|
On July 23 2016 19:36 Broetchenholer wrote:Show nested quote +On July 23 2016 19:17 AngryMag wrote:On July 23 2016 19:09 Broetchenholer wrote:On July 23 2016 18:10 D_lux wrote:Our society will hopefully understand that if this is the price for a free, liberal, diverse and colourful society, it is more then cheap. I am sad about all victims of this tragedy, but still, as a society, we have to pay that price. This last comment of yours is actually very frightening. So in essence you are willing to sacrifice innocent lives, your fellow countrymen, just so you can pound your chest and show it to everyone what a good liberal, multicultured, politically always correct guy you are? You are willing to accept that killing people is the only way your ideologies can manifest, and you are proud of it? If this is not the case please clarify! edit: i just realised that this isn't the european politico-something thread. I didn't want to derail this thread from the original Munich shootings. Uhm. no. People have claimed that a multicultural soeciety with "the wrong cultures" is the reason for this shooting. I disagree on that, but i could see a better case for it in regards to Nice or the Würzburg attack. So if we would assume that without letting people of the wrong culture into France we had avoided Nice, then i disagree on the notion that this means we should thrive to abolish that multicultural society. Because our societies have a) shown basic humanity by letting refugees in and b) profited well enough from letting economic immigrants into the country. So even if these attacks are the direct result of having our current society we shouldn't change that society because the price is fair. "Ausländer Raus(Foreigners out)" is no possibility and not accepting refugees is below us. On July 23 2016 18:10 D_lux wrote:
On the other hand if you are a liberal you should also accept the fact that there are other people who see things differently, and their opinions matter just as much as yours. Many people do not wish to kill their own countrymen and fellow Europeans for the sake of being liberal, diverse and multi cultured people. Justifying the killings of innocent lives because you want your ideology to happen, is not something i would like to take part in. Some people don't share your views. Thats why for example Hungary will have a vote on if they want to let in uncountable amounts of "refugees" in their country. It is a democratic process and if the majority says no, than you have to accept that, that some people are not ready to die for your ideologies. Even if you don't approve of this, you will have to accept the will of the majority (at least in Hungary) (It is also strange why no other europen country asks their citizens if they are okay with their politicians flooding their country with unregistered, unknown people).
You may have your opinion, i just think it's morally wrong and stupid. And i will do my best to not let it become the majority opinion of the country. If it becomes the majority opinion, then it should reflect the politics as well, because yes, that's what democracy is about. But i do hope that we are better then that. Denouncing other opinions as stupid, as below your own ideas, stating that society needs to pay the price and all that other stuff is borderline fascist rethoric. It is very funny how close you are to the people you pretend to hate so much in many positions. Sure, i am guilty of thinking that right extremist ideas are stupid and below our society.
Actually you were the only one that posted anything close to extremist ideas.
|
I would be very interested which extremist ideas we are talking about here. I myself am not calling these fine people here right wing extremists, they are just very quick in talking against immigration and for homogenic states. While in theory this is not an extremist position the people advocating steps to assure nations become or stay homogenic usually are. Because there is no way of turning Germany in a homogenic nation with only one "culture". Except if we throw everyone out that does not fit our definition of being german. But nobody here is proposing this.
Except:
On July 23 2016 08:36 NukeD wrote:Show nested quote +On July 23 2016 08:31 Nyxisto wrote:On July 23 2016 08:26 DeepElemBlues wrote:
I don't know what cynicism or realism is here but it's pretty real that Western governments in general are failing at preventing these attacks right now, it doesn't matter if it's Muslims or Nazis or schizophrenics. Governments are supposed to handle it regardless of who is doing it. The frequency of attacks is increasing and people will not put up with the current crop of politicians if this continues. This isn't the first time that people are attacking democracy in Western Europe and it isn't going to be the last time. There's only so much you can do in a liberal democracy. The reaction can't be to build a police or surveillance state or buy into the ridiculous race war rhetoric. Of course it's the government's job to protect the citizens, but it's also everybody's job (including the media) to accept the limits of how much safety is possible in a liberal society. Its actually very possible for those societies to be very safe. You'll have to abolish "multiculturism" first tho (at least to a degree).
