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On March 19 2015 23:30 Hryul wrote:Show nested quote +On March 19 2015 23:15 Stratos_speAr wrote:On March 19 2015 23:08 Hryul wrote:On March 19 2015 23:06 Stratos_speAr wrote:On March 19 2015 22:56 Ghostcom wrote:On March 19 2015 22:51 Stratos_speAr wrote:On March 19 2015 15:53 xM(Z wrote:On March 19 2015 15:19 kwizach wrote:On March 19 2015 15:01 xM(Z wrote:On March 19 2015 14:29 kwizach wrote:[quote] I'm not sure you realize that nowhere in your post did you disprove the fact that feminism is first and foremost about wanting equality between the sexes on the political, economical and social levels. Your extremely incomplete list of prominent first and second waves feminist thinkers certainly did not disprove it, and your cherry-picking of a few quotes on one feminist organization's website didn't disprove it (in fact, if you take a look at that organization's "what we want" section, you'll see that what they declare they want is precisely equality between the sexes). It's one thing to disagree with the kind of "us vs them" mentality they're pushing forward on their website, but that doesn't change the fact that the ultimate objective is equality. Likewise, I'm not sure where you got the idea that the use of concepts like that of "patriarchy" was somehow antithetical to a desire to achieve equality - precisely by fighting against patriarchal systems. Like Stratos_speAr rightly said, feminism is defined as "the belief that men and women should have equal rights and opportunities", "the theory of the political, economic, and social equality of the sexes", etc. You're free to disagree with whatever feminist authors and organizations you want, but that doesn't change the fact that the core objective of feminism is to achieve equality between the sexes. I'm not sure the thread's original post warrants transforming this thread into a discussion about what feminism is and isn't, though - this is supposed to be a thread about sexist harassment in video games. the second definition of the word in that dictionary ( which you conveniently left out) is: "organized activity in support of women's rights and interests". that doesn't sound to equal to me. i just can't believe feminism is about equality just because it is called femi-n-ism. you can call it oversimplified misogyny but it's just basic logic for me. It is called feminism because women have historically been, as a group, denied the political, economical and social independence and legitimacy that men have enjoyed. The bulk of the movement has therefore been targeted at addressing the discriminations that women suffer from as women, in order to help them have the same rights and opportunities as men. This doesn't mean that men aren't also affected by, for example, stereotypical gender roles, but it does mean that it is women and not men who have historically and presently been put in a subordinate position because of their gender in patriarchal systems. Since feminism is about achieving equality, though, you'll find plenty of feminist scholars and activists also deconstructing and fighting against discriminations and negative gender roles that apply to men. i have no problem with women having their own movement that deals with women issues, called feminism but every time i see a dude like you pushing the 'woman-man' equality agenda over and over and over i can't help but see you strapping on some C4 and randomly start blowing men up just because ... fuck it and why not; Ex: in a random community, there's like 50 men and 30 women(thing which is totally against the QUOTA) so 20 men must die to achieve equality. you are a scary extremist. it's just how you look to me. The fact that you see feminism as extreme and an attack on you is a -You- problem. In other words, it's entirely your fault for having this radical perception of feminism where there are plenty of feminists that don't approach it like that at all. Considering that a majority (referencing the huffingtonpost article here) considers feminism extreme I would say it is an issue of feminism and not of any individual. There are plenty of feminists who actively fight against men trying to obtain equal rights to those of women for example in the justice system and especially when it comes to child custody laws. The no-true-Scotsmen argument of those feminists not being actual feminists is hilariously bad because why is your definition of feminism any more valid than theirs? Probably because I never said that they weren't feminists. If you want to accuse me of a logical fallacy, you should probably know what you're talking about. What I've been saying is that they aren't all feminists. You don't define a group by its radical parts, especially when there have been feminists critiquing other feminists for being too radical. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Feminism#Critique_of_feminism_and_anti-feminismNot only that, your interpretation of that HuffPost poll is ridiculously simplified. you are claiming the simplification without giving a better explanation. How about an explanation like almost everything else in the world? One that is actually slightly more nuanced? Not only can the public's perception of something hardly be taken to actually define it, but his interpretation does nothing to address the role of the media or other prominent figures/groups in shaping or distorting the public's image of feminism, and the media has been pretty harshly criticized on how it depicts feminism. To ignore those influences and just say, "it's an issue of feminism that so many think that feminism is extreme" is just lazy. Funny that you bring up the negative influence of media in the depiction of feminism. I just stumbled upon this tweet from Jessica Valenti. wiki: In 2011, The Guardian, where she works as a daily columnist, named Valenti as one of their "top 100 women" for her work to bring the feminist movement online. So this is a feminist working in the media.
Context? I am not a feminist and have a general distaste for radical feminism, but taking individual tweets as gospel is a mistake many people are making nowadays. It could be a joke, satire, reference, or response to another tweet.
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On March 19 2015 23:54 ZasZ. wrote:Show nested quote +On March 19 2015 23:30 Hryul wrote:On March 19 2015 23:15 Stratos_speAr wrote:On March 19 2015 23:08 Hryul wrote:On March 19 2015 23:06 Stratos_speAr wrote:On March 19 2015 22:56 Ghostcom wrote:On March 19 2015 22:51 Stratos_speAr wrote:On March 19 2015 15:53 xM(Z wrote:On March 19 2015 15:19 kwizach wrote:On March 19 2015 15:01 xM(Z wrote:
[quote]
the second definition of the word in that dictionary (which you conveniently left out) is: "organized activity in support of women's rights and interests". that doesn't sound to equal to me.
i just can't believe feminism is about equality just because it is called femi-n-ism. you can call it oversimplified misogyny but it's just basic logic for me. It is called feminism because women have historically been, as a group, denied the political, economical and social independence and legitimacy that men have enjoyed. The bulk of the movement has therefore been targeted at addressing the discriminations that women suffer from as women, in order to help them have the same rights and opportunities as men. This doesn't mean that men aren't also affected by, for example, stereotypical gender roles, but it does mean that it is women and not men who have historically and presently been put in a subordinate position because of their gender in patriarchal systems. Since feminism is about achieving equality, though, you'll find plenty of feminist scholars and activists also deconstructing and fighting against discriminations and negative gender roles that apply to men. i have no problem with women having their own movement that deals with women issues, called feminism but every time i see a dude like you pushing the 'woman-man' equality agenda over and over and over i can't help but see you strapping on some C4 and randomly start blowing men up just because ... fuck it and why not; Ex: in a random community, there's like 50 men and 30 women(thing which is totally against the QUOTA) so 20 men must die to achieve equality. you are a scary extremist. it's just how you look to me. The fact that you see feminism as extreme and an attack on you is a -You- problem. In other words, it's entirely your fault for having this radical perception of feminism where there are plenty of feminists that don't approach it like that at all. Considering that a majority (referencing the huffingtonpost article here) considers feminism extreme I would say it is an issue of feminism and not of any individual. There are plenty of feminists who actively fight against men trying to obtain equal rights to those of women for example in the justice system and especially when it comes to child custody laws. The no-true-Scotsmen argument of those feminists not being actual feminists is hilariously bad because why is your definition of feminism any more valid than theirs? Probably because I never said that they weren't feminists. If you want to accuse me of a logical fallacy, you should probably know what you're talking about. What I've been saying is that they aren't all feminists. You don't define a group by its radical parts, especially when there have been feminists critiquing other feminists for being too radical. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Feminism#Critique_of_feminism_and_anti-feminismNot only that, your interpretation of that HuffPost poll is ridiculously simplified. you are claiming the simplification without giving a better explanation. How about an explanation like almost everything else in the world? One that is actually slightly more nuanced? Not only can the public's perception of something hardly be taken to actually define it, but his interpretation does nothing to address the role of the media or other prominent figures/groups in shaping or distorting the public's image of feminism, and the media has been pretty harshly criticized on how it depicts feminism. To ignore those influences and just say, "it's an issue of feminism that so many think that feminism is extreme" is just lazy. Funny that you bring up the negative influence of media in the depiction of feminism. I just stumbled upon this tweet https://twitter.com/JessicaValenti/status/573592179286876160from Jessica Valenti. wiki: In 2011, The Guardian, where she works as a daily columnist, named Valenti as one of their "top 100 women" for her work to bring the feminist movement online. So this is a feminist working in the media. Context? I am not a feminist and have a general distaste for radical feminism, but taking individual tweets as gospel is a mistake many people are making nowadays. It could be a joke, satire, reference, or response to another tweet.
