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On March 11 2019 23:47 KwarK wrote:Show nested quote +On March 11 2019 22:16 BerserkSword wrote:On March 11 2019 22:08 farvacola wrote:
Isolationism didn’t work before nukes, the internet, and global public health awareness, and it sure as hell won’t work now or moving forward. it worked It brought us two world wars. America went isolationist, the world caught fire, America went “shit, was I meant to be watching that? I’ll pay attention now”, the world stopped being on fire, America forgot what it was meant to be doing. The entire postwar status quo, from NATO to a demilitarized Japan, did not happen by accident and does not exist for no reason.
There is zero evidence to suggest that American isolationism brought about the world wars. Are you suggesting that the world went to shit because the U.S. wasn't being world police?
There is plenty evidence to suggest that isolationism works, though. From George Washington, to WW1 (maybe WW2), America was isolationist and prospered. Turned into a juggernaut economic power, with the highest standard of living in the world, in fact.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_non-interventionism
Here is the wikipedia article
As you can see, George Washington himself championed isolationism. The founding fathers championed isolationism by virtue of the clearly defined role of the government, in the Constitution.
And the U.S. remained virtually isolationist until WW2, where even that i would argue it was erring on the side of isolationism since it did not enter the war until Japan attacked, therefore involving the U.S.
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United States42008 Posts
On March 12 2019 00:00 BerserkSword wrote:Show nested quote +On March 11 2019 23:47 KwarK wrote:On March 11 2019 22:16 BerserkSword wrote:On March 11 2019 22:08 farvacola wrote:
Isolationism didn’t work before nukes, the internet, and global public health awareness, and it sure as hell won’t work now or moving forward. it worked It brought us two world wars. America went isolationist, the world caught fire, America went “shit, was I meant to be watching that? I’ll pay attention now”, the world stopped being on fire, America forgot what it was meant to be doing. The entire postwar status quo, from NATO to a demilitarized Japan, did not happen by accident and does not exist for no reason. There is zero evidence to suggest that American isolationism brought about the world wars. Are you suggesting that the world went to shit because the U.S. wasn't being world police? There is plenty evidence to suggest that isolationism works, though. From George Washington, to WW1 (maybe WW2), America was isolationist and prospered. Turned into a juggernaut economic power, with the highest standard of living in the world, in fact.
You being aware of zero evidence does not mean that there is zero evidence. There is an overwhelming body of evidence. It is a historical consensus. There is no legitimate academic contrarian position. In this you are simply ignorant.
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On March 12 2019 00:04 KwarK wrote:Show nested quote +On March 12 2019 00:00 BerserkSword wrote:On March 11 2019 23:47 KwarK wrote:On March 11 2019 22:16 BerserkSword wrote:On March 11 2019 22:08 farvacola wrote:
Isolationism didn’t work before nukes, the internet, and global public health awareness, and it sure as hell won’t work now or moving forward. it worked It brought us two world wars. America went isolationist, the world caught fire, America went “shit, was I meant to be watching that? I’ll pay attention now”, the world stopped being on fire, America forgot what it was meant to be doing. The entire postwar status quo, from NATO to a demilitarized Japan, did not happen by accident and does not exist for no reason. There is zero evidence to suggest that American isolationism brought about the world wars. Are you suggesting that the world went to shit because the U.S. wasn't being world police? There is plenty evidence to suggest that isolationism works, though. From George Washington, to WW1 (maybe WW2), America was isolationist and prospered. Turned into a juggernaut economic power, with the highest standard of living in the world, in fact. You being aware of zero evidence does not mean that there is zero evidence.
It is impossible to prove that American isolationism brought us the world wars like you claim it did. We cannot test that theory.
What we do know is that when the U.S. practiced isolationism, it prospered to the point of it having the highest standard of living on the planet.
