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On March 20 2015 03:16 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On March 20 2015 03:01 Hryul wrote:On March 20 2015 02:01 Plansix wrote:On March 20 2015 01:56 Hryul wrote:On March 20 2015 01:48 Plansix wrote:On March 20 2015 01:36 Hryul wrote:On March 20 2015 01:33 Plansix wrote:On March 20 2015 01:28 Hryul wrote:On March 20 2015 01:07 ComaDose wrote:On March 20 2015 00:42 xDaunt wrote:
[quote]
I agree. If a guy made some crack about his wife needing go to back to the kitchen, we all know what the response would be. The double standard is ridiculous, and it applies to pretty much every kind of -ism in addition to feminism. huh? that's a really popular joke that people make all the time. i don't make such jokes and I thought the homeland of these chokes is 4chan. outside of it i never heard anybody make a joke like that. cultural differences much? Which joke? The "get back in the kitchen" joke? yes. btw in agame now, sry That is a super common joke in the states and people make it all the time. It made ironically and clearly no one who makes the joke thinks women belong in the kitchen. If they did, it wouldn't be a joke. it's strange. I would never make such a comment towards women and @ quantichawk I wasn't aware that there is a whole hashtag behind this, but I perceive this as offensive. comparing men to garbage and not even allowing them inside the house. the joke is totally lost on me. but hey, that's just like my opinion. i'm sure she intended it to be totally funny and not chauvinistic. You well within your right to find it offensive. But I would also point out that no one is making the joke directly at you. The person is making it to their followers on social media and we can assume that they followed the person for that reason. Off color jokes are fine as long as they are only going to an intended audience and not being directed at someone who does not want to hear them. Of course when the person is super famous(like Robert Downey Jr. level), that applies less and less because they are not really in control of who their incidence is on the internet. But if you follow a comedian you can expect an off color joke every once and a while. I'm not "offended" by it like "ehrmagod fire her!!", but I do think it is problematic. Furthermore this is also not how it works: a PR worker got fired because she made a racial joke on twitter which magnified into a shitstorm while she was flying to south africa. so no, you don't have some "public privacy" where jokes are ok, as long as you're not super famous. if you post something on twitter it is public period. and you are responsible for it. and the point i was trying to make was an entire other: stratos spear was attacking "the media" for portraying "feminism" the wrong way. Now I dug up an example of a woman who should be an example of equality feminism. she is in a position of power through her writing for the guardian and she should make a prime example for her kind. yet she is making chauvinistic jokes about men. So it isn't the media portraying feminism wrong but feminists themselves (even those who should know better) make it easy to attack them. and as ninazerg showed, there are problematic tendencies within feminism since at least 2nd wave. but hey, better blame it on the system media instead of taking care of them yourself. edit: stratos: are you arguing that i should find this joke ok, because you assume i was never oppressed by a woman? The ideal world would be where everyone can make jokes about one another and everyone can understand they are joking. I am sure if pressed she would say "No, I don't want to tie anyone up outside my house, man or woman." It is completely ridiculous to put anyone who identifies as a feminist up on some divine pedestal and demand they act as this shining example at all time. If you want to take stuff like that deadly seriously, that your choice. I am a man and I am not offended in the least. I often make jokes about my "feminist overlords" on both twitter and in person. It does not mean I want to oppress men or I am advocating for it. And I am sure if I spent a few minutes on twitter I could find some amazing things by folks who prominent advocate for mens rights that is equally as offensive, if not more so.
is it really too much to ask from a person who wrote four books on feminism not to make such mindless jokes?
is this "putting them on a pedestal"? or is it holding them to their own standards? this is not some tumblr feminist this is a journalist working for the guardian.
