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On March 31 2021 07:19 JimmiC wrote: Chretien had a lot of success, based on two major polices he ran his campaign on canceling Free Trade and the GST. It took until harper to even bring the GST down and no one got rid of free trade since it was clearly a winner. He also was corrupt
Chretien's decision is expand free trade was a great move. Chretien gave Canada mid 80s levels of economic prosperity while also paying down the debt.
If a prospective PM breaks his promises and its the right move... i don't care. The PM should do the right thing. Chretien's trade maneuvres throughout his tenure as PM were excellent. Canadians benefited accordingly.
A really good measure of how big and prosperous the middle class were during Chretien's time in office is the quality of the hockey players Canada produced 10 years later. Millions of middle class families could easily afford to have their kids play in the extremely expensive sport of hockey.
I trust Jean Chretien to steer Canada through the shark infested waters of globalization than I do Justin Trudeau. Chretien was 1000X smarter, far more experienced, and had taken on some of the toughest jobs in Canadian government before becoming PM. He was battle tested... a savvy veteran of diplomacy and politics who represented Canada very well.
On March 31 2021 07:19 JimmiC wrote: Chretien had a lot of success, based on two major polices he ran his campaign on canceling Free Trade and the GST. It took until harper to even bring the GST down and no one got rid of free trade since it was clearly a winner. He also was corrupt
I don't want to go on a long polemic diatribe about Canada's failing the past 15 years so I will offer an alternative to Justin Trudeau. I'd rather see Bob Rae on the left or John Torey on the right as PM of Canada. If I can't get either of those two guys.. I'll take Ken Dryden.
Last election we had a choice between a guy who couldn't handle Canada's crappiest engineering school and a guy who was almost an insurance broker once. Sigh, watch the quality of the debates between P.E.T. , Clark , and Broadbent. It puts Canada's current crop of "leaders" to shame.
Philosophically, I'm in favour of a consumption based tax. So hte GST is all good by my standards. They should lower income tax. Productivity is a noble act and should be taxed as little as possible. Consumption... on the other hand.. consumption should be taxed.
On March 31 2021 09:12 JimmiC wrote: And corruption is never OK, we would be better off if we didn't have it.
the best way to have zero corruption is have everyone making $0. As any company or country expands and becomes wealthier there is always some fraud and corruption to go with it. meh. If the average Canadian is better off... that's my primary concern.
On March 31 2021 09:12 JimmiC wrote: I'm glad he went back on his word on free-trade, but give credit to the person who put it place, not the one who thought it was terrible and then when it worked rode the wave rather then canceling it.
Mulroney did a nice job. Chretien greatly expanded the deal and got better dispute resolution terms.
Economic opportunity increased during the Mulroney era and he deserves some credit for that. However, he also incurred deficits and added to the national debt. Chretien steered Canada through the shark infested international trade waters and gave us huge economic opportunity WHILE PAYING OFF SOME OF THE DEBT.
The short term spending spree Justin is on... was made possible by responsible leaders like Jean Chretien who kept the economy going very strongly while paying off some national debt. Bill Davis, Bob Rae and Mike Harris were also very responsible in managing Ontario's debt and they keep it close to $0. Great job by those guys.
On March 31 2021 09:16 JimmiC wrote: There are worse leaders, but acting like he was not incredibly flawed, dishonest and self interested and so on is historically innacurate.
results are my concern. I've posted his results. Over the last 50 years... no PM has done better. An ever growing and strengthened middle class blossomed under Chretien's tenure.
After-tax median family incomes rose by almost one-third (29.9%) from 1994 to 2014 most of that occurred during Chretien's tenure as PM. Source: it is the Waterloo study I already posted.
Now, the middle class in Canada is being obliterated while Justin Trudeau is on a perpetual apology tour.... saying "sorry" for dumb mistake after dumb mistake. Source: Rubin//Paikin interview posted earlier. As soon as Justin is taken off track of whatever very specific speech he is giving the guy bumbles, mumbles, and fumbles over his own words. Its embarrassing man.
Watch this.. .Trap questions.. trick questions... and P.E.T. steam rolls right over this loser....THIS IS A LEADER.
"there is a lot of bleeding hearts around who don't like the look of people with helmets of guns. all i can is ... go on and bleed. its more important to keep law and order in this society."
This is a brilliant and gutsy move by Jean Chretien to accept an open interview with another Canadian genius... Neil Peart.
