EPTedit: and this is also where Democrats shoot themselves in the foot by immediately going to the most 11/10 reaction possible on almost every story, even before we have the facts.
US Politics Mega-thread - Page 1830
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Introvert
United States4825 Posts
edit: and this is also where Democrats shoot themselves in the foot by immediately going to the most 11/10 reaction possible on almost every story, even before we have the facts. | ||
micronesia
United States24701 Posts
edit: On the other hand, the media and various democrats have made obvious missteps so it's not all or nothing. | ||
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JimmiC
Canada22817 Posts
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WombaT
Northern Ireland25648 Posts
On September 28 2019 16:23 Biff The Understudy wrote: Yeah, but no, she was not, really. Trump is several order of magnitude more compromised than she ever was, and her corruption scandals are completely dwarfed by his. And already were at the time of the election for whoever bothered to pay attention. The fact that people believe such a thing really highlight that it’s really a question of image. Clinton is seen as disingenuous, unauthentic and insincere. Of course she has a part of responsibility there, but my point is that her wonkish, technocratic style ran straight into that idea that people who look and talk smart are probably trying to screw you. And of course you have a guy who openly lies and openly screw everyone around him over, and people see him as genuine and authentic because he talks like an uneducated six grader. And people like that. I feel Clinton is a poster girl for ‘legitimate’ corruption that is outside of the reach of most folk in any way and thus resented a lot. Trump is almost a roguish level of non-standard corruption, that people kind of begrudgingly admire, in the way people do with crime bosses. Only way I can reconcile the differing responses. Anyway For the record I’ve met Hillary Clinton, seemed a decent sort. Granted I was 8 at the time | ||
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GreenHorizons
United States23295 Posts
The "Pow Wow Chow" cookbook is pretty bad, but it turns out her story about her parents is deceitful too. Probably going to take a little time before it filters into corporate media, but Warren is a ticking time bomb of a campaign imo. | ||
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Ben...
Canada3485 Posts
Hell, I looked this pow wow chow topic up on several search engines and the only recent (as in the last few months) articles referring to this topic are from the Daily Wire, the National Review, some guy's opinion piece in the Chicago Tribune, and some site that also had an article about Pokemon being anti-Christian. I also didn't find anything on Twitter outside a grifter guy who appeared to peddle in fake outrage targeting people who like the DSA and Jacobin. As always, trust nothing you see on social media that isn't explicitly from a verified source. The misinformation campaigns don't just target the right, and given the Russians' behaviour in the last election, it is highly likely they are going to be targeting Warren if they haven't already with the same hyperbolic faux-outrage shit they did last election when they tried to inject themselves into left-wing social media campaigns and topics to kill enthusiasm for participating in the election. | ||
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GreenHorizons
United States23295 Posts
On September 29 2019 12:32 Ben... wrote: I'd be curious to see what exactly you are referring to. I looked up the "pow wow chow" thing. It's from nearly 40 years ago. If that is the worst they can find, then she's fine. It's entirely believable for people to not know their heritage as accurately as they think, and it was triply so the case back before there were the DNA tests we have today. She was verified to be part Cherokee, just not nearly as much as her family seemed to think they were. That type of stuff happens quite a bit, especially with people whose family histories are murky. There have been many cases of people thinking their family had certain ancestry or were from certain regions, only for them to later find out that what they thought was not the case Hell, I looked this pow wow chow topic up on several search engines and the only recent (as in the last few months) articles referring to this topic are from the Daily Wire, the National Review, some guy's opinion piece in the Chicago Tribune, and some site that also had an article about Pokemon being anti-Christian. I also didn't find anything on Twitter outside a grifter guy who appeared to peddle in fake outrage targeting people who like the DSA and Jacobin. As always, trust nothing you see on social media that isn't explicitly from a verified source. The misinformation campaigns don't just target the right, and given the Russians' behaviour in the last election, it is highly likely they are going to be targeting Warren if they haven't already with the same hyperbolic faux-outrage shit they did last election when they tried to inject themselves into left-wing social media campaigns and topics to kill enthusiasm for participating in the election. Russia didn't fool me last time (jfc I hope we don't have to go over that again) and that's not the case this time. Warren is a hard no from me based on what I've seen come out of her own mouth. Her deceit about her parents "eloping" actually comes from a Cherokee genealogist that looked into it back in 2012. There's more about why people, including her, claiming she's Cherokee is problematic and a general distaste for her and her handling of the issue. Here's a thread that includes some of the scrutiny I'm talking about: + Show Spoiler + EDIT: As an aside I think it's kinda silly to mention the potential of Russia manipulating opinions on Warren without addressing the clear and far more serious implications of corporate media doing the same. | ||