I don't know anything about her, but my first inclination was to take it as a joke.
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It is and there is nothing wrong with it... BUT
Try to do the same in an exposed position as a man making fun of women.
Let's see how well your joke will be recieved  .
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On March 20 2015 00:22 xDaunt wrote:Show nested quote +On March 19 2015 23:54 ZasZ. wrote:On March 19 2015 23:30 Hryul wrote:On March 19 2015 23:15 Stratos_speAr wrote:On March 19 2015 23:08 Hryul wrote:On March 19 2015 23:06 Stratos_speAr wrote:On March 19 2015 22:56 Ghostcom wrote:On March 19 2015 22:51 Stratos_speAr wrote:On March 19 2015 15:53 xM(Z wrote:On March 19 2015 15:19 kwizach wrote:
[quote]
It is called feminism because women have historically been, as a group, denied the political, economical and social independence and legitimacy that men have enjoyed. The bulk of the movement has therefore been targeted at addressing the discriminations that women suffer from as women, in order to help them have the same rights and opportunities as men. This doesn't mean that men aren't also affected by, for example, stereotypical gender roles, but it does mean that it is women and not men who have historically and presently been put in a subordinate position because of their gender in patriarchal systems. Since feminism is about achieving equality, though, you'll find plenty of feminist scholars and activists also deconstructing and fighting against discriminations and negative gender roles that apply to men. i have no problem with women having their own movement that deals with women issues, called feminism but every time i see a dude like you pushing the 'woman-man' equality agenda over and over and over i can't help but see you strapping on some C4 and randomly start blowing men up just because ... fuck it and why not; Ex: in a random community, there's like 50 men and 30 women(thing which is totally against the QUOTA) so 20 men must die to achieve equality. you are a scary extremist. it's just how you look to me. The fact that you see feminism as extreme and an attack on you is a -You- problem. In other words, it's entirely your fault for having this radical perception of feminism where there are plenty of feminists that don't approach it like that at all. Considering that a majority (referencing the huffingtonpost article here) considers feminism extreme I would say it is an issue of feminism and not of any individual. There are plenty of feminists who actively fight against men trying to obtain equal rights to those of women for example in the justice system and especially when it comes to child custody laws. The no-true-Scotsmen argument of those feminists not being actual feminists is hilariously bad because why is your definition of feminism any more valid than theirs? Probably because I never said that they weren't feminists. If you want to accuse me of a logical fallacy, you should probably know what you're talking about. What I've been saying is that they aren't all feminists. You don't define a group by its radical parts, especially when there have been feminists critiquing other feminists for being too radical. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Feminism#Critique_of_feminism_and_anti-feminismNot only that, your interpretation of that HuffPost poll is ridiculously simplified. you are claiming the simplification without giving a better explanation. How about an explanation like almost everything else in the world? One that is actually slightly more nuanced? Not only can the public's perception of something hardly be taken to actually define it, but his interpretation does nothing to address the role of the media or other prominent figures/groups in shaping or distorting the public's image of feminism, and the media has been pretty harshly criticized on how it depicts feminism. To ignore those influences and just say, "it's an issue of feminism that so many think that feminism is extreme" is just lazy. Funny that you bring up the negative influence of media in the depiction of feminism. I just stumbled upon this tweet https://twitter.com/JessicaValenti/status/573592179286876160from Jessica Valenti. wiki: In 2011, The Guardian, where she works as a daily columnist, named Valenti as one of their "top 100 women" for her work to bring the feminist movement online. So this is a feminist working in the media. Context? I am not a feminist and have a general distaste for radical feminism, but taking individual tweets as gospel is a mistake many people are making nowadays. It could be a joke, satire, reference, or response to another tweet. I don't know anything about her, but my first inclination was to take it as a joke.
me neither. i just was reading some blog about facebook's rules with hatespeech and twitter's new "easy" method to report tweets to authorities. Her tweet was mentioned. (german btw, i would link it otherwise)
maybe it is a joke, but even then it's bad taste bordering misandry.
she's comparing men to garbage and at the same time i read from stratos that "media" is slandering feminism. with internet being an irony-free zone is it really "media's" fault when tweets like that can so easily be mistaken as misandry? especially she as a journalist should know better.
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On March 20 2015 00:31 Hryul wrote:Show nested quote +On March 20 2015 00:22 xDaunt wrote:On March 19 2015 23:54 ZasZ. wrote:On March 19 2015 23:30 Hryul wrote:On March 19 2015 23:15 Stratos_speAr wrote:On March 19 2015 23:08 Hryul wrote:On March 19 2015 23:06 Stratos_speAr wrote:On March 19 2015 22:56 Ghostcom wrote:On March 19 2015 22:51 Stratos_speAr wrote:On March 19 2015 15:53 xM(Z wrote:
[quote]
i have no problem with women having their own movement that deals with women issues, called feminism but every time i see a dude like you pushing the 'woman-man' equality agenda over and over and over i can't help but see you strapping on some C4 and randomly start blowing men up just because ... fuck it and why not; Ex: in a random community, there's like 50 men and 30 women(thing which is totally against the QUOTA) so 20 men must die to achieve equality.
you are a scary extremist. it's just how you look to me. The fact that you see feminism as extreme and an attack on you is a -You- problem. In other words, it's entirely your fault for having this radical perception of feminism where there are plenty of feminists that don't approach it like that at all. Considering that a majority (referencing the huffingtonpost article here) considers feminism extreme I would say it is an issue of feminism and not of any individual. There are plenty of feminists who actively fight against men trying to obtain equal rights to those of women for example in the justice system and especially when it comes to child custody laws. The no-true-Scotsmen argument of those feminists not being actual feminists is hilariously bad because why is your definition of feminism any more valid than theirs? Probably because I never said that they weren't feminists. If you want to accuse me of a logical fallacy, you should probably know what you're talking about. What I've been saying is that they aren't all feminists. You don't define a group by its radical parts, especially when there have been feminists critiquing other feminists for being too radical. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Feminism#Critique_of_feminism_and_anti-feminismNot only that, your interpretation of that HuffPost poll is ridiculously simplified. you are claiming the simplification without giving a better explanation. How about an explanation like almost everything else in the world? One that is actually slightly more nuanced? Not only can the public's perception of something hardly be taken to actually define it, but his interpretation does nothing to address the role of the media or other prominent figures/groups in shaping or distorting the public's image of feminism, and the media has been pretty harshly criticized on how it depicts feminism. To ignore those influences and just say, "it's an issue of feminism that so many think that feminism is extreme" is just lazy. Funny that you bring up the negative influence of media in the depiction of feminism. I just stumbled upon this tweet https://twitter.com/JessicaValenti/status/573592179286876160from Jessica Valenti. wiki: In 2011, The Guardian, where she works as a daily columnist, named Valenti as one of their "top 100 women" for her work to bring the feminist movement online. So this is a feminist working in the media. Context? I am not a feminist and have a general distaste for radical feminism, but taking individual tweets as gospel is a mistake many people are making nowadays. It could be a joke, satire, reference, or response to another tweet. I don't know anything about her, but my first inclination was to take it as a joke. me neither. i just was reading some blog about facebook's rules with hatespeech and twitter's new "easy" method to report tweets to authorities. Her tweet was mentioned. (german btw, i would link it otherwise) maybe it is a joke, but even then it's bad taste bordering misandry. she's comparing men to garbage and at the same time i read from stratos that "media" is slandering feminism. with internet being an irony-free zone is it really "media's" fault when tweets like that can so easily be mistaken as misandry? especially she as a journalist should know better.
I agree. If a guy made some crack about his wife needing go to back to the kitchen, we all know what the response would be. The double standard is ridiculous, and it applies to pretty much every kind of -ism in addition to feminism.
