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On October 07 2019 22:07 Excludos wrote:Show nested quote +On October 07 2019 19:27 iPlaY.NettleS wrote:On October 07 2019 17:43 Nouar wrote:
Aaaand Drumpf just abandoned the Kurds in Syria by officially allowing Turkey, their enemy, to invade the part of Syria where they are fighting with the backing of the US. US forces are due to withdraw, to let Turkey manage the area (and war prisoners).
Way to be a traitor to your allies. Are we on the verge of anti-Trumpers pushing the narrative that Drumpf needs to be more interventionist in foreign wars? After previously collapsing in a crying heap after the election claiming Drumpf would start World War III. Nothing would surprise me, I've just finished reading a vox article from three years ago claiming that the Libyan intervention was a success.Forget about the slave trade reopening and the flood of migrants to Europe that it caused. What is this lala land you're talking about where being against war also means you support leaving your allies in the dust, creating more terrorism in the process? We've been through this process before, it's the exact same scenario that created al-qaeda and isis before. We know where it leads, so why the fuck would anyone support repeating this horrible history a third time? Being anti war has nothing to do with taking care of your allies. Jesus christ the logical leap sometimes..
Its times like this where I think that doing this over and over again is by design. Its like they dont actually want an end to terror threats in the area. Make sure those places are fucked up well and good for as long as possible if not forever.
Thats like literally the only logical conclusion at this point.
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Northern Ireland26225 Posts
On October 08 2019 03:06 Rebs wrote:Show nested quote +On October 07 2019 22:07 Excludos wrote:On October 07 2019 19:27 iPlaY.NettleS wrote:On October 07 2019 17:43 Nouar wrote:
Aaaand Drumpf just abandoned the Kurds in Syria by officially allowing Turkey, their enemy, to invade the part of Syria where they are fighting with the backing of the US. US forces are due to withdraw, to let Turkey manage the area (and war prisoners).
Way to be a traitor to your allies. Are we on the verge of anti-Trumpers pushing the narrative that Drumpf needs to be more interventionist in foreign wars? After previously collapsing in a crying heap after the election claiming Drumpf would start World War III. Nothing would surprise me, I've just finished reading a vox article from three years ago claiming that the Libyan intervention was a success.Forget about the slave trade reopening and the flood of migrants to Europe that it caused. What is this lala land you're talking about where being against war also means you support leaving your allies in the dust, creating more terrorism in the process? We've been through this process before, it's the exact same scenario that created al-qaeda and isis before. We know where it leads, so why the fuck would anyone support repeating this horrible history a third time? Being anti war has nothing to do with taking care of your allies. Jesus christ the logical leap sometimes.. Its times like this where I think that doing this over and over again is by design. Its like they dont actually want an end to terror threats in the area. Make sure those places are fucked up well and good for as long as possible if not forever. Thats like literally the only logical conclusion at this point.
I can’t say that makes any kind of sense though, there are so many negative externalities to deal with with some regions of the world in such a state.
Although as you observe, if we’re to analyse certain actions that’s really the logical conclusion.
I would say there’s a bit of a cyclical thing going on as well. There’s periods of interventionist policy, the public shifts against it eventually, then subsequent policy arguably isn’t interventionist enough, or doesn’t ‘finish what was started’ so to speak.
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Lefties say they want less war, and then we make less war and they freak out! Typical!
We are taking so much war out of Syria, the worst kind of war, the kind of war that kills people, babies.
We're putting it on ships and we're taking it right out of there. The biggest, most tremendous ships with steam slingshots.
They can slingshot the war right into the sun with magnificent steam to turn the war into energy that will give us Americans the best, cleanest light and sunshine.
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On October 08 2019 03:23 mikedebo wrote:
Lefties say they want less war, and then we make less war and they freak out! Typical!
We are taking so much war out of Syria, the worst kind of war, the kind of war that kills people, babies.
We're putting it on ships and we're taking it right out of there. The biggest, most tremendous ships with steam slingshots.
They can slingshot the war right into the sun with magnificent steam to turn the war into energy that will give us Americans the best, cleanest light and sunshine.
You should be president.
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On October 08 2019 03:23 mikedebo wrote:
Lefties say they want less war, and then we make less war and they freak out! Typical!
We are taking so much war out of Syria, the worst kind of war, the kind of war that kills people, babies.
We're putting it on ships and we're taking it right out of there. The biggest, most tremendous ships with steam slingshots.
They can slingshot the war right into the sun with magnificent steam to turn the war into energy that will give us Americans the best, cleanest light and sunshine.
It took me longer than I want to admit to realize this was a joke....