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On March 20 2015 03:24 Hryul wrote:Show nested quote +On March 20 2015 03:16 Plansix wrote:On March 20 2015 03:01 Hryul wrote:On March 20 2015 02:01 Plansix wrote:On March 20 2015 01:56 Hryul wrote:On March 20 2015 01:48 Plansix wrote:On March 20 2015 01:36 Hryul wrote:On March 20 2015 01:33 Plansix wrote:On March 20 2015 01:28 Hryul wrote:On March 20 2015 01:07 ComaDose wrote:
[quote]
huh? that's a really popular joke that people make all the time. i don't make such jokes and I thought the homeland of these chokes is 4chan. outside of it i never heard anybody make a joke like that. cultural differences much? Which joke? The "get back in the kitchen" joke? yes. btw in agame now, sry That is a super common joke in the states and people make it all the time. It made ironically and clearly no one who makes the joke thinks women belong in the kitchen. If they did, it wouldn't be a joke. it's strange. I would never make such a comment towards women and @ quantichawk I wasn't aware that there is a whole hashtag behind this, but I perceive this as offensive. comparing men to garbage and not even allowing them inside the house. the joke is totally lost on me. but hey, that's just like my opinion. i'm sure she intended it to be totally funny and not chauvinistic. You well within your right to find it offensive. But I would also point out that no one is making the joke directly at you. The person is making it to their followers on social media and we can assume that they followed the person for that reason. Off color jokes are fine as long as they are only going to an intended audience and not being directed at someone who does not want to hear them. Of course when the person is super famous(like Robert Downey Jr. level), that applies less and less because they are not really in control of who their incidence is on the internet. But if you follow a comedian you can expect an off color joke every once and a while. I'm not "offended" by it like "ehrmagod fire her!!", but I do think it is problematic. Furthermore this is also not how it works: a PR worker got fired because she made a racial joke on twitter which magnified into a shitstorm while she was flying to south africa. so no, you don't have some "public privacy" where jokes are ok, as long as you're not super famous. if you post something on twitter it is public period. and you are responsible for it. and the point i was trying to make was an entire other: stratos spear was attacking "the media" for portraying "feminism" the wrong way. Now I dug up an example of a woman who should be an example of equality feminism. she is in a position of power through her writing for the guardian and she should make a prime example for her kind. yet she is making chauvinistic jokes about men. So it isn't the media portraying feminism wrong but feminists themselves (even those who should know better) make it easy to attack them. and as ninazerg showed, there are problematic tendencies within feminism since at least 2nd wave. but hey, better blame it on the system media instead of taking care of them yourself. edit: stratos: are you arguing that i should find this joke ok, because you assume i was never oppressed by a woman? The ideal world would be where everyone can make jokes about one another and everyone can understand they are joking. I am sure if pressed she would say "No, I don't want to tie anyone up outside my house, man or woman." It is completely ridiculous to put anyone who identifies as a feminist up on some divine pedestal and demand they act as this shining example at all time. If you want to take stuff like that deadly seriously, that your choice. I am a man and I am not offended in the least. I often make jokes about my "feminist overlords" on both twitter and in person. It does not mean I want to oppress men or I am advocating for it. And I am sure if I spent a few minutes on twitter I could find some amazing things by folks who prominent advocate for mens rights that is equally as offensive, if not more so. is it really too much to ask from a person who wrote four books on feminism not to make such mindless jokes? is this "putting them on a pedestal"? or is it holding them to their own standards? this is not some tumblr feminist this is a journalist working for the guardian.
Yes, every once and a while people make jokes and they are funny. Some people do it for a living and also speak out on political issues, like John Steward. We would not have to look far for him saying something offensive about a specific group. People are not barred from making an off color joke just because they are also an activist and represent an issue. And obviously her employer is aware and still employs her, so clearly they got the joke.
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Well Jessica Valenti isn't really the best example of a person who makes the occasional off-color joke. She makes rather strong articles that more or less imply that men don't ever suffer from any real hardship, or that men only have to deal with "hurt feelings" when there are actually real issues that disproportionally affect men (jail time, child custody, not taken seriously as rape victims, and the draft). So I can understand why people tend to see her as a bad example of a feminist.
I do agree with the sentiment that the occasional joke is fine, though.
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Normally Hyrul I'd say despite whatever you think of someone and their politics, one joke tweet wouldn't be something to fret about, but I think you might be right in that it exposes a kind of internalized hypocrisy.
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On March 20 2015 03:40 Spawkuring wrote:
Well Jessica Valenti isn't really the best example of a person who makes the occasional off-color joke. She makes rather strong articles that more or less imply that men don't ever suffer from any real hardship, or that men only have to deal with "hurt feelings" when there are actually real issues that disproportionally affect men (jail time, child custody, not taken seriously as rape victims, and the draft). So I can understand why people tend to see her as a bad example of a feminist.
I do agree with the sentiment that the occasional joke is fine, though.
