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US Politics Mega-thread - Page 1840

Forum Index > General Forum
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Now that we have a new thread, in order to ensure that this thread continues to meet TL standards and follows the proper guidelines, we will be enforcing the rules in the OP more strictly. Be sure to give them a complete and thorough read before posting!

NOTE: When providing a source, please provide a very brief summary on what it's about and what purpose it adds to the discussion. The supporting statement should clearly explain why the subject is relevant and needs to be discussed. Please follow this rule especially for tweets.

Your supporting statement should always come BEFORE you provide the source.


If you have any questions, comments, concern, or feedback regarding the USPMT, then please use this thread: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/website-feedback/510156-us-politics-thread
Liquid`Drone
Profile Joined September 2002
Norway28665 Posts
October 06 2019 22:55 GMT
#36781
That chart looks pretty good. Use the ones that are furthest to the top middle and you're as good as you can get.
Moderator
JimmiC
Profile Blog Joined May 2011
Canada22817 Posts
October 06 2019 22:56 GMT
#36782
--- Nuked ---
WombaT
Profile Blog Joined May 2010
Northern Ireland25321 Posts
October 06 2019 23:10 GMT
#36783
On October 07 2019 07:08 LemOn wrote:
Show nested quote +
On October 05 2019 10:20 Wombat_NI wrote:
On October 05 2019 09:35 JimmiC wrote:
On October 05 2019 08:57 Ben... wrote:
On October 05 2019 08:25 Artisreal wrote:
If fox should drop him, is that still the case though?

This is the ultimate question. There have been rumours of Fox, and more specifically Murdoch's sons, becoming increasingly uncomfortable with what has happened with Fox essentially being a propaganda arm of the administration. We've already seen several of the hosts start to slightly shift away from purely defending Trump, especially in the last week or two with all of this Ukraine news. And despite having strong viewership numbers, Fox has been having issues with advertisers, especially on some of their more controversial shows like Tucker Carlson and Laura Ingraham. I would imagine there is a breaking point for Fox where either ethically or from a business perspective, supporting Trump no longer can be justified.

This Vanity Fair piece sheds a bit of light on the issue. Interestingly, Paul Ryan is on the board for Fox, and he has been apparently suggesting they move away from Trump.

I think they will be able to be "ok" with the ethics as long as the advertisers keep shelling out. They will be able to tell themselves they are just being the other voice to the Dem owned news media or whatever. If the money stops flowing, and the share prices start to drop that is when their "ethics" will kick in and they will claim it was their choice and had nothing to do with the $$$$.

They can absolutely do that, and arguably it’s an important alternative stance to have, people do have other moral stances and believe other things.

Of late they’ve been a Trump mouthpiece, not even critical of him when his actions go against their ostensible positions.

There should be an openly conversative leaning mainstream outlet in the States, for there not to be would be strange. What is strange is a slavish devotion to Trump in particular, even when he goes against stock conservative ideals.

If Fox operates as an open conservative media outlet, that holds public officials to account on that basis then that’s one thing. That they just don’t when it comes to Trump is the main problem I have with them.


They are COMMERCIAL institutions, they ponder to their audience for money, and vast majority of their audience voted for trump and want to be validated.

It's the same what CNN does - both are worthless for actual unbiased information.

If the station has viewerships there's no way they will struggle to find advertisers. They drop specific faces for obvious most advertiser unfriendly behavior (O'Reilly).


It's the US media model and will remain to be - for normal people ignoring CNN+FOX and/or watching them purely for entertainment is the way to go

I am aware, most media the world over is commercial to some degree. Fox is so obviously biased that it’s basically fine IMO, they wear their hearts on their sleeves, you have to be basically an idiot to not see their slant.

My point was specifically that there’s a difference between being a conservative news outlet, and being a pro-Trump propaganda outlet.

My expectation of a conservative leaning outlet is for it to apply its lens to issues, including when a President isn’t adhering to those values, which they basically do not do.

I have no expectation on unbiased media existing, certain standards yes but people do have different world views and will focus on different things and angles.