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It really is amazing that the POTUS can say something like
As I have stated strongly before, and just to reiterate, if Turkey does anything that I, in my great and unmatched wisdom, consider to be off limits, I will totally destroy and obliterate the Economy of Turkey (I’ve done before!). They must, with Europe and others, watch over...
on Twitter. There will be so many graduate theses about this man in so many different disciplines. This actually reads like a tweet someone would make parodying the man, it's incredible. And this is a mouthpiece of official government communications (except when it isn't for convenience sake).
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On October 08 2019 03:30 Simberto wrote:Show nested quote +On October 08 2019 03:23 mikedebo wrote:
Lefties say they want less war, and then we make less war and they freak out! Typical!
We are taking so much war out of Syria, the worst kind of war, the kind of war that kills people, babies.
We're putting it on ships and we're taking it right out of there. The biggest, most tremendous ships with steam slingshots.
They can slingshot the war right into the sun with magnificent steam to turn the war into energy that will give us Americans the best, cleanest light and sunshine. You should be president.
He has to compete with this guy though:
As I have stated strongly before, and just to reiterate, if Turkey does anything that I, in my great and unmatched wisdom, consider to be off limits, I will totally destroy and obliterate the Economy of Turkey (I’ve done before!). They must, with Europe and others, watch over the captured ISIS fighters and families. The U.S. has done far more than anyone could have ever expected, including the capture of 100% of the ISIS Caliphate. It is time now for others in the region, some of great wealth, to protect their own territory. THE USA IS GREAT!
Which one is the greater parody? The sad thing is that one of them is not...
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On October 08 2019 04:15 Dangermousecatdog wrote:Show nested quote +On October 08 2019 03:30 Simberto wrote:On October 08 2019 03:23 mikedebo wrote:
Lefties say they want less war, and then we make less war and they freak out! Typical!
We are taking so much war out of Syria, the worst kind of war, the kind of war that kills people, babies.
We're putting it on ships and we're taking it right out of there. The biggest, most tremendous ships with steam slingshots.
They can slingshot the war right into the sun with magnificent steam to turn the war into energy that will give us Americans the best, cleanest light and sunshine. You should be president. He has to compete with this guy though: Show nested quote +As I have stated strongly before, and just to reiterate, if Turkey does anything that I, in my great and unmatched wisdom, consider to be off limits, I will totally destroy and obliterate the Economy of Turkey (I’ve done before!). They must, with Europe and others, watch over the captured ISIS fighters and families. The U.S. has done far more than anyone could have ever expected, including the capture of 100% of the ISIS Caliphate. It is time now for others in the region, some of great wealth, to protect their own territory. THE USA IS GREAT! Which one is the greater parody? The sad thing is that one of them is not...
While I find it enjoyable to channel Trump, I'm bad at it. The issue is that I can at best mimic the insane stuff he's said before, but he's constantly finding ways to say even more insane garbage with every new day. I can't possibly keep up.
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On October 08 2019 03:12 Wombat_NI wrote:Show nested quote +On October 08 2019 03:06 Rebs wrote:On October 07 2019 22:07 Excludos wrote:On October 07 2019 19:27 iPlaY.NettleS wrote:On October 07 2019 17:43 Nouar wrote:
Aaaand Drumpf just abandoned the Kurds in Syria by officially allowing Turkey, their enemy, to invade the part of Syria where they are fighting with the backing of the US. US forces are due to withdraw, to let Turkey manage the area (and war prisoners).
Way to be a traitor to your allies. Are we on the verge of anti-Trumpers pushing the narrative that Drumpf needs to be more interventionist in foreign wars? After previously collapsing in a crying heap after the election claiming Drumpf would start World War III. Nothing would surprise me, I've just finished reading a vox article from three years ago claiming that the Libyan intervention was a success.Forget about the slave trade reopening and the flood of migrants to Europe that it caused. What is this lala land you're talking about where being against war also means you support leaving your allies in the dust, creating more terrorism in the process? We've been through this process before, it's the exact same scenario that created al-qaeda and isis before. We know where it leads, so why the fuck would anyone support repeating this horrible history a third time? Being anti war has nothing to do with taking care of your allies. Jesus christ the logical leap sometimes.. Its times like this where I think that doing this over and over again is by design. Its like they dont actually want an end to terror threats in the area. Make sure those places are fucked up well and good for as long as possible if not forever. Thats like literally the only logical conclusion at this point. I can’t say that makes any kind of sense though, there are so many negative externalities to deal with with some regions of the world in such a state. Although as you observe, if we’re to analyse certain actions that’s really the logical conclusion. I would say there’s a bit of a cyclical thing going on as well. There’s periods of interventionist policy, the public shifts against it eventually, then subsequent policy arguably isn’t interventionist enough, or doesn’t ‘finish what was started’ so to speak.