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On March 20 2015 00:42 xDaunt wrote:Show nested quote +On March 20 2015 00:31 Hryul wrote:On March 20 2015 00:22 xDaunt wrote:On March 19 2015 23:54 ZasZ. wrote:On March 19 2015 23:30 Hryul wrote:On March 19 2015 23:15 Stratos_speAr wrote:On March 19 2015 23:08 Hryul wrote:On March 19 2015 23:06 Stratos_speAr wrote:On March 19 2015 22:56 Ghostcom wrote:On March 19 2015 22:51 Stratos_speAr wrote:
[quote]
The fact that you see feminism as extreme and an attack on you is a -You- problem. In other words, it's entirely your fault for having this radical perception of feminism where there are plenty of feminists that don't approach it like that at all. Considering that a majority (referencing the huffingtonpost article here) considers feminism extreme I would say it is an issue of feminism and not of any individual. There are plenty of feminists who actively fight against men trying to obtain equal rights to those of women for example in the justice system and especially when it comes to child custody laws. The no-true-Scotsmen argument of those feminists not being actual feminists is hilariously bad because why is your definition of feminism any more valid than theirs? Probably because I never said that they weren't feminists. If you want to accuse me of a logical fallacy, you should probably know what you're talking about. What I've been saying is that they aren't all feminists. You don't define a group by its radical parts, especially when there have been feminists critiquing other feminists for being too radical. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Feminism#Critique_of_feminism_and_anti-feminismNot only that, your interpretation of that HuffPost poll is ridiculously simplified. you are claiming the simplification without giving a better explanation. How about an explanation like almost everything else in the world? One that is actually slightly more nuanced? Not only can the public's perception of something hardly be taken to actually define it, but his interpretation does nothing to address the role of the media or other prominent figures/groups in shaping or distorting the public's image of feminism, and the media has been pretty harshly criticized on how it depicts feminism. To ignore those influences and just say, "it's an issue of feminism that so many think that feminism is extreme" is just lazy. Funny that you bring up the negative influence of media in the depiction of feminism. I just stumbled upon this tweet https://twitter.com/JessicaValenti/status/573592179286876160from Jessica Valenti. wiki: In 2011, The Guardian, where she works as a daily columnist, named Valenti as one of their "top 100 women" for her work to bring the feminist movement online. So this is a feminist working in the media. Context? I am not a feminist and have a general distaste for radical feminism, but taking individual tweets as gospel is a mistake many people are making nowadays. It could be a joke, satire, reference, or response to another tweet. I don't know anything about her, but my first inclination was to take it as a joke. me neither. i just was reading some blog about facebook's rules with hatespeech and twitter's new "easy" method to report tweets to authorities. Her tweet was mentioned. (german btw, i would link it otherwise) maybe it is a joke, but even then it's bad taste bordering misandry. she's comparing men to garbage and at the same time i read from stratos that "media" is slandering feminism. with internet being an irony-free zone is it really "media's" fault when tweets like that can so easily be mistaken as misandry? especially she as a journalist should know better. I agree. If a guy made some crack about his wife needing go to back to the kitchen, we all know what the response would be. The double standard is ridiculous, and it applies to pretty much every kind of -ism in addition to feminism.
huh? that's a really popular joke that people make all the time.
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On March 20 2015 01:07 ComaDose wrote:Show nested quote +On March 20 2015 00:42 xDaunt wrote:On March 20 2015 00:31 Hryul wrote:On March 20 2015 00:22 xDaunt wrote:On March 19 2015 23:54 ZasZ. wrote:On March 19 2015 23:30 Hryul wrote:On March 19 2015 23:15 Stratos_speAr wrote:On March 19 2015 23:08 Hryul wrote:On March 19 2015 23:06 Stratos_speAr wrote:On March 19 2015 22:56 Ghostcom wrote:
[quote]
Considering that a majority (referencing the huffingtonpost article here) considers feminism extreme I would say it is an issue of feminism and not of any individual. There are plenty of feminists who actively fight against men trying to obtain equal rights to those of women for example in the justice system and especially when it comes to child custody laws. The no-true-Scotsmen argument of those feminists not being actual feminists is hilariously bad because why is your definition of feminism any more valid than theirs? Probably because I never said that they weren't feminists. If you want to accuse me of a logical fallacy, you should probably know what you're talking about. What I've been saying is that they aren't all feminists. You don't define a group by its radical parts, especially when there have been feminists critiquing other feminists for being too radical. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Feminism#Critique_of_feminism_and_anti-feminismNot only that, your interpretation of that HuffPost poll is ridiculously simplified. you are claiming the simplification without giving a better explanation. How about an explanation like almost everything else in the world? One that is actually slightly more nuanced? Not only can the public's perception of something hardly be taken to actually define it, but his interpretation does nothing to address the role of the media or other prominent figures/groups in shaping or distorting the public's image of feminism, and the media has been pretty harshly criticized on how it depicts feminism. To ignore those influences and just say, "it's an issue of feminism that so many think that feminism is extreme" is just lazy. Funny that you bring up the negative influence of media in the depiction of feminism. I just stumbled upon this tweet https://twitter.com/JessicaValenti/status/573592179286876160from Jessica Valenti. wiki: In 2011, The Guardian, where she works as a daily columnist, named Valenti as one of their "top 100 women" for her work to bring the feminist movement online. So this is a feminist working in the media. Context? I am not a feminist and have a general distaste for radical feminism, but taking individual tweets as gospel is a mistake many people are making nowadays. It could be a joke, satire, reference, or response to another tweet. I don't know anything about her, but my first inclination was to take it as a joke. me neither. i just was reading some blog about facebook's rules with hatespeech and twitter's new "easy" method to report tweets to authorities. Her tweet was mentioned. (german btw, i would link it otherwise) maybe it is a joke, but even then it's bad taste bordering misandry. she's comparing men to garbage and at the same time i read from stratos that "media" is slandering feminism. with internet being an irony-free zone is it really "media's" fault when tweets like that can so easily be mistaken as misandry? especially she as a journalist should know better. I agree. If a guy made some crack about his wife needing go to back to the kitchen, we all know what the response would be. The double standard is ridiculous, and it applies to pretty much every kind of -ism in addition to feminism. huh? that's a really popular joke that people make all the time.
Its almost like the context of the joke and who you are making it to matters more than the joke itself.
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On March 20 2015 01:07 ComaDose wrote:Show nested quote +On March 20 2015 00:42 xDaunt wrote:On March 20 2015 00:31 Hryul wrote:On March 20 2015 00:22 xDaunt wrote:On March 19 2015 23:54 ZasZ. wrote:On March 19 2015 23:30 Hryul wrote:On March 19 2015 23:15 Stratos_speAr wrote:On March 19 2015 23:08 Hryul wrote:On March 19 2015 23:06 Stratos_speAr wrote:On March 19 2015 22:56 Ghostcom wrote:
[quote]
Considering that a majority (referencing the huffingtonpost article here) considers feminism extreme I would say it is an issue of feminism and not of any individual. There are plenty of feminists who actively fight against men trying to obtain equal rights to those of women for example in the justice system and especially when it comes to child custody laws. The no-true-Scotsmen argument of those feminists not being actual feminists is hilariously bad because why is your definition of feminism any more valid than theirs? Probably because I never said that they weren't feminists. If you want to accuse me of a logical fallacy, you should probably know what you're talking about. What I've been saying is that they aren't all feminists. You don't define a group by its radical parts, especially when there have been feminists critiquing other feminists for being too radical. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Feminism#Critique_of_feminism_and_anti-feminismNot only that, your interpretation of that HuffPost poll is ridiculously simplified. you are claiming the simplification without giving a better explanation. How about an explanation like almost everything else in the world? One that is actually slightly more nuanced? Not only can the public's perception of something hardly be taken to actually define it, but his interpretation does nothing to address the role of the media or other prominent figures/groups in shaping or distorting the public's image of feminism, and the media has been pretty harshly criticized on how it depicts feminism. To ignore those influences and just say, "it's an issue of feminism that so many think that feminism is extreme" is just lazy. Funny that you bring up the negative influence of media in the depiction of feminism. I just stumbled upon this tweet https://twitter.com/JessicaValenti/status/573592179286876160from Jessica Valenti. wiki: In 2011, The Guardian, where she works as a daily columnist, named Valenti as one of their "top 100 women" for her work to bring the feminist movement online. So this is a feminist working in the media. Context? I am not a feminist and have a general distaste for radical feminism, but taking individual tweets as gospel is a mistake many people are making nowadays. It could be a joke, satire, reference, or response to another tweet. I don't know anything about her, but my first inclination was to take it as a joke. me neither. i just was reading some blog about facebook's rules with hatespeech and twitter's new "easy" method to report tweets to authorities. Her tweet was mentioned. (german btw, i would link it otherwise) maybe it is a joke, but even then it's bad taste bordering misandry. she's comparing men to garbage and at the same time i read from stratos that "media" is slandering feminism. with internet being an irony-free zone is it really "media's" fault when tweets like that can so easily be mistaken as misandry? especially she as a journalist should know better. I agree. If a guy made some crack about his wife needing go to back to the kitchen, we all know what the response would be. The double standard is ridiculous, and it applies to pretty much every kind of -ism in addition to feminism. huh? that's a really popular joke that people make all the time.
i don't make such jokes and I thought the homeland of these chokes is 4chan. outside of it i never heard anybody make a joke like that. cultural differences much?