CNN frequently fails to be unbiased because of its model of ‘here’s one talking head from each side’, whereas the veracity of all one side’s argument is dubious but they give them the same air space anyway.

'You'll always be the cuddly marsupial of my heart, despite the inherent flaws of your ancestry' - Squat
ShambhalaWar
Profile Joined August 2013
United States930 Posts
October 06 2019 23:14 GMT
#36784
On October 07 2019 07:16 LemOn wrote:
Show nested quote +
On October 05 2019 19:11 Biff The Understudy wrote:
On October 05 2019 11:32 iPlaY.NettleS wrote:
On October 04 2019 16:58 Taelshin wrote:
@Biff, I looked at that link, its literally just the clip from ABC news with Pelosi and Stephanopoulos as described in NettleS post. What exactly is your issue with it? You can find clips from every main stream media source on random YT channels, if there's no added commentary I'm unsure why it matters.

Feels like a desperate deflection to avoid actually addressing what Nettle's wrote in his post. Also I tried to find the full interview from ABC's YT channel but it seem's they themselves have clipped it, Perhaps in time they will release the full thing.

Thank you, yes.It was literally just a 30 second ABC clip no commentary.I chose that one since it was just 30 seconds as opposed to two-three minutes that others had - I thought people with short attention spans could watch it.Perhaps not.

Tl;dr: Watch the source before the content and if the source is effing garbage, find a source that is not. And again, if you want us to think that you are worth taking seriously, don't systematically post stuff from propaganda media spreading conspiracy theories.

What is a reliable source in the US I'd like to know
It certainly isn't any of the big cable news
https://www.adfontesmedia.com
They say AP + reuters is up there but still reliability rating of 56 which I assume is out of a 100?

It's really difficult to get reliable sources on anything
Even that White house transcript seemed way too polished like Trump's doctor note, agencies have biases too


https://www.democracynow.org

Amy Goodman is a solid source, plus all the anchors on the show.

What they choose to cover is usually left leaning, but the reporting is solid. And (most importantly) they choose to cover topics that the mainstream media won't cover do the influence of money in of money in advertising and special interests. The show runs on https://freespeech.org which is a completely donation based and funded by actual people news station.

For example, it took the corporate media (including NPR) months to begin to cover the Dakota access pipeline story, but democracy now was there from the start. In fact, I think all of the early videos of the crap that happened at the event were recorded by their crew (guard dogs attacking people).

The can cover any material they want because they aren't bought out... Another reason why Sanders would make an amazing president, he is also not bought.
Nouar
Profile Joined May 2009
France3270 Posts
Last Edited: 2019-10-07 08:43:51
October 07 2019 08:43 GMT
#36785
Aaaand Trump just abandoned the Kurds in Syria by officially allowing Turkey, their enemy, to invade the part of Syria where they are fighting with the backing of the US. US forces are due to withdraw, to let Turkey manage the area (and war prisoners).

Way to be a traitor to your allies.
NoiR
Gorsameth
Profile Joined April 2010
Netherlands21684 Posts
October 07 2019 09:02 GMT
#36786
On October 07 2019 17:43 Nouar wrote:
Aaaand Trump just abandoned the Kurds in Syria by officially allowing Turkey, their enemy, to invade the part of Syria where they are fighting with the backing of the US. US forces are due to withdraw, to let Turkey manage the area (and war prisoners).

Way to be a traitor to your allies.
So we found the next region where terrorists attacking the US are going to come from?

It ignores such insignificant forces as time, entropy, and death
Fildun
Profile Joined December 2012
Netherlands4122 Posts
Last Edited: 2019-10-07 09:43:01
October 07 2019 09:39 GMT
#36787
The next 2-3 days will be crucial to the Syria endgame, both diplomatically and militarily. Kurds don't stand a chance without US air support so they'll want to surrender if they want to avoid thousand upon thousands of casualties, but to who? Turkey or Assad? And if they surrender to Assad, what will Turkey, Russia and US do?

At the same time, Assad is starting a very hastily put together offensive towards Manbij as well, so maybe it'll be the race for IS territory between Kurds and Syrians all over again, except this time it's between Turks and Syrians about Kurdish territory.

