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On July 23 2016 08:52 zatic wrote:Show nested quote +On July 23 2016 08:49 NukeD wrote:On July 23 2016 08:26 DeepElemBlues wrote:
I don't know what cynicism or realism is here but it's pretty real that Western governments in general are failing at preventing these attacks right now, it doesn't matter if it's Muslims or Nazis or schizophrenics. Governments are supposed to handle it regardless of who is doing it. The frequency of attacks is increasing and people will not put up with the current crop of politicians if this continues. If there is a sudden epidemic of these attack than any reasonable person would ask themself what is the cause of the epidemic. And i think that we can all agree that there is a disproportionate number of these attacks in the past few years compared to before. Sure, you can view all of these attacks as isolated cases and make yourself blind to the big picture however that does not change the fact that Europe is facing a serious threat posed by people (sane/insane) radicalized by islamic values. Bringing them in by millions alsd didnt't help the problem. What the hell are you talking about. At this point there is really zero.zero evidence this was in any way an attack by islamic radicals. If anything, and even that is pure speculation, it would appear this was done by a deranged follower of Breivik.
It was likely a deranged man. Given the video evidence we've seen most people seem to think so as well. In the case of Breivik he seemed to be pretty anti-multiculturalism. So you could still attribute his attack under the umbrella of rejecting the leftist viewpoint. So his statement is not exactly wrong. That is still an effect of multiculturalism technically.
On July 23 2016 08:52 PhoenixVoid wrote:
I'd say my country is quite multicultural, especially in the high density cities, but I can't recall Canada having news of terrorist attacks or major threats since like the attempted bombing of the CN Tower. Of course my country has the luck of being isolated from the refugee crisis and can afford to be a lot more selective and screen for threats, but I think it's also done a good job of integrating them into a national identity as well. Multiculturalism doesn't have to be a failure, but the way Europe conducts it clearly has mistakes or flaws which need to be answered.
Canada has had a pretty rigid immigration process.
And even then we've had more terrorist attacks or attempts than we should have had. The Toronto 18 for instance. 18 guys who wanted to cause major damage. Then the recruitment center, parliament hill attacker, & other solo attackers. I believe there's been a couple in Montreal as well as the men who wanted to cause massive damage in Toronto by derailing the trains. This is all fairly recent.
Not to mention the fact that we haven't really made it work seeing as people still section themselves off to their own areas for the most part. A few streets above me is almost strictly Asian where the signs are in Chinese/English. A few streets below me it's more brown/black and there's more check cashing places & violence. Though violence seems to be somewhat evenly spaced in the GTA with downtown being the highest due to high concentrations of people and Markham being the lowest because Asian.
Canada makes it work better than other countries perhaps and there's not a lot of overt discrimination. Most people really don't care and they get along great. But again, we had our pick of the litter of immigrants and still have problems.
The fact that we have to hide our crime numbers by race is kind of shameful though. Because we have the same criminal patterns that the USA has.
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On July 23 2016 08:52 Sent. wrote:Show nested quote +On July 23 2016 08:36 NukeD wrote:On July 23 2016 08:31 Nyxisto wrote:On July 23 2016 08:26 DeepElemBlues wrote:
I don't know what cynicism or realism is here but it's pretty real that Western governments in general are failing at preventing these attacks right now, it doesn't matter if it's Muslims or Nazis or schizophrenics. Governments are supposed to handle it regardless of who is doing it. The frequency of attacks is increasing and people will not put up with the current crop of politicians if this continues. This isn't the first time that people are attacking democracy in Western Europe and it isn't going to be the last time. There's only so much you can do in a liberal democracy. The reaction can't be to build a police or surveillance state or buy into the ridiculous race war rhetoric. Of course it's the government's job to protect the citizens, but it's also everybody's job (including the media) to accept the limits of how much safety is possible in a liberal society. Its actually very possible for those societies to be very safe. You'll have to abolish "multiculturism" first tho (at least to a degree). You can't abolish multiculturalism without ethnic cleansings or mass deportations. Even if you assume multicultarism is evil, you still have to admit it's an evil lesser than these two.
