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On July 09 2019 12:48 Nebuchad wrote:
Open borders is not a very good idea for a bunch of reasons, it's not a sustainable system. Abolish borders is the correct view if you want a position in that vein (I do).
The rhetorics that pretend it's either concentration camps or open borders, that's it, those are the two genders, are some of the ugliest.
Sure, abolish works if "open" is confusing for folks.
My point was that what people like Zero want and what I (the "far" left) want aren't the same and of the two it's not Democrats that are even close to advocating open boarders.
It's like when Republicans say Joe Biden is going to usher in socialism.
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On July 09 2019 12:48 Nebuchad wrote:
Open borders is not a very good idea for a bunch of reasons, it's not a sustainable system. Abolish borders is the correct view if you want a position in that vein (I do).
The rhetorics that pretend it's either concentration camps or open borders, that's it, those are the two genders, are some of the ugliest.
What are those reasons? I'm in favour of open borders myself but I still think it's necessary that we check who comes in.
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The goal for the dems always was to bring in as many illegals as possible and abolish the electoral college in favour of popular vote, to make the USA a one party system.
Of course most of current working class opposes the influx of lower skilled illegals, as it increases supply of low skill labor thus decreasing their market value/wages.Many of those lower skill jobs are disappearing anyway.Good for the wealthy who want cheap gardener/maids but that’s about it,
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I don't think (for all the flaws I think the left has on immigration) that it comes from a purely political or even partially political intent. I think for all the blind moralism they have on the issue they truly believe that having the rest of the world living in a world like the us is preferable to the way the majority of the population of the world exists as it is currently.
Its hard to reconcile how the left loves America but at the same time complains about America in every matter constantly but the day that you give up believing that the other side operates in good faith from an opening standpoint is the day you give into hate and just become another terrorist like ISIS,
my 10k post is comeing up and I feel I need to do something big for it so if I stop suddenly that's why.
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United States41989 Posts
On July 09 2019 15:50 iPlaY.NettleS wrote:
The goal for the dems always was to bring in as many illegals as possible and abolish the electoral college in favour of popular vote, to make the USA a one party system.
Of course most of current working class opposes the influx of lower skilled illegals, as it increases supply of low skill labor thus decreasing their market value/wages.Many of those lower skill jobs are disappearing anyway.Good for the wealthy who want cheap gardener/maids but that’s about it,
1. Illegals cannot vote.
2. The Democrats know this.
3. If this conspiracy did exist it would not need the popular vote to win, the illegals could be strategically placed in key states to win the EC.
4. Abolishing the electoral college cannot be done without first having won the electoral college, in addition to a colossal landslide elsewhere. This conspiracy is like a plan that involves using your lottery winnings to buy enough tickets that you'll get the winning one.
5. The illegals who can't vote might not reliably vote Democrat.
6. The success of the Democratic Party does not imply a one party state, it implies a moving of the political discourse to a new center with new divisions as has always happened whenever a political question is settled.
7. Why are they doing any of this?
8. What do the illegals get out of committing a felony and risking deportation instead of just not fraudulently voting after the Democrats got them in?
9. How does a conspiracy of this magnitude stay secret?
10. Is it because none of the people in on the conspiracy know they're in on the conspiracy but you secretly know they're secretly in on it?
11. Why would a group of individuals powerful enough to pull off this elaborate conspiracy not simply use their power to govern? If they're capable of the kind of electoral fraud this plan would require then they would need total control of the government, media and electoral process already which makes the entire affair moot.
12. Why does none of this make any sense?
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United States41989 Posts
On July 09 2019 16:17 Sermokala wrote:
I don't think (for all the flaws I think the left has on immigration) that it comes from a purely political or even partially political intent. I think for all the blind moralism they have on the issue they truly believe that having the rest of the world living in a world like the us is preferable to the way the majority of the population of the world exists as it is currently.
Its hard to reconcile how the left loves America but at the same time complains about America in every matter constantly but the day that you give up believing that the other side operates in good faith from an opening standpoint is the day you give into hate and just become another terrorist like ISIS,
my 10k post is comeing up and I feel I need to do something big for it so if I stop suddenly that's why.
Loving America is a strange concept. I certainly don't love America the way I love a family member. Or even a beloved pet. America exists and given that it exists I would like it to be a good thing. I would like it to be run more efficiently. I would like it to devote fewer resources to bombing starving people in Yemen. I would like it to be a better advocate for the oppressed internationally. I would like it to do a better job at allocating the resources of the nation between the inhabitants. I think those wishes speak to a desire to make America closer to the ideal that is America. They're not coming from a place of hate of America.
I go to the gym. I don't go to the gym because I hate myself. I go to the gym because I want to be a more admirable version of myself that more closely aligns with the ideal of what I want for myself. Self care is an expression of self love. I think America needs to get its ass to the gym instead of insisting that those thinner Europeans are all fags and that anyone who criticizes it is a hater.
