 was not really reasonable

On May 15 2018 08:56 zlefin wrote:


what is happening does not match the definition you provided. "destruction of a group"
if Israel were committing genocide, the number of palestinians would not be increasing at such a rapid rate. I see no sign of the palestinians being destroyed as a group.

On May 15 2018 11:18 Rebs wrote:



So then heres a question. What if those fences have been put up illegally and the fences they are busting through are not actually recognized by anyone (except the US now I presume) as Israels territory?

You dont need me to source this for you, just google Isreal, fence and encroachment and you will be inundated with literature covering this going back 20 years.

I also like the the phrasing "after being told not to" its literally the identical sort of phrasing that propped up during the defense of apartheid regimes in some of the interview and docs of footage going back to that era from White South Africans. I am not suggesting thats how you meant it btw, just as something to think about.

All of this not withstanding ofcourse the obviously pointed out fact, that dudes with cleavers, hatchets and literally driven to the edge of madness are 0 threat to snipers and automatic weapons.

Hundreds arrested as activists pick up where Martin Luther King left off

Hundreds of low-wage workers, faith leaders, civil rights organizers and liberal activists were arrested in demonstrations in Washington and outside statehouses across the US on Monday as they resumed the work Martin Luther King left unfinished.

Fifty years after King launched the Poor People’s Campaign against economic inequality, militarism and racial injustice, demonstrators revived that fight, kicking off 40 days of nonviolent action.

The new effort, The Poor People’s Campaign: A National Call for Moral Revival, is being led by co-chairs William Barber, a pastor at Greenleaf Christian Church in Goldsboro, North Carolina, and Liz Theoharis, an ordained minister and anti-poverty campaigner from New York City.

In Washington, the group gathered on the lawn outside the US Capitol to hear Barber declare: “Something’s wrong in America.”

Their action on Monday, Barber continued, was not just a commemoration of King’s anti-poverty efforts, it was a new call-to-arms.

“We are here to have a reconsecration and a re-engagement because you do not commemorate the death of [a] prophet,” Barber said, his voice building as he spoke. “You go to where they were killed, reach down in the blood, pick up your baton and carry it the next round of the way. Now who’s ready?”

On May 15 2018 02:00 Plansix wrote:

Israel has been trying to force them to leave for decades. They won’t. That isn’t going to change without bloodshed. And considering the current stance of refugees in the US and EU, no one is going to accept them anyways.

Also, that is almost half the population of Sweden. It isn’t a huge task. It would be the single largest relocation of a human population in modern history. Maybe all of history.

On May 15 2018 12:19 Falling wrote:

Huge, but not impossible. 900,000 Jews exited North Africa and the Arab countries. Some 600,000 went to Israel, and 235,000 went to France. Places like Algeria went from 140,000 Jews to 1000 twenty-four years later to much pretty much none at all today. It's not impossible to leave: my people were chased up and down Europe for most of our history until we switched continents.