On top of that if the Kurds get rolled up IS will reemerge from Al-Hol and other camps so thats gonna be an issue for sure.

Also, either the US have been planning this for months or Erdogan is playing Trump like a fiddle, because the US have been forcing the removal of Kurdish defences in the border zone for some time now.

Maybe it's in fact 200 IQ by Trump because he gets another IS to roll up just before election time.
iPlaY.NettleS
Profile Blog Joined June 2010
Australia4332 Posts
October 07 2019 10:27 GMT
#36788
On October 07 2019 17:43 Nouar wrote:
Aaaand Trump just abandoned the Kurds in Syria by officially allowing Turkey, their enemy, to invade the part of Syria where they are fighting with the backing of the US. US forces are due to withdraw, to let Turkey manage the area (and war prisoners).

Way to be a traitor to your allies.

Are we on the verge of anti-Trumpers pushing the narrative that Trump needs to be more interventionist in foreign wars? After previously collapsing in a crying heap after the election claiming Trump would start World War III.

Nothing would surprise me, I've just finished reading a vox article from three years ago claiming that the Libyan intervention was a success.Forget about the slave trade reopening and the flood of migrants to Europe that it caused.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e7PvoI6gvQs
Dangermousecatdog
Profile Joined December 2010
United Kingdom7084 Posts
Last Edited: 2019-10-07 10:46:15
October 07 2019 10:44 GMT
#36789
On October 07 2019 07:56 JimmiC wrote:
It is out of 64, it says as much.

And the methodology is clear you just have to click on "methodology".

+ Show Spoiler +
Methodology Summary

Ad Fontes Media’s ranking method has evolved from its initial form, in which its Founder, Vanessa Otero, performed the rankings, to its current method of multi-analyst content analysis ratings. Ad Fontes finished its first extensive multi-analyst content ratings research project in June 2019, and the current version of the Media Bias Chart is generated from those ratings plus ongoing additional ratings. See the White Paper about this project here.

Since the first Media Bias Chart was launched, people have asked for more data and transparency about the news source ratings. In response, we conducted our first large content analysis ratings project. The first iteration of this ratings project was conducted to provide a large enough initial set of rankings to populate the Media Bias Chart reasonably well. Extensive details of that project, which ran from March to June 2019, are described in this white paper here, and are summarized in the next few paragraphs.

During this project, nearly 1800 individual articles and TV news shows were rated by at least three analysts with different political views (left, right and center). We had 20 analysts, each analyst having analyzed about 370 articles and about 17 TV shows. Each analyst rated approximately three articles from each of the over 100 news sources available for viewing on the Chart. As a result, we have nearly 7,000 individual ratings.

The multi-person ranking per article was designed to minimize the impact of any one person’s political bias on the published ranking, and the breadth of coverage by each analyst over all of the sources was designed to enhance each analyst’s familiarity with sources across the spectrum.

The content ratings research project ran over a course of twelve weeks, with three study periods of three to four weeks each. The articles rated will covered a minimum of seven articles per source, but for some larger sources we rated up to over 80 articles.

The sample sets of articles and shows were pulled from sites three times throughout the project, and each time, all articles were pulled on the same day, meaning that they were from the same news cycle. The purpose of pulling all articles from the same day was so that analysts would be able to incorporate evaluations of bias by omission and bias by topic selection.

The type of rating we asked each analyst to provide was an overall coordinate ranking on the chart (i.e., “40, -12”). These rankings were based on the methodology shown and described in Ad Fontes Media’s grading rubrics as of early 2019 (which you may have seen on our website). The ranking methodology is rigorous and rule-based. There are many specific factors we take into account for both reliability and bias because there are many measurable indicators of each. Therefore, the ratings are not simply subjective opinion polling, but rather methodical content analysis. Overall source rankings are composite weighted rankings of the individual article and story scores.

We continue to refine our methodology as we discover ways to have analysts classify rating factors more consistently. Our analysts used the first versions of our analyst rating software interface. A version of this ratings software will soon be available for use by educators in classrooms. For educators interested in teaching students how to rate articles like Ad Fontes Media does, see here.