How do you experience love for America? What other things do you love in the same way?
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I would like it to devote fewer resources to bombing starving people in Yemen.
This is a remarkably hopeless wish and it makes me sad.
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On July 08 2019 23:47 Danglars wrote:Show nested quote +On July 08 2019 23:11 Taelshin wrote:xDaunt drooling at the prospect of shit happening to Clinton if the whole thing was not more of his hypocritical partisan bs, since he has demonstrated time and time again that he would keep defending Trump tooth and nail if we had a video of him raping 7 years old girls.
frankly that's just grotesque, untrue, and completely unacceptable on this form IMO. Gonna report the post, insane slander and completely unfounded. Your way off course pal. I'm not really sure where the Epstein saga is going to go, i'm sure hes gonna go away for a long time, but who or how they manage to get the others involved in it or partaking of it is gonna be a whale of a mess. Curious, does anyone know what Epstein really did to earn all his money, he just generally feels like a scumbag and in all the news articles i've read they don't really get into the inner workings of his financial empire. This forum will get way spicier if you can allege someone excuses or condones rape. I’m interested to see how it plays out.
That’s funny because Trump is accused of rape, groping and sexual agression by multiple women and some posters here are apparently dedicated in defending him no matter what.
It does make the forum spicier, I’ll give you that.
I got a warning, if you want to know how it played out. But look at it that way, what I said about you guys is no different that what Trump said himself: that he could shoot someone on the 5th avenue, you would keep defending him. I’ll chose murder rather than rape next time, but reading this forum has taught me one thing, which is that for once he was spot on.
Extreme, blind, partisanship made you totally immune to hold the guy accountable for anything at all. Let that illness spread and you can kiss goodbye to democracy in America in a matter of years. Accountability is the cornerstone of a republic.
Also let’s clarify since I provoked such a shitstorm: I know xDaunt would never defend Trump if he knew and believed that Trump did anything like that. But he wouldn’t know and would never believe, because he would start deflecting before even having a glance at the evidence. I’m just certain that no matter the evidence, it would be called deep fake, or a manipulation, and so forth and so on.
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On July 09 2019 16:41 Biff The Understudy wrote:Show nested quote +On July 08 2019 23:47 Danglars wrote:On July 08 2019 23:11 Taelshin wrote:xDaunt drooling at the prospect of shit happening to Clinton if the whole thing was not more of his hypocritical partisan bs, since he has demonstrated time and time again that he would keep defending Trump tooth and nail if we had a video of him raping 7 years old girls.
frankly that's just grotesque, untrue, and completely unacceptable on this form IMO. Gonna report the post, insane slander and completely unfounded. Your way off course pal. I'm not really sure where the Epstein saga is going to go, i'm sure hes gonna go away for a long time, but who or how they manage to get the others involved in it or partaking of it is gonna be a whale of a mess. Curious, does anyone know what Epstein really did to earn all his money, he just generally feels like a scumbag and in all the news articles i've read they don't really get into the inner workings of his financial empire. This forum will get way spicier if you can allege someone excuses or condones rape. I’m interested to see how it plays out. That’s funny because Trump is accused of rape, groping and sexual agression by multiple women and some posters here are apparently dedicated in defending him no matter what. It does make the forum spicier, I’ll give you that. I got a warning, if you want to know how it played out. But look at it that way, what I said about you guys is no different that what Trump said himself: that he could shoot someone on the 5th avenue, you would keep defending him. I’ll chose murder rather than rape next time, but reading this forum has taught me one thing, which is that for once he was spot on. Extreme, blind, partisanship made you totally immune to hold the guy accountable for anything at all. Let that illness spread and you can kiss goodbye to democracy in America in a matter of years. Accountability is the cornerstone of a republic.
You think there's something Democrats could find out about their nominee that would cause them not to vote for them in 2020?
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On July 09 2019 10:10 Sermokala wrote:Show nested quote +On July 09 2019 10:04 ZerOCoolSC2 wrote:On July 09 2019 09:47 Sermokala wrote:On July 09 2019 09:42 Jockmcplop wrote:
Thanks serm I'll add that to the massive, infinite list of problems that the left is responsible for that the left isn't really responsible for.
Remember when it was the left's fault that the republicans voted Trump in?
Its what we call "Shapiro logic" You don't blame the venue for having disgusting toilets you blame the promoter for not having enough bathrooms for the event they promoted for. The event the left is promoting for is amnesty. They are advertising for human traffickers to say "quickly give us your money so we can bring you to America and soon you will be a us citizen". Simple cause and effect. Having fault and being the fault of are two different things. The mental gymnastics. Must be a gold medalist in the all around event. I could be wrong, but I think the left is for honoring what the US is founded and has been made prosperous from, and that is accepting people from all over who are looking for a better life and to have an opportunity to you know...live. They want people who come here illegally to be checked and given a chance to earn citizenship. If you want to play this game, then really, you don't belong here. Neither do I. Only people who the US rightfully belongs to is the native americans. Because americans brought weapons and disease and wiped a civilization out of their homes, does not give them the right to decide who is welcome and who is not. Take your nonsense elsewhere. I'm glad you agree that they come here illegally and are inherently criminals waiting for the deal sold to them to come true as economic migrants and not the asylum seekers they profess to be.
