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Germany3128 Posts
On July 23 2016 16:32 DeepElemBlues wrote:
The shooter had both German and Iranian citizenship. I don't know how Iran handles conferring citizenship so he could have been born in Iran or Germany. He doesn't fit the ISIS profile insofar as he doesn't appear to have a criminal record, petty or otherwise, unlike almost all the other ISIS cell members or ISIS inspired terrorists in Europe the last 2 years. Terrorists don't stand around in the open screaming vulgarities back and forth with civilians either. It looks like he's extremely emotionally disturbed or even insane from that video, but he could very well turn out to be inspired by ISIS or Islamic radicalism in general. He could be insane and inspired by Islamic radicalism. Or none of that, who knows.
AFAIK you only need an Iranian male ancestor to get Iranian citizenship. If he had a great-great-grandfather from Iran it's possible that he could get Iranian citizenship though he would need to apply for it ( which I guess is not to likely for an 18 year old). One of my acquaintances was such a case though, though it was a grandfather in his case.
If your father is Iranian you automatically (if your parents are married) get the Iranian citizenship.
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On July 23 2016 16:27 Surth wrote:Fuck you for real, Testie. I was making sure that friends of mine in munich were safe yesterday before going to sleep and yet the thing that manages to upset me the most once more is you, you little shit. In the video you can see the shooter being called a " kanake" to which he replies, basically "Dude, I'm german". And here you are talking about "men that don't look German." I'm going out on a limb here (you could say I'm jumping to conclusions, but then, you'd know what that looks like, wouldn't you?), but it almost seems like this fucker of a kid was resentful about the fact that most of German society throughout his life didn't treat him like a German, despite him being, well, German (well, Bavarian at any rate...). This is just mindless speculation, of course. Then again, people being thought of as "not german" despite being german is a problem in this country with much more history than fucking ISIS, so I think my speculation is better than yours.
You're right. You are jumping to conclusions.
"Feels compelled to shoot people"
Look how much personal agency you've robbed the man of who just shot 26 people.
He did it because he didn't feel welcome enough, clearly. Congratulations on molding a cold blooded murderer into a baby who just didn't feel welcome enough. If this kid possessed as much empathy as you suggest, he never would have done this in the first place. Even if he worked himself up to it he wouldn't have continued pulling the trigger after his first bullet hit his first victim. If this kid was anything like the narrative you've created for him in your head, after pulling the trigger the first time he would have dropped the gun in horror in the crowd and started crying and asked for help. He'd know from personal experience that it's wrong to treat others how they don't want to be treated and to dehumanize them. I highly doubt the man was persecuted day in and day out by his peers enough to push him into doing this. Don't shift the blame, nobody forced this man to do what he did. So don't use the word "compelled" again. That's a terrible word to use for things like this.
From the way the man moved and talked, he simply seemed sick in the head and we're waiting for more details.
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Zurich15366 Posts
On July 23 2016 18:42 AngryMag wrote:
Our society gets polarized more and more, I don't understand the reasons why fully. Years ago "all foreigners out" wasn't really a position. Today being very critical of immigration seems to reach the mainstream. On the other end of the spectrum we have a lot of borderline pathological do gooders and social justice warriors. Many of their views are incredibly warped, you can read some of them in this thread.
This is what concerns me most. Especially in Germany, there seems to be very little reasonable middle ground left. People just put blinders on and run toward one corner of extremism.
As a result, instead of uniting to face the actual, real challenges we have in front of us now we are screaming at each other in increasingly shrill voices.
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On July 23 2016 18:59 zatic wrote:
As a result, instead of uniting to face the actual, real challenges we have in front of us now we are screaming at each other in increasingly shrill voices.
It's because when people say things like this, they offer no solutions. This sounds like an empty platitude. Have heard it for decades from other communities. Also, you have to simply accept the fact that some people's solution is simply, "I have a solution. Kick them back out to where they came from. They're not worth the trouble." That person saying it didn't ask for it or to be a part of it, and wants nothing to do with it. And that is that persons right to choose that if he pays his taxes like a good citizen.