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On March 19 2015 23:30 Hryul wrote:Show nested quote +On March 19 2015 23:15 Stratos_speAr wrote:On March 19 2015 23:08 Hryul wrote:On March 19 2015 23:06 Stratos_speAr wrote:On March 19 2015 22:56 Ghostcom wrote:On March 19 2015 22:51 Stratos_speAr wrote:On March 19 2015 15:53 xM(Z wrote:On March 19 2015 15:19 kwizach wrote:On March 19 2015 15:01 xM(Z wrote:On March 19 2015 14:29 kwizach wrote:[quote] I'm not sure you realize that nowhere in your post did you disprove the fact that feminism is first and foremost about wanting equality between the sexes on the political, economical and social levels. Your extremely incomplete list of prominent first and second waves feminist thinkers certainly did not disprove it, and your cherry-picking of a few quotes on one feminist organization's website didn't disprove it (in fact, if you take a look at that organization's "what we want" section, you'll see that what they declare they want is precisely equality between the sexes). It's one thing to disagree with the kind of "us vs them" mentality they're pushing forward on their website, but that doesn't change the fact that the ultimate objective is equality. Likewise, I'm not sure where you got the idea that the use of concepts like that of "patriarchy" was somehow antithetical to a desire to achieve equality - precisely by fighting against patriarchal systems. Like Stratos_speAr rightly said, feminism is defined as "the belief that men and women should have equal rights and opportunities", "the theory of the political, economic, and social equality of the sexes", etc. You're free to disagree with whatever feminist authors and organizations you want, but that doesn't change the fact that the core objective of feminism is to achieve equality between the sexes. I'm not sure the thread's original post warrants transforming this thread into a discussion about what feminism is and isn't, though - this is supposed to be a thread about sexist harassment in video games. the second definition of the word in that dictionary ( which you conveniently left out) is: "organized activity in support of women's rights and interests". that doesn't sound to equal to me. i just can't believe feminism is about equality just because it is called femi-n-ism. you can call it oversimplified misogyny but it's just basic logic for me. It is called feminism because women have historically been, as a group, denied the political, economical and social independence and legitimacy that men have enjoyed. The bulk of the movement has therefore been targeted at addressing the discriminations that women suffer from as women, in order to help them have the same rights and opportunities as men. This doesn't mean that men aren't also affected by, for example, stereotypical gender roles, but it does mean that it is women and not men who have historically and presently been put in a subordinate position because of their gender in patriarchal systems. Since feminism is about achieving equality, though, you'll find plenty of feminist scholars and activists also deconstructing and fighting against discriminations and negative gender roles that apply to men. i have no problem with women having their own movement that deals with women issues, called feminism but every time i see a dude like you pushing the 'woman-man' equality agenda over and over and over i can't help but see you strapping on some C4 and randomly start blowing men up just because ... fuck it and why not; Ex: in a random community, there's like 50 men and 30 women(thing which is totally against the QUOTA) so 20 men must die to achieve equality. you are a scary extremist. it's just how you look to me. The fact that you see feminism as extreme and an attack on you is a -You- problem. In other words, it's entirely your fault for having this radical perception of feminism where there are plenty of feminists that don't approach it like that at all. Considering that a majority (referencing the huffingtonpost article here) considers feminism extreme I would say it is an issue of feminism and not of any individual. There are plenty of feminists who actively fight against men trying to obtain equal rights to those of women for example in the justice system and especially when it comes to child custody laws. The no-true-Scotsmen argument of those feminists not being actual feminists is hilariously bad because why is your definition of feminism any more valid than theirs? Probably because I never said that they weren't feminists. If you want to accuse me of a logical fallacy, you should probably know what you're talking about. What I've been saying is that they aren't all feminists. You don't define a group by its radical parts, especially when there have been feminists critiquing other feminists for being too radical. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Feminism#Critique_of_feminism_and_anti-feminismNot only that, your interpretation of that HuffPost poll is ridiculously simplified. you are claiming the simplification without giving a better explanation. How about an explanation like almost everything else in the world? One that is actually slightly more nuanced? Not only can the public's perception of something hardly be taken to actually define it, but his interpretation does nothing to address the role of the media or other prominent figures/groups in shaping or distorting the public's image of feminism, and the media has been pretty harshly criticized on how it depicts feminism. To ignore those influences and just say, "it's an issue of feminism that so many think that feminism is extreme" is just lazy. Funny that you bring up the negative influence of media in the depiction of feminism. I just stumbled upon this tweet https://twitter.com/JessicaValenti/status/573592179286876160from Jessica Valenti. wiki: In 2011, The Guardian, where she works as a daily columnist, named Valenti as one of their "top 100 women" for her work to bring the feminist movement online. So this is a feminist working in the media.
are you intentionally being obtuse about this?? Because that's the only way I could see someone taking an obvious joke, with a hash tag linking to other jokes playing on chores, bondage, and sex, and think ~miSanDarY~
I would like to think that a proud MRA activist would call someone an idiot too if they did the old back in the kitchen joke if for no other reason than being really really lazy and unimaginative
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On March 20 2015 01:28 Hryul wrote:Show nested quote +On March 20 2015 01:07 ComaDose wrote:On March 20 2015 00:42 xDaunt wrote:On March 20 2015 00:31 Hryul wrote:On March 20 2015 00:22 xDaunt wrote:On March 19 2015 23:54 ZasZ. wrote:On March 19 2015 23:30 Hryul wrote:On March 19 2015 23:15 Stratos_speAr wrote:On March 19 2015 23:08 Hryul wrote:On March 19 2015 23:06 Stratos_speAr wrote:[quote] Probably because I never said that they weren't feminists. If you want to accuse me of a logical fallacy, you should probably know what you're talking about. What I've been saying is that they aren't all feminists. You don't define a group by its radical parts, especially when there have been feminists critiquing other feminists for being too radical. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Feminism#Critique_of_feminism_and_anti-feminismNot only that, your interpretation of that HuffPost poll is ridiculously simplified. you are claiming the simplification without giving a better explanation. How about an explanation like almost everything else in the world? One that is actually slightly more nuanced? Not only can the public's perception of something hardly be taken to actually define it, but his interpretation does nothing to address the role of the media or other prominent figures/groups in shaping or distorting the public's image of feminism, and the media has been pretty harshly criticized on how it depicts feminism. To ignore those influences and just say, "it's an issue of feminism that so many think that feminism is extreme" is just lazy. Funny that you bring up the negative influence of media in the depiction of feminism. I just stumbled upon this tweet https://twitter.com/JessicaValenti/status/573592179286876160from Jessica Valenti. wiki: In 2011, The Guardian, where she works as a daily columnist, named Valenti as one of their "top 100 women" for her work to bring the feminist movement online. So this is a feminist working in the media. Context? I am not a feminist and have a general distaste for radical feminism, but taking individual tweets as gospel is a mistake many people are making nowadays. It could be a joke, satire, reference, or response to another tweet. I don't know anything about her, but my first inclination was to take it as a joke. me neither. i just was reading some blog about facebook's rules with hatespeech and twitter's new "easy" method to report tweets to authorities. Her tweet was mentioned. (german btw, i would link it otherwise) maybe it is a joke, but even then it's bad taste bordering misandry. she's comparing men to garbage and at the same time i read from stratos that "media" is slandering feminism. with internet being an irony-free zone is it really "media's" fault when tweets like that can so easily be mistaken as misandry? especially she as a journalist should know better. I agree. If a guy made some crack about his wife needing go to back to the kitchen, we all know what the response would be. The double standard is ridiculous, and it applies to pretty much every kind of -ism in addition to feminism. huh? that's a really popular joke that people make all the time. i don't make such jokes and I thought the homeland of these chokes is 4chan. outside of it i never heard anybody make a joke like that. cultural differences much?
Which joke? The "get back in the kitchen" joke?