I find her to be a model example of what "feminists" are these days. And none of the feminists that I know find any kind of joke about women to be funny.
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I literally just read one of her articles on "hating men" and that feminists don't really hate men.
http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2015/mar/13/feminists-do-not-hate-men
She seems reasonable, if a little dismissive of the issues like jail time and child custody. But then again, she isn't saying men should seek better treatment on those issues either. She is just pointing out that if feminists were really out to repress men, they likely wouldn't do it with a bunch of funny cups that say "Male Tears". And she points out that men still hold the majority of power in the world, which isn't wrong.
You don't have to agree with her, but she isn't out there to get men or repress them. And she isn't saying that you can't advocate for issues like jail time, child custody, not taken seriously as rape victims, and the draft. I don't think there is a reasonable feminist who would ever say that rape of men isn't a very serious issue.
On March 20 2015 03:46 Uranium wrote:Show nested quote +On March 20 2015 03:40 Spawkuring wrote:
Well Jessica Valenti isn't really the best example of a person who makes the occasional off-color joke. She makes rather strong articles that more or less imply that men don't ever suffer from any real hardship, or that men only have to deal with "hurt feelings" when there are actually real issues that disproportionally affect men (jail time, child custody, not taken seriously as rape victims, and the draft). So I can understand why people tend to see her as a bad example of a feminist.
I do agree with the sentiment that the occasional joke is fine, though. I find her to be a model example of what "feminists" are these days. And none of the feminists that I know find any kind of joke about women to be funny.
I am in an area loaded with feminists, as Boston is one of their homelands, and they don't have a problem with my off color jokes about feminism or women. You might be telling the wrong jokes.
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Well I don't think that Jessica hates men or that feminists hate men, but she does show, which you also noticed, a somewhat dismissive attitude towards male issues. When you say "Besides, when women hate men, we hurt their feelings. When men hate women, they kill us", you're basically ignoring the large number of men who have been victims of domestic abuse, parental abuse, rape, and so on. That dismissiveness can be pretty alienating to a lot of people, especially those who have experienced it first-hand. It hasn't happened to me, but I can sympathize with people who've been a victim of hardship and don't like having that hardship handwaved away simply because some old white guys are in power.
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On March 20 2015 03:55 Spawkuring wrote:
Well I don't think that Jessica hates men or that feminists hate men, but she does show, which you also noticed, a somewhat dismissive attitude towards male issues. When you say "Besides, when women hate men, we hurt their feelings. When men hate women, they kill us", you're basically ignoring the large number of men who have been victims of domestic abuse, parental abuse, rape, and so on. That dismissiveness can be pretty alienating to a lot of people, especially those who have experienced it first-hand. It hasn't happened to me, but I can sympathize with people who've been a victim of hardship and don't like having that hardship handwaved away simply because some old white guys are in power.
One of the main issues behind that is that many “anti-feminist” use those specific issues to downplay the issues women face and distract from the discussion. You can see it going on over the course of this thread, where several people shifted the focus from issues women face in gaming to men. Many of the feminist I know have experienced this and I have as well.
That is why some feminist are dismissive, because those issues facing men do not diminish the issues women face in any way. They are separate and need to be dealt with separately. One is not more important than the other. And once again, no feminist I know would say you shouldn't advocate for it and they would likely support your effort to do so. But they are not going to stop talking about the issues women face so men can talk about theirs.
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On March 20 2015 04:02 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On March 20 2015 03:55 Spawkuring wrote:
Well I don't think that Jessica hates men or that feminists hate men, but she does show, which you also noticed, a somewhat dismissive attitude towards male issues. When you say "Besides, when women hate men, we hurt their feelings. When men hate women, they kill us", you're basically ignoring the large number of men who have been victims of domestic abuse, parental abuse, rape, and so on. That dismissiveness can be pretty alienating to a lot of people, especially those who have experienced it first-hand. It hasn't happened to me, but I can sympathize with people who've been a victim of hardship and don't like having that hardship handwaved away simply because some old white guys are in power. One of the main issues behind that is that many “anti-feminist” use those specific issues to downplay the issues women face and distract from the discussion. You can see it going on over the course of this thread, where several people shifted the focus from issues women face in gaming to men. Many of the feminist I know have experienced this and I have as well. That is why some feminist are dismissive, because those issues facing men do not diminish the issues women face in any way. They are separate and need to be dealt with separately. One is not more important than the other. And once again, no feminist I know would say you shouldn't advocate for it and they would likely support your effort to do so. But they are not going to stop talking about the issues women face so men can talk about theirs.