If you just never explain what you actually mean by that, nobody can call you anything, right  Germany has about 4 million muslims (according wo wikipedia). About half of them are germans. So when people propose to get more safety by removing "multiculturism", what do they mean?
The threat from immigrant cultures in germany is too low to sacrifice our freedom (of privacy for example) or their right to live among us.
|
Well, i guess all the discussions etc about multiculturalism, ISIS, migrationpolitics etc were kinda (as was said multiple times) pointless.
He apparently adored the Winneden amok runner. What this is, is a school shooting more or less. The migration background has zero importance for this, yet page after page you have idiotic people saying mystic things like "we made this bed, now we have to sleep in it" etc - because he's iranian.
I'm the first one to criticise europes in general and germanies (or merkels) especially migration politics, if there's a reason for it. My stance to the "open arms for everyone" should be known by following the european politics thread, where i had some rather vocal arguments with people about that. This here has nothing to do with that.
So the question one should be asking, how can we stop school shooters. Or, "student-shooters", considering that he didn't go on a rampage in a school, but a McDonalds. The same discussion we had when Winneden happened. The same discussion the US had after Sandy Hooks etc.
Don't shift the blame to right or left wing agendas - this isn't a political problem, it's a problem that we've seen before and apparently didn't do enough to prevent from happening again.
|
On July 23 2016 19:08 zeo wrote:Show nested quote +On July 23 2016 18:34 Nebuchad wrote:On July 23 2016 18:10 D_lux wrote:Our society will hopefully understand that if this is the price for a free, liberal, diverse and colourful society, it is more then cheap. I am sad about all victims of this tragedy, but still, as a society, we have to pay that price. This last comment of yours is actually very frightening. So in essence you are willing to sacrifice innocent lives, your fellow countrymen, just so you can pound your chest and show it to everyone what a good liberal, multicultured, politically always correct guy you are? You are willing to accept that killing people is the only way your ideologies can manifest, and you are proud of it? If this is not the case please clarify! Skipping that you're not using "kill" accurately in this, this is very much a remix of the security vs liberty debate. I'd argue that literally everyone is okay with letting a few people die because of how they view a perfect society, and I think it's pretty dishonest to be appalled at the notion. There are plenty of ways you could make a population safer that you (presumably) disagree with, unless you're okay with a police state and a big brother system. That perfect society is pretty shitty if a group of innocent people gets murdered every week 'for the cause'.
They aren't murdered 'for the cause' though, and you're right, that would be pretty shitty.
|
On July 23 2016 20:50 Broetchenholer wrote:I would be very interested which extremist ideas we are talking about here. I myself am not calling these fine people here right wing extremists, they are just very quick in talking against immigration and for homogenic states. While in theory this is not an extremist position the people advocating steps to assure nations become or stay homogenic usually are. Because there is no way of turning Germany in a homogenic nation with only one "culture". Except if we throw everyone out that does not fit our definition of being german. But nobody here is proposing this. Except: Show nested quote +On July 23 2016 08:36 NukeD wrote:On July 23 2016 08:31 Nyxisto wrote:On July 23 2016 08:26 DeepElemBlues wrote:
I don't know what cynicism or realism is here but it's pretty real that Western governments in general are failing at preventing these attacks right now, it doesn't matter if it's Muslims or Nazis or schizophrenics. Governments are supposed to handle it regardless of who is doing it. The frequency of attacks is increasing and people will not put up with the current crop of politicians if this continues. This isn't the first time that people are attacking democracy in Western Europe and it isn't going to be the last time. There's only so much you can do in a liberal democracy. The reaction can't be to build a police or surveillance state or buy into the ridiculous race war rhetoric. Of course it's the government's job to protect the citizens, but it's also everybody's job (including the media) to accept the limits of how much safety is possible in a liberal society. Its actually very possible for those societies to be very safe. You'll have to abolish "multiculturism" first tho (at least to a degree).