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On March 20 2015 01:33 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On March 20 2015 01:28 Hryul wrote:On March 20 2015 01:07 ComaDose wrote:On March 20 2015 00:42 xDaunt wrote:On March 20 2015 00:31 Hryul wrote:On March 20 2015 00:22 xDaunt wrote:On March 19 2015 23:54 ZasZ. wrote:On March 19 2015 23:30 Hryul wrote:On March 19 2015 23:15 Stratos_speAr wrote:On March 19 2015 23:08 Hryul wrote:
[quote]
you are claiming the simplification without giving a better explanation. How about an explanation like almost everything else in the world? One that is actually slightly more nuanced? Not only can the public's perception of something hardly be taken to actually define it, but his interpretation does nothing to address the role of the media or other prominent figures/groups in shaping or distorting the public's image of feminism, and the media has been pretty harshly criticized on how it depicts feminism. To ignore those influences and just say, "it's an issue of feminism that so many think that feminism is extreme" is just lazy. Funny that you bring up the negative influence of media in the depiction of feminism. I just stumbled upon this tweet https://twitter.com/JessicaValenti/status/573592179286876160from Jessica Valenti. wiki: In 2011, The Guardian, where she works as a daily columnist, named Valenti as one of their "top 100 women" for her work to bring the feminist movement online. So this is a feminist working in the media. Context? I am not a feminist and have a general distaste for radical feminism, but taking individual tweets as gospel is a mistake many people are making nowadays. It could be a joke, satire, reference, or response to another tweet. I don't know anything about her, but my first inclination was to take it as a joke. me neither. i just was reading some blog about facebook's rules with hatespeech and twitter's new "easy" method to report tweets to authorities. Her tweet was mentioned. (german btw, i would link it otherwise) maybe it is a joke, but even then it's bad taste bordering misandry. she's comparing men to garbage and at the same time i read from stratos that "media" is slandering feminism. with internet being an irony-free zone is it really "media's" fault when tweets like that can so easily be mistaken as misandry? especially she as a journalist should know better. I agree. If a guy made some crack about his wife needing go to back to the kitchen, we all know what the response would be. The double standard is ridiculous, and it applies to pretty much every kind of -ism in addition to feminism. huh? that's a really popular joke that people make all the time. i don't make such jokes and I thought the homeland of these chokes is 4chan. outside of it i never heard anybody make a joke like that. cultural differences much? Which joke? The "get back in the kitchen" joke?
yes.
btw in agame now, sry
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On March 20 2015 01:36 Hryul wrote:Show nested quote +On March 20 2015 01:33 Plansix wrote:On March 20 2015 01:28 Hryul wrote:On March 20 2015 01:07 ComaDose wrote:On March 20 2015 00:42 xDaunt wrote:On March 20 2015 00:31 Hryul wrote:On March 20 2015 00:22 xDaunt wrote:On March 19 2015 23:54 ZasZ. wrote:On March 19 2015 23:30 Hryul wrote:On March 19 2015 23:15 Stratos_speAr wrote:
[quote]
How about an explanation like almost everything else in the world? One that is actually slightly more nuanced?
Not only can the public's perception of something hardly be taken to actually define it, but his interpretation does nothing to address the role of the media or other prominent figures/groups in shaping or distorting the public's image of feminism, and the media has been pretty harshly criticized on how it depicts feminism.
To ignore those influences and just say, "it's an issue of feminism that so many think that feminism is extreme" is just lazy.
Funny that you bring up the negative influence of media in the depiction of feminism. I just stumbled upon this tweet https://twitter.com/JessicaValenti/status/573592179286876160from Jessica Valenti. wiki: In 2011, The Guardian, where she works as a daily columnist, named Valenti as one of their "top 100 women" for her work to bring the feminist movement online. So this is a feminist working in the media. Context? I am not a feminist and have a general distaste for radical feminism, but taking individual tweets as gospel is a mistake many people are making nowadays. It could be a joke, satire, reference, or response to another tweet. I don't know anything about her, but my first inclination was to take it as a joke. me neither. i just was reading some blog about facebook's rules with hatespeech and twitter's new "easy" method to report tweets to authorities. Her tweet was mentioned. (german btw, i would link it otherwise) maybe it is a joke, but even then it's bad taste bordering misandry. she's comparing men to garbage and at the same time i read from stratos that "media" is slandering feminism. with internet being an irony-free zone is it really "media's" fault when tweets like that can so easily be mistaken as misandry? especially she as a journalist should know better. I agree. If a guy made some crack about his wife needing go to back to the kitchen, we all know what the response would be. The double standard is ridiculous, and it applies to pretty much every kind of -ism in addition to feminism. huh? that's a really popular joke that people make all the time. i don't make such jokes and I thought the homeland of these chokes is 4chan. outside of it i never heard anybody make a joke like that. cultural differences much? Which joke? The "get back in the kitchen" joke? yes. btw in agame now, sry
That is a super common joke in the states and people make it all the time. It made ironically and clearly no one who makes the joke thinks women belong in the kitchen. If they did, it wouldn't be a joke.
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On March 20 2015 00:42 xDaunt wrote:Show nested quote +On March 20 2015 00:31 Hryul wrote:On March 20 2015 00:22 xDaunt wrote:On March 19 2015 23:54 ZasZ. wrote:On March 19 2015 23:30 Hryul wrote:On March 19 2015 23:15 Stratos_speAr wrote:On March 19 2015 23:08 Hryul wrote:On March 19 2015 23:06 Stratos_speAr wrote:On March 19 2015 22:56 Ghostcom wrote:On March 19 2015 22:51 Stratos_speAr wrote:
[quote]
The fact that you see feminism as extreme and an attack on you is a -You- problem. In other words, it's entirely your fault for having this radical perception of feminism where there are plenty of feminists that don't approach it like that at all. Considering that a majority (referencing the huffingtonpost article here) considers feminism extreme I would say it is an issue of feminism and not of any individual. There are plenty of feminists who actively fight against men trying to obtain equal rights to those of women for example in the justice system and especially when it comes to child custody laws. The no-true-Scotsmen argument of those feminists not being actual feminists is hilariously bad because why is your definition of feminism any more valid than theirs? Probably because I never said that they weren't feminists. If you want to accuse me of a logical fallacy, you should probably know what you're talking about. What I've been saying is that they aren't all feminists. You don't define a group by its radical parts, especially when there have been feminists critiquing other feminists for being too radical. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Feminism#Critique_of_feminism_and_anti-feminismNot only that, your interpretation of that HuffPost poll is ridiculously simplified. you are claiming the simplification without giving a better explanation. How about an explanation like almost everything else in the world? One that is actually slightly more nuanced? Not only can the public's perception of something hardly be taken to actually define it, but his interpretation does nothing to address the role of the media or other prominent figures/groups in shaping or distorting the public's image of feminism, and the media has been pretty harshly criticized on how it depicts feminism. To ignore those influences and just say, "it's an issue of feminism that so many think that feminism is extreme" is just lazy. Funny that you bring up the negative influence of media in the depiction of feminism. I just stumbled upon this tweet https://twitter.com/JessicaValenti/status/573592179286876160from Jessica Valenti. wiki: In 2011, The Guardian, where she works as a daily columnist, named Valenti as one of their "top 100 women" for her work to bring the feminist movement online. So this is a feminist working in the media. Context? I am not a feminist and have a general distaste for radical feminism, but taking individual tweets as gospel is a mistake many people are making nowadays. It could be a joke, satire, reference, or response to another tweet. I don't know anything about her, but my first inclination was to take it as a joke. me neither. i just was reading some blog about facebook's rules with hatespeech and twitter's new "easy" method to report tweets to authorities. Her tweet was mentioned. (german btw, i would link it otherwise) maybe it is a joke, but even then it's bad taste bordering misandry. she's comparing men to garbage and at the same time i read from stratos that "media" is slandering feminism. with internet being an irony-free zone is it really "media's" fault when tweets like that can so easily be mistaken as misandry? especially she as a journalist should know better. I agree. If a guy made some crack about his wife needing go to back to the kitchen, we all know what the response would be. The double standard is ridiculous, and it applies to pretty much every kind of -ism in addition to feminism.
Not all standards are created equal, I'm afraid. There is a marked difference between joking about the misfortunes of a "marginalized" group versus a "privileged" group. I.e. punching up or punching down. A joke is only harmless if the butt of the joke can see the humor in it. If there was ever any humor in the "get back in the kitchen," joke, it's long gone and now it is a clear symbol of sexism. We haven't gotten to that point with jokes about men yet, and when we have mainly female politicians and CEOs, maybe these jokes will be in bad taste as well.