Methodology Deep-Dive

This process has evolved over time and with input from many thoughtful commentators and experts. You can read about how we got to this methodology over in this series of methodology posts (these are long—Vanessa will try to put them in a book eventually). If you have questions about why we now rank sources as described below, you will find a lot of the answers in those posts. You may also have questions about the taxonomy itself (like how we define “reliability” and “bias”). You’ll find a lot of those answers in those posts as well.

Before getting into the criteria (shown in rubric form below), it is helpful to understand some principles and caveats:

The main principle of Ad Fontes (which means “to the source” in Latin) is that we analyze content. We look as closely as possible at individual articles, shows, and stories, and analyze what we are looking at: pictures, headlines, and most importantly, sentences and words.
The overall source ranking is a result of a weighted average, algorithmic translation of article raw scores. Low quality and highly biased content weight the overall source down and outward. Further, the reach (ratings, popularity, etc.) of individual articles are weighted as well within each source. That means if a source’s low-quality and highly biased content is highly read or watched, it weights the overall source down even more. The exact weighting algorithm is not included here because it is proprietary. Aspects of what is disclosed here are patent pending.
The current rankings are based on a small sample size from each source. We believe these sample articles and shows are representative of their respective sources, but these rankings will certainly get more accurate as we rate more articles over time (you can help us with that here).
Keep in mind that this ratings system currently uses humans with subjective biases to rate things that are created by other humans with subjective biases and place them on an objective scale. That is inherently difficult, but can be done well and in a fair manner. There are other good models for doing something similar, such as grading standardized written exams (like AP tests and the bar exam), or judging athletic competitions (such as gymnastics and figure skating). You can get to good results as long as you have standards on how to judge many granular details, and have experts that are trained on such standards implementing them. We’ve begun to create that process here. Below are some of those granular details.
Formal Ratings Process

Our full article grading rubric shows each of the factors analysts are asked to consider before providing a final rating for reliability and bias. Displaying multiple factors in rubric form accomplishes a few things:

It shows the exact criteria and quantitative measures used to rate each article, which increases transparency;
It makes it easier to compile and record more data over time, which will eventually be of much value;
It creates safeguards against individual raters’ subjective political biases (including our own);
It allows results to be replicated by others.
Our current analyst team has received training on these ratings standards, and using multiple raters on particular articles allows averaging of scores to minimize effects of bias.

If it sounds like using this rating rubric with multiple raters per article is a lot of work, that’s because it is. Each analyst does not fill out an entire rubric in order to provide an overall rating; rather, each analyst uses it as a mental guide to consider each factor, and then provides a two-dimensional rating in the form of overall reliability and bias scores.

However, we have already been able to show that we get reasonably consistent ratings results by raters with diverging political views, so eventually, this ratings process can be automated and scaled up via machine learning forms of artificial intelligence. An important part of this scaling-up automation process will be quality checking the AI results against subjective ratings by humans to ensure the scoring and algorithms produce results consistent with human judgments. For example, we would have the same article subjectively rated on the chart by a panel of three humans, one who identifies as fairly right, one who identifies as fairly left, and one who identifies as centrist. These three ratings would be averaged for an overall subjective ranking, and a machine scored article would have to match that average ranking. Aspects of this process are patent pending.

Article and Show Rating Methodologies

Note that there are different, additional criteria that go into rating TV shows as compared to written articles. First I’ll discuss the article rating methodology because the show rating methodology uses the article rating methodology as a first step and adds additional show ranking criteria, which mostly deals with the quality and purpose of show guests. (See both rubrics below)

Article Rating Methodology


Step 1: Rubric Grading

Below is an article grading rubric that we use to guide the rating of articles. As shown, there are two main parts, one for a quality (now known as “reliability”)score and one for a bias score.

Quality

Element scores: Each can be evaluated on a scale of 1-8, which corresponds to the vertical categories on the chart.
Sentence scores: Each sentence (or sometimes multiple sentences) can be evaluated for both Veracity (1 being completely true and 5 being completely false) and Expression (1 being a fact statement and 5 being an opinion statement).. For more on these scales, see here.
Unfairness instances: We look for discrete unfairness instances. For more on what constitutes something being unfair, see here.


