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On January 09 2019 03:41 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On January 09 2019 03:34 JimmiC wrote:On January 09 2019 00:41 iamthedave wrote:On January 09 2019 00:30 JimmiC wrote:
How about Federal workers continue to get paid and services remain as the last budget, but politicians fail to get paid until they do their job. It would suck for the few AOC's of the world that are just getting started. And I'm sure a bunch of the others despite their large incomes are also living pay check to pay check.
To me the flaw in the system is the consequence is not effecting the people creating the problem it is effecting a bunch of other people.
You could also maybe force them to work until it is done including weekends or something. I am not sure the exact solution but it appears that there is no direct consequence to the politicians which is a flaw. As I've already pointed out, this instantly corrupts the system in favour of the richest donors. They can simply starve out whichever side of Congress is poorer and get their way every single time. Even worse, you instantly weed out even the possibility of an AOC getting anywhere because they'd be the ones squeezed to death in such a situation. 'Sure it's bad, let's make it worse' is not a good strategy (as someone living in pre-Brexit England, I can confirm this). Yeah but in the US both parties are super well funded so waiting out one or the other would take forever. I also suggested have them working non stop till it was fixed. I'm pretty sure some of these people wouldn't have been willing to skip going home for Christmas. What the mechanism is I'm not set on. But that these is something that makes it uncomfortable on those who have the power to fix it makes sense. How do you force the Senators, the House Reps and President to work through the holidays exactly?
Especially when some of those Representatives were not reelected by the voters already and were just waiting for the end.
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On January 09 2019 03:58 Liquid`Drone wrote:Show nested quote +On January 09 2019 03:09 Plansix wrote:On January 09 2019 02:53 Excludos wrote:On January 09 2019 02:38 ticklishmusic wrote:On January 08 2019 23:57 Velr wrote:
If your system is breaking down due to "president" and "weak ass congress" i would argue that it is an error in your system. The reason that it comes to this is pretty sad but it would be pretty easy to set up a system that doesn't have this problem. A system is only as good as the people that are part of it. When you elect a moron to lead one branch and another branch is full of spineless cowards who are willing to cover for said moron and also disregard the impact their actions (or rather, inaction) has on the country because they're really only accountable to their donors because of Citizens United. Bad leaders is not a problem exclusive to US, but shutdowns have been solved in many other countried despite. That might be an indication that this is not a completely unsolvable situation. I'm a bit tired of these excuses, whether it be "Our country is unique!" Or in this case "Our leaders are just that bad". That doesn't mean you can't implement solutions to combat the problem in question. It isn't like your country is magic. You goverment agencies can be defunded just like our. Your goverment could pass a budget with zero dollars for public transit salaries because there is some labor dispute and your politicians are completely bitches. It just hasn't happened recently and you folks riot when it does. Or when France tries to tax fuel. When you say you all solved the problem, is more that a parliamentary system is required keep paying the bills when the government is in flux and new elections are happening. Your country is on autopilot until the election is over. There are likely a number very stupid things each of your governments does that would never exist in the US system. I can't remember the great riots of norway, when was that?
Did you folks riot in 2009 or something?
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Norway28704 Posts
On January 09 2019 04:14 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On January 09 2019 03:58 Liquid`Drone wrote:On January 09 2019 03:09 Plansix wrote:On January 09 2019 02:53 Excludos wrote:On January 09 2019 02:38 ticklishmusic wrote:On January 08 2019 23:57 Velr wrote:
If your system is breaking down due to "president" and "weak ass congress" i would argue that it is an error in your system. The reason that it comes to this is pretty sad but it would be pretty easy to set up a system that doesn't have this problem. A system is only as good as the people that are part of it. When you elect a moron to lead one branch and another branch is full of spineless cowards who are willing to cover for said moron and also disregard the impact their actions (or rather, inaction) has on the country because they're really only accountable to their donors because of Citizens United. Bad leaders is not a problem exclusive to US, but shutdowns have been solved in many other countried despite. That might be an indication that this is not a completely unsolvable situation. I'm a bit tired of these excuses, whether it be "Our country is unique!" Or in this case "Our leaders are just that bad". That doesn't mean you can't implement solutions to combat the problem in question. It isn't like your country is magic. You goverment agencies can be defunded just like our. Your goverment could pass a budget with zero dollars for public transit salaries because there is some labor dispute and your politicians are completely bitches. It just hasn't happened recently and you folks riot when it does. Or when France tries to tax fuel. When you say you all solved the problem, is more that a parliamentary system is required keep paying the bills when the government is in flux and new elections are happening. Your country is on autopilot until the election is over. There are likely a number very stupid things each of your governments does that would never exist in the US system. I can't remember the great riots of norway, when was that? Did you folks riot in 2009 or something?