It's not though (edit: evil, to clarify).
Germany as we know it today was built by a multicultural population. Google "Guest workers", or the german word "Gastarbeiter".
Multiculturalism isn't inherently bad.
It was likely a deranged man. Given the video evidence we've seen most people seem to think so as well. In the case of Breivik he seemed to be pretty anti-multiculturalism. So you could still attribute his attack under the umbrella of rejecting the leftist viewpoint. So his statement is not exactly wrong. That is still an effect of multiculturalism technically.
That's the dumbest disguise i've ever seen for blatant xenophobia.
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On July 23 2016 08:52 Sent. wrote:Show nested quote +On July 23 2016 08:36 NukeD wrote:On July 23 2016 08:31 Nyxisto wrote:On July 23 2016 08:26 DeepElemBlues wrote:
I don't know what cynicism or realism is here but it's pretty real that Western governments in general are failing at preventing these attacks right now, it doesn't matter if it's Muslims or Nazis or schizophrenics. Governments are supposed to handle it regardless of who is doing it. The frequency of attacks is increasing and people will not put up with the current crop of politicians if this continues. This isn't the first time that people are attacking democracy in Western Europe and it isn't going to be the last time. There's only so much you can do in a liberal democracy. The reaction can't be to build a police or surveillance state or buy into the ridiculous race war rhetoric. Of course it's the government's job to protect the citizens, but it's also everybody's job (including the media) to accept the limits of how much safety is possible in a liberal society. Its actually very possible for those societies to be very safe. You'll have to abolish "multiculturism" first tho (at least to a degree). You can't abolish multiculturalism without ethnic cleansings or mass deportations. Even if you assume multicultarism is evil, you still have to admit it's an evil lesser than these two.
Yes I admit that.
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Violence happened someplace in the EU, clearly the boogieman known as Multiculturalism must be to blame. We must find how Multiculturalism is the cause and then, most importantly, blame the left and Muslims.
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On July 23 2016 08:31 Nyxisto wrote:Show nested quote +On July 23 2016 08:26 DeepElemBlues wrote:
I don't know what cynicism or realism is here but it's pretty real that Western governments in general are failing at preventing these attacks right now, it doesn't matter if it's Muslims or Nazis or schizophrenics. Governments are supposed to handle it regardless of who is doing it. The frequency of attacks is increasing and people will not put up with the current crop of politicians if this continues. This isn't the first time that people are attacking democracy in Western Europe and it isn't going to be the last time. There's only so much you can do in a liberal democracy. The reaction can't be to build a police or surveillance state or buy into the ridiculous race war rhetoric. Of course it's the government's job to protect the citizens, but it's also everybody's job (including the media) to accept the limits of how much safety is possible in a liberal society.
I can't accept this pityful discourse that basically consider us to be impotent before all this. It's incredibly irresponsible to argue this way, like this damn wretched Cohn-Bendit. I consider this kind of argument to be one of the few things that can effectively push the people of europe toward a less democratic society.
There are clear things that we must and can do to prevent those attacks, like more control on borders in regards to guns for exemple or heavier scrutiny on the identity of migrants.
We cannot accept that a belgium citizen, like Abaaoud, makes multiples trip from europe to syria, collect dickheads throughout europe, and plan an attack in the french soil like it's no big deal.
On July 23 2016 08:59 Plansix wrote:
Violence happened someplace in the EU, clearly the boogieman known as Multiculturalism must be to blame. We must find how Multiculturalism is the cause and then, most importantly, blame the left and Muslims.
You can't fucking play the victim card everytime. Muslims have to stop whining and do something, and the left need to stop giving excuses and start proposing solutions. Terror attacks can't keep on at this pace for much more or the people will find a solution by themselves, and it won't be tolerant nor peaceful.