I'm not attacking you personally, there's a general anger at people who say, "we have to come up with solutions!" Great, you're interested in solutions, you name them. You come up with them, you offer them and we'll see if it's worth accepting. Odds are the solution is a class of people heavily dependent on welfare and more likely to be involved in crime with a lot of concessions to our society like increased violence, sexual assaults, and more racism and division that wouldn't have happened in the first place. So it's up to the people offering platitudes to offer something better.
The guy was born in Germany so this isn't particularly related to the incident so I'm not conflating the two issues of the gun attack with immigration.
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Zurich15366 Posts
Press conference from the investigation just now:
- Attacker was using a 9mm Glock
- Gun was probably illegally purchased, serial number filed off
- Attacker was carrying about 300 shots of ammo
- Attacker was NOT shot by police, as was reported last night
- Only wound was a self inflicted head shot
- When searching his apartment, they found plenty of material on previous spree killings / school shooting, including video and a book of profiles of school shooters
- Since there is no evidence at all for a political motivated act, investigations turned back to state (not federal)
- Attacker still lived with his parents in Munich
- Both parents work in Munich
- There is a younger brother as well
- None of family or acquaintances known to police
- 4300 emergency calls placed last night
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Has anyone read whats the deal with his parents btw?
That's one thing I've come to realize that never gets any attention. Most of these fucked-up killers are young. So most must have had shit parenting, why is that never analyzed?
I was bullied at a very young age as well but I was taught to value life so I would never go out and slaughter innocent people.
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On July 23 2016 18:59 zatic wrote:Show nested quote +On July 23 2016 18:42 AngryMag wrote:
Our society gets polarized more and more, I don't understand the reasons why fully. Years ago "all foreigners out" wasn't really a position. Today being very critical of immigration seems to reach the mainstream. On the other end of the spectrum we have a lot of borderline pathological do gooders and social justice warriors. Many of their views are incredibly warped, you can read some of them in this thread. This is what concerns me most. Especially in Germany, there seems to be very little reasonable middle ground left. People just put blinders on and run toward one corner of extremism. As a result, instead of uniting to face the actual, real challenges we have in front of us now we are screaming at each other in increasingly shrill voices.
It is perfectly normal :
- the decisions have already been made on migration before any kind of collective discussion ;
- the mainstream analysis is, or was, almost entirely pro migration and negated any kind of discussion on the topic (how many "studies" on the economic benefit of migration ?).
So basically not only a big portion of the mainstream left basically argued that any arguments against migration is fueled by evil intent (xenophobia more than reason), but the democratic debate had no importance whatsoever since everything was already decided. That's the kind of situation that create extremism rather than a balanced view.
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On July 23 2016 18:59 zatic wrote:Show nested quote +On July 23 2016 18:42 AngryMag wrote:
Our society gets polarized more and more, I don't understand the reasons why fully. Years ago "all foreigners out" wasn't really a position. Today being very critical of immigration seems to reach the mainstream. On the other end of the spectrum we have a lot of borderline pathological do gooders and social justice warriors. Many of their views are incredibly warped, you can read some of them in this thread. This is what concerns me most. Especially in Germany, there seems to be very little reasonable middle ground left. People just put blinders on and run toward one corner of extremism. As a result, instead of uniting to face the actual, real challenges we have in front of us now we are screaming at each other in increasingly shrill voices.
Thats how Germany has always been, just that in the past alot of people had much less way to find out that they are not alone with their "extreme" positions. The germans never been a liberal country, liberalism is flowing in our society, but not based on the believes of the german people.
In 5 years the thing we call today politicle middle ground will be vanish and completly ruled out by right wing and left wing moves.
To the act:
CNN seems to be on the spirit of MSNBC (only source for Erdogan wantin asylum in Germany) with their Allah Akbar shoutings. Looks for me like the guys we had mass shooting in schools in the past years (Erfurt and Winnenden).