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On March 12 2019 00:00 BerserkSword wrote:Show nested quote +On March 11 2019 23:47 KwarK wrote:On March 11 2019 22:16 BerserkSword wrote:On March 11 2019 22:08 farvacola wrote:
Isolationism didn’t work before nukes, the internet, and global public health awareness, and it sure as hell won’t work now or moving forward. it worked It brought us two world wars. America went isolationist, the world caught fire, America went “shit, was I meant to be watching that? I’ll pay attention now”, the world stopped being on fire, America forgot what it was meant to be doing. The entire postwar status quo, from NATO to a demilitarized Japan, did not happen by accident and does not exist for no reason. There is zero evidence to suggest that American isolationism brought about the world wars. Are you suggesting that the world went to shit because the U.S. wasn't being world police? There is plenty evidence to suggest that isolationism works, though. From George Washington, to WW1 (maybe WW2), America was isolationist and prospered. Turned into a juggernaut economic power, with the highest standard of living in the world, in fact. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_non-interventionismHere is the wikipedia article As you can see, George Washington himself championed isolationism. The founding fathers championed isolationism by virtue of the clearly defined role of the government, in the Constitution. And the U.S. remained virtually isolationist until WW2, where even that i would argue it was erring on the side of isolationism since it did not enter the war until Japan attacked, therefore involving the U.S.
The US was involved in 6 wars with other nations pre WW1 in the 20th century alone....
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_wars_involving_the_United_States
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On March 12 2019 00:00 BerserkSword wrote:Show nested quote +On March 11 2019 23:47 KwarK wrote:On March 11 2019 22:16 BerserkSword wrote:On March 11 2019 22:08 farvacola wrote:
Isolationism didn’t work before nukes, the internet, and global public health awareness, and it sure as hell won’t work now or moving forward. it worked It brought us two world wars. America went isolationist, the world caught fire, America went “shit, was I meant to be watching that? I’ll pay attention now”, the world stopped being on fire, America forgot what it was meant to be doing. The entire postwar status quo, from NATO to a demilitarized Japan, did not happen by accident and does not exist for no reason. There is zero evidence to suggest that American isolationism brought about the world wars. Are you suggesting that the world went to shit because the U.S. wasn't being world police? There is plenty evidence to suggest that isolationism works, though. From George Washington, to WW1 (maybe WW2), America was isolationist and prospered. Turned into a juggernaut economic power, with the highest standard of living in the world, in fact. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_non-interventionismHere is the wikipedia article As you can see, George Washington himself championed isolationism. The founding fathers championed isolationism by virtue of the clearly defined role of the government, in the Constitution. And the U.S. remained virtually isolationist until WW2, where even that i would argue it was erring on the side of isolationism since it did not enter the war until Japan attacked, therefore involving the U.S.
I'm pretty rapidly disengaging here because you're posting some things that demonstrate a, ahhhh, loose understanding of world history here, but - you're high level arguement here is that the US should go back to a foreign policy of isolationism, because the US was isolationist during its years of growth and prosperity?
On March 12 2019 00:06 BerserkSword wrote:Show nested quote +On March 12 2019 00:04 KwarK wrote:On March 12 2019 00:00 BerserkSword wrote:On March 11 2019 23:47 KwarK wrote:On March 11 2019 22:16 BerserkSword wrote:On March 11 2019 22:08 farvacola wrote:
Isolationism didn’t work before nukes, the internet, and global public health awareness, and it sure as hell won’t work now or moving forward. it worked It brought us two world wars. America went isolationist, the world caught fire, America went “shit, was I meant to be watching that? I’ll pay attention now”, the world stopped being on fire, America forgot what it was meant to be doing. The entire postwar status quo, from NATO to a demilitarized Japan, did not happen by accident and does not exist for no reason. There is zero evidence to suggest that American isolationism brought about the world wars. Are you suggesting that the world went to shit because the U.S. wasn't being world police? There is plenty evidence to suggest that isolationism works, though. From George Washington, to WW1 (maybe WW2), America was isolationist and prospered. Turned into a juggernaut economic power, with the highest standard of living in the world, in fact. You being aware of zero evidence does not mean that there is zero evidence. It is impossible to prove that American isolationism brought us the world wars like you claim it did. We cannot test that theory. What we do know is that when the U.S. practiced isolationism, it prospered to the point of it having the highest standard of living on the planet.
Ah okay, kinda what I thought. Regrettably, this is not an option today. I'll let the regulars in here explain why, but yeah you can go ahead and dismiss that idea outright, the sooner the better.