No. The previous time Norwegians engaged in anything I'd consider a 'riot' would be 1878. Maybe you could make the case for 1903 or 1921, but those happened in tiny villages in the far north.
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On January 09 2019 04:22 Liquid`Drone wrote:Show nested quote +On January 09 2019 04:14 Plansix wrote:On January 09 2019 03:58 Liquid`Drone wrote:On January 09 2019 03:09 Plansix wrote:On January 09 2019 02:53 Excludos wrote:On January 09 2019 02:38 ticklishmusic wrote:On January 08 2019 23:57 Velr wrote:
If your system is breaking down due to "president" and "weak ass congress" i would argue that it is an error in your system. The reason that it comes to this is pretty sad but it would be pretty easy to set up a system that doesn't have this problem. A system is only as good as the people that are part of it. When you elect a moron to lead one branch and another branch is full of spineless cowards who are willing to cover for said moron and also disregard the impact their actions (or rather, inaction) has on the country because they're really only accountable to their donors because of Citizens United. Bad leaders is not a problem exclusive to US, but shutdowns have been solved in many other countried despite. That might be an indication that this is not a completely unsolvable situation. I'm a bit tired of these excuses, whether it be "Our country is unique!" Or in this case "Our leaders are just that bad". That doesn't mean you can't implement solutions to combat the problem in question. It isn't like your country is magic. You goverment agencies can be defunded just like our. Your goverment could pass a budget with zero dollars for public transit salaries because there is some labor dispute and your politicians are completely bitches. It just hasn't happened recently and you folks riot when it does. Or when France tries to tax fuel. When you say you all solved the problem, is more that a parliamentary system is required keep paying the bills when the government is in flux and new elections are happening. Your country is on autopilot until the election is over. There are likely a number very stupid things each of your governments does that would never exist in the US system. I can't remember the great riots of norway, when was that? Did you folks riot in 2009 or something? No. The previous time Norwegians engaged in anything I'd consider a 'riot' would be 1878. Maybe you could make the case for 1903 or 1921, but those happened in tiny villages in the far north.
So the recent unrest in France, is that a riot? Or just a protest that results in burned cars?
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On January 09 2019 04:28 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On January 09 2019 04:22 Liquid`Drone wrote:On January 09 2019 04:14 Plansix wrote:On January 09 2019 03:58 Liquid`Drone wrote:On January 09 2019 03:09 Plansix wrote:On January 09 2019 02:53 Excludos wrote:On January 09 2019 02:38 ticklishmusic wrote:On January 08 2019 23:57 Velr wrote:
If your system is breaking down due to "president" and "weak ass congress" i would argue that it is an error in your system. The reason that it comes to this is pretty sad but it would be pretty easy to set up a system that doesn't have this problem. A system is only as good as the people that are part of it. When you elect a moron to lead one branch and another branch is full of spineless cowards who are willing to cover for said moron and also disregard the impact their actions (or rather, inaction) has on the country because they're really only accountable to their donors because of Citizens United. Bad leaders is not a problem exclusive to US, but shutdowns have been solved in many other countried despite. That might be an indication that this is not a completely unsolvable situation. I'm a bit tired of these excuses, whether it be "Our country is unique!" Or in this case "Our leaders are just that bad". That doesn't mean you can't implement solutions to combat the problem in question. It isn't like your country is magic. You goverment agencies can be defunded just like our. Your goverment could pass a budget with zero dollars for public transit salaries because there is some labor dispute and your politicians are completely bitches. It just hasn't happened recently and you folks riot when it does. Or when France tries to tax fuel. When you say you all solved the problem, is more that a parliamentary system is required keep paying the bills when the government is in flux and new elections are happening. Your country is on autopilot until the election is over. There are likely a number very stupid things each of your governments does that would never exist in the US system. I can't remember the great riots of norway, when was that? Did you folks riot in 2009 or something? No. The previous time Norwegians engaged in anything I'd consider a 'riot' would be 1878. Maybe you could make the case for 1903 or 1921, but those happened in tiny villages in the far north. So the recent unrest in France, is that a riot? Or just a protest that results in burned cars?
