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Nyxisto
Germany6287 Posts
On July 23 2016 10:31 TheNewEra wrote: Would this be an actual possibility even though ISIS is Sunni and would love to kill most of the Iranians who are Shias? Yes, most of the current wave of terrorists have no idea who they're pledging allegiance to. ISIS also loves to kill Sunnis. | ||
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sharkie
Austria18637 Posts
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Archeon
3265 Posts
On July 23 2016 10:31 TheNewEra wrote: Would this be an actual possibility even though ISIS is Sunni and would love to kill most of the Iranians who are Shias? I think the factor is more that the fanatic crazy Shias hate Sunnis and as an extension ISIS as much as the other way round. On July 23 2016 10:32 Dan HH wrote: As you say, most Iranians. There's a 1 in 10 chance he's Sunni According to wiki it's more like 1 in 20 and a large part of the Inarian Sunnis seem to be Kurds. So chances are extremely low. Also the attacker was born in Germany and described himself as a German (in perfect German) after being labeled as a "Kanacke", which is a very negative word German for immigrant/foreigner. Source for that is a video which is supposed to show the attacker arguing with a cop (not a safe source) from a very far distance. @border control: virtually impossible within the EU and already in action with outside countries esp. from the middle east. The deal with Turkey is nothing but a closed wall atm. | ||
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Mafe
Germany5966 Posts
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Surth
Germany456 Posts
Its actually very possible for those societies to be very safe. You'll have to abolish "multiculturism" first tho (at least to a degree). Yes, its very possible for societies to be safe from the actions of, say, a schizophrenic (referencing not Munich here but DeepElemBlues, whom you quoted), by "abolishing multiculturalism." Do you ever read the shit the you write? I fully support this, I wish more people would see that a homogeneous society almost always is a better society I think complexity theory would seem to disagree with this. Homogeneity makes for fragility...To clarify, it doesn't have to be purely based on ethnicity, a society needs its people to have something they all share, like religion, beliefs, background, etc. Since all of this is just ridiculous speculation anyway (there is literally zero indication of this being islamic, while the gunman himself clearly and audibly said "Ich bin deutscher ey" in response to being called a "kanacke"), let me also ridiculously speculate. Our school system fucking sucks and breeds inequality. I think you can add this attack to the list of high school shootings in Germany instead of to the list of Islamic Attacks and you'll be closer to the truth. | ||
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sharkie
Austria18637 Posts
On July 23 2016 15:52 Surth wrote: Yes, its very possible for societies to be safe from the actions of, say, a schizophrenic (referencing not Munich here but DeepElemBlues, whom you quoted), by "abolishing multiculturalism." Do you ever read the shit the you write? I think complexity theory would seem to disagree with this. Homogeneity makes for fragility... Since all of this is just ridiculous speculation anyway (there is literally zero indication of this being islamic, while the gunman himself clearly and audibly said "Ich bin deutscher ey" in response to being called a "kanacke"), let me also ridiculously speculate. Our school system fucking sucks and breeds inequality. I think you can add this attack to the list of high school shootings in Germany instead of to the list of Islamic Attacks and you'll be closer to the truth. What does suck about German school system? | ||
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Surth
Germany456 Posts
On July 23 2016 16:04 sharkie wrote: What does suck about German school system? What doesn't? The Hauptschule/Realschule/Gymnasium dreiteilung for one thing, I actually happened to talk with someone about this just a few days ago, how she transferred to a Gymnasium from Realschule and spent the next two years being insulted by assholes. Our school system is pretty good at class warfare. Not saying this is very much related to what has happened in Munich. But, to quote the likes of Testie whenever something happens that may or may not be related to islam, "I wouldn't be surprised if it was!" Poor guy, he's obviously a victim here. No, people who become indiscriminately violent have obviously never had any problems in life, some of which may have not been their fault. I think the fact that our discourse always centers so much on victims is a problem (it has to do with melodrama becoming the overriding mode of our society, i think), but when a person that is 18 years old feels compelled to shoot people, I dare say something has gone wrong somewhere. On July 23 2016 07:17 SK.Testie wrote: Non-credible sources. I repeat, non-credible sources: [...] Some photos of men arrested that don't look German. Credible: Still waiting. Conflicting reports or just not enough information. I wouldn't jump to conclusions on this particular shooting. Fuck you for real, Testie. I was making sure that friends of mine in munich were safe yesterday before going to sleep and yet the thing that manages to upset me the most once more is you, you little shit. In the video you can see the shooter being called a "kanake" to which he replies, basically "Dude, I'm german". And here you are talking about "men that don't look German." I'm going out on a limb here (you could say I'm jumping to conclusions, but then, you'd know what that looks like, wouldn't you?), but it almost seems like this fucker of a kid was resentful about the fact that most of German society throughout his life didn't treat him like a German, despite him being, well, German (well, Bavarian at any rate...). This is just mindless speculation, of course. Then again, people being thought of as "not german" despite being german is a problem in this country with much more history than fucking ISIS, so I think my speculation is better than yours. | ||