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can't find a link to the press conference on munichs police twitter so far but BBC says they're streaming it as well over here:
http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-36872528
which basicly just runs "comming up soon: press conference" atm, but you can keep it runnin instead of f5'ing some other source
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On July 23 2016 09:00 WhiteDog wrote:Show nested quote +On July 23 2016 08:31 Nyxisto wrote:On July 23 2016 08:26 DeepElemBlues wrote:
I don't know what cynicism or realism is here but it's pretty real that Western governments in general are failing at preventing these attacks right now, it doesn't matter if it's Muslims or Nazis or schizophrenics. Governments are supposed to handle it regardless of who is doing it. The frequency of attacks is increasing and people will not put up with the current crop of politicians if this continues. This isn't the first time that people are attacking democracy in Western Europe and it isn't going to be the last time. There's only so much you can do in a liberal democracy. The reaction can't be to build a police or surveillance state or buy into the ridiculous race war rhetoric. Of course it's the government's job to protect the citizens, but it's also everybody's job (including the media) to accept the limits of how much safety is possible in a liberal society. I can't accept this pityful discourse that basically consider us to be impotent before all this. It's incredibly irresponsible to argue this way, like this damn wretched Cohn-Bendit. I consider this kind of argument to be one of the few things that can effectively push the people of europe toward a less democratic society. There are clear things that we must and can do to prevent those attacks, like more control on borders in regards to guns for exemple or heavier scrutiny on the identity of migrants. We cannot accept that a belgium citizen, like Abaaoud, makes multiples trip from europe to syria, collect dickheads throughout europe, and plan an attack in the french soil like it's no big deal.
While i don't necessarily disagree (i don't at all) - how does this relate to this attack now? You'll always have illegal weapons. People act like there never were any. Even Australia has it, and they have some of the best border security in the world.
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On July 23 2016 09:00 WhiteDog wrote:Show nested quote +On July 23 2016 08:31 Nyxisto wrote:On July 23 2016 08:26 DeepElemBlues wrote:
I don't know what cynicism or realism is here but it's pretty real that Western governments in general are failing at preventing these attacks right now, it doesn't matter if it's Muslims or Nazis or schizophrenics. Governments are supposed to handle it regardless of who is doing it. The frequency of attacks is increasing and people will not put up with the current crop of politicians if this continues. This isn't the first time that people are attacking democracy in Western Europe and it isn't going to be the last time. There's only so much you can do in a liberal democracy. The reaction can't be to build a police or surveillance state or buy into the ridiculous race war rhetoric. Of course it's the government's job to protect the citizens, but it's also everybody's job (including the media) to accept the limits of how much safety is possible in a liberal society. I can't accept this pityful discourse that basically consider us to be impotent before all this. It's incredibly irresponsible to argue this way, like this damn wretched Cohn-Bendit. I consider this kind of argument to be one of the few things that can effectively push the people of europe toward a less democratic society. There are clear things that we must and can do to prevent those attacks, like more control on borders in regards to guns for exemple or heavier scrutiny on the identity of migrants. We cannot accept that a belgium citizen, like Abaaoud, makes multiples trip from europe to syria, collect dickheads throughout europe, and plan an attack in the french soil like it's no big deal.
I personally agree with your views. We can always do more and be better. But the West as whole needs to avoid over correcting like the US did after 9/11.
Edit: Plz whitedog. There is a difference between talking like rational people and just throwing out blame based on rhetoric. Multiculturalism is a vague, useless term that people thrown around when they are worried they will sound xenophobic.
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On July 23 2016 08:59 Plansix wrote:
Violence happened someplace in the EU, clearly the boogieman known as Multiculturalism must be to blame. We must find how Multiculturalism is the cause and then, most importantly, blame the left and Muslims.
Thats just my viewpoint. You are more than welcome to present your cause of the problem. However, once again, im not taking anymore of this isolated case bullshit.