Burning cars is a regular sunday family event in France. Thats like going for a baseball game in the US.
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On January 09 2019 04:08 Blitzkrieg0 wrote:Show nested quote +On January 09 2019 03:41 Plansix wrote:On January 09 2019 03:34 JimmiC wrote:On January 09 2019 00:41 iamthedave wrote:On January 09 2019 00:30 JimmiC wrote:
How about Federal workers continue to get paid and services remain as the last budget, but politicians fail to get paid until they do their job. It would suck for the few AOC's of the world that are just getting started. And I'm sure a bunch of the others despite their large incomes are also living pay check to pay check.
To me the flaw in the system is the consequence is not effecting the people creating the problem it is effecting a bunch of other people.
You could also maybe force them to work until it is done including weekends or something. I am not sure the exact solution but it appears that there is no direct consequence to the politicians which is a flaw. As I've already pointed out, this instantly corrupts the system in favour of the richest donors. They can simply starve out whichever side of Congress is poorer and get their way every single time. Even worse, you instantly weed out even the possibility of an AOC getting anywhere because they'd be the ones squeezed to death in such a situation. 'Sure it's bad, let's make it worse' is not a good strategy (as someone living in pre-Brexit England, I can confirm this). Yeah but in the US both parties are super well funded so waiting out one or the other would take forever. I also suggested have them working non stop till it was fixed. I'm pretty sure some of these people wouldn't have been willing to skip going home for Christmas. What the mechanism is I'm not set on. But that these is something that makes it uncomfortable on those who have the power to fix it makes sense. How do you force the Senators, the House Reps and President to work through the holidays exactly? Especially when some of those Representatives were not reelected by the voters already and were just waiting for the end.
Dunno, that sounds like something that you could make laws for. Of course, the people making those laws would have to be congress, and they don't seem to want to make any laws whatsoever.
I am uncertain though, what does currently happen when a senator just never turns up for senate?
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Norway28704 Posts
We haven't had anything like what you see in France today since 1878. That event lasted for two days also. You answered a Norwegian poster saying 'and you folks riot when it does', but this just isn't grounded in reality, like, not at all. You can't look at France and think 'that's how all of western europe is' any more than you can look at Mississippi to make conclusions about the bay area.
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On January 09 2019 04:36 Simberto wrote:Show nested quote +On January 09 2019 04:08 Blitzkrieg0 wrote:On January 09 2019 03:41 Plansix wrote:On January 09 2019 03:34 JimmiC wrote:On January 09 2019 00:41 iamthedave wrote:On January 09 2019 00:30 JimmiC wrote:
How about Federal workers continue to get paid and services remain as the last budget, but politicians fail to get paid until they do their job. It would suck for the few AOC's of the world that are just getting started. And I'm sure a bunch of the others despite their large incomes are also living pay check to pay check.
To me the flaw in the system is the consequence is not effecting the people creating the problem it is effecting a bunch of other people.
You could also maybe force them to work until it is done including weekends or something. I am not sure the exact solution but it appears that there is no direct consequence to the politicians which is a flaw. As I've already pointed out, this instantly corrupts the system in favour of the richest donors. They can simply starve out whichever side of Congress is poorer and get their way every single time. Even worse, you instantly weed out even the possibility of an AOC getting anywhere because they'd be the ones squeezed to death in such a situation. 'Sure it's bad, let's make it worse' is not a good strategy (as someone living in pre-Brexit England, I can confirm this). Yeah but in the US both parties are super well funded so waiting out one or the other would take forever. I also suggested have them working non stop till it was fixed. I'm pretty sure some of these people wouldn't have been willing to skip going home for Christmas. What the mechanism is I'm not set on. But that these is something that makes it uncomfortable on those who have the power to fix it makes sense. How do you force the Senators, the House Reps and President to work through the holidays exactly? Especially when some of those Representatives were not reelected by the voters already and were just waiting for the end. Dunno, that sounds like something that you could make laws for. Of course, the people making those laws would have to be congress, and they don't seem to want to make any laws whatsoever. I am uncertain though, what does currently happen when a senator just never turns up for senate?