I wish Canada had leaders of the caliber of Chretien and Trudeau. Alas, it no longer does.
I think it's worth mentioning I think a lot of what you credit Chretien with in terms of the economy should actually be attributed to his finance minister Paul Martin. Considering how publicly they fought I think it's safe to say Chretien wasn't able to do what he wanted very often but Martin's policies worked very well through the mid 90's.
Thanks for the discussions. Yeah, I don't have any real memories of what the older prime ministers did. I completely forgot Paul Martin was a Prime Minister til I heard the name. The only reason I remember Chretien is his disability and unique speaking style.
On March 31 2021 10:55 JimmiC wrote: Not that JT is great that was never my point nor would I vote for him.
I've already listed my alternatives. I don't think Rae or Dryden are interested any longer.. .and Torey is having too much fun running Toronto. Canada's ability to attact top notch minds to the PM job no longer exists.
I didn't leave Canada merely because it is slowly declining. I left because I see no reasonable pathway back to greatness for Canada.
Also, JT didn't bust into some piggy bank, the world changed monetary policy.
Canada sets its budgets. Justin Trudeau's Canada keeps spending like Greece and Canada will lose that independence. Justin is spending like a crazy man. Chretien's Liberals allowed the middle class to blossom while not spending like a Reagan or P.E.T. Any leader can spend money like crazy and temporarily keep things going well. That is what Justin is doing right now.
On March 31 2021 10:55 JimmiC wrote: I'm glad you think those guys are amazing. I disagree.
Chretien's results were amazing. I've posted the data. There is no thinking needed. The middle class that blossomed under Chretien is being obliterated. I linked you to Rubin's book that explains it in excruciating detail.
So far you've not really contested any of my data points so I'll just have to assume you will concede that hte middle class is getting annihilated in Canada.
On March 31 2021 11:31 OmniEulogy wrote: I think it's worth mentioning I think a lot of what you credit Chretien with in terms of the economy should actually be attributed to his finance minister Paul Martin. Considering how publicly they fought I think it's safe to say Chretien wasn't able to do what he wanted very often but Martin's policies worked very well through the mid 90's.
i'd say Mike Harris's Ontario was a big contributor to Chretien's success. Harris cut welfare payments by 20% and instituted a plethora of pro business measures ... and Ontario experienced and extended economic BOOM that today's citizens can only dream of.
On April 01 2021 00:32 Lmui wrote: Thanks for the discussions. Yeah, I don't have any real memories of what the older prime ministers did. I completely forgot Paul Martin was a Prime Minister til I heard the name. The only reason I remember Chretien is his disability and unique speaking style.
Past PMs and major party leaders were often top notch lawyers. Bob Rae and Ken Dryden are brilliant lawyers. Now we have school teachers and "almost insurance brokers" vying for the PM job. Its sad man.
Teacher's College is a joke compared to running the gauntlet of a top notch law school.
Here is a comedic view of the great levels of prosperity and opportunity available in Ontario and Toronto in past decades.
Unfortunately, that level of opportunity is now gone.
I don't see Canada attracting the calibre of immigrant the country could attract 20 years ago because the level of economic opportunity is not there.
On April 02 2021 00:33 JimmiC wrote: The data you posted is not about Chetchens performance but rather Canada's during his tenure. More then just me have pointed out why that matters. You can keep having your opinions by all means, just stop confusing them with facts.
Canada's performance under Chretien's tenure. And, the PM's moves have a big impact on that performance.
Jean Chretien : law graduate university of laval. Served as minister of justice and minister of finance before becoming PM.
I don't see any Canadian politician on the horizon with this level of battle tested readiness vying for the PM job. And, at this point this is precisely what Canada needs.
On April 02 2021 00:33 JimmiC wrote: just stop confusing them with facts.
On April 02 2021 00:33 JimmiC wrote: The data you posted is not about Chetchens performance but rather Canada's during his tenure. More then just me have pointed out why that matters. You can keep having your opinions by all means, just stop confusing them with facts.
Canada's performance under Chretien's tenure. And, the PM's moves have a big impact on that performance.
Yes as do a lot of other factors, me and many others believe it is the other ones that mattered more.
as i stated the way Mike Harris ran Ontario was also a big contributor. Unfortunately, I don't see any prominent Canadian politicians at the level of Hazel Mccallion, Mike Harris and John Chretien who can make any region of Canada as great a place as southern Ontario was during Chretien's tenure as PM.
