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On March 10 2015 02:39 Zambrah wrote:Show nested quote +On March 10 2015 02:17 levelping wrote:On March 10 2015 02:12 zlefin wrote:On March 10 2015 01:41 Plansix wrote:On March 10 2015 01:36 wei2coolman wrote:I don't know if anyone watches fairly odd parents. But, there's this great episode on what illustrates a lot of what people are talking about this being a fairly non issue. It's the grey blob episode. So pretty much timmy is fed up with being bullied by the neighborhood dentist and his son. So he makes a wish that everyone was exactly the same. So everyone in the world turn in grey blobs, and the entire world is shades of grey. He then goes to visit the dentist and his son to claim that they can no longer make fun of him since they were exactly the same. Guess what the dentist and the son say? They claim that they're the greyest of the grey blobs and blobbiest of blobs and that Timmy was not as good as them. In the end, timmy reaches the conclusion that assholes are going to be assholes no matter what, so you should just be proud of who you are. link to synopsis So harassment of women gaming isn't an issue because this cartoon on Cartoon Network told you so, even though the New York Times(and every other news major new agency) is reporting otherwise? I'm not sure where you get this response, as it seems wholly different from what the post you quoted talked about. It also feels oddly and needlessly aggressive. Well I am not sure how anyone is supposed to seriously respond to an argument based on an episode of a cartoon. And anyway I'm not even sure what is the point that is being made - no one is asking that everyone on the internet act in the same one. Just be polite (e.g. no more rape jokes), and respect your other gamers, some of whom are female. Im not sure why the fact that its a cartoon necessarily invalidates it's point, but the point hes making isnt necessarily that everyone should just be the same so much as that dicks are going to be dicks and that rather than try to change everyone around him he should have just accepted that they're going to be dicks and not to take their shit to heart. It would be nice if people wouldn't be dicks but thats the kind of change that can be expected to take a longer period of time, the way I tend to see it is that in the meantime you have to make do, if I ever dip my feet in WoW's trade chat I'm prepared to be called faggot, bitch, get told to get fucked by 12 inch black dildos in the ass, and if they discover I'm hispanic I can expect the usual racial slurs, which sucks, but in the meantime I have to just not be in trade chat, which is a shame, but I think an important part of being a part of an online community is having the mental fortitude to separate yourselves from the many cesspools that exist around whatever game you're playing. I stick to my guild chat with good, friendly people who aren't going to repeatedly tell me to go get fucked in the mouth with 100 tiny dildos, in an ideal world people would just not tell me to get fucked in the mouth with 100 tiny dildos, but we don't live in that perfect world and in the meantime I make do. I dont think the cartoon makes a perfect example for the long term, but in the meantime some solutions are really to grow thicker skin, or disassociate yourself with fuckwits. Hopefully in the future these cesspools will shrink, but I'm willing to bet they won't be gone tomorrow, so you have to make do. Eventually if enough people choose not to associate with the fuckwits they'll be choked out or secluded and hopefully out of the general environment enough to have a more pleasurable gaming experience. Thats an ideal world though, and maybe internet anonymity will keep the cesspools live and well. Just to make it perfectly clear I am NOT saying girls just need to toughen the fuck up and let the gaming sphere remain as it is forever, I'm saying they'll have to accept some intermittent solutions to make gaming more tolerable because this sort of change just can't happen over night, when tomorrow comes the fuckwits will wake up and their fuckwittery will continue. It sucks, but thats kind of the reality of the situation, at least for the near future.
But don't you see that adopting a "well everyone is going to be a dick, so toughen up" even as a temporary measure just validates people being dicks, and more importantly, prevents an important discussion on a long term solution. If everyone just puts up with rudeness and harassment then where's the impetus to address such rudeness and harassment?
And don't you see how as male gamers who do not face the same sort of harassment as girls, it is rather presumptive to tell other people to just toughen up to problems that we do not really face?