Don't think MPs in most European parliaments have any particular obligation to show up in parliament either. But they'll be booted out of their party, and 4 years later, be jobless. Doesn't seem like a sound career plan.
I'd expect a similar thing occurs in the US?
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There's quite a few MP's that don't turn up in parliament or just sleep in the UK. Some places are just safe seats afterall.
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Sorry for late answer, that meeting lasted foreeeeever. Anyways:
On January 09 2019 03:01 brian wrote:Show nested quote +On January 09 2019 02:53 Excludos wrote:On January 09 2019 02:38 ticklishmusic wrote:On January 08 2019 23:57 Velr wrote:
If your system is breaking down due to "president" and "weak ass congress" i would argue that it is an error in your system. The reason that it comes to this is pretty sad but it would be pretty easy to set up a system that doesn't have this problem. A system is only as good as the people that are part of it. When you elect a moron to lead one branch and another branch is full of spineless cowards who are willing to cover for said moron and also disregard the impact their actions (or rather, inaction) has on the country because they're really only accountable to their donors because of Citizens United. Bad leaders is not a problem exclusive to US, but shutdowns have been solved in many other countried despite. That might be an indication that this is not a completely unsolvable situation. I'm a bit tired of these excuses, whether it be "Our country is unique!" Or in this case "Our leaders are just that bad". That doesn't mean you can't implement solutions to combat the problem in question. i think you have a bit of work to do between claiming a different handling of the process = ‘a better solution,’ especially with regards to the numerous differences in the various government structures. nobody is claiming american exceptionalism here, if you think one of the solved cases in other governments can apply we’re all all-ears. i think we’re all collectively tired of the american exceptionalism bullshit from all parties.
There's been plenty of potential solutions brought fourth already, among other things: Letting the budget for last year carry over, immediate reelection, or in minor or major ways punishing the leaders themselves (Salary cutting might not be a good option, but forcing them to work is definitively one). I'm not saying there's no claim to refute any one of these options, but refuting them collectively because "Our leaders are stupid so it won't work anyways" is both lazy and counter to the point of why these needs to be implemented in the first place. It's a bit like saying "Why should we take the knife away from the kids? They're just going to hurt themselves anyways".
On January 09 2019 03:09 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On January 09 2019 02:53 Excludos wrote:On January 09 2019 02:38 ticklishmusic wrote:On January 08 2019 23:57 Velr wrote:
If your system is breaking down due to "president" and "weak ass congress" i would argue that it is an error in your system. The reason that it comes to this is pretty sad but it would be pretty easy to set up a system that doesn't have this problem. A system is only as good as the people that are part of it. When you elect a moron to lead one branch and another branch is full of spineless cowards who are willing to cover for said moron and also disregard the impact their actions (or rather, inaction) has on the country because they're really only accountable to their donors because of Citizens United. Bad leaders is not a problem exclusive to US, but shutdowns have been solved in many other countried despite. That might be an indication that this is not a completely unsolvable situation. I'm a bit tired of these excuses, whether it be "Our country is unique!" Or in this case "Our leaders are just that bad". That doesn't mean you can't implement solutions to combat the problem in question. It isn't like your country is magic. You goverment agencies can be defunded just like our. Your goverment could pass a budget with zero dollars for public transit salaries because there is some labor dispute and your politicians are completely bitches. It just hasn't happened recently and you folks riot when it does. Or when France tries to tax fuel. When you say you all solved the problem, is more that a parliamentary system is required keep paying the bills when the government is in flux and new elections are happening. Your country is on autopilot until the election is over. There are likely a number very stupid things each of your governments does that would never exist in the US system.
Uhm, no, they can't. Norway has about an infinite amount of checks and balances to make sure things like this doesn't happen. The negative side of it is that it also restricts a lot of progress, and in some areas (like infrastructure), it really shows how behind/slow/bad we can be about things. I never claimed we have ALL problems solved, far from it, but we do have this very specific one solved. And if another country has something working that you don't, it's not completely unreasonable to say "Maybe you guys should look into that?"