Again you putting words in my mouth. I proposed that did I?
On July 23 2016 08:57 NukeD wrote:Show nested quote +On July 23 2016 08:52 Sent. wrote:On July 23 2016 08:36 NukeD wrote:On July 23 2016 08:31 Nyxisto wrote:On July 23 2016 08:26 DeepElemBlues wrote:
I don't know what cynicism or realism is here but it's pretty real that Western governments in general are failing at preventing these attacks right now, it doesn't matter if it's Muslims or Nazis or schizophrenics. Governments are supposed to handle it regardless of who is doing it. The frequency of attacks is increasing and people will not put up with the current crop of politicians if this continues. This isn't the first time that people are attacking democracy in Western Europe and it isn't going to be the last time. There's only so much you can do in a liberal democracy. The reaction can't be to build a police or surveillance state or buy into the ridiculous race war rhetoric. Of course it's the government's job to protect the citizens, but it's also everybody's job (including the media) to accept the limits of how much safety is possible in a liberal society. Its actually very possible for those societies to be very safe. You'll have to abolish "multiculturism" first tho (at least to a degree). You can't abolish multiculturalism without ethnic cleansings or mass deportations. Even if you assume multicultarism is evil, you still have to admit it's an evil lesser than these two. Yes I admit that.
I also didn't propose of removing multicuturism, I only recognized that as a part of the problem.
|
Multiculturalism is a flawed philosophical thinking defended by the likes of Charles Taylor, it is not the existence of a diversity of culture within a country, which is just a fact. A multicultural society and a multiculturalist society are two different thing : a multicultural society is just a normal society, there is no such thing as cultural homogeneity - rich and poor have different culture, generations have different cultures, etc. A multiculturalist society is a society that value that cultural diversity, and that acknowledge the diversity of custom, and even promotes it, by giving specific rights to minorities for exemple.
This is the reason why Merkel can both argue that multiculturalism has failed and accept refugees : you can accept people coming from different cultures and still stay a non-multiculturalist society, just by promoting a common culture that everybody have to accept (that generally has a body in the laws of the country) and refusing to legally acknowledge any kind of diversity (while still permitting, in the daily life, the necessary cultural diversity that permit life and change, and which exist in all society, even in Japan).
|
9 dead..
Condolences.
I wonder when the media is going to stop hyping the shit out of these events for money? They've played their part really. Sensationalizing massacres like they are. Disgusting
|
On July 23 2016 19:43 Reaps wrote:Show nested quote +On July 23 2016 19:36 Broetchenholer wrote:On July 23 2016 19:17 AngryMag wrote:On July 23 2016 19:09 Broetchenholer wrote:On July 23 2016 18:10 D_lux wrote:Our society will hopefully understand that if this is the price for a free, liberal, diverse and colourful society, it is more then cheap. I am sad about all victims of this tragedy, but still, as a society, we have to pay that price. This last comment of yours is actually very frightening. So in essence you are willing to sacrifice innocent lives, your fellow countrymen, just so you can pound your chest and show it to everyone what a good liberal, multicultured, politically always correct guy you are? You are willing to accept that killing people is the only way your ideologies can manifest, and you are proud of it? If this is not the case please clarify! edit: i just realised that this isn't the european politico-something thread. I didn't want to derail this thread from the original Munich shootings. Uhm. no. People have claimed that a multicultural soeciety with "the wrong cultures" is the reason for this shooting. I disagree on that, but i could see a better case for it in regards to Nice or the Würzburg attack. So if we would assume that without letting people of the wrong culture into France we had avoided Nice, then i disagree on the notion that this means we should thrive to abolish that multicultural society. Because our societies have a) shown basic humanity by letting refugees in and b) profited well enough from letting economic immigrants into the country. So even if these attacks are the direct result of having our current society we shouldn't change that society because the price is fair. "Ausländer Raus(Foreigners out)" is no possibility and not accepting refugees is below us. On July 23 2016 18:10 D_lux wrote:
On the other hand if you are a liberal you should also accept the fact that there are other people who see things differently, and their opinions matter just as much as yours. Many people do not wish to kill their own countrymen and fellow Europeans for the sake of being liberal, diverse and multi cultured people. Justifying the killings of innocent lives because you want your ideology to happen, is not something i would like to take part in. Some people don't share your views. Thats why for example Hungary will have a vote on if they want to let in uncountable amounts of "refugees" in their country. It is a democratic process and if the majority says no, than you have to accept that, that some people are not ready to die for your ideologies. Even if you don't approve of this, you will have to accept the will of the majority (at least in Hungary) (It is also strange why no other europen country asks their citizens if they are okay with their politicians flooding their country with unregistered, unknown people).
