|
On July 24 2016 06:23 Jockmcplop wrote:
Maybe its because the solutions are boring and involve spending large amounts of money on stuff like good free mental health.
Study everything about it, see what can be improved and what can't be. Society does have to accept that without some advanced genetic modification and a greater understanding of the human body and mind that we probably can't solve this issue. It's a rare occurrence at the very least.
First and foremost, the blame goes squarely on the attacker. He held the gun, he pulled the trigger.
Now, beyond that the contributing factors at play:
Look at the parents, were they doing all they could? - Seeing as the parents had already cared enough to get him mental health treatment, we can possibly strike them off the list.
Look at the school, did they see something wrong but choose not to intervene? - In this event he's been bullied and we may not know to what extent or get an accurate picture. In this case, maybe we should look at the parents of the bullies who had no clue this was happening. (Tbh, it's hard for a parent to know if their kid is acting like a jackass at or outside of school if there's no evidence if they're all plucky when they get home).
Look at his life / habits etc.
In this case, he was already receiving treatment for mental health issues and depression. Now, we don't know the extent of the bullying and what went on, whether it was physical & verbal abuse etc. Considering it was prolonged over years it's clearly a contributing factor to his decision. +1 to Surth. However: it's not an excuse to murder people, and I hardly see him as a victim of German oppression. We don't know if they wounded his pride, or broke his fingers and put his head in a toilet like gangsters. Did they make fun of that sad excuse of a mustache on his face? Or did they go to greater lengths.
Your jump to free government mental health care sounds extremely expensive. We have so many social programs already that it's rather burdensome don't you think? Especially since he was already getting mental health care. Once a social program is implemented it's not likely to go away either.
Also, considering the large # of terrorist attacks that have happened, and that the media has created false narratives before it's very reasonable for people to be skeptical.
Self hating gay in Orlando - 100% wrong
Workplace violence in Chattanooga - 100% wrong
Three white males shooting up a place, then turned into more workplace violence in San Bernardino - 100% wrong
|
I agree with all of that. Free mental health care was just an example of what could be done (you're right it would be expensive but it fits with my ideology because I'm a total socialist haha). Like you say, its important to look at all of the variables and at least make an attempt to make inroads into the problem wherever its possible.
I do think the education system needs to place more of an emphasis on mental health. There's so much information around today on social media, so much media saturation of traumatic and violent events, has anyone thought to teach very young pupils the importance of perspective when it comes to this stuff? Is that the parents' responsibility or should the education step in?
If he was receiving mental health care for depression its important to study his case, compare it with others and look for signs which can then be used to improve early warnings of stuff like this.
This might already be in place. The problem is, it rarely gets into the news because it doesn't really fit into the overarching 'us vs them' narrative that wins so many sales/ratings/clicks. Its more us vs us.
I think for me its just so frustrating to see the same old left/right/muslim/white/brown debate ending in zero action or conclusions every time there's a mass murder. This kind of conversation is much more interesting.
|
On July 24 2016 06:51 Jockmcplop wrote:
I agree with all of that. Free mental health care was just an example of what could be done (you're right it would be expensive but it fits with my ideology because I'm a total socialist haha). Like you say, its important to look at all of the variables and at least make an attempt to make inroads into the problem wherever its possible.
I do think the education system needs to place more of an emphasis on mental health. There's so much information around today on social media, so much media saturation of traumatic and violent events, has anyone thought to teach very young pupils the importance of perspective when it comes to this stuff? Is that the parents' responsibility or should the education step in?
If he was receiving mental health care for depression its important to study his case, compare it with others and look for signs which can then be used to improve early warnings of stuff like this.
This might already be in place. The problem is, it rarely gets into the news because it doesn't really fit into the overarching 'us vs them' narrative that wins so many sales/ratings/clicks. Its more us vs us.
I think for me its just so frustrating to see the same old left/right/muslim/white/brown debate ending in zero action or conclusions every time there's a mass murder. This kind of conversation is much more interesting.
Education is the basis of a healthy society, and you can't trust parents that much (too much variability between different parents). School needs to come in on these subjects, but that'd mean governments would have to redesign the education systems, which seems unlikely.
|
On July 24 2016 06:58 OtherWorld wrote:Show nested quote +On July 24 2016 06:51 Jockmcplop wrote:
I agree with all of that. Free mental health care was just an example of what could be done (you're right it would be expensive but it fits with my ideology because I'm a total socialist haha). Like you say, its important to look at all of the variables and at least make an attempt to make inroads into the problem wherever its possible.