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Velr
Switzerland10763 Posts
If this skews you away from voting warren and with that enabling trump your just a moron. | ||
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GreenHorizons
United States23295 Posts
On September 29 2019 21:44 Velr wrote: I doubt anyone gives a shit about this. And even if some people do, the alternative is fucking trump which does worse all the time. If this skews you away from voting warren and with that enabling trump your just a moron. Primary voting is still months away, the alternative isn't Trump. The Democratic party's impotence is what's enabling Trump. | ||
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Biff The Understudy
France7903 Posts
On September 29 2019 21:44 Velr wrote: I doubt anyone gives a shit about this. And even if some people do, the alternative is fucking trump which does worse all the time. If this skews you away from voting warren and with that enabling trump your just a moron. You haven’t been paying attention last time I’m afraid. Thing is, from what I’ve understood of GH position, lesser evil, damage control or incremental change for the better are all machiavelian strategies of neoliberalism. In fact I suspect incremental progress is worse than total regression because it might delay further The Revolution. So I fully expect him to perfectly align with the hard right when it comes to any democratic candidate that is not Sanders. On September 29 2019 22:00 GreenHorizons wrote: Primary voting is still months away, the alternative isn't Trump. The Democratic party's impotence is what's enabling Trump. Many things are enabling Trump, including people with positions like yours. | ||
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Mohdoo
United States15713 Posts
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GreenHorizons
United States23295 Posts
On September 29 2019 23:47 Biff The Understudy wrote: You haven’t been paying attention last time I’m afraid. Thing is, from what I’ve understood of GH position, lesser evil, damage control or incremental change for the better are all machiavelian strategies of neoliberalism. So I fully expect him to perfectly align with the hard right when it comes to any democratic candidate that is not Sanders. Many things are enabling Trump, including people with positions like yours. lol, no. We have a two party, fptp, electoral college system, my vote doesn't matter in the general election. So these takes are not only wrong, they fail to recognize some basic political realities of the US. On September 29 2019 23:52 Mohdoo wrote: Ah, we're back to letting a single member define the conversation by indulging his primary mud slinging. I remember this. Kinda like the crime bill and "bragging about helping a pedophile". I look forward to this stimulating, new material that I couldn't read on some raunchy political blog. Had folks listened then and not defended Hillary (including her strategy to elevate Trump), the media, and the Democratic party maybe we'd have avoided Trump. | ||
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Biff The Understudy
France7903 Posts
On September 29 2019 23:52 GreenHorizons wrote: lol, no. We have a two party, fptp, electoral college system, my vote doesn't matter in the general election. So these takes are not only wrong, they fail to recognize some basic political realities of the US. You qualify yourself as an activist, I assume you are aware that voicing your opinion, and relaying positions around you (especially with as much vehemence as you have been deploying here) does matter and makes a difference. I think it's safe to assume that without the heroic efforts of the Bernie or Burst berniebros, that once the primaries were over seemed much more interested in spilling as much venom as possible on Clinton than on stopping Trump and fighting her later on, we would never had had Trump is the WH. | ||
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GreenHorizons
United States23295 Posts
On September 29 2019 23:57 Biff The Understudy wrote: You qualify yourself as an activist, I assume you are aware that voicing your opinion, and relaying positions around you (especially with as much vehemence as you have been deploying here) does matter and makes a difference. I think it's safe to assume that without the heroic efforts if the Bernie or Burst berniebros, that once the primaries were over seemed much more interested in spilling as much venom as possible on Clinton than on stopping Trump and fighting her later on, we would never had had Trump is the WH. More Bernie supporters voted for Hillary than Hillary supporters (PUMAs) voted for Obama so that narrative is bunkum. While apparently the sexist moniker of "Bernie bros" is still a thing and we're starting to relive 2016, here's MSNBC rehashing the same old trope for Warren, laundered through a billionaire heiress that "overheard it" no less. + Show Spoiler + Looks like we'll be replacing "experience" and "qualified" with "detailed plans", but if you don't support Warren you're already a Trump supporting sexist... | ||