Time might tell, but that will not matter, the rift that is pulling our society in Germany appart will become bigger and bigger each day and the attacks on our liberal society will become stronger and harder by any right wings, left wings and muslim migrants.
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On July 23 2016 18:34 Nebuchad wrote:Show nested quote +On July 23 2016 18:10 D_lux wrote:Our society will hopefully understand that if this is the price for a free, liberal, diverse and colourful society, it is more then cheap. I am sad about all victims of this tragedy, but still, as a society, we have to pay that price. This last comment of yours is actually very frightening. So in essence you are willing to sacrifice innocent lives, your fellow countrymen, just so you can pound your chest and show it to everyone what a good liberal, multicultured, politically always correct guy you are? You are willing to accept that killing people is the only way your ideologies can manifest, and you are proud of it? If this is not the case please clarify! Skipping that you're not using "kill" accurately in this, this is very much a remix of the security vs liberty debate. I'd argue that literally everyone is okay with letting a few people die because of how they view a perfect society, and I think it's pretty dishonest to be appalled at the notion. There are plenty of ways you could make a population safer that you (presumably) disagree with, unless you're okay with a police state and a big brother system.
That perfect society is pretty shitty if a group of innocent people gets murdered every week 'for the cause'.
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On July 23 2016 18:10 D_lux wrote:Show nested quote +Our society will hopefully understand that if this is the price for a free, liberal, diverse and colourful society, it is more then cheap. I am sad about all victims of this tragedy, but still, as a society, we have to pay that price. This last comment of yours is actually very frightening. So in essence you are willing to sacrifice innocent lives, your fellow countrymen, just so you can pound your chest and show it to everyone what a good liberal, multicultured, politically always correct guy you are? You are willing to accept that killing people is the only way your ideologies can manifest, and you are proud of it? If this is not the case please clarify! edit: i just realised that this isn't the european politico-something thread. I didn't want to derail this thread from the original Munich shootings.
Uhm. no. People have claimed that a multicultural soeciety with "the wrong cultures" is the reason for this shooting. I disagree on that, but i could see a better case for it in regards to Nice or the Würzburg attack. So if we would assume that without letting people of the wrong culture into France we had avoided Nice, then i disagree on the notion that this means we should thrive to abolish that multicultural society. Because our societies have a) shown basic humanity by letting refugees in and b) profited well enough from letting economic immigrants into the country. So even if these attacks are the direct result of having our current society we shouldn't change that society because the price is fair. "Ausländer Raus(Foreigners out)" is no possibility and not accepting refugees is below us.
On July 23 2016 18:10 D_lux wrote:
On the other hand if you are a liberal you should also accept the fact that there are other people who see things differently, and their opinions matter just as much as yours. Many people do not wish to kill their own countrymen and fellow Europeans for the sake of being liberal, diverse and multi cultured people. Justifying the killings of innocent lives because you want your ideology to happen, is not something i would like to take part in. Some people don't share your views. Thats why for example Hungary will have a vote on if they want to let in uncountable amounts of "refugees" in their country. It is a democratic process and if the majority says no, than you have to accept that, that some people are not ready to die for your ideologies. Even if you don't approve of this, you will have to accept the will of the majority (at least in Hungary) (It is also strange why no other europen country asks their citizens if they are okay with their politicians flooding their country with unregistered, unknown people).
You may have your opinion, i just think it's morally wrong and stupid. And i will do my best to not let it become the majority opinion of the country. If it becomes the majority opinion, then it should reflect the politics as well, because yes, that's what democracy is about. But i do hope that we are better then that.