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On March 20 2015 01:48 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On March 20 2015 01:36 Hryul wrote:On March 20 2015 01:33 Plansix wrote:On March 20 2015 01:28 Hryul wrote:On March 20 2015 01:07 ComaDose wrote:On March 20 2015 00:42 xDaunt wrote:On March 20 2015 00:31 Hryul wrote:On March 20 2015 00:22 xDaunt wrote:On March 19 2015 23:54 ZasZ. wrote:On March 19 2015 23:30 Hryul wrote:[quote] Funny that you bring up the negative influence of media in the depiction of feminism. I just stumbled upon this tweet https://twitter.com/JessicaValenti/status/573592179286876160from Jessica Valenti. wiki: In 2011, The Guardian, where she works as a daily columnist, named Valenti as one of their "top 100 women" for her work to bring the feminist movement online. So this is a feminist working in the media. Context? I am not a feminist and have a general distaste for radical feminism, but taking individual tweets as gospel is a mistake many people are making nowadays. It could be a joke, satire, reference, or response to another tweet. I don't know anything about her, but my first inclination was to take it as a joke. me neither. i just was reading some blog about facebook's rules with hatespeech and twitter's new "easy" method to report tweets to authorities. Her tweet was mentioned. (german btw, i would link it otherwise) maybe it is a joke, but even then it's bad taste bordering misandry. she's comparing men to garbage and at the same time i read from stratos that "media" is slandering feminism. with internet being an irony-free zone is it really "media's" fault when tweets like that can so easily be mistaken as misandry? especially she as a journalist should know better. I agree. If a guy made some crack about his wife needing go to back to the kitchen, we all know what the response would be. The double standard is ridiculous, and it applies to pretty much every kind of -ism in addition to feminism. huh? that's a really popular joke that people make all the time. i don't make such jokes and I thought the homeland of these chokes is 4chan. outside of it i never heard anybody make a joke like that. cultural differences much? Which joke? The "get back in the kitchen" joke? yes. btw in agame now, sry That is a super common joke in the states and people make it all the time. It made ironically and clearly no one who makes the joke thinks women belong in the kitchen. If they did, it wouldn't be a joke.
it's strange. I would never make such a comment towards women and @ quantichawk I wasn't aware that there is a whole hashtag behind this, but I perceive this as offensive. comparing men to garbage and not even allowing them inside the house. the joke is totally lost on me.
but hey, that's just like my opinion. i'm sure she intended it to be totally funny and not chauvinistic.
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On March 20 2015 01:56 Hryul wrote:Show nested quote +On March 20 2015 01:48 Plansix wrote:On March 20 2015 01:36 Hryul wrote:On March 20 2015 01:33 Plansix wrote:On March 20 2015 01:28 Hryul wrote:On March 20 2015 01:07 ComaDose wrote:On March 20 2015 00:42 xDaunt wrote:On March 20 2015 00:31 Hryul wrote:On March 20 2015 00:22 xDaunt wrote:On March 19 2015 23:54 ZasZ. wrote:
[quote]
Context? I am not a feminist and have a general distaste for radical feminism, but taking individual tweets as gospel is a mistake many people are making nowadays. It could be a joke, satire, reference, or response to another tweet. I don't know anything about her, but my first inclination was to take it as a joke. me neither. i just was reading some blog about facebook's rules with hatespeech and twitter's new "easy" method to report tweets to authorities. Her tweet was mentioned. (german btw, i would link it otherwise) maybe it is a joke, but even then it's bad taste bordering misandry. she's comparing men to garbage and at the same time i read from stratos that "media" is slandering feminism. with internet being an irony-free zone is it really "media's" fault when tweets like that can so easily be mistaken as misandry? especially she as a journalist should know better. I agree. If a guy made some crack about his wife needing go to back to the kitchen, we all know what the response would be. The double standard is ridiculous, and it applies to pretty much every kind of -ism in addition to feminism. huh? that's a really popular joke that people make all the time. i don't make such jokes and I thought the homeland of these chokes is 4chan. outside of it i never heard anybody make a joke like that. cultural differences much? Which joke? The "get back in the kitchen" joke? yes. btw in agame now, sry That is a super common joke in the states and people make it all the time. It made ironically and clearly no one who makes the joke thinks women belong in the kitchen. If they did, it wouldn't be a joke. it's strange. I would never make such a comment towards women and @ quantichawk I wasn't aware that there is a whole hashtag behind this, but I perceive this as offensive. comparing men to garbage and not even allowing them inside the house. the joke is totally lost on me. but hey, that's just like my opinion. i'm sure she intended it to be totally funny and not chauvinistic.
You well within your right to find it offensive. But I would also point out that no one is making the joke directly at you. The person is making it to their followers on social media and we can assume that they followed the person for that reason. Off color jokes are fine as long as they are only going to an intended audience and not being directed at someone who does not want to hear them.
Of course when the person is super famous(like Robert Downey Jr. level), that applies less and less because they are not really in control of who their incidence is on the internet. But if you follow a comedian you can expect an off color joke every once and a while.
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On March 20 2015 01:48 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On March 20 2015 01:36 Hryul wrote:On March 20 2015 01:33 Plansix wrote:On March 20 2015 01:28 Hryul wrote:On March 20 2015 01:07 ComaDose wrote:On March 20 2015 00:42 xDaunt wrote:On March 20 2015 00:31 Hryul wrote:On March 20 2015 00:22 xDaunt wrote:On March 19 2015 23:54 ZasZ. wrote:On March 19 2015 23:30 Hryul wrote:[quote] Funny that you bring up the negative influence of media in the depiction of feminism. I just stumbled upon this tweet https://twitter.com/JessicaValenti/status/573592179286876160from Jessica Valenti. wiki: In 2011, The Guardian, where she works as a daily columnist, named Valenti as one of their "top 100 women" for her work to bring the feminist movement online. So this is a feminist working in the media. Context? I am not a feminist and have a general distaste for radical feminism, but taking individual tweets as gospel is a mistake many people are making nowadays. It could be a joke, satire, reference, or response to another tweet. I don't know anything about her, but my first inclination was to take it as a joke. me neither. i just was reading some blog about facebook's rules with hatespeech and twitter's new "easy" method to report tweets to authorities. Her tweet was mentioned. (german btw, i would link it otherwise) maybe it is a joke, but even then it's bad taste bordering misandry. she's comparing men to garbage and at the same time i read from stratos that "media" is slandering feminism. with internet being an irony-free zone is it really "media's" fault when tweets like that can so easily be mistaken as misandry? especially she as a journalist should know better. I agree. If a guy made some crack about his wife needing go to back to the kitchen, we all know what the response would be. The double standard is ridiculous, and it applies to pretty much every kind of -ism in addition to feminism. huh? that's a really popular joke that people make all the time. i don't make such jokes and I thought the homeland of these chokes is 4chan. outside of it i never heard anybody make a joke like that. cultural differences much? Which joke? The "get back in the kitchen" joke? yes. btw in agame now, sry That is a super common joke in the states and people make it all the time. It made ironically and clearly no one who makes the joke thinks women belong in the kitchen. If they did, it wouldn't be a joke.
that's just like, not true. people DO think women belong in the kitchen. women spend a lot of time in the kitchen. doing things for men.