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On July 23 2016 08:55 SK.Testie wrote:Show nested quote +On July 23 2016 08:52 zatic wrote:On July 23 2016 08:49 NukeD wrote:On July 23 2016 08:26 DeepElemBlues wrote:
I don't know what cynicism or realism is here but it's pretty real that Western governments in general are failing at preventing these attacks right now, it doesn't matter if it's Muslims or Nazis or schizophrenics. Governments are supposed to handle it regardless of who is doing it. The frequency of attacks is increasing and people will not put up with the current crop of politicians if this continues. If there is a sudden epidemic of these attack than any reasonable person would ask themself what is the cause of the epidemic. And i think that we can all agree that there is a disproportionate number of these attacks in the past few years compared to before. Sure, you can view all of these attacks as isolated cases and make yourself blind to the big picture however that does not change the fact that Europe is facing a serious threat posed by people (sane/insane) radicalized by islamic values. Bringing them in by millions alsd didnt't help the problem. What the hell are you talking about. At this point there is really zero.zero evidence this was in any way an attack by islamic radicals. If anything, and even that is pure speculation, it would appear this was done by a deranged follower of Breivik. It was likely a deranged man. Given the video evidence we've seen most people seem to think so as well. In the case of Breivik he seemed to be pretty anti-multiculturalism. So you could still attribute his attack under the umbrella of rejecting the leftist viewpoint. So his statement is not exactly wrong. That is still an effect of multiculturalism technically.
yes, and if a rightwing guy shoots up an abortion clinic that also amounts to the 80% of Democrats being responsible for shootings because it was clearly in response to the left!
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Zurich15365 Posts
On July 23 2016 09:00 WhiteDog wrote:Show nested quote +On July 23 2016 08:31 Nyxisto wrote:On July 23 2016 08:26 DeepElemBlues wrote:
I don't know what cynicism or realism is here but it's pretty real that Western governments in general are failing at preventing these attacks right now, it doesn't matter if it's Muslims or Nazis or schizophrenics. Governments are supposed to handle it regardless of who is doing it. The frequency of attacks is increasing and people will not put up with the current crop of politicians if this continues. This isn't the first time that people are attacking democracy in Western Europe and it isn't going to be the last time. There's only so much you can do in a liberal democracy. The reaction can't be to build a police or surveillance state or buy into the ridiculous race war rhetoric. Of course it's the government's job to protect the citizens, but it's also everybody's job (including the media) to accept the limits of how much safety is possible in a liberal society. I can't accept this pityful discourse that basically consider us to be impotent before all this. It's incredibly irresponsible to argue this way, like this damn wretched Cohn-Bendit. I consider this kind of argument to be one of the few things that can effectively push the people of europe toward a less democratic society. There are clear things that we must and can do to prevent those attacks, like more control on borders in regards to guns for exemple or heavier scrutiny on the identity of migrants. We cannot accept that a belgium citizen, like Abaaoud, makes multiples trip from europe to syria, collect dickheads throughout europe, and plan an attack in the french soil like it's no big deal.
I agree with all of that.
However again not really relevant to a crazy person with no connections to terrorism going on a murdering spree. Here Nyx is right, there really isn't a whole lot you can do against that.
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On July 23 2016 09:03 m4ini wrote:Show nested quote +On July 23 2016 09:00 WhiteDog wrote:On July 23 2016 08:31 Nyxisto wrote:On July 23 2016 08:26 DeepElemBlues wrote:
I don't know what cynicism or realism is here but it's pretty real that Western governments in general are failing at preventing these attacks right now, it doesn't matter if it's Muslims or Nazis or schizophrenics. Governments are supposed to handle it regardless of who is doing it. The frequency of attacks is increasing and people will not put up with the current crop of politicians if this continues. This isn't the first time that people are attacking democracy in Western Europe and it isn't going to be the last time. There's only so much you can do in a liberal democracy. The reaction can't be to build a police or surveillance state or buy into the ridiculous race war rhetoric. Of course it's the government's job to protect the citizens, but it's also everybody's job (including the media) to accept the limits of how much safety is possible in a liberal society. I can't accept this pityful discourse that basically consider us to be impotent before all this. It's incredibly irresponsible to argue this way, like this damn wretched Cohn-Bendit. I consider this kind of argument to be one of the few things that can effectively push the people of europe toward a less democratic society. There are clear things that we must and can do to prevent those attacks, like more control on borders in regards to guns for exemple or heavier scrutiny on the identity of migrants. We cannot accept that a belgium citizen, like Abaaoud, makes multiples trip from europe to syria, collect dickheads throughout europe, and plan an attack in the french soil like it's no big deal. While i don't necessarily disagree (i don't at all) - how does this relate to this attack now? You'll always have illegal weapons. People act like there never were any. Even Australia has it, and they have some of the best border security in the world.