I do think the education system needs to place more of an emphasis on mental health. There's so much information around today on social media, so much media saturation of traumatic and violent events, has anyone thought to teach very young pupils the importance of perspective when it comes to this stuff? Is that the parents' responsibility or should the education step in?
If he was receiving mental health care for depression its important to study his case, compare it with others and look for signs which can then be used to improve early warnings of stuff like this.
This might already be in place. The problem is, it rarely gets into the news because it doesn't really fit into the overarching 'us vs them' narrative that wins so many sales/ratings/clicks. Its more us vs us.
I think for me its just so frustrating to see the same old left/right/muslim/white/brown debate ending in zero action or conclusions every time there's a mass murder. This kind of conversation is much more interesting. Education is the basis of a healthy society, and you can't trust parents that much (too much variability between different parents). School needs to come in on these subjects, but that'd mean governments would have to redesign the education systems, which seems unlikely.
Well I would suggest starting sooner than later. These events are picking up pace, probably in no small part due to 24 hour news coverage, social media coverage with violent, traumatic images etc.
These solutions are very long term oriented. Governments won't want to put things in place that won't win them any votes for 10 years. Its one of the drawbacks of democracy I suppose.
|
On July 24 2016 06:23 Jockmcplop wrote:
I find it strange how when there's an ideology driven terrorist attack everyone seems to know what to do, but when there's a mental health driven mass killing everyone just says "Oh well the guy went nuts what can you do?"
There's actually answers to this stuff but people don't seem to want to engage about it.
Maybe its because the solutions are boring and involve spending large amounts of money on stuff like good free mental healthcare, compulsory mental health education for very young pupils. That and the solutions don't seem to win votes or grab headlines.
These killers come from our culture and our society, isn't it just as important to look at what we're doing wrong as it is to look at other groups in the case of terrorist attacks?
Quality health/mental care available for free isn't sexy. The stigma of mental health needs to change has well but that's not sexy. As long as there is a social stigma of going to therapy or mental illness of shame and disgust people will refuse to go. People that need help dealing with problems that are no fault of their own will never get that help. If you break your leg or get an ear infection and go to the doctor no one cares, there's no stigma, you're going to the doctor to fix your ailment. If you've got depression, an illness all the same, you're often looked down on. If people find out they might see or treat you different so you don't seek treatment, or you don't tell a friend who maybe has walked that same road that could help you. Maybe you don't know what you have, you can't put your finger on the problem but you're sure as fuck not going to be labeled a "crazy person" so you never go. The social stigma of mental health is an absolutely devastating problem that no one ever talks about.
The media blasting an attacker's name and image everywhere is a huge problem as well. If you're going to go out you could shoot yourself in the bedroom or you could hang yourself in the kitchen, sure. OR you could stir shit up, make a point, take a stand at your perceived problem du jour, and become renown for it. Why go out a solitary "loser" when you could be infamous? The media will help make you something in death you could never be in life! So long as we continue to give these people the attention they want these things will keep happening. It is a self fulfilling prophecy. But, again, this isn't sexy and this doesn't make media money.
You'll never stop everything unfortunately. Even if you had the absolutely best mental health care for free, if there was no social stigma, if killing a bunch of people would make the news ignore you some would still slip through the cracks. But we could be taking some steps to curb it and we don't. I hope one day it'll change but I'm not holding my breath.
|
On July 24 2016 07:05 OuchyDathurts wrote:Show nested quote +On July 24 2016 06:23 Jockmcplop wrote:
I find it strange how when there's an ideology driven terrorist attack everyone seems to know what to do, but when there's a mental health driven mass killing everyone just says "Oh well the guy went nuts what can you do?"
There's actually answers to this stuff but people don't seem to want to engage about it.
Maybe its because the solutions are boring and involve spending large amounts of money on stuff like good free mental healthcare, compulsory mental health education for very young pupils. That and the solutions don't seem to win votes or grab headlines.
These killers come from our culture and our society, isn't it just as important to look at what we're doing wrong as it is to look at other groups in the case of terrorist attacks? The media blasting an attacker's name and image everywhere is a huge problem as well. If you're going to go out you could shoot yourself in the bedroom or you could hang yourself in the kitchen, sure. OR you could stir shit up, make a point, take a stand at your perceived problem du jour, and become renown for it. Why go out a solitary "loser" when you could be infamous? The media will help make you something in death you could never be in life! So long as we continue to give these people the attention they want these things will keep happening. It is a self fulfilling prophecy. But, again, this isn't sexy and this doesn't make media money.