In that sense I agree.
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On March 20 2015 03:55 Spawkuring wrote:
Well I don't think that Jessica hates men or that feminists hate men, but she does show, which you also noticed, a somewhat dismissive attitude towards male issues. When you say "Besides, when women hate men, we hurt their feelings. When men hate women, they kill us", you're basically ignoring the large number of men who have been victims of domestic abuse, parental abuse, rape, and so on. That dismissiveness can be pretty alienating to a lot of people, especially those who have experienced it first-hand. It hasn't happened to me, but I can sympathize with people who've been a victim of hardship and don't like having that hardship handwaved away simply because some old white guys are in power.
I think the problem here is balance.
Feminists like Jessica need to realize that it is insulting to be so dismissive about male victims of rape, domestic abuse, disproportionate sentencing, unfair child custody rulings, and the draft. These are real issues that need addressing and get almost no voice whatsoever in public discourse.
However, anti-feminists also need to realize that it can be insulting to bring these up when the discussion is initially about the systematic oppression that women face. To many, it seems like a selfish attempt to make the conversation about men again. While the issues that males face aren't any less important, it can be demeaning to feminists when the group that is in power and has oppressed women tries to hijack the conversation and make it about themselves again.
Overall it seems to be a problem where each side is yelling past each other rather than engaging in discussion, especially since the vast majority of people on both sides agree that everything mentioned here by both sides is a problem.
Edit: Pretty much the exact same thing that Plansix said.
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On March 20 2015 03:21 Stratos_speAr wrote:Show nested quote +On March 20 2015 03:01 Hryul wrote:On March 20 2015 02:01 Plansix wrote:On March 20 2015 01:56 Hryul wrote:On March 20 2015 01:48 Plansix wrote:On March 20 2015 01:36 Hryul wrote:On March 20 2015 01:33 Plansix wrote:On March 20 2015 01:28 Hryul wrote:On March 20 2015 01:07 ComaDose wrote:On March 20 2015 00:42 xDaunt wrote:
[quote]
I agree. If a guy made some crack about his wife needing go to back to the kitchen, we all know what the response would be. The double standard is ridiculous, and it applies to pretty much every kind of -ism in addition to feminism. huh? that's a really popular joke that people make all the time. i don't make such jokes and I thought the homeland of these chokes is 4chan. outside of it i never heard anybody make a joke like that. cultural differences much? Which joke? The "get back in the kitchen" joke? yes. btw in agame now, sry That is a super common joke in the states and people make it all the time. It made ironically and clearly no one who makes the joke thinks women belong in the kitchen. If they did, it wouldn't be a joke. it's strange. I would never make such a comment towards women and @ quantichawk I wasn't aware that there is a whole hashtag behind this, but I perceive this as offensive. comparing men to garbage and not even allowing them inside the house. the joke is totally lost on me. but hey, that's just like my opinion. i'm sure she intended it to be totally funny and not chauvinistic. You well within your right to find it offensive. But I would also point out that no one is making the joke directly at you. The person is making it to their followers on social media and we can assume that they followed the person for that reason. Off color jokes are fine as long as they are only going to an intended audience and not being directed at someone who does not want to hear them. Of course when the person is super famous(like Robert Downey Jr. level), that applies less and less because they are not really in control of who their incidence is on the internet. But if you follow a comedian you can expect an off color joke every once and a while. I'm not "offended" by it like "ehrmagod fire her!!", but I do think it is problematic. Furthermore this is also not how it works: a PR worker got fired because she made a racial joke on twitter which magnified into a shitstorm while she was flying to south africa. so no, you don't have some "public privacy" where jokes are ok, as long as you're not super famous. if you post something on twitter it is public period. and you are responsible for it. and the point i was trying to make was an entire other: stratos spear was attacking "the media" for portraying "feminism" the wrong way. Now I dug up an example of a woman who should be an example of equality feminism. she is in a position of power through her writing for the guardian and she should make a prime example for her kind. yet she is making chauvinistic jokes about men. So it isn't the media portraying feminism wrong but feminists themselves (even those who should know better) make it easy to attack them. and as ninazerg showed, there are problematic tendencies within feminism since at least 2nd wave. but hey, better blame it on the system media instead of taking care of them yourself. edit: stratos: are you arguing that i should find this joke ok, because you assume i was never oppressed by a woman? No, I'm arguing that it's OK for there to be different standards for insensitive jokes about certain groups because the context surrounding those groups and jokes are different.Oh, and as I pointed out, plenty of feminists DO criticize overly radical feminists and call them out on their craziness. This discussion reminds me of Fox News saying, "Where are all the Muslims denouncing radical Islamists?!" and then the rest of the world points to the dozens of instances where plenty of Muslims DO condemn radical Islam and yet they're ignored because they don't fit Fox's narrative.