Bias

Topic Selection and/or Presentation: The topic itself, and how it is initially presented in the headline, categorized in one of the seven horizontal categories on the chart (MEL=Most Extreme Left, HPL=Hyper-Partisan Left, etc.). This is one of the ways to measure bias by omission. Here, we categorize a topic in part by what it means that the source covered this topic as opposed to other available topics covered in other sources.
Sentence Metrics: Not every sentence contains instances of bias related to the three types listed here, which are biases based on “political position,” “characterization,” and “terminology.” Sometimes these instances overlap. Discrete instances throughout the article are considered.
Comparison: The overall bias is scored in comparison to other known articles about the subject. This is a second way (and probably most important way) we measure bias by omission. Comparison is done in view of other contemporaneous stories about the same topic, and bias can be determined when we know all the possible facts that could reasonably be covered in a story.
Step 2: Weighting and Overall Score

Analysts are asked to consider each factor they evaluated and consider whether any particular factors showed extremely low reliability or extreme bias. For example, misleading or false statements are factors that show extremely low reliability, and name-calling or personal attacks are factors that show extreme bias. If so, analysts are instructed to weight their overall scores downward or outward in view of those factors. Otherwise, the individual factors may be averaged to provide an overall reliability and bias score.

Note: The following rubric is subject to copyright.



Show Rating Methodology
Step 1: Rubric Grading

Grading TV shows (or video, e.g., YouTube shows) involves grading everything according to the Article Grading Rubric but also adds the Show Grading Rubric shown below.

There are a couple of major format differences between articles and shows, the first of which is that there are many more visual elements (titles, graphics, ledes, and chyrons), each of which may be scored. The second is that a major component of most cable news shows are guest interactions, which is what the show grading rubric focuses on. It is critically important to individually rate the Type, Political Stance, and Subject Matter Expertise of each guest, as well as the Host Posture towards each guest. Although at first glance, many cable news shows seem to follow the same format, these guest metrics provide the greatest insight into the differences in quality and bias between shows.

I’ve received many comments to the effect of “I can tell you are biased because Fox and MSNBC (or Fox and CNN) are not at similar places on opposite sides of the chart.” I disagree with the notion that each of these networks should simply be viewed as different sides of the same coin, the only difference being political position. Given the way we rate the content of these shows, it is highly improbable that dozens of hours of programming each day on each network would have very similar scores. It is illogical to assume they would, given that the producers of the shows have different goals, are trying to fill different niches, and are trying to appeal to different audiences.

In order to compete in the news business, many sources purposely try to differentiate themselves from similar sources. Cable news hosts themselves are typically employed to bring a particular kind of contribution that is unique based on their styles, backgrounds, and viewpoints, which naturally results in different content analysis rankings by our metrics.

Guest Type:

“Guest” is a term for anyone who appears on the show who is not a host. These guests can be called any number of titles depending on the show. They can include on-site reporters, who report in a traditional style seen on network evening news programs or local new programs, but a large number of guests on cable news shows are commentators, and are called “contributors,” “analysts,” “interviewees,” etc. Many shows commonly have up to ten such guests per show, which is why there are ten columns on the rubric. Of the guest types listed (politician, journalist, paid contributor, etc.), none are necessarily indicative of quality of bias on their own.

Quality and bias of guest appearances are instead determined by the “guest type” in conjunction with each of the other metrics for each guest.

Guest Political Stance on Subject:

A guest’s political stance on a particular subject, if known or described during the guest appearance, is rated according to the horizontal scale (Most Extreme, Hyper-partisan, Neutral, etc.). It is key to rate the stance of the guest on the particular issue at the particular time of the appearance, rather than to rate the stance based on a person’s historical or reputational affiliation, or a broad categorization of a person’s political leanings, which is a less accurate basis for rating bias of a guest appearance. That is, it is less accurate to say “this person is liberal (or conservative)” than to say “this person took this liberal (or conservative) stance at this time.” People and their histories are complex.