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sharkie
Austria18637 Posts
On July 23 2016 16:27 Surth wrote: What doesn't? The Hauptschule/Realschule/Gymnasium dreiteilung for one thing, I actually happened to talk with someone about this just a few days ago, how she transferred to a Gymnasium from Realschule and spent the next two years being insulted by assholes. Our school system is pretty good at class warfare. Not saying this is very much related to what has happened in Munich. But, to quote the likes of Testie whenever something happens that may or may not be related to islam, "I wouldn't be surprised if it was!" No, people who become indiscriminately violent have obviously never had any problems in life, some of which may have not been their fault. I think the fact that our discourse always centers so much on victims is a problem (it has to do with melodrama becoming the overriding mode of our society, i think), but when a person that is 18 years old feels compelled to shoot people, I dare say something has gone wrong somewhere. Fuck you for real, Testie. I was making sure that friends of mine in munich were safe yesterday before going to sleep and yet the thing that manages to upset me the most once more is you, you little shit. In the video you can see the shooter being called a "kanake" to which he replies, basically "Dude, I'm german". And here you are talking about "men that don't look German." I'm going out on a limb here (you could say I'm jumping to conclusions, but then, you'd know what that looks like, wouldn't you?), but it almost seems like this fucker of a kid was resentful about the fact that most of German society throughout his life didn't treat him like a German, despite him being, well, German (well, Bavarian at any rate...). This is just mindless speculation, of course. Then again, people being thought of as "not german" despite being german is a problem in this country with much more history than fucking ISIS, so I think my speculation is better than yours. And which school system is better than that? I actually like the division of schools, we have the same here in Austria. | ||
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DeepElemBlues
United States5079 Posts
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maartendq
Belgium3115 Posts
On July 23 2016 09:48 Vin{MBL} wrote: The problem with this is that if you limit immigration, population growth slows dramatically and the entire economy stagnates (see: Japan for the last 20 years). Quite on the contrary. Migrants are overrepresented in unemployment figures and high school dropout figures, in addition to being underqualified to work in countries with very high education levels and requirements. Economically speaking, the kind of migration you need is that of highly qualified people who would have high-paying jobs and subsequently pay a lot of taxes. The migration Western Europe has been getting for a long time, however, is the opposite of that. Unemployment figures among low-skilled workers are already quite high so saying that you need more (largely unskilled) migrants to compensate for a lack of population growth is nonsense. | ||
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Broetchenholer
Germany1961 Posts
On July 23 2016 09:55 FiWiFaKi wrote: That's a rather shallow analysis. Firstly, it's not like this problem is unsolvable. Second, if you want to talk immigration, look at labour force participation. Bringing in immigrants for economic reasons is like taking out a 20% annual interest loan, and spirals into an endless cycle once you realize that then the immigrants will want to bring in their older families and not reproduce as quickly either. Even economically a very short term focused plan. You do realize that a big chunk of our immigrant population came here only for one reason, and that is to work. All the italians and Turks came here to work and helped us rebuild the nation after so many german were dead. Another part of our immigrants are refugees from the balkan wars. It's fitting that NukeD speaks against multicultural societies when a lot of our immigrants came to us fleeing the barbaric cleansing of their societies in the balkans. We should have just shut our borders back then and not let bosnians or croatic muslems in our country so that the different militias could kill them some more. It must feel great to live in a country homogenous country when all you had to do for it is kill/rape/threaten/rob a few of them so they leave to just anywhere that is not your place. I am never proud of being german, because i had no part in it. I just happened to be lucky to be born of german parenents. What i am proud of however, is that the society i live in and that i support by deed and by speech is trying to help those less fortunate then us.People that had to flee their countries because they feared for their life are welcome to germany and will hopefully alsways be welcome to Germany. We live with the consequences, like establising a subculture that won't immediately have a lot of common ground with the mainculture. Or having a lot of people that can't contribute to society and cost a lot of money. Or risk that amoing the millions of people we have taken in, there are some mentally sick or criminal or extremist people. Our society will hopefully understand that if this is the price for a free, liberal, diverse and colourful society, it is more then cheap. I am sad about all victims of this tragedy, but still, as a society, we have to pay that price. | ||
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sharkie