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On March 12 2019 00:08 IyMoon wrote:Show nested quote +On March 12 2019 00:00 BerserkSword wrote:On March 11 2019 23:47 KwarK wrote:On March 11 2019 22:16 BerserkSword wrote:On March 11 2019 22:08 farvacola wrote:
Isolationism didn’t work before nukes, the internet, and global public health awareness, and it sure as hell won’t work now or moving forward. it worked It brought us two world wars. America went isolationist, the world caught fire, America went “shit, was I meant to be watching that? I’ll pay attention now”, the world stopped being on fire, America forgot what it was meant to be doing. The entire postwar status quo, from NATO to a demilitarized Japan, did not happen by accident and does not exist for no reason. There is zero evidence to suggest that American isolationism brought about the world wars. Are you suggesting that the world went to shit because the U.S. wasn't being world police? There is plenty evidence to suggest that isolationism works, though. From George Washington, to WW1 (maybe WW2), America was isolationist and prospered. Turned into a juggernaut economic power, with the highest standard of living in the world, in fact. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_non-interventionismHere is the wikipedia article As you can see, George Washington himself championed isolationism. The founding fathers championed isolationism by virtue of the clearly defined role of the government, in the Constitution. And the U.S. remained virtually isolationist until WW2, where even that i would argue it was erring on the side of isolationism since it did not enter the war until Japan attacked, therefore involving the U.S. The US was involved in 6 wars with other nations pre WW1 in the 20th century alone.... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_wars_involving_the_United_States
Practicing isolationism =/= not engaging in wars
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United States42008 Posts
On March 12 2019 00:06 BerserkSword wrote:Show nested quote +On March 12 2019 00:04 KwarK wrote:On March 12 2019 00:00 BerserkSword wrote:On March 11 2019 23:47 KwarK wrote:On March 11 2019 22:16 BerserkSword wrote:On March 11 2019 22:08 farvacola wrote:
Isolationism didn’t work before nukes, the internet, and global public health awareness, and it sure as hell won’t work now or moving forward. it worked It brought us two world wars. America went isolationist, the world caught fire, America went “shit, was I meant to be watching that? I’ll pay attention now”, the world stopped being on fire, America forgot what it was meant to be doing. The entire postwar status quo, from NATO to a demilitarized Japan, did not happen by accident and does not exist for no reason. There is zero evidence to suggest that American isolationism brought about the world wars. Are you suggesting that the world went to shit because the U.S. wasn't being world police? There is plenty evidence to suggest that isolationism works, though. From George Washington, to WW1 (maybe WW2), America was isolationist and prospered. Turned into a juggernaut economic power, with the highest standard of living in the world, in fact. You being aware of zero evidence does not mean that there is zero evidence. It is impossible to prove that American isolationism brought us the world wars like you claim it did. We cannot test that theory. What we do know is that when the U.S. practiced isolationism, it prospered to the point of it having the highest standard of living on the planet.
We also know that when the US didn’t practice isolationism it also had the highest living standard. Also read a damn book. The American education system provides you with a decent excuse for your baseline level of ignorance but after a certain point you have to take responsibility for learning things yourself.
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United States42008 Posts
On March 12 2019 00:10 BerserkSword wrote:Show nested quote +On March 12 2019 00:08 IyMoon wrote:On March 12 2019 00:00 BerserkSword wrote:On March 11 2019 23:47 KwarK wrote:On March 11 2019 22:16 BerserkSword wrote:On March 11 2019 22:08 farvacola wrote:
Isolationism didn’t work before nukes, the internet, and global public health awareness, and it sure as hell won’t work now or moving forward. it worked It brought us two world wars. America went isolationist, the world caught fire, America went “shit, was I meant to be watching that? I’ll pay attention now”, the world stopped being on fire, America forgot what it was meant to be doing. The entire postwar status quo, from NATO to a demilitarized Japan, did not happen by accident and does not exist for no reason. There is zero evidence to suggest that American isolationism brought about the world wars. Are you suggesting that the world went to shit because the U.S. wasn't being world police? There is plenty evidence to suggest that isolationism works, though. From George Washington, to WW1 (maybe WW2), America was isolationist and prospered. Turned into a juggernaut economic power, with the highest standard of living in the world, in fact. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_non-interventionismHere is the wikipedia article As you can see, George Washington himself championed isolationism. The founding fathers championed isolationism by virtue of the clearly defined role of the government, in the Constitution. And the U.S. remained virtually isolationist until WW2, where even that i would argue it was erring on the side of isolationism since it did not enter the war until Japan attacked, therefore involving the U.S. The US was involved in 6 wars with other nations pre WW1 in the 20th century alone.... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_wars_involving_the_United_States Practicing isolationism =/= not engaging in wars
Lol?