but do you see the irony there?.
you are in this thread (maybe not you specifically but the rest of them) trying to come up with or support some general rules for all gamers that would stop harassment between all gamers while admitting and pointing out how subjective and context dependent the jokes are.
that logic of yours about the contextual individualism in getting a joke or being upset by one, has no practical(i.r.l) applications. so, when you're forced to first make then later apply some rules related to that, you'll inevitably fuck someone over and let me guess now, like a wild, out of the blue, uneducated guess - those would be the males?. i mean it's not like you have any other separation criteria for those abusers, like: age, culture, background, upbringing, social status ...
it's just, they all have dicks.
(about the feminism and its radical aspects: every time you use in your phrase wording solely feminism , just take it; be prepared to take the whole radicalization of it. it's on you to first differentiate your meaning of it.)
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On March 20 2015 04:19 xM(Z wrote:Show nested quote +On March 20 2015 03:21 Stratos_speAr wrote:On March 20 2015 03:01 Hryul wrote:On March 20 2015 02:01 Plansix wrote:On March 20 2015 01:56 Hryul wrote:On March 20 2015 01:48 Plansix wrote:On March 20 2015 01:36 Hryul wrote:On March 20 2015 01:33 Plansix wrote:On March 20 2015 01:28 Hryul wrote:On March 20 2015 01:07 ComaDose wrote:
[quote]
huh? that's a really popular joke that people make all the time. i don't make such jokes and I thought the homeland of these chokes is 4chan. outside of it i never heard anybody make a joke like that. cultural differences much? Which joke? The "get back in the kitchen" joke? yes. btw in agame now, sry That is a super common joke in the states and people make it all the time. It made ironically and clearly no one who makes the joke thinks women belong in the kitchen. If they did, it wouldn't be a joke. it's strange. I would never make such a comment towards women and @ quantichawk I wasn't aware that there is a whole hashtag behind this, but I perceive this as offensive. comparing men to garbage and not even allowing them inside the house. the joke is totally lost on me. but hey, that's just like my opinion. i'm sure she intended it to be totally funny and not chauvinistic. You well within your right to find it offensive. But I would also point out that no one is making the joke directly at you. The person is making it to their followers on social media and we can assume that they followed the person for that reason. Off color jokes are fine as long as they are only going to an intended audience and not being directed at someone who does not want to hear them. Of course when the person is super famous(like Robert Downey Jr. level), that applies less and less because they are not really in control of who their incidence is on the internet. But if you follow a comedian you can expect an off color joke every once and a while. I'm not "offended" by it like "ehrmagod fire her!!", but I do think it is problematic. Furthermore this is also not how it works: a PR worker got fired because she made a racial joke on twitter which magnified into a shitstorm while she was flying to south africa. so no, you don't have some "public privacy" where jokes are ok, as long as you're not super famous. if you post something on twitter it is public period. and you are responsible for it. and the point i was trying to make was an entire other: stratos spear was attacking "the media" for portraying "feminism" the wrong way. Now I dug up an example of a woman who should be an example of equality feminism. she is in a position of power through her writing for the guardian and she should make a prime example for her kind. yet she is making chauvinistic jokes about men. So it isn't the media portraying feminism wrong but feminists themselves (even those who should know better) make it easy to attack them. and as ninazerg showed, there are problematic tendencies within feminism since at least 2nd wave. but hey, better blame it on the system media instead of taking care of them yourself. edit: stratos: are you arguing that i should find this joke ok, because you assume i was never oppressed by a woman? No, I'm arguing that it's OK for there to be different standards for insensitive jokes about certain groups because the context surrounding those groups and jokes are different.Oh, and as I pointed out, plenty of feminists DO criticize overly radical feminists and call them out on their craziness. This discussion reminds me of Fox News saying, "Where are all the Muslims denouncing radical Islamists?!" and then the rest of the world points to the dozens of instances where plenty of Muslims DO condemn radical Islam and yet they're ignored because they don't fit Fox's narrative. (about the feminism and its radical aspects: every time you use in your phrase wording solely feminism , just take it; be prepared to take the whole radicalization of it. it's on you to first differentiate your meaning of it.)