Austria18637 Posts
On July 23 2016 17:13 Broetchenholer wrote: You do realize that a big chunk of our immigrant population came here only for one reason, and that is to work. All the italians and Turks came here to work and helped us rebuild the nation after so many german were dead. Another part of our immigrants are refugees from the balkan wars. It's fitting that NukeD speaks against multicultural societies when a lot of our immigrants came to us fleeing the barbaric cleansing of their societies in the balkans. We should have just shut our borders back then and not let bosnians or croatic muslems in our country so that the different militias could kill them some more. It must feel great to live in a country homogenous country when all you had to do for it is kill/rape/threaten/rob a few of them so they leave to just anywhere that is not your place. I am never proud of being german, because i had no part in it. I just happened to be lucky to be born of german parenents. What i am proud of however, is that the society i live in and that i support by deed and by speech is trying to help those less fortunate then us.People that had to flee their countries because they feared for their life are welcome to germany and will hopefully alsways be welcome to Germany. We live with the consequences, like establising a subculture that won't immediately have a lot of common ground with the mainculture. Or having a lot of people that can't contribute to society and cost a lot of money. Or risk that amoing the millions of people we have taken in, there are some mentally sick or criminal or extremist people. Our society will hopefully understand that if this is the price for a free, liberal, diverse and colourful society, it is more then cheap. I am sad about all victims of this tragedy, but still, as a society, we have to pay that price. I actually don't know any Slavic people who are unemployed. I know tons of Turks who are employed and drive BMWs. Funny huh?  | ||
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zeo
Serbia6342 Posts
On July 23 2016 10:22 Sent. wrote: Most of the ISIS attacks weren't actually done by ISIS members but by people "inspired" by them. Its not like you need a membership card, just pledge allegiance right before you commit a crime and you are a member of ISIS. | ||
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TRAP[yoo]
Hungary6026 Posts
On July 23 2016 17:19 sharkie wrote: I actually don't know any Slavic people who are unemployed. I know tons of Turks who are employed and drive BMWs. Funny huh? thats how statistics work. gj buddy | ||
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NukeD
Croatia1612 Posts
On July 23 2016 17:13 Broetchenholer wrote: You do realize that a big chunk of our immigrant population came here only for one reason, and that is to work. All the italians and Turks came here to work and helped us rebuild the nation after so many german were dead. Another part of our immigrants are refugees from the balkan wars. It's fitting that NukeD speaks against multicultural societies when a lot of our immigrants came to us fleeing the barbaric cleansing of their societies in the balkans. We should have just shut our borders back then and not let bosnians or croatic muslems in our country so that the different militias could kill them some more. It must feel great to live in a country homogenous country when all you had to do for it is kill/rape/threaten/rob a few of them so they leave to just anywhere that is not your place. I am never proud of being german, because i had no part in it. I just happened to be lucky to be born of german parenents. What i am proud of however, is that the society i live in and that i support by deed and by speech is trying to help those less fortunate then us.People that had to flee their countries because they feared for their life are welcome to germany and will hopefully alsways be welcome to Germany. We live with the consequences, like establising a subculture that won't immediately have a lot of common ground with the mainculture. Or having a lot of people that can't contribute to society and cost a lot of money. Or risk that amoing the millions of people we have taken in, there are some mentally sick or criminal or extremist people. Our society will hopefully understand that if this is the price for a free, liberal, diverse and colourful society, it is more then cheap. I am sad about all victims of this tragedy, but still, as a society, we have to pay that price. You like to assume what the other person thinks. Im just going to reference your holyness regarding refugees. I'm very much for giving asylum to ANY refugee as long as they are really a refugee. I'd support accepting them in billions. I've also said that multiculturism isnt inherently bad. It depends on which cultures make up your "multi culture". Number one criteria is how well the foreigners asimmilate in my opinion. I think europe today is too mindless regarding who they accept. Anyway the people i am adressing this whole thread are economic immigrants, not refugees. EDIT: The last part of your post is just sad. | ||
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NukeD
Croatia1612 Posts
On July 23 2016 15:52 Surth wrote: Yes, its very possible for societies to be safe from the actions of, say, a schizophrenic (referencing not Munich here but DeepElemBlues, whom you quoted), by "abolishing multiculturalism." Do you ever read the shit the you write? I think complexity theory would seem to disagree with this. Homogeneity makes for fragility... Since all of this is just ridiculous speculation anyway (there is literally zero indication of this being islamic, while the gunman himself clearly and audibly said "Ich bin deutscher ey" in response to being called a "kanacke"), let me also ridiculously speculate. Our school system fucking sucks and breeds inequality. I think you can add this attack to the list of high school shootings in Germany instead of to the list of Islamic Attacks and you'll be closer to the truth. Gopd job for summarizing my argument into a one liner that fits your view. Unfortunatelly I also read the shit you write. | ||