This is hugely important and gets ignored way too much.
Look at the main headline on the Guardian's front page right now.
"Munich killer was bullied teenage loner"
What does that say to us? Is it responsible?
More to the point what does it say to other bullied teenage loners (probably at least 10% of teenagers feel like bullied loners).
Here's a relevant article:
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/people/profiles/dr-park-dietz-dangerous-minds-412116.html
He takes an equally severe attitude to news shows. Twice, he appeared on CNN in the middle of a sensational murder case and warned the network that if it didn't tone down their coverage it would lead to further crimes. On another occasion, he told a production team from 20/20, a magazine show on ABC, that he would not participate in a programme reconstructing a workplace shooting because he feared their approach would encourage copycats. The programme went out on a Friday; by the following Tuesday there had been two fresh mass murders in other parts of the United States.
|
Free mental healtcare is good but you need to remember that crazy people often don't want to be helped. Sometimes it's understandable because no one wants to admit that he's crazy. Maybe some mandatory mental health examinations could help with that but I wouldn't like such solution. Proper gun control is easier and less "invasive" to personal life. Yeah I know, you can still kill multiple people without using guns but it's much harder.
|
I agree about gun control. The idea, though, is to attack the problem from multiple angles. Why not educate people better about mental health practices, employ fit-for-purpose gun control, ask the media to calm down their reporting all at the same time? You might find out that you are creating a better society as well as cutting down the risk of these events.
The only problem is money I suppose and I am being very idealistic (you could say naive) about it. As I said before expensive long term solutions very rarely happen because of the lack of political gain for those putting them in place.
One more point on mental health. Its not about helping crazy people. that idea is part of the stigma. Mental health is like physical health, it requires maintenance, and that is something you can teach kids quite easily.
Stress reducing breathing exercises permanently reduce the amount of adrenaline in your system if employed regularly (this is fairly basic biology).
Spending more time in a natural environment, even if its going for a walk in the park once a day, significantly reduces the risk of mental health problems such as depression.
Exposure to traumatic news events has a link with mental health problems (causality has not been proven here yet - A link has been made in studies though).
|
On July 24 2016 07:14 Sent. wrote:
Free mental healtcare is good but you need to remember that crazy people often don't want to be helped. Sometimes it's understandable because no one wants to admit that he's crazy. Maybe some mandatory mental health examinations could help with that but I wouldn't like such solution. Proper gun control is easier and less "invasive" to personal life. Yeah I know, you can still kill multiple people without using guns but it's much harder.
The societal stigma around mental illness all but ensures that the people who need the help the most will never seek it. As long as we see people as "crazy" for having an illness we're only making this worse. A person doesn't choose to have cancer or lupus. No one holds it against someone or sees it as a character flaw. By that exact same token no one chooses to have a disease or illness of the brain but people will hold those things against someone. Make fun of them and see them as flaws. Things they'd never ever dream of doing to someone with cancer. We're only making things worse by never addressing this as a society.
|
Just learned what happened. Hope everyone have their family and friends safe.
Just read half of the thread. The amount of stupidity is atrocious.
|
On July 24 2016 07:21 Jockmcplop wrote:
ask the media to calm down their reporting all at the same time?
This won't happen for a very long time until more people get angry with the media. Even that won't stop it because I've noticed more often people are actually getting more tired of all the race-baiting articles. A lot of the time they still eat it right up though. It would need direct repercussions to the people who work at the news organizations themselves. But until then, no business hurts their profits intentionally. So in the mean time we'll just have to learn why an Indian woman hates it when white women learn belly dancing like those cultural appropriating sluts that they are!
I can go onto facebook right now and just skim for 10 minutes on leftist news organizations and find 30 race baiting articles at least in that time frame. Hell, if you read black news you'll see nothing but racial articles. A lot of it is pandering and empowerment articles, empowerment is a nice idea but it's also a constant reminder of injustices that didn't even happen to some of them on a personal level. So it's always playing that over and over in peoples minds.
Media isn't going to stop the amazing business model of inciting hatred & then being the first to report it when that hatred plays out any time soon. There's still a large market for it. =]
I think a good thing to teach the next generation is, "Twitter or whatever has replaced it by then is garbage. The media is really full of shit, don't get caught up in other peoples hatred on facebook and the internet. Go outside and get some sunshine once in a while to get away from that nonsense and clear your head."