There is no need to "differentiate your meaning of it" because, like you've been told repeatedly, feminism is about achieving equality between the sexes. If you are failing to understand that, it's on you.
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dude just get it, almost everyone in this thread is a special kind of feminist. i will never get all of them and the dictionary is, to say the least, conflicting.
Edit: even if i stretch my imagination and accept your definition of feminism, i can only see it valid in theory. it has no applicable merits. ever.
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but do you see the irony there?.
you are in this thread (maybe not you specifically but the rest of them) trying to come up with or support some general rules for all gamers that would stop harassment between all gamers while admitting and pointing out how subjective and context dependent the jokes are.
that logic of yours about the contextual individualism in getting a joke or being upset by one, has no practical(i.r.l) applications. so, when you're forced to first make then later apply some rules related to that, you'll inevitably fuck someone over and let me guess now, like a wild, out of the blue, uneducated guess - those would be the males?. i mean it's not like you have any other separation criteria for those abusers, like: age, culture, background, upbringing, social status ...
it's just, they all have dicks.
(about the feminism and its radical aspects: every time you use in your phrase wording solely feminism , just take it; be prepared to take the whole radicalization of it. it's on you to first differentiate your meaning of it.)
Your last comment is completely ridiculous. Feminists do frequently criticize other feminists for being overly-radical. It's your fault if you are lazy and refuse to put any intellectual effort whatsoever into understanding feminism.
As for the first part, it absolutely does have practical application, and it worries me that you can't see that. You don't make a joke about slavery to a black guy. You don't make a joke about the Holocaust to a Holocaust survivor. You don't make a rape joke to a rape victim.
As for your general sweeping rules for all gamers, you're going to have to give some examples because I've seen very little (if any) of that. "Don't be a sexist dick" isn't any kind of generalized rule that undermines my point.
dude just get it, almost everyone in this thread is a special kind of feminist. i will never get all of them and the dictionary is, to say the least, conflicting.
Understanding different subsets of a group and not generalizing everyone based on one of them is an incredibly simple task and you really, really shouldn't have this hard of a time doing it. Do you think that all Christians are like the Westboro Baptist Church? Or that all Pro-lifers are like abortion clinic bombers? Or that all people that are pro-gun rights are as extreme as the NRA?
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On March 20 2015 04:32 xM(Z wrote:
dude just get it, almost everyone in this thread is a special kind of feminist. i will never get all of them and the dictionary is, to say the least, conflicting.
Its hard to get a lot of people to agree on anything, including pizza toppings. This doesn't change the definition of feminism because everyone is a different person.
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@Stratos_speAr
black guys do make slavery jokes between them and you could make a rape joke to a gamer who was a game rape victim, like, in a game(can't phrase it better). it's of bad taste but still doable; it's all context.
@co
oh, and don't even get me started on the meaning of 'equality'. that's another shit can of worms so between feminism and equality, their semantics and nuances , their meanings and contexts per case, per individual, per need, i'll get Alzheimer's.
Edit: you dudes have it easy because it's your way(i can smell the righteousness from here) or the highway.
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My way of getting by is not talking in team speak. So the only stuff I get is you are a guy  .
I know a few that are faking to be males. And the reasoning behind this is not because people are being idiots to others. But that they are mostly using sexual harassment against women. And that tends to be the most annoying thing for them.
Mostly they do it in MMOs though because they want to avoid people trying to flirt with them and give them presents. Which I also find to be the most annoying thing.
But the internet is becoming a toxic wasteland and children are learning their social behavior on the internet more and more. That should be something people should worry about. Because women are treated that way in RL as well and it will get worse if the kids learn that its okay to be idiots. And of course it will get worse for everyone. More racists, more feminists/sexists and worse because people will value others less.
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So wait. Where is the documentary? I didn't see a video link in the OP.