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On March 10 2015 02:37 WhiteDog wrote:Can we agree that revealing anything about yourself - being gender, skin color, religion preferences, sexual preferences, even political preferences - is a problem on the internet ? Show nested quote +The ones who start flirting with her are just as bad as the ones who are mean Why ? That ridiculous not mean.
Well gender is not really like any of those other things, especially if the game uses voice communication. If a female wants to play any MMO, LoL, or Dota at a semi-serious level, she will be on voice communication sooner rather than later and will not have a choice about revealing her gender. As for those other character traits, yeah I would find it a little strange if someone loaded up a game of Dota and declared to both teams "I am a black, agnostic, gay libertarian," but no one should be hostile if they did choose to say that. Most would probably assume they are a troll. But a woman reveals herself as female just by opening her mouth and participating in the game as it was meant to be played. Having to refuse to use voice chat or pretend to be male in order to enjoy the game doesn't really seem equitable does it?
And "just as bad," is probably the wrong choice of words, it's just bad in a different way. Obviously it doesn't get much worse than death or rape threats. But the awkward neck-beards who pipe up with "omg a girl" as soon as she opens her mouth are contributing to the same bad environment where everyone but him is uncomfortable. How about we just treat her like another teammate rather than an elusive pokemon.
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On March 10 2015 02:44 Millitron wrote:Show nested quote +On March 10 2015 02:25 ZasZ. wrote:On March 10 2015 01:39 dravernor wrote:On March 09 2015 03:22 Paljas wrote:On March 09 2015 02:37 dravernor wrote:
Don't reveal you're a girl, simple!
I am a bit suprised that you dont think that this is problematic. Well, of course it is problematic, but I think it is more problematic that people in general get abused like that, not just girls. I'm aware my (half joking) suggestion is avoiding the issue as a short term answer. However, unless a game specifically asks you to define your gender when playing online with other people, there is no reason to welcome such treatment by revealing that you're a girl. It isn't really relevant to the context of most casual, social games, and doesn't need to be highlighted unnecessarily. I don't know where I stand on this. Sure girls get treated badly and take it more to heart than guys online, but I don't think it warrants a documentary exclusively on how women are abused. As some other posters have been saying - everyone gets abused. In the extreme cases of Zoe Quinn and that other lady Brianna where their personal security was threatened, then I can understand, but most abuse and threats thrown around on the internet are idle and immature. The problem really is that people have no respect for anyone else. You don't see a problem with the fact that the best way for women to avoid being harassed in online gaming is to not reveal their gender or outright pretend they are men? I disagree with a lot of the really rabid feminism going around nowadays in the gaming industry, but to deny there is any sexist problem at all is delusional. Just watch any twitch stream of an esports event or conference and wait for a woman to get on stage and start talking. The "GRILL" will be deafening. And before you say "well that's twitch chat," that's the whole point. It's a representation of the darkest corners of the gaming community having a voice and no interest in using that voice respectfully. Another example is whenever a girl speaks up over voice chat in Dota and immediately everyone's attitude changes. The ones who start flirting with her are just as bad as the ones who are mean, it just fosters an uncomfortable atmosphere for everyone and makes females feel like they are trying to be part of a male culture. It's a systemic issue that doesn't really have a discrete cause that can be addressed, we just have to get better. It starts with people teaching their children that the internet is no different from any other public forum and they should conduct themselves appropriately. How about the girls who get tons of extra positive attention solely because they're female? The twitch streamers who are just average at their games, but get thousands of subs because they're female. The MMO players who get free stuff from other players simply because they're female. There are plenty of women who make their gender known for nefarious reasons. And gaming IS a male culture. For almost the entirety of the history of videogames, men were the vast majority of participants. Men are still the vast majority of participants in games other than Farmville or Candy Crush.
So I'll like to invite a clarification from you. Are you saying that because gaming is male culture, we should not be making it more comfortable for girls to play games too? Would you also not agree that the exploitation of being female as stated in your first complaint, exists mostly because of the scarcity of girls and gaming being a male culture? And therefore do you not think that making the community more receptive to girls solves the issue that seems to be bugging you?