You are talking about children who are being put into underfunded understaffed overcrowded camps forcibly taken from their parents where they lack basic hygienic necessities as a deliberately punitive measure in order to punish a handful of migrants trying to escape from US-imposed violence in their home countries, when the US is the world's richest country and could easily accommodate these people.
Climate change is going to primarily affect the global south. The famines and violence this will produce are going to create a stream of refugees fleeing northward. I'm glad that you have your moral priorities in order and are eager to create Fortress America, a militarized border control that deters refugees by force. As opposed to "tHe LeFt" that nefariously plots to address climate change and treat people humanely.
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On July 09 2019 16:43 GreenHorizons wrote:Show nested quote +On July 09 2019 16:41 Biff The Understudy wrote:On July 08 2019 23:47 Danglars wrote:On July 08 2019 23:11 Taelshin wrote:xDaunt drooling at the prospect of shit happening to Clinton if the whole thing was not more of his hypocritical partisan bs, since he has demonstrated time and time again that he would keep defending Trump tooth and nail if we had a video of him raping 7 years old girls.
frankly that's just grotesque, untrue, and completely unacceptable on this form IMO. Gonna report the post, insane slander and completely unfounded. Your way off course pal. I'm not really sure where the Epstein saga is going to go, i'm sure hes gonna go away for a long time, but who or how they manage to get the others involved in it or partaking of it is gonna be a whale of a mess. Curious, does anyone know what Epstein really did to earn all his money, he just generally feels like a scumbag and in all the news articles i've read they don't really get into the inner workings of his financial empire. This forum will get way spicier if you can allege someone excuses or condones rape. I’m interested to see how it plays out. That’s funny because Trump is accused of rape, groping and sexual agression by multiple women and some posters here are apparently dedicated in defending him no matter what. It does make the forum spicier, I’ll give you that. I got a warning, if you want to know how it played out. But look at it that way, what I said about you guys is no different that what Trump said himself: that he could shoot someone on the 5th avenue, you would keep defending him. I’ll chose murder rather than rape next time, but reading this forum has taught me one thing, which is that for once he was spot on. Extreme, blind, partisanship made you totally immune to hold the guy accountable for anything at all. Let that illness spread and you can kiss goodbye to democracy in America in a matter of years. Accountability is the cornerstone of a republic. You think there's something Democrats could find out about their nominee that would cause them not to vote for them in 2020?
Sure. Clinton most because people lost faith in her because of scandals that, while real, are absolutely ludicrously small compared to the shit we know about Trump. It’s the only reason she lost this otherwise unlosable election.
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On July 09 2019 16:47 Biff The Understudy wrote:Show nested quote +On July 09 2019 16:43 GreenHorizons wrote:On July 09 2019 16:41 Biff The Understudy wrote:On July 08 2019 23:47 Danglars wrote:On July 08 2019 23:11 Taelshin wrote:xDaunt drooling at the prospect of shit happening to Clinton if the whole thing was not more of his hypocritical partisan bs, since he has demonstrated time and time again that he would keep defending Trump tooth and nail if we had a video of him raping 7 years old girls.
frankly that's just grotesque, untrue, and completely unacceptable on this form IMO. Gonna report the post, insane slander and completely unfounded. Your way off course pal. I'm not really sure where the Epstein saga is going to go, i'm sure hes gonna go away for a long time, but who or how they manage to get the others involved in it or partaking of it is gonna be a whale of a mess. Curious, does anyone know what Epstein really did to earn all his money, he just generally feels like a scumbag and in all the news articles i've read they don't really get into the inner workings of his financial empire. This forum will get way spicier if you can allege someone excuses or condones rape. I’m interested to see how it plays out. That’s funny because Trump is accused of rape, groping and sexual agression by multiple women and some posters here are apparently dedicated in defending him no matter what. It does make the forum spicier, I’ll give you that. I got a warning, if you want to know how it played out. But look at it that way, what I said about you guys is no different that what Trump said himself: that he could shoot someone on the 5th avenue, you would keep defending him. I’ll chose murder rather than rape next time, but reading this forum has taught me one thing, which is that for once he was spot on. Extreme, blind, partisanship made you totally immune to hold the guy accountable for anything at all. Let that illness spread and you can kiss goodbye to democracy in America in a matter of years. Accountability is the cornerstone of a republic. You think there's something Democrats could find out about their nominee that would cause them not to vote for them in 2020? Sure. Clinton most because people lost faith in her because of scandals that, while real, are absolutely ludicrously small compared to the shit we know about Trump. It’s the only reason she lost this otherwise unlosable election.