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Zurich15366 Posts
Q&A:
(So far only retarded questions)
- Attacker was in school still
- Glock 17 used
- Attacker did not have a gun ownership license
- No evidence of any connection to the Würzburg attack
- Unknown if he was on drugs or medication
- State of his possible psychological issues unknown at this point
- GSG9 was requested by Munich police and used to assault the apartment of the attacker
- They assume the date was picked intentionally since the attacker seemed to have studied previous spree killings intensively
- About 100 people sought refuge at the local police station
- Unknown if the attacker had any sort of gun proficiency
- Victims from both the McD inside, outside, and in the mall shootings (different from information last night)
- Police exchanged fire with the attacker when he was on the parking deck
- Attacker used "hacked" facebook account to announce attack shortly before (this seems BS to me but it's what they said)
Press conference over.
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On July 23 2016 19:09 Broetchenholer wrote:Show nested quote +On July 23 2016 18:10 D_lux wrote:Our society will hopefully understand that if this is the price for a free, liberal, diverse and colourful society, it is more then cheap. I am sad about all victims of this tragedy, but still, as a society, we have to pay that price. This last comment of yours is actually very frightening. So in essence you are willing to sacrifice innocent lives, your fellow countrymen, just so you can pound your chest and show it to everyone what a good liberal, multicultured, politically always correct guy you are? You are willing to accept that killing people is the only way your ideologies can manifest, and you are proud of it? If this is not the case please clarify! edit: i just realised that this isn't the european politico-something thread. I didn't want to derail this thread from the original Munich shootings. Uhm. no. People have claimed that a multicultural soeciety with "the wrong cultures" is the reason for this shooting. I disagree on that, but i could see a better case for it in regards to Nice or the Würzburg attack. So if we would assume that without letting people of the wrong culture into France we had avoided Nice, then i disagree on the notion that this means we should thrive to abolish that multicultural society. Because our societies have a) shown basic humanity by letting refugees in and b) profited well enough from letting economic immigrants into the country. So even if these attacks are the direct result of having our current society we shouldn't change that society because the price is fair. "Ausländer Raus(Foreigners out)" is no possibility and not accepting refugees is below us. Show nested quote +On July 23 2016 18:10 D_lux wrote:
On the other hand if you are a liberal you should also accept the fact that there are other people who see things differently, and their opinions matter just as much as yours. Many people do not wish to kill their own countrymen and fellow Europeans for the sake of being liberal, diverse and multi cultured people. Justifying the killings of innocent lives because you want your ideology to happen, is not something i would like to take part in. Some people don't share your views. Thats why for example Hungary will have a vote on if they want to let in uncountable amounts of "refugees" in their country. It is a democratic process and if the majority says no, than you have to accept that, that some people are not ready to die for your ideologies. Even if you don't approve of this, you will have to accept the will of the majority (at least in Hungary) (It is also strange why no other europen country asks their citizens if they are okay with their politicians flooding their country with unregistered, unknown people).
You may have your opinion, i just think it's morally wrong and stupid. And i will do my best to not let it become the majority opinion of the country. If it becomes the majority opinion, then it should reflect the politics as well, because yes, that's what democracy is about. But i do hope that we are better then that.
Denouncing other opinions as stupid, as below your own ideas, stating that society needs to pay the price and all that other stuff is borderline fascist rethoric. It is very funny how close you are to the people you pretend to hate so much in many positions.