And just for fairness, yes if I go to breitbart or thedailymail I'll see, "fuckin Migrants!!!" all the time. ;p
|
On July 24 2016 08:13 SK.Testie wrote:Show nested quote +On July 24 2016 07:21 Jockmcplop wrote:
ask the media to calm down their reporting all at the same time? This won't happen for a very long time until more people get angry with the media. Even that won't stop it because I've noticed more often people are actually getting more tired of all the race-baiting articles. A lot of the time they still eat it right up though. It would need direct repercussions to the people who work at the news organizations themselves. But until then, no business hurts their profits intentionally. So in the mean time we'll just have to learn why an Indian woman hates it when white women learn belly dancing like those cultural appropriating sluts that they are! I can go onto facebook right now and just skim for 10 minutes on leftist news organizations and find 30 race baiting articles at least in that time frame. Hell, if you read black news you'll see nothing but racial articles. A lot of it is pandering and empowerment articles, empowerment is a nice idea but it's also a constant reminder of injustices that didn't even happen to some of them on a personal level. So it's always playing that over and over in peoples minds. Media isn't going to stop the amazing business model of inciting hatred & then being the first to report it when that hatred plays out any time soon. There's still a large market for it. =] I think a good thing to teach the next generation is, "Twitter or whatever has replaced it by then is garbage. The media is really full of shit, don't get caught up in other peoples hatred on facebook and the internet. Go outside and get some sunshine once in a while to get away from that nonsense and clear your head." And just for fairness, yes if I go to breitbart or thedailymail I'll see, "fuckin Migrants!!!" all the time. ;p
the problem is that it's really a lose-lose situation.
You either keep it low-profile and get yelled at for being media who's being PC, trying to keep something under the rug when really you think the populace needs to be made fully aware of the horrors these incidents bring. They need to see those gruesome images is something you argued just (around) last week.
If you DO report on it in all detail you get yelled at for basicly shouting out to everyone "you too can become famous if you pick up a gun and shoot up lots of people!".
This wasn't some terrorist attack or an attack fueled by hate against a particular group of people if what the police said is correct and he was just "fascinated" by Breivik etc. And really, if you want to argue that it was it's probably not something you'll like because the only thing you could potentially speculate about so far is that he might have been influenced by the growing anti-immigrant sentiment with the immigrant slurs etc.
I at least don't think there was anything done horribly wrong by mainstream media in this case aside from publishing photos/videos they should not have published
|
On July 24 2016 08:58 Toadesstern wrote:
I at least don't think there was anything done horribly wrong by mainstream media in this case aside from publishing photos/videos they should not have published
I disagree with this. Its not only the way it is reported. "Munich killer was a bullied loner" is not helpful - it encourages lonely bullied teenagers to identify with the killer. It is also the sheer volume (this is the biggest problem) and the length of time that the news runs for on this kind of thing.
It is also the contagion effect. This is a recognized effect where killings go on to inspire other killings. I would wager that this played some part in the cause of this particular event. Saturated 24 hour news and social coverage of traumatic mass murders has been going on now for weeks.
Its not an easy problem to solve, as you say its a lose-lose for the media, but there are some methods they could employ to at least make the slightest effort not to encourage further crimes. There has been intense study of this subject and the results are all too often the same. Media-hyped mass murders are always followed very closely by more mass murders. They tend to happen in 'patches' due to the sheer level of hype.
Here's a study into the contagion effect:
http://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0117259
Abstract:
+ Show Spoiler +Abstract
Background
Several past studies have found that media reports of suicides and homicides appear to subsequently increase the incidence of similar events in the community, apparently due to the coverage planting the seeds of ideation in at-risk individuals to commit similar acts.
Methods
Here we explore whether or not contagion is evident in more high-profile incidents, such as school shootings and mass killings (incidents with four or more people killed). We fit a contagion model to recent data sets related to such incidents in the US, with terms that take into account the fact that a school shooting or mass murder may temporarily increase the probability of a similar event in the immediate future, by assuming an exponential decay in contagiousness after an event.