Also Drone has already commented on the riots we haven't had. I don't even remember when there was a major demonstration, except in 2011 in response to the mass shooting.
On January 09 2019 03:49 Ryzel wrote:Show nested quote +On January 09 2019 02:53 Excludos wrote:On January 09 2019 02:38 ticklishmusic wrote:On January 08 2019 23:57 Velr wrote:
If your system is breaking down due to "president" and "weak ass congress" i would argue that it is an error in your system. The reason that it comes to this is pretty sad but it would be pretty easy to set up a system that doesn't have this problem. A system is only as good as the people that are part of it. When you elect a moron to lead one branch and another branch is full of spineless cowards who are willing to cover for said moron and also disregard the impact their actions (or rather, inaction) has on the country because they're really only accountable to their donors because of Citizens United. Bad leaders is not a problem exclusive to US, but shutdowns have been solved in many other countried despite. That might be an indication that this is not a completely unsolvable situation. I'm a bit tired of these excuses, whether it be "Our country is unique!" Or in this case "Our leaders are just that bad". That doesn't mean you can't implement solutions to combat the problem in question. Your use of the word excuses, especially the follow-up sentence at the end, implies that you think it’s possible for us, the posters, to solve this problem. Do you really think it’s our fault? What can we do that we haven’t already done?
Why would I think it's your fault? That's a bit of a straw man. But people are defending a system which can be fixed/improved upon as if it couldn't, and it's perfectly ok to refute those claims without making a case for them personally being the responsible for the problem in the first place.
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On January 09 2019 04:39 Liquid`Drone wrote:
We haven't had anything like what you see in France today since 1878. That event lasted for two days also. You answered a Norwegian poster saying 'and you folks riot when it does', but this just isn't grounded in reality, like, not at all. You can't look at France and think 'that's how all of western europe is' any more than you can look at Mississippi to make conclusions about the bay area.
The reason I asked is all the coverage surrounding that event in 2009 calls it a riot. I tripled checked and read some of the coverage just to refresh myself But obviously, foreign press often provides shitty coverage of things that happen in other countries, so I wanted to make sure I understood.
And when it comes to the topic of government of other nations, I try to avoid being completely hyperbolic when EU posters crap on the US system. But apparently that is sort of the nature of this discussion. So on that note, Norway is a tiny little country off five million people in a cold section of Europe. That is the entire population of the tiny little state I live in. And we only riot when the Red Sox lose(or win) and our government is always funded. If the entire US was just New England, we would never have this problem. But that isn't the case. But congrats to Norway for being as impressive as one of our more functional states.
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You know Plansix, you do this a lot. This American exceptionalism that you beleive take place simply because a country has larger area or has a larger population. That USA's constitution allows for the rather unique position of an unfunded government shutdown is exclusive of population or area.
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On January 09 2019 05:09 Dangermousecatdog wrote:
You know Plansix, you do this a lot. This American exceptionalism that you beleive take place simply because a country has larger area or has a larger population. That USA's constitution allows for the rather unique position of an unfunded government shutdown is exclusive of population or area.
Being large is not exceptional. It is just fact. We are a big country. New England is not the Midwest is not the South.
I have a hard time with the “There are solutions, other nations that have almost zero resemblance to the US in scale, scope and makeup have solved this problem” argument when it has nothing else to back it up.
And finally, our government completely not shut down. Only part of it is. Several agencies within the Federal government. All 50 state governments are fully functional, with Florida and Missouri being Florida and Missouri levels of functional. The majority of the Federal Government is funded.
I get that it is weird for people in the EU to think about that. But you know what is weird for people in the US? A government failing and just holding elections out of no place. Or snap elections. The concept of a parliamentary system as a whole is pretty wild for people in the US who are not used to reading about it.
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I have a hard time with the “There are solutions, other nations that have almost zero resemblance to the US in scale, scope and makeup have solved this problem” argument when it has nothing else to back it up.
And that isn't exceptionalism. Right.
Actually, there's plenty of stuff backing up that claim. You'd need to explain why in fact it wouldn't be working in the US, and with a bit more depth than "well we're bigger, also more special, so there". Start with gerrymandering, and why many other countries were able to fix it (while still having it in place, where others simply abolished the practice altogether).