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On July 23 2016 19:09 Broetchenholer wrote:Show nested quote +On July 23 2016 18:10 D_lux wrote:Our society will hopefully understand that if this is the price for a free, liberal, diverse and colourful society, it is more then cheap. I am sad about all victims of this tragedy, but still, as a society, we have to pay that price. This last comment of yours is actually very frightening. So in essence you are willing to sacrifice innocent lives, your fellow countrymen, just so you can pound your chest and show it to everyone what a good liberal, multicultured, politically always correct guy you are? You are willing to accept that killing people is the only way your ideologies can manifest, and you are proud of it? If this is not the case please clarify! edit: i just realised that this isn't the european politico-something thread. I didn't want to derail this thread from the original Munich shootings. Uhm. no. People have claimed that a multicultural soeciety with "the wrong cultures" is the reason for this shooting. I disagree on that, but i could see a better case for it in regards to Nice or the Würzburg attack. So if we would assume that without letting people of the wrong culture into France we had avoided Nice, then i disagree on the notion that this means we should thrive to abolish that multicultural society. Because our societies have a) shown basic humanity by letting refugees in and b) profited well enough from letting economic immigrants into the country. So even if these attacks are the direct result of having our current society we shouldn't change that society because the price is fair. "Ausländer Raus(Foreigners out)" is no possibility and not accepting refugees is below us. Show nested quote +On July 23 2016 18:10 D_lux wrote:
On the other hand if you are a liberal you should also accept the fact that there are other people who see things differently, and their opinions matter just as much as yours. Many people do not wish to kill their own countrymen and fellow Europeans for the sake of being liberal, diverse and multi cultured people. Justifying the killings of innocent lives because you want your ideology to happen, is not something i would like to take part in. Some people don't share your views. Thats why for example Hungary will have a vote on if they want to let in uncountable amounts of "refugees" in their country. It is a democratic process and if the majority says no, than you have to accept that, that some people are not ready to die for your ideologies. Even if you don't approve of this, you will have to accept the will of the majority (at least in Hungary) (It is also strange why no other europen country asks their citizens if they are okay with their politicians flooding their country with unregistered, unknown people).
You may have your opinion, i just think it's morally wrong and stupid. And i will do my best to not let it become the majority opinion of the country. If it becomes the majority opinion, then it should reflect the politics as well, because yes, that's what democracy is about. But i do hope that we are better then that.
It's your opinion that is morally wrong, it's the best solution to create extremism. If you believe that welcoming refugee is the morally acceptable thing to do, and a very small portion of those refugee kill innocent people, considering those people to be an "acceptable price" is absolute shit.
What you need to do, if you're responsible and believe in democratic values, is find a solution that would both stay morally acceptable (still welcoming refugee) but that reduce the casualty to apaise the people. Stating that "it is how it is" is the best way to let an extremist comes and take all the power. I'm very, very shocked that people don't understand that basic reality: misery and sadness, if not answered, create cruelty.
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On July 23 2016 19:15 zatic wrote:
Q&A:
(So far only retarded questions)
- Attacker was in school still
- Glock 17 used
- Attacker did not have a gun ownership license
- No evidence of any connection to the Würzburg attack
- Unknown if he was on drugs or medication
- State of his possible psychological issues unknown at this point
Still in school? Ok now I really blame the parents
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On July 23 2016 19:09 Broetchenholer wrote:Show nested quote +On July 23 2016 18:10 D_lux wrote:Our society will hopefully understand that if this is the price for a free, liberal, diverse and colourful society, it is more then cheap. I am sad about all victims of this tragedy, but still, as a society, we have to pay that price. This last comment of yours is actually very frightening. So in essence you are willing to sacrifice innocent lives, your fellow countrymen, just so you can pound your chest and show it to everyone what a good liberal, multicultured, politically always correct guy you are? You are willing to accept that killing people is the only way your ideologies can manifest, and you are proud of it? If this is not the case please clarify! edit: i just realised that this isn't the european politico-something thread. I didn't want to derail this thread from the original Munich shootings. Uhm. no. People have claimed that a multicultural soeciety with "the wrong cultures" is the reason for this shooting. I disagree on that, but i could see a better case for it in regards to Nice or the Würzburg attack. So if we would assume that without letting people of the wrong culture into France we had avoided Nice, then i disagree on the notion that this means we should thrive to abolish that multicultural society. Because our societies have a) shown basic humanity by letting refugees in and b) profited well enough from letting economic immigrants into the country. So even if these attacks are the direct result of having our current society we shouldn't change that society because the price is fair. "Ausländer Raus(Foreigners out)" is no possibility and not accepting refugees is below us. Show nested quote +On July 23 2016 18:10 D_lux wrote:
On the other hand if you are a liberal you should also accept the fact that there are other people who see things differently, and their opinions matter just as much as yours. Many people do not wish to kill their own countrymen and fellow Europeans for the sake of being liberal, diverse and multi cultured people. Justifying the killings of innocent lives because you want your ideology to happen, is not something i would like to take part in. Some people don't share your views. Thats why for example Hungary will have a vote on if they want to let in uncountable amounts of "refugees" in their country. It is a democratic process and if the majority says no, than you have to accept that, that some people are not ready to die for your ideologies. Even if you don't approve of this, you will have to accept the will of the majority (at least in Hungary) (It is also strange why no other europen country asks their citizens if they are okay with their politicians flooding their country with unregistered, unknown people).