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On March 12 2019 00:09 Aveng3r wrote:Show nested quote +On March 12 2019 00:00 BerserkSword wrote:On March 11 2019 23:47 KwarK wrote:On March 11 2019 22:16 BerserkSword wrote:On March 11 2019 22:08 farvacola wrote:
Isolationism didn’t work before nukes, the internet, and global public health awareness, and it sure as hell won’t work now or moving forward. it worked It brought us two world wars. America went isolationist, the world caught fire, America went “shit, was I meant to be watching that? I’ll pay attention now”, the world stopped being on fire, America forgot what it was meant to be doing. The entire postwar status quo, from NATO to a demilitarized Japan, did not happen by accident and does not exist for no reason. There is zero evidence to suggest that American isolationism brought about the world wars. Are you suggesting that the world went to shit because the U.S. wasn't being world police? There is plenty evidence to suggest that isolationism works, though. From George Washington, to WW1 (maybe WW2), America was isolationist and prospered. Turned into a juggernaut economic power, with the highest standard of living in the world, in fact. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_non-interventionismHere is the wikipedia article As you can see, George Washington himself championed isolationism. The founding fathers championed isolationism by virtue of the clearly defined role of the government, in the Constitution. And the U.S. remained virtually isolationist until WW2, where even that i would argue it was erring on the side of isolationism since it did not enter the war until Japan attacked, therefore involving the U.S. I'm pretty rapidly disengaging here because you're posting some things that demonstrate a, ahhhh, [i]loose[i] understanding of world history here, but - you're high level arguement here is that the US should go back to a foreign policy of isolationism, because the US was isolationist during its years of growth and prosperity?
That's not my argument.
But some people here are writing that isolation did not work when the U.S. did practice it. I mentioned the period of growth and prosperity during isolation as a counter to those claims.
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On March 12 2019 00:12 BerserkSword wrote:Show nested quote +On March 12 2019 00:09 Aveng3r wrote:On March 12 2019 00:00 BerserkSword wrote:On March 11 2019 23:47 KwarK wrote:On March 11 2019 22:16 BerserkSword wrote:On March 11 2019 22:08 farvacola wrote:
Isolationism didn’t work before nukes, the internet, and global public health awareness, and it sure as hell won’t work now or moving forward. it worked It brought us two world wars. America went isolationist, the world caught fire, America went “shit, was I meant to be watching that? I’ll pay attention now”, the world stopped being on fire, America forgot what it was meant to be doing. The entire postwar status quo, from NATO to a demilitarized Japan, did not happen by accident and does not exist for no reason. There is zero evidence to suggest that American isolationism brought about the world wars. Are you suggesting that the world went to shit because the U.S. wasn't being world police? There is plenty evidence to suggest that isolationism works, though. From George Washington, to WW1 (maybe WW2), America was isolationist and prospered. Turned into a juggernaut economic power, with the highest standard of living in the world, in fact. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_non-interventionismHere is the wikipedia article As you can see, George Washington himself championed isolationism. The founding fathers championed isolationism by virtue of the clearly defined role of the government, in the Constitution. And the U.S. remained virtually isolationist until WW2, where even that i would argue it was erring on the side of isolationism since it did not enter the war until Japan attacked, therefore involving the U.S. I'm pretty rapidly disengaging here because you're posting some things that demonstrate a, ahhhh, [i]loose[i] understanding of world history here, but - you're high level arguement here is that the US should go back to a foreign policy of isolationism, because the US was isolationist during its years of growth and prosperity? That's not my argument. But some people here are writing that isolation did not work when the U.S. did practice it. I mentioned the period of growth and prosperity during isolation as a counter to those claims.