You're right that european style health care (the good health care) wouldn't be working in the US, that's where "scale" actually makes sense. Fixing political processes/systems has nothing to do with scale. It doesn't matter if you gerrymander 5 million or 500 million people. It's not a "necessity" to democracy, it's a way to manipulate it. By arguing that everything is the way it is because the US is big and special, you're part of the problem.
Why isn't it fixable in the US, or rather, why is it impossible to fix due to size and general specialness?
Of course, you can't turn the US overnight into a parliamentary monarchy - but to argue that shit can't be fixed is stupid. You don't need to revamp the entire system (or "abolish" it) - you need to fix the glaring problems with it that cause bullshit at the end. Like a president that the majority of your country didn't actually vote for.
This is the entire "we can't fix healthcare" bullshit all over again. We can't get a 100% great system to work, so we rather watch people die on the streets instead of improving what we have. Exceptional.
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And I think in P6s defense also, the US is in the unique position of a large part of it hating the federal government with a blinding, searing passion normally reserved for lifelong enemies, and multiple people in the government whose literal stated goals are to kill it.
We don't have - snark aside - many politicians actively trying to destroy their own government. That's what's going on with the US government. I've seen a post on here not too long ago in response to the shutdown which was, verbatim 'Shut that shit down. And keep it shut down.'
The US people have a... complicated relationship with the Fed.
See how many people in the US went FUCKING MENTAL at the idea of the EBUL GOVERNMENT handling healthcare over the ACA. And they did this only because the government was doing it.
There's a very different relationship between the common man and the government over there.
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On January 09 2019 05:59 iamthedave wrote:
And I think in P6s defense also, the US is in the unique position of a large part of it hating the federal government with a blinding, searing passion normally reserved for lifelong enemies, and multiple people in the government whose literal stated goals are to kill it.
We don't have - snark aside - many politicians actively trying to destroy their own government. That's what's going on with the US government. I've seen a post on here not too long ago in response to the shutdown which was, verbatim 'Shut that shit down. And keep it shut down.'
The US people have a... complicated relationship with the Fed.
See how many people in the US went FUCKING MENTAL at the idea of the EBUL GOVERNMENT handling healthcare over the ACA. And they did this only because the government was doing it.
There's a very different relationship between the common man and the government over there.
you guys don't really understand. There are elements of our nation that really don't want a federal gov and those elements somehow got people into the federal government
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Americans, by and large, are fucking ignorant. If you go into any discussion with that in mind, you'll be fine. We're not exceptional in any sense of the word except that we're the best at being the worst. We have 350mil people, and yet the politicians we select are the "best" we have to offer. We're a fucking miserable mess that do not want to be fixed. We thrive in the struggle we create for ourselves.
Blame education and religion. Or whatever. But America, as a Black American, is a fucking cesspool of inadequacy, inefficiency, and ignorance.
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On January 09 2019 05:56 m4ini wrote:Show nested quote +I have a hard time with the “There are solutions, other nations that have almost zero resemblance to the US in scale, scope and makeup have solved this problem” argument when it has nothing else to back it up.
And that isn't exceptionalism. Right. Actually, there's plenty of stuff backing up that claim. You'd need to explain why in fact it wouldn't be working in the US, and with a bit more depth than "well we're bigger, also more special, so there". Start with gerrymandering, and why many other countries were able to fix it (while still having it in place, where others simply abolished the practice altogether). You're right that european style health care (the good health care) wouldn't be working in the US, that's where "scale" actually makes sense. Fixing political processes/systems has nothing to do with scale. It doesn't matter if you gerrymander 5 million or 500 million people. It's not a "necessity" to democracy, it's a way to manipulate it. By arguing that everything is the way it is because the US is big and special, you're part of the problem. Why isn't it fixable in the US, or rather, why is it impossible to fix due to size and general specialness? Of course, you can't turn the US overnight into a parliamentary monarchy - but to argue that shit can't be fixed is stupid. You don't need to revamp the entire system (or "abolish" it) - you need to fix the glaring problems with it that cause bullshit at the end. Like a president that the majority of your country didn't actually vote for. This is the entire "we can't fix healthcare" bullshit all over again. We can't get a 100% great system to work, so we rather watch people die on the streets instead of improving what we have. Exceptional.