You are correct, it makes no sense. Unless you are willing to admit that there actions are just incomprehensibly evil because they surely arent that stupid, and then you get to that conclusion.
And the reason I make that statement, is because while I dont genuinely believe it. People who do make conclusions or like to make conclusions in those parts of the world will make this one and in the absence of a better explanation that becomes the narrative. And once its the narrative, now you got enemies for reals and I dont mean just the fragmented figher groups.
It also stunts recovery for those places because the ones shaping the narrative take it to the other extreme and just blame the U.S for everything with zero introspection because the trust deficit is irrecoverable at the point so it must be all America's fault. It just perma fucks everything.
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United States43448 Posts
On October 08 2019 02:41 ZerOCoolSC2 wrote:
Could this be kushner's plan for peace in the middle east? I think we need to look at all the angles here folks.
Kushner’s plan was that if trillions of dollars were churned into the Middle East then that might stimulate some jobs. He didn’t find any dollars to churn in and he doesn’t know anyone willing to do it but for a large fee a consulting firm were willing to support his assertion that being gainfully employed for lots of money makes people more peaceful.
It’s like solving loneliness with a paper showing that a committed and fulfilling relationship would help. Maybe he thought it was a math problem where he just needs to demonstrate that it is solvable and then the rest can be left as an exercise.
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United States43448 Posts
I’m curious what it means when the US President claims to have done destroyed and obliterated THE ECONOMY OF TURKEY before. Syntax his.
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On October 08 2019 04:15 Dangermousecatdog wrote:Show nested quote +On October 08 2019 03:30 Simberto wrote:On October 08 2019 03:23 mikedebo wrote:
Lefties say they want less war, and then we make less war and they freak out! Typical!
We are taking so much war out of Syria, the worst kind of war, the kind of war that kills people, babies.
We're putting it on ships and we're taking it right out of there. The biggest, most tremendous ships with steam slingshots.
They can slingshot the war right into the sun with magnificent steam to turn the war into energy that will give us Americans the best, cleanest light and sunshine. You should be president. He has to compete with this guy though: Show nested quote +As I have stated strongly before, and just to reiterate, if Turkey does anything that I, in my great and unmatched wisdom, consider to be off limits, I will totally destroy and obliterate the Economy of Turkey (I’ve done before!). They must, with Europe and others, watch over the captured ISIS fighters and families. The U.S. has done far more than anyone could have ever expected, including the capture of 100% of the ISIS Caliphate. It is time now for others in the region, some of great wealth, to protect their own territory. THE USA IS GREAT! Which one is the greater parody? The sad thing is that one of them is not...
I saw someone on Twitter say that Trump tweet could have been quote by a Dragonball Z villain and it would have made just as much sense, which is both a pretty funny observation but also kinda scary.
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On October 07 2019 21:51 Nouar wrote:Show nested quote +On October 07 2019 19:27 iPlaY.NettleS wrote:On October 07 2019 17:43 Nouar wrote:
Aaaand Trump just abandoned the Kurds in Syria by officially allowing Turkey, their enemy, to invade the part of Syria where they are fighting with the backing of the US. US forces are due to withdraw, to let Turkey manage the area (and war prisoners).
Way to be a traitor to your allies. Are we on the verge of anti-Trumpers pushing the narrative that Trump needs to be more interventionist in foreign wars? After previously collapsing in a crying heap after the election claiming Trump would start World War III. Nothing would surprise me, I've just finished reading a vox article from three years ago claiming that the Libyan intervention was a success.Forget about the slave trade reopening and the flood of migrants to Europe that it caused. The area is a mess. Pull back if you want after having been lukewarm for years (both admins), but tell Turkey that if they do anything weird to kurds, there will be retaliation.
He literally did that.
Trump inherited a bunch of foreign policy disasters from Obama and Bush.
Tweet yesterday ‘It is time for us to get out of these ridiculous endless wars, many of them tribal and bring our troops home’.
I support that policy, and I supported it when Ron Paul said it back in the 08 and 12 campaigns.I’m sure the troops agree with it as well.Easy to be an armchair general, bit tougher when you are actually on the ground there.
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Pretty much the entire senate, it seems, is of one mind on this so we'll see what they can do. Lindsey Graham was making noise about having a veto-proof majority to hit Turkey economically should they do anything out of line (I'm sure they will). This is one of the many problems conservatives had with Trump when he was running. Despite all the talk about being a madman his view of America's role in the world could leave us quite weak and without allies. Everyone is pushing the US, at some point it's time to push back.