It does not relate to this attack at all, I was just bored at the comment overall. There is nothing to do about this specific attack, it's just sad.
But there is a point where a society cannot take it anymore. And people have no problem finding scapegoat. And yes, you will always have murder and illegal weapon... the question is the scale and the frequency.
Edit: Plz whitedog. There is a difference between talking like rational people and just throwing out blame based on rhetoric. Multiculturalism is a vague, useless term that people thrown around when they are worried they will sound xenophobic.
Multiculturalism is a philosophical doctrine defended by the likes of Charles Taylor, a doctrine that value diversity and differences above common belonging, a theory that I consider to be completly false. As for societies, they are all multicultural, and people who disagree with that don't go out enough.
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On July 23 2016 09:03 NukeD wrote:Show nested quote +On July 23 2016 08:59 Plansix wrote:
Violence happened someplace in the EU, clearly the boogieman known as Multiculturalism must be to blame. We must find how Multiculturalism is the cause and then, most importantly, blame the left and Muslims. Thats just my viewpoint. You are more than welcome to present your cause of the problem. However, once again, im not taking anymore of this isolated case bullshit.
Quick. Wanna take a ban bet of 30 days that this actually is an isolated case?
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Works in the UK, so i assume it works everywhere - thanks.
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On July 23 2016 08:56 m4ini wrote:Show nested quote +On July 23 2016 08:52 Sent. wrote:On July 23 2016 08:36 NukeD wrote:On July 23 2016 08:31 Nyxisto wrote:On July 23 2016 08:26 DeepElemBlues wrote:
I don't know what cynicism or realism is here but it's pretty real that Western governments in general are failing at preventing these attacks right now, it doesn't matter if it's Muslims or Nazis or schizophrenics. Governments are supposed to handle it regardless of who is doing it. The frequency of attacks is increasing and people will not put up with the current crop of politicians if this continues. This isn't the first time that people are attacking democracy in Western Europe and it isn't going to be the last time. There's only so much you can do in a liberal democracy. The reaction can't be to build a police or surveillance state or buy into the ridiculous race war rhetoric. Of course it's the government's job to protect the citizens, but it's also everybody's job (including the media) to accept the limits of how much safety is possible in a liberal society. Its actually very possible for those societies to be very safe. You'll have to abolish "multiculturism" first tho (at least to a degree). You can't abolish multiculturalism without ethnic cleansings or mass deportations. Even if you assume multicultarism is evil, you still have to admit it's an evil lesser than these two. It's not though (edit: evil, to clarify). Germany as we know it today was built by a multicultural population. Google "Guest workers", or the german word "Gastarbeiter". Multiculturalism isn't inherently bad. Show nested quote +It was likely a deranged man. Given the video evidence we've seen most people seem to think so as well. In the case of Breivik he seemed to be pretty anti-multiculturalism. So you could still attribute his attack under the umbrella of rejecting the leftist viewpoint. So his statement is not exactly wrong. That is still an effect of multiculturalism technically.
That's the dumbest disguise i've ever seen for blatant xenophobia.
Obviously it is not. It is highly dependant on which cultures make up your "multi culture".