You may have your opinion, i just think it's morally wrong and stupid. And i will do my best to not let it become the majority opinion of the country. If it becomes the majority opinion, then it should reflect the politics as well, because yes, that's what democracy is about. But i do hope that we are better then that.
I like how you claim the moral pedestal to these issues against the people having different opinion. Also the price is fair according to you? You are very easy to sacrifice life of others for your values.
The difference between us here on the right and the lefties is that we dont judge other values as better or worse like you do. We do appreciate all the things you point out, we just dont agree with the degree they are implemented, because quite realistically it is hurting our societies.
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On July 23 2016 18:56 SK.Testie wrote:
You're right. You are jumping to conclusions.
- When searching his apartment, they found plenty of material on previous spree killings / school shooting, including video and a book of profiles of school shooters
The correct ones, it seems. Of course, you perhaps could have reached correct conclusions as well if you had any knowledge of what happens in Germany (our sad history of school shootings and Amokläufe more generally) instead of reading Breitbart and screaming SHARIA LAW IN THE STREETS OF BERLIN all the time.
Look how much personal agency you've robbed the man of who just shot 26 people. He did it because he didn't feel welcome enough, clearly. Congratulations on molding a cold blooded murderer into a baby who just didn't feel welcome enough. If this kid possessed as much empathy as you suggest, he never would have done this in the first place. Even if he worked himself up to it he wouldn't have continued pulling the trigger after his first bullet hit his first victim. If this kid was anything like the narrative you've created for him in your head, after pulling the trigger the first time he would have dropped the gun in horror in the crowd and started crying and asked for help. He'd know from personal experience that it's wrong to treat others how they don't want to be treated and to dehumanize them. I highly doubt the man was persecuted day in and day out by his peers enough to push him into doing this. Don't shift the blame, nobody forced this man to do what he did. So don't use the word "compelled" again. That's a terrible word to use for things like this. From the way the man moved and talked, he simply seemed sick in the head and we're waiting for more details.
[/quote] Personal agency is something for enlightenment philosophers and libertarians, i.e. uneducated enlightenment philosophers. Personal agency has been dead for centuries, ask Foucault. I never painted him to be empathetic, by the way. You know whats a terrible word (or rather, phrase) to use? "German looking". And giving me shit about "waiting for more details" in a thread that literally popped up within 30 minutes of this shooting, within which you gleefully looked for islamic angles, is pretty rich.
Was the kid a murderer? Definitely. An asshole? I don't know, probably. Psychologically ill? Assumedly. But most people do not turn into murderers, or assholes, or psychologically ill, without something somewhere going very very wrong.
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So apparently only one of the victims was older than 20. Another thing that for me looks sadly similar to school shootings.