Now you are putting word in my mouth. I never said that the problems in the US couldn’t be fixed by adapting the lessons learned by the EU nations. I’m all about using the systems of other governments to improve our own. I won’t even stop at healthcare. I’m sure some EU nation has a better system for police and police oversight.
But that isn’t what we are talking about. We are talking about when governments fail to accomplish the basic things they are required to do on a basic level. Parliamentary systems are not magically immune to voters electing shitty people who don’t understand the government and cause parts of it to fail. There is no magical cure for an apathetic electorate. Just because your government isn’t stupid today doesn’t mean it is immune to being stupid at a later date.
On January 09 2019 06:04 IyMoon wrote:Show nested quote +On January 09 2019 05:59 iamthedave wrote:
And I think in P6s defense also, the US is in the unique position of a large part of it hating the federal government with a blinding, searing passion normally reserved for lifelong enemies, and multiple people in the government whose literal stated goals are to kill it.
We don't have - snark aside - many politicians actively trying to destroy their own government. That's what's going on with the US government. I've seen a post on here not too long ago in response to the shutdown which was, verbatim 'Shut that shit down. And keep it shut down.'
The US people have a... complicated relationship with the Fed.
See how many people in the US went FUCKING MENTAL at the idea of the EBUL GOVERNMENT handling healthcare over the ACA. And they did this only because the government was doing it.
There's a very different relationship between the common man and the government over there. you guys don't really understand. There are elements of our nation that really don't want a federal gov and those elements somehow got people into the federal government
The Freedom Caucus got into the House and immediately sought out ways to force the federal government to shut down. They discovered that the debt ceiling was raised about once a year as part of funding the government and refused to raise it, risking the US defaulting on our debts. That was the entire plan, to force shutdowns and try to get budget cuts because of the shut downs.
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On January 09 2019 06:15 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On January 09 2019 05:56 m4ini wrote:I have a hard time with the “There are solutions, other nations that have almost zero resemblance to the US in scale, scope and makeup have solved this problem” argument when it has nothing else to back it up.
And that isn't exceptionalism. Right. Actually, there's plenty of stuff backing up that claim. You'd need to explain why in fact it wouldn't be working in the US, and with a bit more depth than "well we're bigger, also more special, so there". Start with gerrymandering, and why many other countries were able to fix it (while still having it in place, where others simply abolished the practice altogether). You're right that european style health care (the good health care) wouldn't be working in the US, that's where "scale" actually makes sense. Fixing political processes/systems has nothing to do with scale. It doesn't matter if you gerrymander 5 million or 500 million people. It's not a "necessity" to democracy, it's a way to manipulate it. By arguing that everything is the way it is because the US is big and special, you're part of the problem. Why isn't it fixable in the US, or rather, why is it impossible to fix due to size and general specialness? Of course, you can't turn the US overnight into a parliamentary monarchy - but to argue that shit can't be fixed is stupid. You don't need to revamp the entire system (or "abolish" it) - you need to fix the glaring problems with it that cause bullshit at the end. Like a president that the majority of your country didn't actually vote for. This is the entire "we can't fix healthcare" bullshit all over again. We can't get a 100% great system to work, so we rather watch people die on the streets instead of improving what we have. Exceptional. Now you are putting word in my mouth. I never said that the problems in the US couldn’t be fixed by adapting the lessons learned by the EU nations. I’m all about using the systems of other governments to improve our own. I won’t even stop at healthcare. I’m sure some EU nation has a better system for police and police oversight. But that isn’t what we are talking about. We are talking about when governments fail to accomplish the basic things they are required to do on a basic level. Parliamentary systems are not magically immune to voters electing shitty people who don’t understand the government and cause parts of it to fail. There is no magical cure for an apathetic electorate. Just because your government isn’t stupid today doesn’t mean it is immune to being stupid at a later date. Show nested quote +On January 09 2019 06:04 IyMoon wrote:On January 09 2019 05:59 iamthedave wrote:
And I think in P6s defense also, the US is in the unique position of a large part of it hating the federal government with a blinding, searing passion normally reserved for lifelong enemies, and multiple people in the government whose literal stated goals are to kill it.