She got 3 million more votes than Trump and she's your example of Democrats not voting for someone they found out was unacceptable?
I think Republicans see crocodile tears about kids in camps when Democrats reminisce about Obama despite his supplying bombs to kill innocent children (also not providing basic sanitary conditions in his camps).
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On July 09 2019 16:51 GreenHorizons wrote:Show nested quote +On July 09 2019 16:47 Biff The Understudy wrote:On July 09 2019 16:43 GreenHorizons wrote:On July 09 2019 16:41 Biff The Understudy wrote:On July 08 2019 23:47 Danglars wrote:On July 08 2019 23:11 Taelshin wrote:xDaunt drooling at the prospect of shit happening to Clinton if the whole thing was not more of his hypocritical partisan bs, since he has demonstrated time and time again that he would keep defending Trump tooth and nail if we had a video of him raping 7 years old girls.
frankly that's just grotesque, untrue, and completely unacceptable on this form IMO. Gonna report the post, insane slander and completely unfounded. Your way off course pal. I'm not really sure where the Epstein saga is going to go, i'm sure hes gonna go away for a long time, but who or how they manage to get the others involved in it or partaking of it is gonna be a whale of a mess. Curious, does anyone know what Epstein really did to earn all his money, he just generally feels like a scumbag and in all the news articles i've read they don't really get into the inner workings of his financial empire. This forum will get way spicier if you can allege someone excuses or condones rape. I’m interested to see how it plays out. That’s funny because Trump is accused of rape, groping and sexual agression by multiple women and some posters here are apparently dedicated in defending him no matter what. It does make the forum spicier, I’ll give you that. I got a warning, if you want to know how it played out. But look at it that way, what I said about you guys is no different that what Trump said himself: that he could shoot someone on the 5th avenue, you would keep defending him. I’ll chose murder rather than rape next time, but reading this forum has taught me one thing, which is that for once he was spot on. Extreme, blind, partisanship made you totally immune to hold the guy accountable for anything at all. Let that illness spread and you can kiss goodbye to democracy in America in a matter of years. Accountability is the cornerstone of a republic. You think there's something Democrats could find out about their nominee that would cause them not to vote for them in 2020? Sure. Clinton most because people lost faith in her because of scandals that, while real, are absolutely ludicrously small compared to the shit we know about Trump. It’s the only reason she lost this otherwise unlosable election. She got 3 million more votes than Trump and she's your example of Democrats not voting for someone? I think Republicans see crocodile tears about kids in camps when Democrats reminisce about Obama despite his supplying bombs to kill innocent children.
And you and me know that she should have had much, much more than 3 million extra votes. Also, her scandals were pretty minor, and the alternative was, well, effing Trump.
I’m absolutely certain that any Democrat caught on tape saying he could grope women, or defending nazis saying they are fine people, or making a fake university to exploit vulnerable young people, or being blatantly lying in the most absurd way day after day after day about literally everything would not get elected.
Nice whataboutism, for a change. « Your guy sold weapons so don’t pretend to be outraged by concentration camps » is the reason there can be concentration camps. Join the democrats about that monstrosity and later on, fight them over the weapons. Because right now, you are just helping to moot criticism against a historical crime.
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On July 09 2019 16:55 Biff The Understudy wrote:Show nested quote +On July 09 2019 16:51 GreenHorizons wrote:On July 09 2019 16:47 Biff The Understudy wrote:On July 09 2019 16:43 GreenHorizons wrote:On July 09 2019 16:41 Biff The Understudy wrote:On July 08 2019 23:47 Danglars wrote:On July 08 2019 23:11 Taelshin wrote:xDaunt drooling at the prospect of shit happening to Clinton if the whole thing was not more of his hypocritical partisan bs, since he has demonstrated time and time again that he would keep defending Trump tooth and nail if we had a video of him raping 7 years old girls.