You may have your opinion, i just think it's morally wrong and stupid. And i will do my best to not let it become the majority opinion of the country. If it becomes the majority opinion, then it should reflect the politics as well, because yes, that's what democracy is about. But i do hope that we are better then that. Denouncing other opinions as stupid, as below your own ideas, stating that society needs to pay the price and all that other stuff is borderline fascist rethoric. It is very funny how close you are to the people you pretend to hate so much in many positions. Sure, i am guilty of thinking that right extremist ideas are stupid and below our society. Actually you were the only one that posted anything close to extremist ideas.
i guess you missed the one guy talking about ethnic cleansing. good for you!
|
On July 23 2016 20:56 m4ini wrote:
Well, i guess all the discussions etc about multiculturalism, ISIS, migrationpolitics etc were kinda (as was said multiple times) pointless.
He apparently adored the Winneden amok runner. What this is, is a school shooting more or less. The migration background has zero importance for this, yet page after page you have idiotic people saying mystic things like "we made this bed, now we have to sleep in it" etc - because he's iranian.
I'm the first one to criticise europes in general and germanies (or merkels) especially migration politics, if there's a reason for it. My stance to the "open arms for everyone" should be known by following the european politics thread, where i had some rather vocal arguments with people about that. This here has nothing to do with that.
So the question one should be asking, how can we stop school shooters. Or, "student-shooters", considering that he didn't go on a rampage in a school, but a McDonalds. The same discussion we had when Winneden happened. The same discussion the US had after Sandy Hooks etc.
Don't shift the blame to right or left wing agendas - this isn't a political problem, it's a problem that we've seen before and apparently didn't do enough to prevent from happening again.
What can we do? People keep saying 'mental health care' when incidents like these happen but we're talking about statistical outliers of 1 in many millions, where you're into deep personal factors and well past any all-encompassing government program. This guy was receiving psychiatric care in the past, but so do millions of people, and we can't expect psychiatrists to predict such outbursts with any kind of useful accuracy.
The same goes for law enforcement. Often after an attack we get reports that the perpetrator was 'on a list' (wasn't the case for this kid), but there are so many people on such lists that we'd need an immense amount of manpower to keep track of them all. Devoting a disproportionately large amount of resources for further prevention is not feasible and surveillance technology is not even close to being there yet for attacks to be almost entirely prevented with an acceptable amount of manpower. http://www.bbc.com/news/magazine-22718000
And then there's the media. Coverage for these events is often criticized and accused of causing an epidemic, a lot of these attacks are inspired by previous ones, this kid studied other mass shootings and their perpetrators. But what can you do about that? Even if we knew for certain that suppressing news about attacks would reduce them, it's not a price people are willing to pay.
|
did you guys see the hero that basically pinned the shooter down for minutes by shouting at him angrily?
"im german"
"you are are fucker you are, A FUCKER"
Also he made him talk about his motives and background.
And shortly afterwards the shooter killed himself.
|
Well i do know what we shouldn't do. (edit: @ Dan HH)
Argue multiculturalism, immigration etc. here purely because he was a brown person, which is of zero importance to this case now. One could ask the question how an 18 year old boy was able to buy a Glock 17 with 300 rounds of ammo, or why the police is unable to do the same (to arrest illegal arms dealers). Things like that.