men, on the other hand, don't really tend to be tied up and kept outside. but jessica valenti can tie me up in the yard any day, that's hot
edit: I just want to say, I'm a guy who spends a lot of time in seminar having "feminists" yell at him. but you guys are being immature and reactionary
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On March 19 2015 23:26 Ghostcom wrote:Show nested quote +On March 19 2015 23:15 Stratos_speAr wrote:On March 19 2015 23:08 Hryul wrote:On March 19 2015 23:06 Stratos_speAr wrote:On March 19 2015 22:56 Ghostcom wrote:On March 19 2015 22:51 Stratos_speAr wrote:On March 19 2015 15:53 xM(Z wrote:On March 19 2015 15:19 kwizach wrote:On March 19 2015 15:01 xM(Z wrote:On March 19 2015 14:29 kwizach wrote:[quote] I'm not sure you realize that nowhere in your post did you disprove the fact that feminism is first and foremost about wanting equality between the sexes on the political, economical and social levels. Your extremely incomplete list of prominent first and second waves feminist thinkers certainly did not disprove it, and your cherry-picking of a few quotes on one feminist organization's website didn't disprove it (in fact, if you take a look at that organization's "what we want" section, you'll see that what they declare they want is precisely equality between the sexes). It's one thing to disagree with the kind of "us vs them" mentality they're pushing forward on their website, but that doesn't change the fact that the ultimate objective is equality. Likewise, I'm not sure where you got the idea that the use of concepts like that of "patriarchy" was somehow antithetical to a desire to achieve equality - precisely by fighting against patriarchal systems. Like Stratos_speAr rightly said, feminism is defined as "the belief that men and women should have equal rights and opportunities", "the theory of the political, economic, and social equality of the sexes", etc. You're free to disagree with whatever feminist authors and organizations you want, but that doesn't change the fact that the core objective of feminism is to achieve equality between the sexes. I'm not sure the thread's original post warrants transforming this thread into a discussion about what feminism is and isn't, though - this is supposed to be a thread about sexist harassment in video games. the second definition of the word in that dictionary ( which you conveniently left out) is: "organized activity in support of women's rights and interests". that doesn't sound to equal to me. i just can't believe feminism is about equality just because it is called femi-n-ism. you can call it oversimplified misogyny but it's just basic logic for me. It is called feminism because women have historically been, as a group, denied the political, economical and social independence and legitimacy that men have enjoyed. The bulk of the movement has therefore been targeted at addressing the discriminations that women suffer from as women, in order to help them have the same rights and opportunities as men. This doesn't mean that men aren't also affected by, for example, stereotypical gender roles, but it does mean that it is women and not men who have historically and presently been put in a subordinate position because of their gender in patriarchal systems. Since feminism is about achieving equality, though, you'll find plenty of feminist scholars and activists also deconstructing and fighting against discriminations and negative gender roles that apply to men. i have no problem with women having their own movement that deals with women issues, called feminism but every time i see a dude like you pushing the 'woman-man' equality agenda over and over and over i can't help but see you strapping on some C4 and randomly start blowing men up just because ... fuck it and why not; Ex: in a random community, there's like 50 men and 30 women(thing which is totally against the QUOTA) so 20 men must die to achieve equality. you are a scary extremist. it's just how you look to me. The fact that you see feminism as extreme and an attack on you is a -You- problem. In other words, it's entirely your fault for having this radical perception of feminism where there are plenty of feminists that don't approach it like that at all. Considering that a majority (referencing the huffingtonpost article here) considers feminism extreme I would say it is an issue of feminism and not of any individual. There are plenty of feminists who actively fight against men trying to obtain equal rights to those of women for example in the justice system and especially when it comes to child custody laws. The no-true-Scotsmen argument of those feminists not being actual feminists is hilariously bad because why is your definition of feminism any more valid than theirs? Probably because I never said that they weren't feminists. If you want to accuse me of a logical fallacy, you should probably know what you're talking about. What I've been saying is that they aren't all feminists. You don't define a group by its radical parts, especially when there have been feminists critiquing other feminists for being too radical. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Feminism#Critique_of_feminism_and_anti-feminismNot only that, your interpretation of that HuffPost poll is ridiculously simplified. you are claiming the simplification without giving a better explanation. How about an explanation like almost everything else in the world? One that is actually slightly more nuanced? Not only can the public's perception of something hardly be taken to actually define it, but his interpretation does nothing to address the role of the media or other prominent figures/groups in shaping or distorting the public's image of feminism, and the media has been pretty harshly criticized on how it depicts feminism. To ignore those influences and just say, "it's an issue of feminism that so many think that feminism is extreme" is just lazy. And not all gamers are harassing women, but for some reason the entire gaming community is toxic... Please tell me why one group should be defined by it's radicals whilst the other shouldn't? And what is your interpretation of the HuffPost poll? I don't really see a lot of people here arguing that the entire gaming community is toxic. I definitely am not. In fact, I've been arguing the opposite, repeatedly saying that not every game has to be changed to depict everyone a certain way or that every community is bad, but that the overall trend is negative. You are such a hypocrite. You make xM(Z solely responsible for his perception of feminism, yet you absolve feminism for all responsibility of how it is being perceived. If you are going to blame the media for how feminism is being perceived, shouldn't that absolve xM(Z? But oh no, that was entirely on him. And in a post above yours, a poster is arguing that ALL men are sexists, no matter what they do. Yet I don't see him arguing that EVERY woman is sexist because they are not actively fighting for mens rights to for example child custody.
News corporations are the producers, individuals are the consumers. They both bear responsibility in a different way. This isn't a very hard concept to grasp. Instead of getting all reactionary and defensive and yelling out "HYPOCRITE!", take a second to actually comprehend what I'm saying.
And no, he wasn't arguing that all men are sexist. He was stating that if you do nothing and benefit from an unjust system, you are part of the problem, which is 100% correct. If you actively benefit from a sexist/racist/homophobic/whatever system that oppresses a group of people, then you are part of the problem because you are tacitly enabling that system to continue to exist. If you don't like it, then tough luck. You need to take responsibility for your actions. As with his example, you couldn't just hop into a "whites only" line, getting into something much more quickly, and then get all upset when someone calls you out on perpetuating the system because that's exactly what you're doing.
I agree. If a guy made some crack about his wife needing go to back to the kitchen, we all know what the response would be. The double standard is ridiculous, and it applies to pretty much every kind of -ism in addition to feminism.
Why yes, that is how the world works. When a group has actually experienced oppression, it's quite a bit different to make an insensitive joke about them than it is to make an insensitive joke about the group that was in power. This is a double standard and it's perfectly justified, because we don't live in some fairy tale world devoid of context where everything is just magically equal from square zero. That's a naive world view that doesn't take into account the centuries of context that go into the relationships between groups of people.
Even with that in mind, there are still plenty of sarcastic jokes about women and their role in society, as several people have mentioned. "Get back in the kitchen" or other variations on a "women's place in the world" are still pretty popular jokes.
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On March 20 2015 02:01 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On March 20 2015 01:56 Hryul wrote:On March 20 2015 01:48 Plansix wrote:On March 20 2015 01:36 Hryul wrote:On March 20 2015 01:33 Plansix wrote:On March 20 2015 01:28 Hryul wrote:On March 20 2015 01:07 ComaDose wrote:On March 20 2015 00:42 xDaunt wrote:On March 20 2015 00:31 Hryul wrote:On March 20 2015 00:22 xDaunt wrote:
[quote]
I don't know anything about her, but my first inclination was to take it as a joke. me neither. i just was reading some blog about facebook's rules with hatespeech and twitter's new "easy" method to report tweets to authorities. Her tweet was mentioned. (german btw, i would link it otherwise) maybe it is a joke, but even then it's bad taste bordering misandry. she's comparing men to garbage and at the same time i read from stratos that "media" is slandering feminism. with internet being an irony-free zone is it really "media's" fault when tweets like that can so easily be mistaken as misandry? especially she as a journalist should know better. I agree. If a guy made some crack about his wife needing go to back to the kitchen, we all know what the response would be. The double standard is ridiculous, and it applies to pretty much every kind of -ism in addition to feminism. huh? that's a really popular joke that people make all the time. i don't make such jokes and I thought the homeland of these chokes is 4chan. outside of it i never heard anybody make a joke like that. cultural differences much? Which joke? The "get back in the kitchen" joke? yes. btw in agame now, sry That is a super common joke in the states and people make it all the time. It made ironically and clearly no one who makes the joke thinks women belong in the kitchen. If they did, it wouldn't be a joke. it's strange. I would never make such a comment towards women and @ quantichawk I wasn't aware that there is a whole hashtag behind this, but I perceive this as offensive. comparing men to garbage and not even allowing them inside the house. the joke is totally lost on me. but hey, that's just like my opinion. i'm sure she intended it to be totally funny and not chauvinistic. You well within your right to find it offensive. But I would also point out that no one is making the joke directly at you. The person is making it to their followers on social media and we can assume that they followed the person for that reason. Off color jokes are fine as long as they are only going to an intended audience and not being directed at someone who does not want to hear them. Of course when the person is super famous(like Robert Downey Jr. level), that applies less and less because they are not really in control of who their incidence is on the internet. But if you follow a comedian you can expect an off color joke every once and a while.