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On July 23 2016 09:06 NukeD wrote:Show nested quote +On July 23 2016 08:56 m4ini wrote:On July 23 2016 08:52 Sent. wrote:On July 23 2016 08:36 NukeD wrote:On July 23 2016 08:31 Nyxisto wrote:On July 23 2016 08:26 DeepElemBlues wrote:
I don't know what cynicism or realism is here but it's pretty real that Western governments in general are failing at preventing these attacks right now, it doesn't matter if it's Muslims or Nazis or schizophrenics. Governments are supposed to handle it regardless of who is doing it. The frequency of attacks is increasing and people will not put up with the current crop of politicians if this continues. This isn't the first time that people are attacking democracy in Western Europe and it isn't going to be the last time. There's only so much you can do in a liberal democracy. The reaction can't be to build a police or surveillance state or buy into the ridiculous race war rhetoric. Of course it's the government's job to protect the citizens, but it's also everybody's job (including the media) to accept the limits of how much safety is possible in a liberal society. Its actually very possible for those societies to be very safe. You'll have to abolish "multiculturism" first tho (at least to a degree). You can't abolish multiculturalism without ethnic cleansings or mass deportations. Even if you assume multicultarism is evil, you still have to admit it's an evil lesser than these two. It's not though (edit: evil, to clarify). Germany as we know it today was built by a multicultural population. Google "Guest workers", or the german word "Gastarbeiter". Multiculturalism isn't inherently bad. It was likely a deranged man. Given the video evidence we've seen most people seem to think so as well. In the case of Breivik he seemed to be pretty anti-multiculturalism. So you could still attribute his attack under the umbrella of rejecting the leftist viewpoint. So his statement is not exactly wrong. That is still an effect of multiculturalism technically.
That's the dumbest disguise i've ever seen for blatant xenophobia. Obviously it is not. It is highly dependant on which cultures make up your "multi culture".
The largest group was rural turkish people. In the 60s.
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Multiculturalism works, it is just Islam that struggles with it.
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On July 23 2016 09:03 NukeD wrote:Show nested quote +On July 23 2016 08:59 Plansix wrote:
Violence happened someplace in the EU, clearly the boogieman known as Multiculturalism must be to blame. We must find how Multiculturalism is the cause and then, most importantly, blame the left and Muslims. Thats just my viewpoint. You are more than welcome to present your cause of the problem. However, once again, im not taking anymore of this isolated case bullshit.
Nah, I'll just remember your theories on 9/11 and trust you are not the best judge of reality.
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On July 23 2016 08:56 m4ini wrote:Show nested quote +On July 23 2016 08:52 Sent. wrote:On July 23 2016 08:36 NukeD wrote:On July 23 2016 08:31 Nyxisto wrote:On July 23 2016 08:26 DeepElemBlues wrote:
I don't know what cynicism or realism is here but it's pretty real that Western governments in general are failing at preventing these attacks right now, it doesn't matter if it's Muslims or Nazis or schizophrenics. Governments are supposed to handle it regardless of who is doing it. The frequency of attacks is increasing and people will not put up with the current crop of politicians if this continues. This isn't the first time that people are attacking democracy in Western Europe and it isn't going to be the last time. There's only so much you can do in a liberal democracy. The reaction can't be to build a police or surveillance state or buy into the ridiculous race war rhetoric. Of course it's the government's job to protect the citizens, but it's also everybody's job (including the media) to accept the limits of how much safety is possible in a liberal society. Its actually very possible for those societies to be very safe. You'll have to abolish "multiculturism" first tho (at least to a degree). You can't abolish multiculturalism without ethnic cleansings or mass deportations. Even if you assume multicultarism is evil, you still have to admit it's an evil lesser than these two. It's not though (edit: evil, to clarify). Germany as we know it today was built by a multicultural population. Google "Guest workers", or the german word "Gastarbeiter". Multiculturalism isn't inherently bad. Show nested quote +It was likely a deranged man. Given the video evidence we've seen most people seem to think so as well. In the case of Breivik he seemed to be pretty anti-multiculturalism. So you could still attribute his attack under the umbrella of rejecting the leftist viewpoint. So his statement is not exactly wrong. That is still an effect of multiculturalism technically.
T hat's the dumbest disguise i've ever seen for blatant xenophobia.
All things are good in small doses.
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EPT