Of course. You can't "catch em all", the sad truth is that cases like this one will always happen. You can't prevent every single insane person from going rampage. But i'm not convinced that you can't make it hard enough to prevent at least high death tolls, starting by simply going after the weapons. It won't cure the problem, but it might help.
And lets be clear: if an 18 year old internet troll on Hartz4 (welfare, so poor) can buy a lethal gun with enough ammo to potentially kill hundreds of people, the police isn't doing enough to prevent people from buying/selling guns. And this weapon had the serial number filed out, so he definitely didn't take it from his father who owned it legally.
did you guys see the hero that basically pinned the shooter down for minutes by shouting at him angrily?
Did you see the commendations we had 15 pages ago about that person?
|
no sorry, i went back a few pages but it was all about islam for some reason
|
On July 23 2016 21:28 WhiteDog wrote:
Multiculturalism is a flawed philosophical thinking defended by the likes of Charles Taylor, it is not the existence of a diversity of culture within a country, which is just a fact. A multicultural society and a multiculturalist society are two different thing : a multicultural society is just a normal society, there is no such thing as cultural homogeneity - rich and poor have different culture, generations have different cultures, etc. A multiculturalist society is a society that value that cultural diversity, and that acknowledge the diversity of custom, and even promotes it, by giving specific rights to minorities for exemple.
This is the reason why Merkel can both argue that multiculturalism has failed and accept refugees : you can accept people coming from different cultures and still stay a non-multiculturalist society, just by promoting a common culture that everybody have to accept (that generally has a body in the laws of the country) and refusing to legally acknowledge any kind of diversity (while still permitting, in the daily life, the necessary cultural diversity that permit life and change, and which exist in all society, even in Japan).
isn't it the biggest challenge though ?
|
On July 23 2016 23:51 LaNague wrote:
no sorry, i went back a few pages but it was all about islam for some reason
Yeah, i know.. Because, again, this is totally the place where islam, multiculturalism etc have to be discussed. In the wake of a school shooting/student shooter, whatever you wanna call it.
|
I just think it's great we can live in a world where an angry man can yell at an angry shooter about what a wanker he is.
|
i can't believe that in 2016 people still think you can win cultural battles by closing borders
we are citizens of earth and fearing people who think and act differently will never ever save us from any kind of horror
|
What a time we are living in, huh?
I, a brazilian, used to witness tv news every single day, 24/7, talking about local murdering, robbery, assaults, rape and all that there is bad in society, am actually afraid to fly to Europe and USA...
The things that are happening over there are so fucking random that it actually looks more scary than the dangers we endure in Brazil.
These lone wolfs appear out of the blue, the common citizen cannot predict anything, cannot know if he is under danger or not, and it really feels scary...
|
Nah I'm still pretty sure people should be scared of Brazil.
+ Show Spoiler +Murder rate![[image loading]](http://puu.sh/qbH3y/c06cf38240.png) And just so I don't bother someones OCD the top 10 ![[image loading]](http://puu.sh/qbH9E/86cf99ec22.png)
|
Its no wonder people get dangerously obsessed with mass killings when we have 24/7 mass media and social media coverage with brutally violent images of real murder on twitter feeds etc.
Saturation coverage of mass murder and terrorism has to stop.
|
On July 24 2016 00:07 fabiano wrote:
What a time we are living in, huh?
I, a brazilian, used to witness tv news every single day, 24/7, talking about local murdering, robbery, assaults, rape and all that there is bad in society, am actually afraid to fly to Europe and USA...
The things that are happening over there are so fucking random that it actually looks more scary than the dangers we endure in Brazil.
These lone wolfs appear out of the blue, the common citizen cannot predict anything, cannot know if he is under danger or not, and it really feels scary...
I get what you're saying but there's much more common death causes that you can't predict or do anything against. You can respect every possible driving rule and you're still so much more likely to die in a car accident than in a random shooting. But this doesn't make you afraid of driving.
|
|
|
|
|
|
EPT