I'm not "offended" by it like "ehrmagod fire her!!", but I do think it is problematic. Furthermore this is also not how it works: a PR worker got fired because she made a racial joke on twitter which magnified into a shitstorm while she was flying to south africa.
so no, you don't have some "public privacy" where jokes are ok, as long as you're not super famous. if you post something on twitter it is public period. and you are responsible for it.
and the point i was trying to make was an entire other: stratos spear was attacking "the media" for portraying "feminism" the wrong way. Now I dug up an example of a woman who should be an example of equality feminism.
she is in a position of power through her writing for the guardian and she should make a prime example for her kind.
yet she is making chauvinistic jokes about men.
So it isn't the media portraying feminism wrong but feminists themselves (even those who should know better) make it easy to attack them.
and as ninazerg showed, there are problematic tendencies within feminism since at least 2nd wave. but hey, better blame it on the system media instead of taking care of them yourself.
edit: stratos: are you arguing that i should find this joke ok, because you assume i was never oppressed by a woman?
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On March 20 2015 03:01 Hryul wrote:Show nested quote +On March 20 2015 02:01 Plansix wrote:On March 20 2015 01:56 Hryul wrote:On March 20 2015 01:48 Plansix wrote:On March 20 2015 01:36 Hryul wrote:On March 20 2015 01:33 Plansix wrote:On March 20 2015 01:28 Hryul wrote:On March 20 2015 01:07 ComaDose wrote:On March 20 2015 00:42 xDaunt wrote:On March 20 2015 00:31 Hryul wrote:
[quote]
me neither. i just was reading some blog about facebook's rules with hatespeech and twitter's new "easy" method to report tweets to authorities. Her tweet was mentioned. (german btw, i would link it otherwise)
maybe it is a joke, but even then it's bad taste bordering misandry.
she's comparing men to garbage and at the same time i read from stratos that "media" is slandering feminism. with internet being an irony-free zone is it really "media's" fault when tweets like that can so easily be mistaken as misandry? especially she as a journalist should know better. I agree. If a guy made some crack about his wife needing go to back to the kitchen, we all know what the response would be. The double standard is ridiculous, and it applies to pretty much every kind of -ism in addition to feminism. huh? that's a really popular joke that people make all the time. i don't make such jokes and I thought the homeland of these chokes is 4chan. outside of it i never heard anybody make a joke like that. cultural differences much? Which joke? The "get back in the kitchen" joke? yes. btw in agame now, sry That is a super common joke in the states and people make it all the time. It made ironically and clearly no one who makes the joke thinks women belong in the kitchen. If they did, it wouldn't be a joke. it's strange. I would never make such a comment towards women and @ quantichawk I wasn't aware that there is a whole hashtag behind this, but I perceive this as offensive. comparing men to garbage and not even allowing them inside the house. the joke is totally lost on me. but hey, that's just like my opinion. i'm sure she intended it to be totally funny and not chauvinistic. You well within your right to find it offensive. But I would also point out that no one is making the joke directly at you. The person is making it to their followers on social media and we can assume that they followed the person for that reason. Off color jokes are fine as long as they are only going to an intended audience and not being directed at someone who does not want to hear them. Of course when the person is super famous(like Robert Downey Jr. level), that applies less and less because they are not really in control of who their incidence is on the internet. But if you follow a comedian you can expect an off color joke every once and a while. I'm not "offended" by it like "ehrmagod fire her!!", but I do think it is problematic. Furthermore this is also not how it works: a PR worker got fired because she made a racial joke on twitter which magnified into a shitstorm while she was flying to south africa. so no, you don't have some "public privacy" where jokes are ok, as long as you're not super famous. if you post something on twitter it is public period. and you are responsible for it. and the point i was trying to make was an entire other: stratos spear was attacking "the media" for portraying "feminism" the wrong way. Now I dug up an example of a woman who should be an example of equality feminism. she is in a position of power through her writing for the guardian and she should make a prime example for her kind. yet she is making chauvinistic jokes about men. So it isn't the media portraying feminism wrong but feminists themselves (even those who should know better) make it easy to attack them. and as ninazerg showed, there are problematic tendencies within feminism since at least 2nd wave. but hey, better blame it on the system media instead of taking care of them yourself. edit: stratos: are you arguing that i should find this joke ok, because you assume i was never oppressed by a woman?
The ideal world would be where everyone can make jokes about one another and everyone can understand they are joking. I am sure if pressed she would say "No, I don't want to tie anyone up outside my house, man or woman." It is completely ridiculous to put anyone who identifies as a feminist up on some divine pedestal and demand they act as this shining example at all time. If you want to take stuff like that deadly seriously, that your choice. I am a man and I am not offended in the least. I often make jokes about my "feminist overlords" on both twitter and in person. It does not mean I want to oppress men or I am advocating for it. And I am sure if I spent a few minutes on twitter I could find some amazing things by folks who prominent advocate for mens rights that is equally as offensive, if not more so.
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On March 20 2015 03:01 Hryul wrote:Show nested quote +On March 20 2015 02:01 Plansix wrote:On March 20 2015 01:56 Hryul wrote:On March 20 2015 01:48 Plansix wrote:On March 20 2015 01:36 Hryul wrote:On March 20 2015 01:33 Plansix wrote:On March 20 2015 01:28 Hryul wrote:On March 20 2015 01:07 ComaDose wrote:On March 20 2015 00:42 xDaunt wrote:On March 20 2015 00:31 Hryul wrote:
[quote]
me neither. i just was reading some blog about facebook's rules with hatespeech and twitter's new "easy" method to report tweets to authorities. Her tweet was mentioned. (german btw, i would link it otherwise)
maybe it is a joke, but even then it's bad taste bordering misandry.
she's comparing men to garbage and at the same time i read from stratos that "media" is slandering feminism. with internet being an irony-free zone is it really "media's" fault when tweets like that can so easily be mistaken as misandry? especially she as a journalist should know better. I agree. If a guy made some crack about his wife needing go to back to the kitchen, we all know what the response would be. The double standard is ridiculous, and it applies to pretty much every kind of -ism in addition to feminism. huh? that's a really popular joke that people make all the time. i don't make such jokes and I thought the homeland of these chokes is 4chan. outside of it i never heard anybody make a joke like that. cultural differences much? Which joke? The "get back in the kitchen" joke? yes. btw in agame now, sry That is a super common joke in the states and people make it all the time. It made ironically and clearly no one who makes the joke thinks women belong in the kitchen. If they did, it wouldn't be a joke. it's strange. I would never make such a comment towards women and @ quantichawk I wasn't aware that there is a whole hashtag behind this, but I perceive this as offensive. comparing men to garbage and not even allowing them inside the house. the joke is totally lost on me. but hey, that's just like my opinion. i'm sure she intended it to be totally funny and not chauvinistic. You well within your right to find it offensive. But I would also point out that no one is making the joke directly at you. The person is making it to their followers on social media and we can assume that they followed the person for that reason. Off color jokes are fine as long as they are only going to an intended audience and not being directed at someone who does not want to hear them. Of course when the person is super famous(like Robert Downey Jr. level), that applies less and less because they are not really in control of who their incidence is on the internet. But if you follow a comedian you can expect an off color joke every once and a while. I'm not "offended" by it like "ehrmagod fire her!!", but I do think it is problematic. Furthermore this is also not how it works: a PR worker got fired because she made a racial joke on twitter which magnified into a shitstorm while she was flying to south africa. so no, you don't have some "public privacy" where jokes are ok, as long as you're not super famous. if you post something on twitter it is public period. and you are responsible for it. and the point i was trying to make was an entire other: stratos spear was attacking "the media" for portraying "feminism" the wrong way. Now I dug up an example of a woman who should be an example of equality feminism. she is in a position of power through her writing for the guardian and she should make a prime example for her kind. yet she is making chauvinistic jokes about men. So it isn't the media portraying feminism wrong but feminists themselves (even those who should know better) make it easy to attack them. and as ninazerg showed, there are problematic tendencies within feminism since at least 2nd wave. but hey, better blame it on the system media instead of taking care of them yourself. edit: stratos: are you arguing that i should find this joke ok, because you assume i was never oppressed by a woman?
No, I'm arguing that it's OK for there to be different standards for insensitive jokes about certain groups because the context surrounding those groups and jokes are different.
Oh, and as I pointed out, plenty of feminists DO criticize overly radical feminists and call them out on their craziness.
This discussion reminds me of Fox News saying, "Where are all the Muslims denouncing radical Islamists?!" and then the rest of the world points to the dozens of instances where plenty of Muslims DO condemn radical Islam and yet they're ignored because they don't fit Fox's narrative.
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