frankly that's just grotesque, untrue, and completely unacceptable on this form IMO. Gonna report the post, insane slander and completely unfounded. Your way off course pal. I'm not really sure where the Epstein saga is going to go, i'm sure hes gonna go away for a long time, but who or how they manage to get the others involved in it or partaking of it is gonna be a whale of a mess. Curious, does anyone know what Epstein really did to earn all his money, he just generally feels like a scumbag and in all the news articles i've read they don't really get into the inner workings of his financial empire. This forum will get way spicier if you can allege someone excuses or condones rape. I’m interested to see how it plays out. That’s funny because Trump is accused of rape, groping and sexual agression by multiple women and some posters here are apparently dedicated in defending him no matter what. It does make the forum spicier, I’ll give you that. I got a warning, if you want to know how it played out. But look at it that way, what I said about you guys is no different that what Trump said himself: that he could shoot someone on the 5th avenue, you would keep defending him. I’ll chose murder rather than rape next time, but reading this forum has taught me one thing, which is that for once he was spot on. Extreme, blind, partisanship made you totally immune to hold the guy accountable for anything at all. Let that illness spread and you can kiss goodbye to democracy in America in a matter of years. Accountability is the cornerstone of a republic. You think there's something Democrats could find out about their nominee that would cause them not to vote for them in 2020? Sure. Clinton most because people lost faith in her because of scandals that, while real, are absolutely ludicrously small compared to the shit we know about Trump. It’s the only reason she lost this otherwise unlosable election. She got 3 million more votes than Trump and she's your example of Democrats not voting for someone? I think Republicans see crocodile tears about kids in camps when Democrats reminisce about Obama despite his supplying bombs to kill innocent children. And you and me know that she should have had much, much more than 3 million extra votes. Also, her scandals were pretty minor, and the alternative was, well, effing Trump. I’m absolutely certain that any Democrat caught on tape saying he could grope women, or defending nazis sating they are fine people, or making a fake university to exploit vulnerable young people would not get elected. Nice whataboutism, for a change.
Whataboutism would imply I'm opposed to recognizing Trump is a cretin or that his supporters will ignore practically anything and continue to support him, that's not the case. Please don't misuse the term, it tends to spiral.
What I'm doing is simply pointing out that the critique goes both ways in that there's nothing (you supposed at least) that would stop Democrats from voting for their nominee like Republicans did theirs.
Your example being someone that got 3,000,000 MORE votes than the Republican (but not winning) seems demonstrative of my point, not contradictory.
« Your guy sold weapons so don’t pretend to be outraged by concentration camps » is the reason there can be concentration camps. Join the democrats about that monstrosity and later on, fight them over the weapons. Because right now, you are just helping to moot criticism against a historical crime.
False.
It's pretty much the opposite. It's the endless loop of "worry about that later we have to fight Republicans/protect Dem seats" that allowed Trump to simply make Obama's camps even worse and continue supplying weapons for massacring children.
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On July 09 2019 16:17 Sermokala wrote:
I don't think (for all the flaws I think the left has on immigration) that it comes from a purely political or even partially political intent. I think for all the blind moralism they have on the issue they truly believe that having the rest of the world living in a world like the us is preferable to the way the majority of the population of the world exists as it is currently.
Its hard to reconcile how the left loves America but at the same time complains about America in every matter constantly but the day that you give up believing that the other side operates in good faith from an opening standpoint is the day you give into hate and just become another terrorist like ISIS,
my 10k post is comeing up and I feel I need to do something big for it so if I stop suddenly that's why.
There are some elements of patriotism and nationalism that can be healthy, such as pride in institutions, support for the US a a democratic experiment, sentiment for your place of birth and so on. I mean, I still only feel truly at home when I visit my parents and take a familiar walk in the heather fields, or when I return from a holiday in Italy to see familiar forests of beech and oak past the Alps. And when the Dutch female soccer team plays the US' in the finals I'll root for the former, sure.
But there are also types of nationalism that are toxic. The conception of patriotism that you find in US politics, most psychotically expressed on the right, but never countered by the Dems or the media, is that of US exceptionalism, which grants the US a special place in history as the supreme empire that should literally rule the world, which can never do anything wrong and which is beyond accusations of hypocrisy, which can act unilaterally and is unbound by the UN or international law or treaties.
And this is expressed in the most crude forms. There is a cult for the military and veterans in particular, people that have "served" the country by becoming guns for hire and invading other countries to murder innocents. Sport events that are dedicated to the flag and to the military, with costly military flyovers. The obsession with standing for the anthem and the flag. None of that is normal, you don't find it in Europe as much. It's a very crude form of nationalism that is defined by adherence to a handful of meaningless symbols as a divide and conquer ploy, to create divisions between a chauvinistic base and various ethnic minorities that have mixed feelings about the symbols of American hegemony. It's not inclusive, but rather exclusive, it's the essentially fascist notion that "those people" are not real Americans because they are not devout cultists of the American civil religion.
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On July 09 2019 17:02 GreenHorizons wrote:Show nested quote +On July 09 2019 16:55 Biff The Understudy wrote:On July 09 2019 16:51 GreenHorizons wrote:On July 09 2019 16:47 Biff The Understudy wrote:On July 09 2019 16:43 GreenHorizons wrote:On July 09 2019 16:41 Biff The Understudy wrote:On July 08 2019 23:47 Danglars wrote:On July 08 2019 23:11 Taelshin wrote:xDaunt drooling at the prospect of shit happening to Clinton if the whole thing was not more of his hypocritical partisan bs, since he has demonstrated time and time again that he would keep defending Trump tooth and nail if we had a video of him raping 7 years old girls.