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On March 10 2015 02:44 levelping wrote:Show nested quote +On March 10 2015 02:39 Zambrah wrote:On March 10 2015 02:17 levelping wrote:On March 10 2015 02:12 zlefin wrote:On March 10 2015 01:41 Plansix wrote:On March 10 2015 01:36 wei2coolman wrote:I don't know if anyone watches fairly odd parents. But, there's this great episode on what illustrates a lot of what people are talking about this being a fairly non issue. It's the grey blob episode. So pretty much timmy is fed up with being bullied by the neighborhood dentist and his son. So he makes a wish that everyone was exactly the same. So everyone in the world turn in grey blobs, and the entire world is shades of grey. He then goes to visit the dentist and his son to claim that they can no longer make fun of him since they were exactly the same. Guess what the dentist and the son say? They claim that they're the greyest of the grey blobs and blobbiest of blobs and that Timmy was not as good as them. In the end, timmy reaches the conclusion that assholes are going to be assholes no matter what, so you should just be proud of who you are. link to synopsis So harassment of women gaming isn't an issue because this cartoon on Cartoon Network told you so, even though the New York Times(and every other news major new agency) is reporting otherwise? I'm not sure where you get this response, as it seems wholly different from what the post you quoted talked about. It also feels oddly and needlessly aggressive. Well I am not sure how anyone is supposed to seriously respond to an argument based on an episode of a cartoon. And anyway I'm not even sure what is the point that is being made - no one is asking that everyone on the internet act in the same one. Just be polite (e.g. no more rape jokes), and respect your other gamers, some of whom are female. Im not sure why the fact that its a cartoon necessarily invalidates it's point, but the point hes making isnt necessarily that everyone should just be the same so much as that dicks are going to be dicks and that rather than try to change everyone around him he should have just accepted that they're going to be dicks and not to take their shit to heart. It would be nice if people wouldn't be dicks but thats the kind of change that can be expected to take a longer period of time, the way I tend to see it is that in the meantime you have to make do, if I ever dip my feet in WoW's trade chat I'm prepared to be called faggot, bitch, get told to get fucked by 12 inch black dildos in the ass, and if they discover I'm hispanic I can expect the usual racial slurs, which sucks, but in the meantime I have to just not be in trade chat, which is a shame, but I think an important part of being a part of an online community is having the mental fortitude to separate yourselves from the many cesspools that exist around whatever game you're playing. I stick to my guild chat with good, friendly people who aren't going to repeatedly tell me to go get fucked in the mouth with 100 tiny dildos, in an ideal world people would just not tell me to get fucked in the mouth with 100 tiny dildos, but we don't live in that perfect world and in the meantime I make do. I dont think the cartoon makes a perfect example for the long term, but in the meantime some solutions are really to grow thicker skin, or disassociate yourself with fuckwits. Hopefully in the future these cesspools will shrink, but I'm willing to bet they won't be gone tomorrow, so you have to make do. Eventually if enough people choose not to associate with the fuckwits they'll be choked out or secluded and hopefully out of the general environment enough to have a more pleasurable gaming experience. Thats an ideal world though, and maybe internet anonymity will keep the cesspools live and well. Just to make it perfectly clear I am NOT saying girls just need to toughen the fuck up and let the gaming sphere remain as it is forever, I'm saying they'll have to accept some intermittent solutions to make gaming more tolerable because this sort of change just can't happen over night, when tomorrow comes the fuckwits will wake up and their fuckwittery will continue. It sucks, but thats kind of the reality of the situation, at least for the near future. But don't you see that adopting a "well everyone is going to be a dick, so toughen up" even as a temporary measure just validates people being dicks, and more importantly, prevents an important discussion on a long term solution. If everyone just puts up with rudeness and harassment then where's the impetus to address such rudeness and harassment? And don't you see how as male gamers who do not face the same sort of harassment as girls, it is rather presumptive to tell other people to just toughen up to problems that we do not really face?