We don't have - snark aside - many politicians actively trying to destroy their own government. That's what's going on with the US government. I've seen a post on here not too long ago in response to the shutdown which was, verbatim 'Shut that shit down. And keep it shut down.'
The US people have a... complicated relationship with the Fed.
See how many people in the US went FUCKING MENTAL at the idea of the EBUL GOVERNMENT handling healthcare over the ACA. And they did this only because the government was doing it.
There's a very different relationship between the common man and the government over there. you guys don't really understand. There are elements of our nation that really don't want a federal gov and those elements somehow got people into the federal government The Freedom Caucus got into the House and immediately sought out ways to force the federal government to shut down. They discovered that the debt ceiling was raised about once a year as part of funding the government and refused to raise it, risking the US defaulting on our debts. That was the entire plan, to force shutdowns and try to get budget cuts because of the shut downs. Stupid people can indeed get elected. But a congress that can't/won't govern won't actually last very long
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On January 09 2019 06:27 Gorsameth wrote:Show nested quote +On January 09 2019 06:15 Plansix wrote:On January 09 2019 05:56 m4ini wrote:I have a hard time with the “There are solutions, other nations that have almost zero resemblance to the US in scale, scope and makeup have solved this problem” argument when it has nothing else to back it up.
And that isn't exceptionalism. Right. Actually, there's plenty of stuff backing up that claim. You'd need to explain why in fact it wouldn't be working in the US, and with a bit more depth than "well we're bigger, also more special, so there". Start with gerrymandering, and why many other countries were able to fix it (while still having it in place, where others simply abolished the practice altogether). You're right that european style health care (the good health care) wouldn't be working in the US, that's where "scale" actually makes sense. Fixing political processes/systems has nothing to do with scale. It doesn't matter if you gerrymander 5 million or 500 million people. It's not a "necessity" to democracy, it's a way to manipulate it. By arguing that everything is the way it is because the US is big and special, you're part of the problem. Why isn't it fixable in the US, or rather, why is it impossible to fix due to size and general specialness? Of course, you can't turn the US overnight into a parliamentary monarchy - but to argue that shit can't be fixed is stupid. You don't need to revamp the entire system (or "abolish" it) - you need to fix the glaring problems with it that cause bullshit at the end. Like a president that the majority of your country didn't actually vote for. This is the entire "we can't fix healthcare" bullshit all over again. We can't get a 100% great system to work, so we rather watch people die on the streets instead of improving what we have. Exceptional. Now you are putting word in my mouth. I never said that the problems in the US couldn’t be fixed by adapting the lessons learned by the EU nations. I’m all about using the systems of other governments to improve our own. I won’t even stop at healthcare. I’m sure some EU nation has a better system for police and police oversight. But that isn’t what we are talking about. We are talking about when governments fail to accomplish the basic things they are required to do on a basic level. Parliamentary systems are not magically immune to voters electing shitty people who don’t understand the government and cause parts of it to fail. There is no magical cure for an apathetic electorate. Just because your government isn’t stupid today doesn’t mean it is immune to being stupid at a later date. On January 09 2019 06:04 IyMoon wrote:On January 09 2019 05:59 iamthedave wrote:
And I think in P6s defense also, the US is in the unique position of a large part of it hating the federal government with a blinding, searing passion normally reserved for lifelong enemies, and multiple people in the government whose literal stated goals are to kill it.
We don't have - snark aside - many politicians actively trying to destroy their own government. That's what's going on with the US government. I've seen a post on here not too long ago in response to the shutdown which was, verbatim 'Shut that shit down. And keep it shut down.'
The US people have a... complicated relationship with the Fed.
See how many people in the US went FUCKING MENTAL at the idea of the EBUL GOVERNMENT handling healthcare over the ACA. And they did this only because the government was doing it.
There's a very different relationship between the common man and the government over there. you guys don't really understand. There are elements of our nation that really don't want a federal gov and those elements somehow got people into the federal government The Freedom Caucus got into the House and immediately sought out ways to force the federal government to shut down. They discovered that the debt ceiling was raised about once a year as part of funding the government and refused to raise it, risking the US defaulting on our debts. That was the entire plan, to force shutdowns and try to get budget cuts because of the shut downs. Stupid people can indeed get elected. But a congress that can't/won't govern won't actually last very long
But how long will they be allowed to last? Months? Weeks?
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