frankly that's just grotesque, untrue, and completely unacceptable on this form IMO. Gonna report the post, insane slander and completely unfounded. Your way off course pal. I'm not really sure where the Epstein saga is going to go, i'm sure hes gonna go away for a long time, but who or how they manage to get the others involved in it or partaking of it is gonna be a whale of a mess. Curious, does anyone know what Epstein really did to earn all his money, he just generally feels like a scumbag and in all the news articles i've read they don't really get into the inner workings of his financial empire. This forum will get way spicier if you can allege someone excuses or condones rape. I’m interested to see how it plays out. That’s funny because Trump is accused of rape, groping and sexual agression by multiple women and some posters here are apparently dedicated in defending him no matter what. It does make the forum spicier, I’ll give you that. I got a warning, if you want to know how it played out. But look at it that way, what I said about you guys is no different that what Trump said himself: that he could shoot someone on the 5th avenue, you would keep defending him. I’ll chose murder rather than rape next time, but reading this forum has taught me one thing, which is that for once he was spot on. Extreme, blind, partisanship made you totally immune to hold the guy accountable for anything at all. Let that illness spread and you can kiss goodbye to democracy in America in a matter of years. Accountability is the cornerstone of a republic. You think there's something Democrats could find out about their nominee that would cause them not to vote for them in 2020? Sure. Clinton most because people lost faith in her because of scandals that, while real, are absolutely ludicrously small compared to the shit we know about Trump. It’s the only reason she lost this otherwise unlosable election. She got 3 million more votes than Trump and she's your example of Democrats not voting for someone? I think Republicans see crocodile tears about kids in camps when Democrats reminisce about Obama despite his supplying bombs to kill innocent children. And you and me know that she should have had much, much more than 3 million extra votes. Also, her scandals were pretty minor, and the alternative was, well, effing Trump. I’m absolutely certain that any Democrat caught on tape saying he could grope women, or defending nazis sating they are fine people, or making a fake university to exploit vulnerable young people would not get elected. Nice whataboutism, for a change. Whataboutism would imply I'm opposed to recognizing Trump is a cretin or that his supporters will ignore practically anything and continue to support him, that's not the case. Please don't misuse the term, it tends to spiral. What I'm doing is simply pointing out that the critique goes both ways in that there's nothing (you supposed at least) that would stop Democrats from voting for their nominee like Republicans did theirs. Your example being someone that got 3,000,000 more votes than the Republican (but not winning) seems demonstrative of my point, not contradictory.
No it doesn’t.
Unless you want to argue the email scandals didn’t hurt her or that Trump got terribly handicaped by having a recording of him boasting being a sexual aggressor released a month before the election.
If you really think Clinton campaign wasn’t sunk by the emails, the foundation stuff and the FBI reopening its investigation (and that’s exactly what we call accountability), we probably live in parallel universes.
I’m kind of done with that part of the discussion unless there are other arguments to be made. I don’t think you will budge one bit, and you won’t convince me that democrats are as blind to what their politicians do as Trump voters. No one is immune to partisanship, but I’m quite certain that if a democrat had done in two years of presidency what Trump has done, he would have 25% approval amongst dem sympathizers.
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On July 09 2019 17:07 Grumbels wrote:Show nested quote +On July 09 2019 16:17 Sermokala wrote:
I don't think (for all the flaws I think the left has on immigration) that it comes from a purely political or even partially political intent. I think for all the blind moralism they have on the issue they truly believe that having the rest of the world living in a world like the us is preferable to the way the majority of the population of the world exists as it is currently.
Its hard to reconcile how the left loves America but at the same time complains about America in every matter constantly but the day that you give up believing that the other side operates in good faith from an opening standpoint is the day you give into hate and just become another terrorist like ISIS,
my 10k post is comeing up and I feel I need to do something big for it so if I stop suddenly that's why. There are some elements of patriotism and nationalism that can be healthy, such as pride in institutions, support for the US a a democratic experiment, sentiment for your place of birth and so on. I mean, I still only feel truly at home when I visit my parents and take a familiar walk in the heather fields, or when I return from a holiday in Italy to see familiar forests of beech and oak past the Alps. And when the Dutch female soccer team plays the US' in the finals I'll root for the former, sure. But there are also types of nationalism that are toxic. The conception of patriotism that you find in US politics, most psychotically expressed on the right, but never countered by the Dems or the media, is that of US exceptionalism, which grants the US a special place in history as the supreme empire that should literally rule the world, which can never do anything wrong and which is beyond accusations of hypocrisy, which can act unilaterally and is unbound by the UN or international law or treaties. And this is expressed in the most crude forms. There is a cult for the military and veterans in particular, people that have "served" the country by becoming guns for hire and invading other countries to murder innocents. Sport events that are dedicated to the flag and to the military, with costly military flyovers. The obsession with standing for the anthem and the flag. None of that is normal, you don't find it in Europe as much. It's a very crude form of nationalism that is defined by adherence to a handful of meaningless symbols as a divide and conquer ploy, to create divisions between a chauvinistic base and various ethnic minorities that have mixed feelings about the symbols of American hegemony. It's not inclusive, but rather exclusive, it's the essentially fascist notion that "those people" are not real Americans because they are not devout cultists of the American civil religion.