On April 02 2021 00:33 JimmiC wrote: The data you posted is not about Chetchens performance but rather Canada's during his tenure. More then just me have pointed out why that matters. You can keep having your opinions by all means, just stop confusing them with facts.
Canada's performance under Chretien's tenure. And, the PM's moves have a big impact on that performance.
Yes as do a lot of other factors, me and many others believe it is the other ones that mattered more. This is why me and other brought up those factors as well as normalizing the data compared to other countries at the same time period. This would help to show how much is Chetien and how much was good timing for example.
Canada did better than other G7 nations in terms of economic growth.
To the contrary, as governments reduced and constrained spending, a greater share of the resources in our economy was controlled by individuals, families and businesses rather than governments. The result was a robust economy with average inflation-adjusted economic growth in Canada exceeding that in the United States and every other G7 country since the mid-1990s.
On April 02 2021 00:33 JimmiC wrote: The data you posted is not about Chetchens performance but rather Canada's during his tenure. More then just me have pointed out why that matters. You can keep having your opinions by all means, just stop confusing them with facts.
Canada's performance under Chretien's tenure. And, the PM's moves have a big impact on that performance.
Yes as do a lot of other factors, me and many others believe it is the other ones that mattered more.
as i stated the way Mike Harris ran Ontario was also a big contributor. Unfortunately, I don't see any prominent Canadian politicians at the level of Hazel Mccallion, Mike Harris and John Chretien who can make any region of Canada as great a place as southern Ontario was during Chretien's tenure as PM.
On April 02 2021 00:40 JimmiC wrote:
On April 02 2021 00:36 JimmyJRaynor wrote:
On April 02 2021 00:33 JimmiC wrote: The data you posted is not about Chetchens performance but rather Canada's during his tenure. More then just me have pointed out why that matters. You can keep having your opinions by all means, just stop confusing them with facts.
Canada's performance under Chretien's tenure. And, the PM's moves have a big impact on that performance.
Yes as do a lot of other factors, me and many others believe it is the other ones that mattered more. This is why me and other brought up those factors as well as normalizing the data compared to other countries at the same time period. This would help to show how much is Chetien and how much was good timing for example.
Canada did better than other G7 nations in terms of economic growth.
To the contrary, as governments reduced and constrained spending, a greater share of the resources in our economy was controlled by individuals, families and businesses rather than governments. The result was a robust economy with average inflation-adjusted economic growth in Canada exceeding that in the United States and every other G7 country since the mid-1990s.
According to the IMF's 2018 annual Article IV Mission to Canada, compared to all the G7 countries, including the United States, Canada's "total government net debt-to-GDP ratio", is the lowest.[14] Canada has been the G7 leader in economic growth since 2016.[14] The unemployment rate in Canada is at its lowest level since c.1978.[14] Over 600,000 full-time jobs have been created in Canada since early 2016.[14]
By your own logic JT is kickin ass!
again you half read my stuff. So I will repeat it: Chretien's tenure saw great economic growth WHILE paying off debt. JT is on a spending spree. Anyone can create temporary success by spending money like crazy and sinking their jurisdiction into a huge debt.
A spending spree also takes away from some of the economic successes Reagan had in the USA and P.E.T. had in Canada.
Any one can spend money and ring up a giant credit card bill.
On April 02 2021 02:22 JimmiC wrote: Like I said feel free to keep holding the OPINION of Chretchen's greatness,
it isn't just Chretien. Its the calibre of mind that used to be at the upper echelon of Canada's leadership.
Canada's leaders used to be way smarter... far more experienced and way more battle tested.
has there been some good job creation during JT's tenure. Yes. However, another sad fact of Canadian life... the percentage of minimum wage jobs has skyrocketed from 2008 to 2018.
Ontario used to be the land of opportunity for all Canadians. Now? it is the minimum epicenter of the great white north.
No wonder Canada's best university grads are fleeing the country in droves. SOURCE: i've posted it several times. if you need a source once again.. lemme know.
On April 02 2021 00:33 JimmiC wrote: The data you posted is not about Chetchens performance but rather Canada's during his tenure. More then just me have pointed out why that matters. You can keep having your opinions by all means, just stop confusing them with facts.