What exactly is your argument, then?
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On March 12 2019 00:11 KwarK wrote:Show nested quote +On March 12 2019 00:10 BerserkSword wrote:On March 12 2019 00:08 IyMoon wrote:On March 12 2019 00:00 BerserkSword wrote:On March 11 2019 23:47 KwarK wrote:On March 11 2019 22:16 BerserkSword wrote:On March 11 2019 22:08 farvacola wrote:
Isolationism didn’t work before nukes, the internet, and global public health awareness, and it sure as hell won’t work now or moving forward. it worked It brought us two world wars. America went isolationist, the world caught fire, America went “shit, was I meant to be watching that? I’ll pay attention now”, the world stopped being on fire, America forgot what it was meant to be doing. The entire postwar status quo, from NATO to a demilitarized Japan, did not happen by accident and does not exist for no reason. There is zero evidence to suggest that American isolationism brought about the world wars. Are you suggesting that the world went to shit because the U.S. wasn't being world police? There is plenty evidence to suggest that isolationism works, though. From George Washington, to WW1 (maybe WW2), America was isolationist and prospered. Turned into a juggernaut economic power, with the highest standard of living in the world, in fact. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_non-interventionismHere is the wikipedia article As you can see, George Washington himself championed isolationism. The founding fathers championed isolationism by virtue of the clearly defined role of the government, in the Constitution. And the U.S. remained virtually isolationist until WW2, where even that i would argue it was erring on the side of isolationism since it did not enter the war until Japan attacked, therefore involving the U.S. The US was involved in 6 wars with other nations pre WW1 in the 20th century alone.... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_wars_involving_the_United_States Practicing isolationism =/= not engaging in wars Lol?
not engaging in wars is known as pacifism, not isolationism
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United States42008 Posts
On March 12 2019 00:13 BerserkSword wrote:Show nested quote +On March 12 2019 00:11 KwarK wrote:On March 12 2019 00:10 BerserkSword wrote:On March 12 2019 00:08 IyMoon wrote:On March 12 2019 00:00 BerserkSword wrote:On March 11 2019 23:47 KwarK wrote:On March 11 2019 22:16 BerserkSword wrote:On March 11 2019 22:08 farvacola wrote:
Isolationism didn’t work before nukes, the internet, and global public health awareness, and it sure as hell won’t work now or moving forward. it worked It brought us two world wars. America went isolationist, the world caught fire, America went “shit, was I meant to be watching that? I’ll pay attention now”, the world stopped being on fire, America forgot what it was meant to be doing. The entire postwar status quo, from NATO to a demilitarized Japan, did not happen by accident and does not exist for no reason. There is zero evidence to suggest that American isolationism brought about the world wars. Are you suggesting that the world went to shit because the U.S. wasn't being world police? There is plenty evidence to suggest that isolationism works, though. From George Washington, to WW1 (maybe WW2), America was isolationist and prospered. Turned into a juggernaut economic power, with the highest standard of living in the world, in fact. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_non-interventionismHere is the wikipedia article As you can see, George Washington himself championed isolationism. The founding fathers championed isolationism by virtue of the clearly defined role of the government, in the Constitution. And the U.S. remained virtually isolationist until WW2, where even that i would argue it was erring on the side of isolationism since it did not enter the war until Japan attacked, therefore involving the U.S. The US was involved in 6 wars with other nations pre WW1 in the 20th century alone.... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_wars_involving_the_United_States Practicing isolationism =/= not engaging in wars Lol? not engaging in wars is known as pacifism, not isolationism
Isolationism is when you are isolated. It’s in the name. If you’re in someone else’s country you’re not very isolated. You’ve got to stay home to be isolationist. It’s like a recluse in that regard. You can’t be a reclusive home invader.
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United States42008 Posts
You can’t keep the affairs of other countries at a distance, to quote your Wikipedia article, from inside the other country. Your link supports my argument, not yours. It even specifies that you have to be at peace. Did you read it?
while remaining in a state of peace
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This isn't adding to the discussion, we know what words mean. We are asking for clarification as to how these ideas pertain to your argument.
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while remaining in a state of peace by avoiding foreign entanglements and responsibilities
I mean.... come on man
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I'm not sure if you guys are being serious here...
are you just ignoring the word "foreign"?