Yeah I don't really understand that rationalization. As more and more kids grow up on the internet, shouldn't we be trying to curb toxic behavior rather than tolerate it? It will only get worse, and there aren't many gamers who can honestly say they enjoy it the way it is now and would rather the toxic behavior stay. It's always a resigned "well this is the way it is, so best grow thicker skin." Yeah, sure, that's the best way to enjoy gaming right now, but why can't we strive for something a little bit better, where people don't have to avoid trade chat or hide the fact they are female or a minority?
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On March 10 2015 02:47 ZasZ. wrote:Show nested quote +On March 10 2015 02:37 WhiteDog wrote:Can we agree that revealing anything about yourself - being gender, skin color, religion preferences, sexual preferences, even political preferences - is a problem on the internet ? The ones who start flirting with her are just as bad as the ones who are mean Why ? That ridiculous not mean. Well gender is not really like any of those other things, especially if the game uses voice communication. If a female wants to play any MMO, LoL, or Dota at a semi-serious level, she will be on voice communication sooner rather than later and will not have a choice about revealing her gender. As for those other character traits, yeah I would find it a little strange if someone loaded up a game of Dota and declared to both teams "I am a black, agnostic, gay libertarian," but no one should be hostile if they did choose to say that. Most would probably assume they are a troll. But a woman reveals herself as female just by opening her mouth and participating in the game as it was meant to be played. Having to refuse to use voice chat or pretend to be male in order to enjoy the game doesn't really seem equitable does it? And "just as bad," is probably the wrong choice of words, it's just bad in a different way. Obviously it doesn't get much worse than death or rape threats. But the awkward neck-beards who pipe up with "omg a girl" as soon as she opens her mouth are contributing to the same bad environment where everyone but him is uncomfortable. How about we just treat her like another teammate rather than an elusive pokemon.
You're a kid really if you believe hitting on a girl, even in such a clumsy manner as on the internet, is a "bad" behavior. Do you think all girls are weak little virgins that needs protection ? Sex is part of life, and men trying to find partners is absolutly normal.
Never used voice communicator with strangers in games, didn't prevent me from achieving a good enough level.
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On March 10 2015 02:44 levelping wrote:Show nested quote +On March 10 2015 02:39 Zambrah wrote:On March 10 2015 02:17 levelping wrote:On March 10 2015 02:12 zlefin wrote:On March 10 2015 01:41 Plansix wrote:On March 10 2015 01:36 wei2coolman wrote:I don't know if anyone watches fairly odd parents. But, there's this great episode on what illustrates a lot of what people are talking about this being a fairly non issue. It's the grey blob episode. So pretty much timmy is fed up with being bullied by the neighborhood dentist and his son. So he makes a wish that everyone was exactly the same. So everyone in the world turn in grey blobs, and the entire world is shades of grey. He then goes to visit the dentist and his son to claim that they can no longer make fun of him since they were exactly the same. Guess what the dentist and the son say? They claim that they're the greyest of the grey blobs and blobbiest of blobs and that Timmy was not as good as them. In the end, timmy reaches the conclusion that assholes are going to be assholes no matter what, so you should just be proud of who you are. link to synopsis So harassment of women gaming isn't an issue because this cartoon on Cartoon Network told you so, even though the New York Times(and every other news major new agency) is reporting otherwise? I'm not sure where you get this response, as it seems wholly different from what the post you quoted talked about. It also feels oddly and needlessly aggressive. Well I am not sure how anyone is supposed to seriously respond to an argument based on an episode of a cartoon. And anyway I'm not even sure what is the point that is being made - no one is asking that everyone on the internet act in the same one. Just be polite (e.g. no more rape jokes), and respect your other gamers, some of whom are female. Im not sure why the fact that its a cartoon necessarily invalidates it's point, but the point hes making isnt