I have to agree with basically every word of your post, although I am not sure that we, europeans, understand the US as well as we would like to believe. Also, we have had very harsh lessons to what blind nationalism and militarism can do to a country in the XXth century. I think the memory of whole populations going ape shit crazy with bloodlust in 1914 under the same flag and boots BS, and of course the experience of fascism have made us very very suspicious towards that kind of enthusiasm. The idea that the military are the good guys and deserve respect and praise no matter what died in the trenches of Verdun and the battlefields of the Sommes.
But then again, look at France doing a military parade every year in front of african dictators with our anthem talking about the unpure blood of our ennemies that shall feed our swords and you realize we might not be done with all of that either.
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On July 09 2019 17:10 Biff The Understudy wrote:Show nested quote +On July 09 2019 17:02 GreenHorizons wrote:On July 09 2019 16:55 Biff The Understudy wrote:On July 09 2019 16:51 GreenHorizons wrote:On July 09 2019 16:47 Biff The Understudy wrote:On July 09 2019 16:43 GreenHorizons wrote:On July 09 2019 16:41 Biff The Understudy wrote:On July 08 2019 23:47 Danglars wrote:On July 08 2019 23:11 Taelshin wrote:xDaunt drooling at the prospect of shit happening to Clinton if the whole thing was not more of his hypocritical partisan bs, since he has demonstrated time and time again that he would keep defending Trump tooth and nail if we had a video of him raping 7 years old girls.
frankly that's just grotesque, untrue, and completely unacceptable on this form IMO. Gonna report the post, insane slander and completely unfounded. Your way off course pal. I'm not really sure where the Epstein saga is going to go, i'm sure hes gonna go away for a long time, but who or how they manage to get the others involved in it or partaking of it is gonna be a whale of a mess. Curious, does anyone know what Epstein really did to earn all his money, he just generally feels like a scumbag and in all the news articles i've read they don't really get into the inner workings of his financial empire. This forum will get way spicier if you can allege someone excuses or condones rape. I’m interested to see how it plays out. That’s funny because Trump is accused of rape, groping and sexual agression by multiple women and some posters here are apparently dedicated in defending him no matter what. It does make the forum spicier, I’ll give you that. I got a warning, if you want to know how it played out. But look at it that way, what I said about you guys is no different that what Trump said himself: that he could shoot someone on the 5th avenue, you would keep defending him. I’ll chose murder rather than rape next time, but reading this forum has taught me one thing, which is that for once he was spot on. Extreme, blind, partisanship made you totally immune to hold the guy accountable for anything at all. Let that illness spread and you can kiss goodbye to democracy in America in a matter of years. Accountability is the cornerstone of a republic. You think there's something Democrats could find out about their nominee that would cause them not to vote for them in 2020? Sure. Clinton most because people lost faith in her because of scandals that, while real, are absolutely ludicrously small compared to the shit we know about Trump. It’s the only reason she lost this otherwise unlosable election. She got 3 million more votes than Trump and she's your example of Democrats not voting for someone? I think Republicans see crocodile tears about kids in camps when Democrats reminisce about Obama despite his supplying bombs to kill innocent children. And you and me know that she should have had much, much more than 3 million extra votes. Also, her scandals were pretty minor, and the alternative was, well, effing Trump. I’m absolutely certain that any Democrat caught on tape saying he could grope women, or defending nazis sating they are fine people, or making a fake university to exploit vulnerable young people would not get elected. Nice whataboutism, for a change. Whataboutism would imply I'm opposed to recognizing Trump is a cretin or that his supporters will ignore practically anything and continue to support him, that's not the case. Please don't misuse the term, it tends to spiral. What I'm doing is simply pointing out that the critique goes both ways in that there's nothing (you supposed at least) that would stop Democrats from voting for their nominee like Republicans did theirs. Your example being someone that got 3,000,000 more votes than the Republican (but not winning) seems demonstrative of my point, not contradictory. No it doesn’t. Unless you want to argue the email scandals didn’t hurt her or that Trump got terribly handicaped by having a recording of him boasting being a sexual aggressor released a month before the election. If you really think Clinton campaign wasn’t sunk by the emails, the foundation stuff and the FBI reopening its investigation (and that’s exactly what we call accountability), we probably live in parallel universes. I’m kind of done with that part of the discussion unless there are other arguments to be made. I don’t think you will budge one bit, and you won’t convince me that democrats are as blind to what their politicians do as Trump voters.
...
Obviously some people (who knows how many) didn't vote for Clinton for some reason related to something they learned during the campaigns. Unfortunately you're arguing something wholly irrelevant to my point.
I'm not arguing about why Hillary lost 2016, I'm pointing out Democrats voted for her just the same as Republicans voted for Trump.