For politicians, political stances on particular issues are often publicly available information via their platform or other statement of issues on their websites, and their historical/reputational stances are often the same as their stances during a particular appearance. However, it is especially important to distinguish between a guest’s current stances and past affiliations, particularly during times of rapid change in politics. For example, if the current Governor of Ohio, John Kasich, appears on a show and fairly criticizes President Trump for a particular statement or action, such a stance should be rated as neutral or skews left, instead of using his party affiliation (Republican) to rate his stance as skews right. However if he was talking about his positions on abortion or taxes, his stance would likely be rated as skews right (based on such stated right-leaning positions on Kasich’s website).

Guest Expertise on Subject Matter

This rating takes into account both the expertise of the guest as well as the subject matter about which the guest is asked to speak. An “expert” does not necessarily have to have particular titles, degrees, or ranks. Rather, “expertise” is defined here as the ability to provide unique insight on a topic based on experience. Although many guests have expertise and a title, degree, and/or rank, others have expertise by virtue of a particular experience instead. For example, an ordinary person who has experienced addiction to opioids may have expertise on the subject of “how opioid addiction can affect one’s life.” We can refer to this type of expert as an “anecdotal” expert. However, that same person may or may not have expertise on the related subject “what are the best ways to address the opioid epidemic,” and a different kind of expert may be a physician or someone with public health policy experience. We can refer to such an expert as a “credentialed” expert.

Expertise is rated on a scale of 1-5, as follows:

1: Unqualified to comment on subject matter

2: No more qualified to comment than any other avid political/news observer on political/news topic

3: Qualified on ordinarily complex topic or common experience

Qualified on very complex topic/Very qualified on ordinarily complex topic/Qualified on uncommon experience
Very qualified on very complex topic/ Very qualified on very uncommon experience
Host Posture Metric

The interaction between the guest and the host also impacts the bias of the guest appearance. For example, the bias present when a host is challenging a hyper-partisan guest is very different than the bias present when another host is sympathetic with the same hyper-partisan guest.

The scale, as shown below, identifies several types of host postures, each of which are fairly self-explanatory. They are somewhat listed in order of “worst” to “best,” but some postures, such as “challenging,” or “sympathetic” are not necessarily good or bad, and determinations of bias depend on the context.

Note: The following rubric is subject to copyright.



Step 2: Overall score.

Analysts may take combinations of multiple factors into account for an overall score. For example, if a guest is a politician, and has a hyper-partisan right stance, and the host simply provides a platform for that politician to advocate his or her opinion, that guest appearance will be rated as “hyper-partisan right, opinion.” If the same politician is on a different show in which the host takes a challenging posture toward the guest, the appearance may be rated as “neutral/balance, analysis.” If the host takes a hostile posture toward the same guest, the appearance may be rated as “skews left, unfair persuasion.” As one can surmise from the options shown in the rubric, there are many possible combinations of guest type, guest stance, guest expertise, and host posture.

Similar to how the article scoring works, analysts may weights certain factors or average them. For example, if a guest is unqualified for the subject matter and hyper-partisan, and the host takes a “cheerleading” posture, this combination would be weighted heavily downward and outward. Then the analysts provide scores as coordinates on the chart (e.g., 48, -18).

Data Availability

There are several layers of data that may be of interest to researchers, media organizations, and regular chart users. Our overall source ranking coordinates and individual article rankings (which are averages of the ratings for each of the three analysts who rated the article) are available for download on our main Media Bias Chart page here.

If you would like additional underlying data, for either commercial or non-commercial purposes, please contact us here.

Come on jimmy, I expect you to be smarter than that. But I guess you don't have basic statistical analysis skills they teach in school or something. To just go copy and paste a wall of text instead of the link, in order to convey information; which you clearly haven't bothered to read, towhich I already read by the way, which is why I wrote that "from what I can tell from what they have written, quality is scored out of 42, which is clearly wrong. the methedology isn't clear". We know it is out of 64, because the chart is out of 64, but the methodology looks like it is out of 42, which is clearly wrong because the highest scorer is above that anyways.