Conclusions
We find significant evidence that mass killings involving firearms are incented by similar events in the immediate past. On average, this temporary increase in probability lasts 13 days, and each incident incites at least 0.30 new incidents (p = 0.0015). We also find significant evidence of contagion in school shootings, for which an incident is contagious for an average of 13 days, and incites an average of at least 0.22 new incidents (p = 0.0001). All p-values are assessed based on a likelihood ratio test comparing the likelihood of a contagion model to that of a null model with no contagion. On average, mass killings involving firearms occur approximately every two weeks in the US, while school shootings occur on average monthly. We find that state prevalence of firearm ownership is significantly associated with the state incidence of mass killings with firearms, school shootings, and mass shootings.
Earlier on I posted an article about the work of a forensic scientist who constantly finds himself going live on CNN and such news channels asking them to tone down their coverage or to expect more mass killings.
Its not just a case of blaming the media. These studies have to be publicised, people have to educated about the effect constant exposure to traumatic news has on them, kids need to be told to get off social media etc.
The effect is there, though, and it is proven.
|
Not sure if it was posted, the angry balcony guy was interviewed.
Keyfacts: he's an excavator operator (i'm not sure if non-germans grasp how funny it is, considering that there's a stereotype for these), 57 years old, was just having his good evening beer after work on the balcony when he saw that "Vollpfosten" (dumbass, but funnier). "I even threw my beerbottle at him, but it fell short - there, you can see the shards still.".
I mean.. It takes balls to throw your beer at someone with a gun, while furiously insulting him. And, as a german, that he's a Baggerfahrer (excavatordriver), makes it even funnier.
|
On July 24 2016 08:58 Toadesstern wrote:
They need to see those gruesome images is something you argued just (around) last week.
Which is why I said race baiting articles that incite hatred that come from mostly leftist news organizations that pretend to care about peoples issues. I can find a literal shit tonne of these in a very short amount of time. This one's rather tepid even though it's blatant racism from the writer.
Why I can't stand white belly dancers... those culture appropriating sluts!
I don't think showing the graphic nature of wars or violence is a deterrent and it's something people should be able to see if they so choose.
|
On July 24 2016 09:36 SK.Testie wrote:Show nested quote +On July 24 2016 08:58 Toadesstern wrote:
They need to see those gruesome images is something you argued just (around) last week.
Which is why I said race baiting articles that incite hatred that come from mostly leftist news organizations that pretend to care about peoples issues. I can find a literal shit tonne of these in a very short amount of time. This one's rather tepid even though it's blatant racism from the writer. Why I can't stand white belly dancers... those culture appropriating sluts!I don't think showing the graphic nature of wars or violence is a deterrent and it's something people should be able to see if they so choose.
how are race baiting articles relevant to this incident here though?
|
It was a commentary on him asking for the media to calm down. It was to emphasize the point that they don't care when shit goes south. They really, really don't.
|
On July 24 2016 09:46 Toadesstern wrote:Show nested quote +On July 24 2016 09:36 SK.Testie wrote:On July 24 2016 08:58 Toadesstern wrote:
They need to see those gruesome images is something you argued just (around) last week.
Which is why I said race baiting articles that incite hatred that come from mostly leftist news organizations that pretend to care about peoples issues. I can find a literal shit tonne of these in a very short amount of time. This one's rather tepid even though it's blatant racism from the writer. Why I can't stand white belly dancers... those culture appropriating sluts!I don't think showing the graphic nature of wars or violence is a deterrent and it's something people should be able to see if they so choose. how are race baiting articles relevant to this incident here though?
They aren't. Testie just lives to race bait. He only really posts here when there is a terrorist attack that might have been committed by a Muslim. He never missed a chance to stoke the culture war.
|
Its both sides though, just making that post Plansix is taking the bait. Everyone focuses on the stuff we disagree about right wing vs left wing everywhere on every political thread and in political institutions, public debate etc. and everyone seems to forget to actually DO the stuff that we all agree would work or help.
|
Zurich15352 Posts
On July 24 2016 09:15 m4ini wrote:
Not sure if it was posted, the angry balcony guy was interviewed.
Keyfacts: he's an excavator operator (i'm not sure if non-germans grasp how funny it is, considering that there's a stereotype for these), 57 years old, was just having his good evening beer after work on the balcony when he saw that "Vollpfosten" (dumbass, but funnier). "I even threw my beerbottle at him, but it fell short - there, you can see the shards still.".
I mean.. It takes balls to throw your beer at someone with a gun, while furiously insulting him. And, as a german, that he's a Baggerfahrer (excavatordriver), makes it even funnier.
You can't make that stuff up.
I mean the whole event is tragic of course but you just can't deny the comedy of that one encounter.
|
|
|
|
|
|
EPT