PARTY______________ Clinton____Trump
Democrat_______________89______ 8
Republican______________8_______88
ropercenter.cornell.edu
EDIT: That was after she said she wanted to send the same kids back to the countries they were fleeing to "send a message" to their parents and after Obama (the administration she worked for) had already been caging them without adequate conditions.
EDIT2: and after the foreign policy she helped engineer in Libya revived literal slave markets.
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On July 09 2019 17:18 GreenHorizons wrote:Show nested quote +On July 09 2019 17:10 Biff The Understudy wrote:On July 09 2019 17:02 GreenHorizons wrote:On July 09 2019 16:55 Biff The Understudy wrote:On July 09 2019 16:51 GreenHorizons wrote:On July 09 2019 16:47 Biff The Understudy wrote:On July 09 2019 16:43 GreenHorizons wrote:On July 09 2019 16:41 Biff The Understudy wrote:On July 08 2019 23:47 Danglars wrote:On July 08 2019 23:11 Taelshin wrote:
[quote]
frankly that's just grotesque, untrue, and completely unacceptable on this form IMO. Gonna report the post, insane slander and completely unfounded. Your way off course pal.
I'm not really sure where the Epstein saga is going to go, i'm sure hes gonna go away for a long time, but who or how they manage to get the others involved in it or partaking of it is gonna be a whale of a mess. Curious, does anyone know what Epstein really did to earn all his money, he just generally feels like a scumbag and in all the news articles i've read they don't really get into the inner workings of his financial empire. This forum will get way spicier if you can allege someone excuses or condones rape. I’m interested to see how it plays out. That’s funny because Trump is accused of rape, groping and sexual agression by multiple women and some posters here are apparently dedicated in defending him no matter what. It does make the forum spicier, I’ll give you that. I got a warning, if you want to know how it played out. But look at it that way, what I said about you guys is no different that what Trump said himself: that he could shoot someone on the 5th avenue, you would keep defending him. I’ll chose murder rather than rape next time, but reading this forum has taught me one thing, which is that for once he was spot on. Extreme, blind, partisanship made you totally immune to hold the guy accountable for anything at all. Let that illness spread and you can kiss goodbye to democracy in America in a matter of years. Accountability is the cornerstone of a republic. You think there's something Democrats could find out about their nominee that would cause them not to vote for them in 2020? Sure. Clinton most because people lost faith in her because of scandals that, while real, are absolutely ludicrously small compared to the shit we know about Trump. It’s the only reason she lost this otherwise unlosable election. She got 3 million more votes than Trump and she's your example of Democrats not voting for someone? I think Republicans see crocodile tears about kids in camps when Democrats reminisce about Obama despite his supplying bombs to kill innocent children. And you and me know that she should have had much, much more than 3 million extra votes. Also, her scandals were pretty minor, and the alternative was, well, effing Trump. I’m absolutely certain that any Democrat caught on tape saying he could grope women, or defending nazis sating they are fine people, or making a fake university to exploit vulnerable young people would not get elected. Nice whataboutism, for a change. Whataboutism would imply I'm opposed to recognizing Trump is a cretin or that his supporters will ignore practically anything and continue to support him, that's not the case. Please don't misuse the term, it tends to spiral. What I'm doing is simply pointing out that the critique goes both ways in that there's nothing (you supposed at least) that would stop Democrats from voting for their nominee like Republicans did theirs. Your example being someone that got 3,000,000 more votes than the Republican (but not winning) seems demonstrative of my point, not contradictory. No it doesn’t. Unless you want to argue the email scandals didn’t hurt her or that Trump got terribly handicaped by having a recording of him boasting being a sexual aggressor released a month before the election. If you really think Clinton campaign wasn’t sunk by the emails, the foundation stuff and the FBI reopening its investigation (and that’s exactly what we call accountability), we probably live in parallel universes. I’m kind of done with that part of the discussion unless there are other arguments to be made. I don’t think you will budge one bit, and you won’t convince me that democrats are as blind to what their politicians do as Trump voters. ... Obviously some people (who knows how many) didn't vote for Clinton for some reason related to something they learned during the campaigns. Unfortunately you're arguing something wholly irrelevant to my point. I'm not arguing about why Hillary lost 2016, I'm pointing out Democrats voted for her just the same as Republicans voted for Trump. Show nested quote +PARTY______________ Clinton____Trump
Democrat_______________89______ 8
Republican______________8_______88 ropercenter.cornell.edu
And do you believe that there were as good reasons not to vote for Clinton as a democrat as there were not to vote for Trump as a republican? Because you numbers are only meaningful if we consider they were equally inadequate.
In good faith, I would vote for someone with Clinton record if she aligned with my opinions, and never in my life for someone with Trump’s, even if I agreed with every word of his platform. Because Clinton is under my accountability radar, while Trump explodes all the charts.
And to be clear, we are talking personal misconduct here, not policy.
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EPT