Besides, the methodology is inaccurate anyways, because what they care about is the conveying of news and whether it is accurate, or goes into analysis that could be conveyed as biased. It does not care at all about the main problem people have with Fox News which is the selective reporting of news, creating bubbles of people with selective news being fed to them. In theory as long as Fox news report the new article in an accurate manner without bias it would score highly in quality, which it doesn't anyways, but if it doesn't report it at all, it wouldn't get scored for it at all.

By the way Fox News, last year was regarded within "nonsense damaging to the public discourse", but this year is merely "some reliability issues and/or extremism." Likewise AP was solely within the highest quality of "news", along with 20 other high quality media sources, but this year none of them is solely within the highest quality box. The relative positions of the medias to each other is the same, but everything been squashed vertically together so the top and bottom of the graph is now empty, and all the boxes has changed too. Whatever their methodology is, not only is it opaque, it's clearly garbage and changes drastically from year to year.
Vivax
Profile Blog Joined April 2011
21977 Posts
Last Edited: 2019-10-07 11:46:56
October 07 2019 11:19 GMT
#36790
I wonder when the newspapers will be telling us about Erdo Khan marching in.

US had to pull out cause Turkey is backed by Russia. Keep your friends close and your enemies closer etc.

Trump just dropped a good morning tweet about the retreat.
ThaddeusK
Profile Joined July 2008
United States231 Posts
October 07 2019 11:50 GMT
#36791
On October 07 2019 19:27 iPlaY.NettleS wrote:
Show nested quote +
On October 07 2019 17:43 Nouar wrote:
Aaaand Trump just abandoned the Kurds in Syria by officially allowing Turkey, their enemy, to invade the part of Syria where they are fighting with the backing of the US. US forces are due to withdraw, to let Turkey manage the area (and war prisoners).

Way to be a traitor to your allies.

Are we on the verge of anti-Trumpers pushing the narrative that Trump needs to be more interventionist in foreign wars? After previously collapsing in a crying heap after the election claiming Trump would start World War III.

Nothing would surprise me, I've just finished reading a vox article from three years ago claiming that the Libyan intervention was a success.Forget about the slave trade reopening and the flood of migrants to Europe that it caused.


So are you going to make an actual argument that this is good, or just bitch about how other people should be doing it for you?
plated.rawr
Profile Blog Joined June 2008
Norway1676 Posts
Last Edited: 2019-10-07 12:36:07
October 07 2019 12:35 GMT
#36792
On October 07 2019 19:27 iPlaY.NettleS wrote:
Show nested quote +
On October 07 2019 17:43 Nouar wrote:
Aaaand Trump just abandoned the Kurds in Syria by officially allowing Turkey, their enemy, to invade the part of Syria where they are fighting with the backing of the US. US forces are due to withdraw, to let Turkey manage the area (and war prisoners).

Way to be a traitor to your allies.

Are we on the verge of anti-Trumpers pushing the narrative that Trump needs to be more interventionist in foreign wars? After previously collapsing in a crying heap after the election claiming Trump would start World War III.

Nothing would surprise me, I've just finished reading a vox article from three years ago claiming that the Libyan intervention was a success.Forget about the slave trade reopening and the flood of migrants to Europe that it caused.

There is no conflict here.

The anti-war movement is based on humanitarian principles. Avoiding war and instead using nonmilitary methods to reduce suffering is central here.

However

When there's already a war, it's too late to avoid war. Endring the war becomes the prime goal, but even so, humanitarianism is in the forefront. Pulling out as quick as possible without ensuring regional stability will lead to humanitarian disasters. Therefore, you have to stay until it is sane to leave.

The politicians on the right are eager to get into wars, like horny mansluts only out for their own pleasure. After their premature ejaculation, they want to grab their pants and head out, neverminding the wants of their partner, or the potential for consequence - in this metaphor, pregnancy.