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On March 20 2015 05:35 SigmaoctanusIV wrote:
So wait. Where is the documentary? I didn't see a video link in the OP.
Its not released yet. Its doing the film festival run and released to kickstarter backers. SoonTM.
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On March 20 2015 04:26 kwizach wrote:Show nested quote +On March 20 2015 04:19 xM(Z wrote:On March 20 2015 03:21 Stratos_speAr wrote:On March 20 2015 03:01 Hryul wrote:On March 20 2015 02:01 Plansix wrote:On March 20 2015 01:56 Hryul wrote:On March 20 2015 01:48 Plansix wrote:On March 20 2015 01:36 Hryul wrote:On March 20 2015 01:33 Plansix wrote:On March 20 2015 01:28 Hryul wrote:
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i don't make such jokes and I thought the homeland of these chokes is 4chan. outside of it i never heard anybody make a joke like that. cultural differences much? Which joke? The "get back in the kitchen" joke? yes. btw in agame now, sry That is a super common joke in the states and people make it all the time. It made ironically and clearly no one who makes the joke thinks women belong in the kitchen. If they did, it wouldn't be a joke. it's strange. I would never make such a comment towards women and @ quantichawk I wasn't aware that there is a whole hashtag behind this, but I perceive this as offensive. comparing men to garbage and not even allowing them inside the house. the joke is totally lost on me. but hey, that's just like my opinion. i'm sure she intended it to be totally funny and not chauvinistic. You well within your right to find it offensive. But I would also point out that no one is making the joke directly at you. The person is making it to their followers on social media and we can assume that they followed the person for that reason. Off color jokes are fine as long as they are only going to an intended audience and not being directed at someone who does not want to hear them. Of course when the person is super famous(like Robert Downey Jr. level), that applies less and less because they are not really in control of who their incidence is on the internet. But if you follow a comedian you can expect an off color joke every once and a while. I'm not "offended" by it like "ehrmagod fire her!!", but I do think it is problematic. Furthermore this is also not how it works: a PR worker got fired because she made a racial joke on twitter which magnified into a shitstorm while she was flying to south africa. so no, you don't have some "public privacy" where jokes are ok, as long as you're not super famous. if you post something on twitter it is public period. and you are responsible for it. and the point i was trying to make was an entire other: stratos spear was attacking "the media" for portraying "feminism" the wrong way. Now I dug up an example of a woman who should be an example of equality feminism. she is in a position of power through her writing for the guardian and she should make a prime example for her kind. yet she is making chauvinistic jokes about men. So it isn't the media portraying feminism wrong but feminists themselves (even those who should know better) make it easy to attack them. and as ninazerg showed, there are problematic tendencies within feminism since at least 2nd wave. but hey, better blame it on the system media instead of taking care of them yourself. edit: stratos: are you arguing that i should find this joke ok, because you assume i was never oppressed by a woman? No, I'm arguing that it's OK for there to be different standards for insensitive jokes about certain groups because the context surrounding those groups and jokes are different.Oh, and as I pointed out, plenty of feminists DO criticize overly radical feminists and call them out on their craziness. This discussion reminds me of Fox News saying, "Where are all the Muslims denouncing radical Islamists?!" and then the rest of the world points to the dozens of instances where plenty of Muslims DO condemn radical Islam and yet they're ignored because they don't fit Fox's narrative. (about the feminism and its radical aspects: every time you use in your phrase wording solely feminism , just take it; be prepared to take the whole radicalization of it. it's on you to first differentiate your meaning of it.) There is no need to "differentiate your meaning of it" because, like you've been told repeatedly, feminism is about achieving equality between the sexes. If you are failing to understand that, it's on you.
there is, however, a need to define terms. equality has by no means been strictly and precisely defined by any feminist i have heard speak on the issue.
the phrase 'equality between the sexes' is rather broad and unspecific. does it refer to equality of opportunity, or parity in outcomes?
it is logical to assume that modern feminists are after equal outcomes, as equal opportunity has existed for decades. the problem is that these two definitions are mutually exclusive. in order to force equal outcomes, there must be unequal opportunity to compensate for real or perceived deficiencies in the abilities or circumstances of a given group or individual.
in either case any achievable equality is necessarily limited and conditional. modern feminist tend to ignore this fact and assert that there is some achievable state of 'total equality'.
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