Canada's performance under Chretien's tenure. And, the PM's moves have a big impact on that performance.
Yes as do a lot of other factors, me and many others believe it is the other ones that mattered more.
as i stated the way Mike Harris ran Ontario was also a big contributor. Unfortunately, I don't see any prominent Canadian politicians at the level of Hazel Mccallion, Mike Harris and John Chretien who can make any region of Canada as great a place as southern Ontario was during Chretien's tenure as PM.
On April 02 2021 00:40 JimmiC wrote:
On April 02 2021 00:36 JimmyJRaynor wrote:
On April 02 2021 00:33 JimmiC wrote: The data you posted is not about Chetchens performance but rather Canada's during his tenure. More then just me have pointed out why that matters. You can keep having your opinions by all means, just stop confusing them with facts.
Canada's performance under Chretien's tenure. And, the PM's moves have a big impact on that performance.
Yes as do a lot of other factors, me and many others believe it is the other ones that mattered more. This is why me and other brought up those factors as well as normalizing the data compared to other countries at the same time period. This would help to show how much is Chetien and how much was good timing for example.
Canada did better than other G7 nations in terms of economic growth.
To the contrary, as governments reduced and constrained spending, a greater share of the resources in our economy was controlled by individuals, families and businesses rather than governments. The result was a robust economy with average inflation-adjusted economic growth in Canada exceeding that in the United States and every other G7 country since the mid-1990s.
Mike Harris was also a big part of that move to smaller government.
Here is the thing if you hang your hat on one stat.
According to the IMF's 2018 annual Article IV Mission to Canada, compared to all the G7 countries, including the United States, Canada's "total government net debt-to-GDP ratio", is the lowest.[14] Canada has been the G7 leader in economic growth since 2016.[14] The unemployment rate in Canada is at its lowest level since c.1978.[14] Over 600,000 full-time jobs have been created in Canada since early 2016.[14]
By your own logic JT is kickin ass!
again you half read my stuff. So I will repeat it: Chretien's tenure saw great economic growth WHILE paying off debt. JT is on a spending spree. Anyone can create temporary success by spending money like crazy and sinking their jurisdiction into a huge debt.
A spending spree also takes away from some of the economic successes Reagan had in the USA and P.E.T. had in Canada.
Any one can spend money and ring up a giant credit card bill.
On April 02 2021 02:22 JimmiC wrote: Like I said feel free to keep holding the OPINION of Chretchen's greatness,
it isn't just Chretien. Its the calibre of mind that used to be at the upper echelon of Canada's leadership.
Canada's leaders used to be way smarter... far more experienced and way more battle tested.
You misread the quote, it is about how the debt to GDP ration is the lowest, and so on. Which if you remember our talk about normalization as well as changes in monetary policy you might get what I'm getting at, or not.
I would agree we are in a lower point for leadership. I disagree that Chretien was a great leader. I would also be disagreeing if you were saying JT was great as well.
and our debt to GDP ratio was higher when Pierre Trudeau left office in 1984. Under Mulroney and Chretien Canada had the best debt/GDP ratio amongst the G7.
This allowed JT to go on a spending spree which will offer Canadians a short term windfall. What is sad is, that short term "windfall" is mainly a bunch of minimum wage jobs.
Furthermore, for the past 10 years federal leaders have been off-loading to the provinces making our provincial debt/GDP ratio the worst in its history. Under Chretien , provincial Debt/GDP was excellent.
On April 02 2021 03:40 JimmiC wrote: I would agree we are in a lower point for leadership. I disagree that Chretien was a great leader. I would also be disagreeing if you were saying JT was great as well.
I don't see any great leaders on the horizon. I see Canada's standard of living continuing to decline.
On April 02 2021 07:46 JimmiC wrote: My point is and always has been Chretien was very flawed.
when you get a lot done... you make mistakes. if i can get a 20%+ improvement in my standard of living... i'm more than willing to put up with Chretien's flaws. So will many other immigrants looking for better economic opportunities.
Relatively speaking , Chretien's "scandals" were minor. Deliver me a better life .. and i'll look past it. The economic opportunities my friends and I had when i was 17-20 (2003-2006) ... teenagers can only dream of today...
"there is a rainbow in Toronto.. where the maritimers are bold..."
EPT![[image loading]](https://pressprogress.ca/wp-content/uploads/2019/09/c-g02-eng.png)