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On July 23 2016 19:17 AngryMag wrote:Show nested quote +On July 23 2016 19:09 Broetchenholer wrote:On July 23 2016 18:10 D_lux wrote:Our society will hopefully understand that if this is the price for a free, liberal, diverse and colourful society, it is more then cheap. I am sad about all victims of this tragedy, but still, as a society, we have to pay that price. This last comment of yours is actually very frightening. So in essence you are willing to sacrifice innocent lives, your fellow countrymen, just so you can pound your chest and show it to everyone what a good liberal, multicultured, politically always correct guy you are? You are willing to accept that killing people is the only way your ideologies can manifest, and you are proud of it? If this is not the case please clarify! edit: i just realised that this isn't the european politico-something thread. I didn't want to derail this thread from the original Munich shootings. Uhm. no. People have claimed that a multicultural soeciety with "the wrong cultures" is the reason for this shooting. I disagree on that, but i could see a better case for it in regards to Nice or the Würzburg attack. So if we would assume that without letting people of the wrong culture into France we had avoided Nice, then i disagree on the notion that this means we should thrive to abolish that multicultural society. Because our societies have a) shown basic humanity by letting refugees in and b) profited well enough from letting economic immigrants into the country. So even if these attacks are the direct result of having our current society we shouldn't change that society because the price is fair. "Ausländer Raus(Foreigners out)" is no possibility and not accepting refugees is below us. On July 23 2016 18:10 D_lux wrote:
On the other hand if you are a liberal you should also accept the fact that there are other people who see things differently, and their opinions matter just as much as yours. Many people do not wish to kill their own countrymen and fellow Europeans for the sake of being liberal, diverse and multi cultured people. Justifying the killings of innocent lives because you want your ideology to happen, is not something i would like to take part in. Some people don't share your views. Thats why for example Hungary will have a vote on if they want to let in uncountable amounts of "refugees" in their country. It is a democratic process and if the majority says no, than you have to accept that, that some people are not ready to die for your ideologies. Even if you don't approve of this, you will have to accept the will of the majority (at least in Hungary) (It is also strange why no other europen country asks their citizens if they are okay with their politicians flooding their country with unregistered, unknown people).
You may have your opinion, i just think it's morally wrong and stupid. And i will do my best to not let it become the majority opinion of the country. If it becomes the majority opinion, then it should reflect the politics as well, because yes, that's what democracy is about. But i do hope that we are better then that. Denouncing other opinions as stupid, as below your own ideas, stating that society needs to pay the price and all that other stuff is borderline fascist rethoric. It is very funny how close you are to the people you pretend to hate so much in many positions.
Sure, i am guilty of thinking that right extremist ideas are stupid and below our society.
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On July 23 2016 19:36 Broetchenholer wrote:Show nested quote +On July 23 2016 19:17 AngryMag wrote:On July 23 2016 19:09 Broetchenholer wrote:On July 23 2016 18:10 D_lux wrote:Our society will hopefully understand that if this is the price for a free, liberal, diverse and colourful society, it is more then cheap. I am sad about all victims of this tragedy, but still, as a society, we have to pay that price. This last comment of yours is actually very frightening. So in essence you are willing to sacrifice innocent lives, your fellow countrymen, just so you can pound your chest and show it to everyone what a good liberal, multicultured, politically always correct guy you are? You are willing to accept that killing people is the only way your ideologies can manifest, and you are proud of it? If this is not the case please clarify! edit: i just realised that this isn't the european politico-something thread. I didn't want to derail this thread from the original Munich shootings. Uhm. no. People have claimed that a multicultural soeciety with "the wrong cultures" is the reason for this shooting. I disagree on that, but i could see a better case for it in regards to Nice or the Würzburg attack. So if we would assume that without letting people of the wrong culture into France we had avoided Nice, then i disagree on the notion that this means we should thrive to abolish that multicultural society. Because our societies have a) shown basic humanity by letting refugees in and b) profited well enough from letting economic immigrants into the country. So even if these attacks are the direct result of having our current society we shouldn't change that society because the price is fair. "Ausländer Raus(Foreigners out)" is no possibility and not accepting refugees is below us. On July 23 2016 18:10 D_lux wrote:
On the other hand if you are a liberal you should also accept the fact that there are other people who see things differently, and their opinions matter just as much as yours. Many people do not wish to kill their own countrymen and fellow Europeans for the sake of being liberal, diverse and multi cultured people. Justifying the killings of innocent lives because you want your ideology to happen, is not something i would like to take part in. Some people don't share your views. Thats why for example Hungary will have a vote on if they want to let in uncountable amounts of "refugees" in their country. It is a democratic process and if the majority says no, than you have to accept that, that some people are not ready to die for your ideologies. Even if you don't approve of this, you will have to accept the will of the majority (at least in Hungary) (It is also strange why no other europen country asks their citizens if they are okay with their politicians flooding their country with unregistered, unknown people).