It means that you dont involve yourself in shit that has nothing to do with you. If the affair has to do with you, you handle it, no matter where it is.
Maybe this link explains it better
https://www.u-s-history.com/pages/h1601.html
"American isolationism did not mean disengagement from the world stage. Isolationists were not averse to the idea that the United States should be a world player and even further its territorial, ideological and economic interests, particularly in the Western Hemisphere."
"The isolationist point of view was still viable in 1823 when President James Monroe gave voice to what would later be termed the Monroe Doctrine, "In the wars of the European powers, in matters relating to themselves, we have never taken part, nor does it comport with our policy, so to do.""
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On March 12 2019 00:34 BerserkSword wrote:I'm not sure if you guys are being serious here... are you just ignoring the word "foreign"? It means that you dont involve yourself in shit that has nothing to do with you. If the affair has to do with you, you handle it, no matter where it is. Maybe this link explains it better https://www.u-s-history.com/pages/h1601.html"American isolationism did not mean disengagement from the world stage. Isolationists were not averse to the idea that the United States should be a world player and even further its territorial, ideological and economic interests, particularly in the Western Hemisphere." "The isolationist point of view was still viable in 1823 when President James Monroe gave voice to what would later be termed the Monroe Doctrine, "In the wars of the European powers, in matters relating to themselves, we have never taken part, nor does it comport with our policy, so to do."" Right, as major world economy (if not the leader) everyones affairs effect the US and the US cares about the affairs of everyone because thats how the global economy works which the US needs to feed off to maintain its position.
Therefor US isolationism as practised by BerserkSword allows for Isolationism = World Police.
Glad we had this discussion.
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On March 12 2019 00:38 Gorsameth wrote:Show nested quote +On March 12 2019 00:34 BerserkSword wrote:I'm not sure if you guys are being serious here... are you just ignoring the word "foreign"? It means that you dont involve yourself in shit that has nothing to do with you. If the affair has to do with you, you handle it, no matter where it is. Maybe this link explains it better https://www.u-s-history.com/pages/h1601.html"American isolationism did not mean disengagement from the world stage. Isolationists were not averse to the idea that the United States should be a world player and even further its territorial, ideological and economic interests, particularly in the Western Hemisphere." "The isolationist point of view was still viable in 1823 when President James Monroe gave voice to what would later be termed the Monroe Doctrine, "In the wars of the European powers, in matters relating to themselves, we have never taken part, nor does it comport with our policy, so to do."" Right, as major world economy (if not the leader) everyones affairs effect the US and the US cares about the affairs of everyone because thats how the global economy works which the US needs to feed off to maintain its position. Therefor US isolationism as practised by BerserkSword allows for Isolationism = World Police. Glad we had this discussion.
thank you for confirming you are all just trolling a new poster
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On March 12 2019 00:40 BerserkSword wrote:Show nested quote +On March 12 2019 00:38 Gorsameth wrote:On March 12 2019 00:34 BerserkSword wrote:I'm not sure if you guys are being serious here... are you just ignoring the word "foreign"? It means that you dont involve yourself in shit that has nothing to do with you. If the affair has to do with you, you handle it, no matter where it is. Maybe this link explains it better https://www.u-s-history.com/pages/h1601.html"American isolationism did not mean disengagement from the world stage. Isolationists were not averse to the idea that the United States should be a world player and even further its territorial, ideological and economic interests, particularly in the Western Hemisphere." "The isolationist point of view was still viable in 1823 when President James Monroe gave voice to what would later be termed the Monroe Doctrine, "In the wars of the European powers, in matters relating to themselves, we have never taken part, nor does it comport with our policy, so to do."" Right, as major world economy (if not the leader) everyones affairs effect the US and the US cares about the affairs of everyone because thats how the global economy works which the US needs to feed off to maintain its position. Therefor US isolationism as practised by BerserkSword allows for Isolationism = World Police. Glad we had this discussion. thank you for confirming you are all just trolling a new poster People are trying to have a discussion with you that can get no-where because your points don't make sense and completely ignore reality and the world and when presented with this you don't take a moment to reflect on your position.
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EPT