The anti-war movement does not want war. However, it also wont abandon their responsibility when they are in one.
Savior broke my heart ;_; || twitch.tv/onnings
Nouar
Profile Joined May 2009
France3270 Posts
October 07 2019 12:51 GMT
#36793
On October 07 2019 19:27 iPlaY.NettleS wrote:
Show nested quote +
On October 07 2019 17:43 Nouar wrote:
Aaaand Trump just abandoned the Kurds in Syria by officially allowing Turkey, their enemy, to invade the part of Syria where they are fighting with the backing of the US. US forces are due to withdraw, to let Turkey manage the area (and war prisoners).

Way to be a traitor to your allies.

Are we on the verge of anti-Trumpers pushing the narrative that Trump needs to be more interventionist in foreign wars? After previously collapsing in a crying heap after the election claiming Trump would start World War III.

Nothing would surprise me, I've just finished reading a vox article from three years ago claiming that the Libyan intervention was a success.Forget about the slave trade reopening and the flood of migrants to Europe that it caused.


Oh, so you believe officially allowing a country (Turkey) to INVADE another country, in the exact area where their hereditary enemy is helping you fight, is a good thing? Let's allow China to military invade Hong Kong then. Fuck allies.

The area is a mess. Pull back if you want after having been lukewarm for years (both admins), but tell Turkey that if they do anything weird to kurds, there will be retaliation. Don't just say "gogogo, green light !" to the enemy of your Ally???
In the current case, you are actually making another enemy, very used to run guerilla and terrorism operations since they've been on the edge of survival for a century or more against said Turkey.
NoiR
Excludos
Profile Blog Joined April 2010
Norway8075 Posts
Last Edited: 2019-10-07 13:07:48
October 07 2019 13:07 GMT
#36794
On October 07 2019 19:27 iPlaY.NettleS wrote:
Show nested quote +
On October 07 2019 17:43 Nouar wrote:
Aaaand Trump just abandoned the Kurds in Syria by officially allowing Turkey, their enemy, to invade the part of Syria where they are fighting with the backing of the US. US forces are due to withdraw, to let Turkey manage the area (and war prisoners).

Way to be a traitor to your allies.

Are we on the verge of anti-Trumpers pushing the narrative that Trump needs to be more interventionist in foreign wars? After previously collapsing in a crying heap after the election claiming Trump would start World War III.

Nothing would surprise me, I've just finished reading a vox article from three years ago claiming that the Libyan intervention was a success.Forget about the slave trade reopening and the flood of migrants to Europe that it caused.


What is this lala land you're talking about where being against war also means you support leaving your allies in the dust, creating more terrorism in the process? We've been through this process before, it's the exact same scenario that created al-qaeda and isis before. We know where it leads, so why the fuck would anyone support repeating this horrible history a third time? Being anti war has nothing to do with taking care of your allies.

Jesus christ the logical leap sometimes..
Vivax
Profile Blog Joined April 2011
21977 Posts
October 07 2019 13:46 GMT
#36795
Trump talking about deep state on twitter. Conspiracy nutters confirmed right or is the US president insane?
JimmiC
Profile Blog Joined May 2011
Canada22817 Posts
October 07 2019 13:52 GMT
#36796
--- Nuked ---
JimmiC
Profile Blog Joined May 2011
Canada22817 Posts
October 07 2019 13:54 GMT
#36797
--- Nuked ---
Dangermousecatdog
Profile Joined December 2010
United Kingdom7084 Posts
October 07 2019 13:59 GMT
#36798
Methodology is so clear that you can't answer how the simple question of getting 64 out of 64. Nobody has expressed that they don't want to click on links.
Gorsameth
Profile Joined April 2010
Netherlands21684 Posts
October 07 2019 14:00 GMT
#36799
On October 07 2019 22:46 Vivax wrote:
Trump talking about deep state on twitter. Conspiracy nutters confirmed right or is the US president insane?
Have you been in a coma the last 3 years?
Yes, he is insane. He has been for years and puts it on display almost daily.
It ignores such insignificant forces as time, entropy, and death
JimmiC
Profile Blog Joined May 2011
Canada22817 Posts
October 07 2019 14:24 GMT
#36800
--- Nuked ---
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