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D_lux
Hungary65 Posts
Our society will hopefully understand that if this is the price for a free, liberal, diverse and colourful society, it is more then cheap. I am sad about all victims of this tragedy, but still, as a society, we have to pay that price. This last comment of yours is actually very frightening. So in essence you are willing to sacrifice innocent lives, your fellow countrymen, just so you can pound your chest and show it to everyone what a good liberal, multicultured, politically always correct guy you are? You are willing to accept that killing people is the only way your ideologies can manifest, and you are proud of it? If this is not the case please clarify! On the other hand if you are a liberal you should also accept the fact that there are other people who see things differently, and their opinions matter just as much as yours. Many people do not wish to kill their own countrymen and fellow Europeans for the sake of being liberal, diverse and multi cultured people. Justifying the killings of innocent lives because you want your ideology to happen, is not something i would like to take part in. Some people don't share your views. Thats why for example Hungary will have a vote on if they want to let in uncountable amounts of "refugees" in their country. It is a democratic process and if the majority says no, than you have to accept that, that some people are not ready to die for your ideologies. Even if you don't approve of this, you will have to accept the will of the majority (at least in Hungary) (It is also strange why no other europen country asks their citizens if they are okay with their politicians flooding their country with unregistered, unknown people). edit: i just realised that this isn't the european politico-something thread. I didn't want to derail this thread from the original Munich shootings. | ||
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Nebuchad
Switzerland12463 Posts
On July 23 2016 18:10 D_lux wrote: This last comment of yours is actually very frightening. So in essence you are willing to sacrifice innocent lives, your fellow countrymen, just so you can pound your chest and show it to everyone what a good liberal, multicultured, politically always correct guy you are? You are willing to accept that killing people is the only way your ideologies can manifest, and you are proud of it? If this is not the case please clarify! Skipping that you're not using "kill" accurately in this, this is very much a remix of the security vs liberty debate. I'd argue that literally everyone is okay with letting a few people die because of how they view a perfect society, and I think it's pretty dishonest to be appalled at the notion. There are plenty of ways you could make a population safer that you (presumably) disagree with, unless you're okay with a police state and a big brother system. | ||
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AngryMag
Germany1040 Posts
On the johnny foreigner side we have a lot of extremist muslims. Demanding seperated times for men and women in public swimming pools, prayer rooms on universities and dozens of other thing that would have been laughed out of the park by everybody 15 years ago. Today the state and society gives in, cementing lines of seperation, differences. We are putting overly religious freaks on a pedastal and we will pay the price for that in the future and the morbid side in me says we don't deserve better, that is what you get for catering for idiocy and tolerating religious zealots. Unfortunately the dudes killed ofen fall into the "normal" spectrum. A lot of more blood will flow until german and on the bigger scale western european societies will eventually wake up or not.We'll see | ||
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AngryMag
Germany1040 Posts
On July 23 2016 18:10 D_lux wrote: This last comment of yours is actually very frightening. So in essence you are willing to sacrifice innocent lives, your fellow countrymen, just so you can pound your chest and show it to everyone what a good liberal, multicultured, politically always correct guy you are? You are willing to accept that killing people is the only way your ideologies can manifest, and you are proud of it? If this is not the case please clarify! On the other hand if you are a liberal you should also accept the fact that there are other people who see things differently, and their opinions matter just as much as yours. Many people do not wish to kill their own countrymen and fellow Europeans for the sake of being liberal, diverse and multi cultured people. Justifying the killings of innocent lives because you want your ideology to happen, is not something i would like to take part in. Some people don't share your views. Thats why for example Hungary will have a vote on if they want to let in uncountable amounts of "refugees" in their country. It is a democratic process and if the majority says no, than you have to accept that, that some people are not ready to die for your ideologies. Even if you don't approve of this, you will have to accept the will of the majority (at least in Hungary) (It is also strange why no other europen country asks their citizens if they are okay with their politicians flooding their country with unregistered, unknown people). edit: i just realised that this isn't the european politico-something thread. I didn't want to derail this thread from the original Munich shootings. These people are pretty extreme themselves, tolerating other opinions isn't really their strong suit. | ||
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