necessarily that everyone should just be the same so much as that dicks are going to be dicks and that rather than try to change everyone around him he should have just accepted that they're going to be dicks and not to take their shit to heart. It would be nice if people wouldn't be dicks but thats the kind of change that can be expected to take a longer period of time, the way I tend to see it is that in the meantime you have to make do, if I ever dip my feet in WoW's trade chat I'm prepared to be called faggot, bitch, get told to get fucked by 12 inch black dildos in the ass, and if they discover I'm hispanic I can expect the usual racial slurs, which sucks, but in the meantime I have to just not be in trade chat, which is a shame, but I think an important part of being a part of an online community is having the mental fortitude to separate yourselves from the many cesspools that exist around whatever game you're playing. I stick to my guild chat with good, friendly people who aren't going to repeatedly tell me to go get fucked in the mouth with 100 tiny dildos, in an ideal world people would just not tell me to get fucked in the mouth with 100 tiny dildos, but we don't live in that perfect world and in the meantime I make do. I dont think the cartoon makes a perfect example for the long term, but in the meantime some solutions are really to grow thicker skin, or disassociate yourself with fuckwits. Hopefully in the future these cesspools will shrink, but I'm willing to bet they won't be gone tomorrow, so you have to make do. Eventually if enough people choose not to associate with the fuckwits they'll be choked out or secluded and hopefully out of the general environment enough to have a more pleasurable gaming experience. Thats an ideal world though, and maybe internet anonymity will keep the cesspools live and well. Just to make it perfectly clear I am NOT saying girls just need to toughen the fuck up and let the gaming sphere remain as it is forever, I'm saying they'll have to accept some intermittent solutions to make gaming more tolerable because this sort of change just can't happen over night, when tomorrow comes the fuckwits will wake up and their fuckwittery will continue. It sucks, but thats kind of the reality of the situation, at least for the near future. But don't you see that adopting a "well everyone is going to be a dick, so toughen up" even as a temporary measure just validates people being dicks, and more importantly, prevents an important discussion on a long term solution. If everyone just puts up with rudeness and harassment then where's the impetus to address such rudeness and harassment? And don't you see how as male gamers who do not face the same sort of harassment as girls, it is rather presumptive to tell other people to just toughen up to problems that we do not really face?
Im just not particularly sure what the alternative solution is for the mean time. Do girls just stop playing games? That would suck.
I know female gamers that have already "toughened up" which is a crappy way to phrase it actually, they've just found places where people aren't fuckwits to one another and they enjoy their time with people who aren't, well, fuckwits. Though some really do just kind of shrug it off, they can do that, some people can't do that, which is fine, takes a great deal of fortitude not to be ground down by the incessant waves of asininity (is that a word.)
I mean whats the alternative? Do you just drown in the sea of vitriol? While the discussions happen time won't halt and the idiots won't just subside out of politeness. The alternative to learning to deal with the shit/avoiding the shit is to just not game and I consider that to be the lesser of the three options.
It sucks that those are the options for now, but Im not sure what else is to be done. This sort of change just doesn't happen over night.
EDIT: For SUPER CLARITY,
I will reiterate that I am not saying, "lol just deal with it toughen up," as an end all, be all solution, I'm saying that its an unfortunate thing that seems like its necessary for the NOW, the idea is that in the future its NOT necessary, that rampant abuse subsides and people can be nicer to one another. I doubt that happens over night, this is my point, it takes time, take precautions while the change actually happens.
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On March 10 2015 02:44 Millitron wrote:Show nested quote +On March 10 2015 02:25 ZasZ. wrote:On March 10 2015 01:39 dravernor wrote:On March 09 2015 03:22 Paljas wrote:On March 09 2015 02:37 dravernor wrote:
Don't reveal you're a girl, simple!