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Grumbels
Netherlands7031 Posts
On September 29 2019 09:29 Wombat_NI wrote: I feel Clinton is a poster girl for ‘legitimate’ corruption that is outside of the reach of most folk in any way and thus resented a lot. Trump is almost a roguish level of non-standard corruption, that people kind of begrudgingly admire, in the way people do with crime bosses. Only way I can reconcile the differing responses. Anyway For the record I’ve met Hillary Clinton, seemed a decent sort. Granted I was 8 at the time I think Hillary was already despised in the 90’s as a target by the Christian right, a wife who didn’t know her place. She has always been plagued by, and been vulnerable to, rightwing smear campaigns, I tend to also see her as uniquely uncharismatic, but that’s difficult for me to personally judge. I honestly think she just isn’t a very skilled communicator nor a very inspiring figure despite her intelligence and accomplishments. People talk about corruption, but most of that stuff is completely beyond what normal people care about, the email scandal could only take hold in a void. Her campaign had an absence of any sort of galvanizing positive message other than cold calculation to hand Clinton the win she felt entitled to. Trump in comparison is comically corrupt and it hasn’t stopped him yet. In my opinion, the fact that after the election loss she literally disappeared into the woods and only emerged with a message of “Sanders made me lose” shows how she wasn’t the right figure at the time. She can’t be depended on to lead any sort of movement. Clinton and Obama should be on the streets every day to agitate against at least the Trump presidency, but they’re ultimately just careerists. | ||
Liquid`Drone
Norway28689 Posts
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MWY
Germany284 Posts
On September 30 2019 00:06 GreenHorizons wrote: More Bernie supporters voted for Hillary than Hillary supporters (PUMAs) voted for Obama so that narrative is bunkum. Besides following Sanders closely in 2016, I never actually heard about a "bernie bro" they way they are always talked about. Does anyone actually have an example for this "group"? I know that Sanders himself never really attacked Hillary, even when he very well could have/was invited to by interviewers. So blaming Sanders is really just trying to find a scapegoat for losing /being unable to beat trump which is in essence sad and pretty undemocratic in my opinion. [...]here's MSNBC rehashing the same old trope for Warren, laundered through a billionaire heiress that "overheard it" no less. + Show Spoiler + Looks like we'll be replacing "experience" and "qualified" with "detailed plans", but if you don't support Warren you're already a Trump supporting sexist... Things like this are so cancerous. | ||
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Ben...
Canada3485 Posts
On September 29 2019 12:51 GreenHorizons wrote: EDIT: As an aside I think it's kinda silly to mention the potential of Russia manipulating opinions on Warren without addressing the clear and far more serious implications of corporate media doing the same. This is an incredibly dangerous mindset to have. The Russians targeted both Sanders and Clinton in the primaries prior to the last election with the intent of killing enthusiasm for both. It is 100% reasonable to assume they are already doing the exact same thing right now for all of the major frontrunners. Also that account you shared seems rather suspect. It has no personal identifying information, was created 6 months ago, has tweeted over 1000 times per month (they must have a lot of free time), has retweeted others just as much, only tweets about wedge issues on the left, and mostly shares content from other accounts that look strikingly similar. I'd take what they say with a grain of salt to say the least. If not a troll account from a foreign entity, it could be an account created by someone supporting Trump with the intent of splitting the left. Again, trust nothing that isn't verified on social media. Corporate media manipulation of opinions on candidates and foreign misinformation campaigns attempting to do the same are mutually exclusive topics in my view. On September 29 2019 21:44 Velr wrote: I doubt anyone gives a shit about this. And even if some people do, the alternative is fucking trump which does worse all the time. If this skews you away from voting warren and with that enabling trump your just a moron. Yes, precisely. It is the explicit goal of both right-wing media and various misinformation campaigns of foreign governments to attempt to create false equivalences between the minor past mistakes of the various Democrat candidates and the many egregious things Trump has done. In doing so they want to create impossible standards for the Democrat candidates to have to meet while allowing Trump to be just as terrible as always. They want to make it so none of the candidates look appealing with hopes of killing enthusiasm for them, and thus suppressing voting on election day. We can't fall for this again. | ||
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Liquid`Drone
Norway28689 Posts
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farvacola
United States18832 Posts
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