You may have your opinion, i just think it's morally wrong and stupid. And i will do my best to not let it become the majority opinion of the country. If it becomes the majority opinion, then it should reflect the politics as well, because yes, that's what democracy is about. But i do hope that we are better then that. Denouncing other opinions as stupid, as below your own ideas, stating that society needs to pay the price and all that other stuff is borderline fascist rethoric. It is very funny how close you are to the people you pretend to hate so much in many positions. Sure, i am guilty of thinking that right extremist ideas are stupid and below our society.
Who here is a right extremist according to you?
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On July 23 2016 19:36 Broetchenholer wrote:Show nested quote +On July 23 2016 19:17 AngryMag wrote:On July 23 2016 19:09 Broetchenholer wrote:On July 23 2016 18:10 D_lux wrote:Our society will hopefully understand that if this is the price for a free, liberal, diverse and colourful society, it is more then cheap. I am sad about all victims of this tragedy, but still, as a society, we have to pay that price. This last comment of yours is actually very frightening. So in essence you are willing to sacrifice innocent lives, your fellow countrymen, just so you can pound your chest and show it to everyone what a good liberal, multicultured, politically always correct guy you are? You are willing to accept that killing people is the only way your ideologies can manifest, and you are proud of it? If this is not the case please clarify! edit: i just realised that this isn't the european politico-something thread. I didn't want to derail this thread from the original Munich shootings. Uhm. no. People have claimed that a multicultural soeciety with "the wrong cultures" is the reason for this shooting. I disagree on that, but i could see a better case for it in regards to Nice or the Würzburg attack. So if we would assume that without letting people of the wrong culture into France we had avoided Nice, then i disagree on the notion that this means we should thrive to abolish that multicultural society. Because our societies have a) shown basic humanity by letting refugees in and b) profited well enough from letting economic immigrants into the country. So even if these attacks are the direct result of having our current society we shouldn't change that society because the price is fair. "Ausländer Raus(Foreigners out)" is no possibility and not accepting refugees is below us. On July 23 2016 18:10 D_lux wrote:
On the other hand if you are a liberal you should also accept the fact that there are other people who see things differently, and their opinions matter just as much as yours. Many people do not wish to kill their own countrymen and fellow Europeans for the sake of being liberal, diverse and multi cultured people. Justifying the killings of innocent lives because you want your ideology to happen, is not something i would like to take part in. Some people don't share your views. Thats why for example Hungary will have a vote on if they want to let in uncountable amounts of "refugees" in their country. It is a democratic process and if the majority says no, than you have to accept that, that some people are not ready to die for your ideologies. Even if you don't approve of this, you will have to accept the will of the majority (at least in Hungary) (It is also strange why no other europen country asks their citizens if they are okay with their politicians flooding their country with unregistered, unknown people).
You may have your opinion, i just think it's morally wrong and stupid. And i will do my best to not let it become the majority opinion of the country. If it becomes the majority opinion, then it should reflect the politics as well, because yes, that's what democracy is about. But i do hope that we are better then that. Denouncing other opinions as stupid, as below your own ideas, stating that society needs to pay the price and all that other stuff is borderline fascist rethoric. It is very funny how close you are to the people you pretend to hate so much in many positions. Sure, i am guilty of thinking that right extremist ideas are stupid and below our society.
Being critical of unregistered immigration is not being a right wing extremist but who am I telling this
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EPT