Still, it really is a sight to see Congress so concerned and maybe even willing to go over Trump's had (as they have in the past) on foreign policy and national security, two of the presidency's strongest domains. When will they take some of their domestic power back? Republicans don't want to give it up now that they have it and the Democrats don't want to take it away because they want to use it next (and they have a more exalted view of the presidency anyways).
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Here's thought for the thread: I wonder if democracy will continue to make sense as we move into the 21st century and see greater changes and disruptions at faster rates. I feel like the masses just are not equipped to make educated, rational decisions, and its been reflected starkly over the past few years:
1. Debacles in some of the most prominent democracies, with Brexit and Trump in UK and USA
2. More hard-liners, right-wing, anti-science leaders being elected worldwide
3. Heck, some people even argue that China would be more aggressive if it was a democracy, and that the CCP actually restrains some of the nationalist fervor (e.g., 2012 anti-Japanese protests)
For me personally, I'm college educated (which is a privilege that not everyone gets), and I'll be the first to admit that there's tons of policy areas where I have no expertise on, nor could I tell you which candidate has the best policy. Do we really want societies where increasingly fragmented and polarized people are just making "gut decisions"?
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democracy has never made much sense in my opinion. i dont think anyone would be deluded enough to think that democracy is the perfect system. the flaws of democracy have been around since forever, its only becoming more evident now because the "masses" are no longer getting their information from one source.
youre quite right that most people in any given democracy dont have the education or the wisdom to make a reasonable call on what policies should be implemented and who should be elected to represent them. unfortunately any debate about changing the political system always includes a discussion about human rights, and democracy is the best answer to that. the only solution therefore to making sure democracy at least does its job is to make sure your population is as well educated as possible, but that is a pretty damn tall order to begin with.
this statement is probably going to be pretty controversial but im of the opinion a dictatorship is the ideal system over democracy. the only problem with a dictatorship is youre never gonna find that perfect leader who does everything right for your country and its people. youre looking for the kind of person that can only exist in fairy tales or in movies like the dark knight. not only that, but now people generally arent as submissive to authority and order as they were back in the days.
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I think the democracy argument often boils down to:
Democracy is the worst form of government, except for all the others.
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Depends what you guys want to do with politics. I don't see politics as an effort to make the best decision, I see politics as an effort to organize society and to allocate power. Democracy isn't great because you can vote against the fascists or bad because you can vote for Brexit, democracy is great because it fights back against a societal power structure and those things are very, if I may use a technical term, bad. In that vision democracy isn't the least bad system, it's absurdly good. The more democracy the better.
It's an interesting test btw. If you're a liberal and/or a conservative, you have no very good reason to like democracy, it's more or less an obstacle. And yet most people still say they do, and I genuinely think they do, I don't think it's just political correctness or whatever. It's one of the few things that give me hope, and one of the biggest victories of the left.
I want to respond to Bagration's post more directly, I'll do that later.
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On October 08 2019 14:29 evilfatsh1t wrote:
democracy has never made much sense in my opinion. i dont think anyone would be deluded enough to think that democracy is the perfect system. the flaws of democracy have been around since forever, its only becoming more evident now because the "masses" are no longer getting their information from one source.
youre quite right that most people in any given democracy dont have the education or the wisdom to make a reasonable call on what policies should be implemented and who should be elected to represent them. unfortunately any debate about changing the political system always includes a discussion about human rights, and democracy is the best answer to that. the only solution therefore to making sure democracy at least does its job is to make sure your population is as well educated as possible, but that is a pretty damn tall order to begin with.
this statement is probably going to be pretty controversial but im of the opinion a dictatorship is the ideal system over democracy. the only problem with a dictatorship is youre never gonna find that perfect leader who does everything right for your country and its people. youre looking for the kind of person that can only exist in fairy tales or in movies like the dark knight. not only that, but now people generally arent as submissive to authority and order as they were back in the days.
My mother grew up in a dictatorship. So I heard all about how much fun it is when there is no separation of power, no rule of law and no freedom of speech. When decisions are only taken in the interest of the ones in power, when you can get arrested, tortured and killed when you say something that the power dislikes.
The problem with dictatorship is not that it's hard to find a really good dictator, it that it's a dictatorship. It's a system built on force without legitimacy with nothing to stop power abuse. Democracy is not just a way to chose a leader it's a way to ensure the state serve the citizens and not the other way round. And it works amazingly well.
Which is why Canada, Norway, Australia, Germany and other functional democracies are probably the best and fairest place to live not only today but in human history.
The only problem with democracy is that it's fragile and requires its citizens to defend it. If our generation starts to say that it sucks and dictatorship is better, it won't last long. So your statement is not controversial, it's false and dangerous.
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EPT