I am a bit suprised that you dont think that this is problematic. Well, of course it is problematic, but I think it is more problematic that people in general get abused like that, not just girls. I'm aware my (half joking) suggestion is avoiding the issue as a short term answer. However, unless a game specifically asks you to define your gender when playing online with other people, there is no reason to welcome such treatment by revealing that you're a girl. It isn't really relevant to the context of most casual, social games, and doesn't need to be highlighted unnecessarily. I don't know where I stand on this. Sure girls get treated badly and take it more to heart than guys online, but I don't think it warrants a documentary exclusively on how women are abused. As some other posters have been saying - everyone gets abused. In the extreme cases of Zoe Quinn and that other lady Brianna where their personal security was threatened, then I can understand, but most abuse and threats thrown around on the internet are idle and immature. The problem really is that people have no respect for anyone else. You don't see a problem with the fact that the best way for women to avoid being harassed in online gaming is to not reveal their gender or outright pretend they are men? I disagree with a lot of the really rabid feminism going around nowadays in the gaming industry, but to deny there is any sexist problem at all is delusional. Just watch any twitch stream of an esports event or conference and wait for a woman to get on stage and start talking. The "GRILL" will be deafening. And before you say "well that's twitch chat," that's the whole point. It's a representation of the darkest corners of the gaming community having a voice and no interest in using that voice respectfully. Another example is whenever a girl speaks up over voice chat in Dota and immediately everyone's attitude changes. The ones who start flirting with her are just as bad as the ones who are mean, it just fosters an uncomfortable atmosphere for everyone and makes females feel like they are trying to be part of a male culture. It's a systemic issue that doesn't really have a discrete cause that can be addressed, we just have to get better. It starts with people teaching their children that the internet is no different from any other public forum and they should conduct themselves appropriately. How about the girls who get tons of extra positive attention solely because they're female? The twitch streamers who are just average at their games, but get thousands of subs because they're female. The MMO players who get free stuff from other players simply because they're female. There are plenty of women who make their gender known for nefarious reasons. And gaming IS a male culture. For almost the entirety of the history of videogames, men were the vast majority of participants. Men are still the vast majority of participants in games other than Farmville or Candy Crush.
I don't know if I would call it nefarious so much as exploitative. Ironically enough, though, that "problem" would also be solved if gamers as a whole could be just a little bit more adjusted on the internet. Yeah, streamers who have their tits hanging out of a tank top will probably get more views from a male-dominated audience, that's sort of the nature of the beast and is a principle modern advertising and marketing relies heavily on.
Gaming has been a male culture, but that doesn't mean it always has to be. Saying something should stay the way it is because it has always been that way is not an argument. I don't know about you, but I wouldn't mind if the "core" gaming demographic was a 50/50 split between men and women. It would make it a lot easier for gamers to find partners that share interests with them, for one. As it is, the vast majority of gamers have to sacrifice a part of their hobby in order to be in a committed relationship, or search for the elusive gamer girl that loves to do the same things that they do. As it is, it's hilariously ironic that gaming culture does everything it can to exclude women and then gamers complain when they aren't able to speak to women or can't find women that share their interests.
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On March 10 2015 02:53 WhiteDog wrote:Show nested quote +On March 10 2015 02:47 ZasZ. wrote:On March 10 2015 02:37 WhiteDog wrote:Can we agree that revealing anything about yourself - being gender, skin color, religion preferences, sexual preferences, even political preferences - is a problem on the internet ? The ones who start flirting with her are just as bad as the ones who are mean Why ? That ridiculous not mean. Well gender is not really like any of those other things, especially if the game uses voice communication. If a female wants to play any MMO, LoL, or Dota at a semi-serious level, she will be on voice communication sooner rather than later and will not have a choice about revealing her gender. As for those other character traits, yeah I would find it a little strange if someone loaded up a game of Dota and declared to both teams "I am a black, agnostic, gay libertarian," but no one should be hostile if they did choose to say that. Most would probably assume they are a troll. But a woman reveals herself as female just by opening her mouth and participating in the game as it was meant to be played. Having to refuse to use voice chat or pretend to be male in order to enjoy the game doesn't really seem equitable does it? And "just as bad," is probably the wrong choice of words, it's just bad in a different way. Obviously it doesn't get much worse than death or rape threats. But the awkward neck-beards who pipe up with "omg a girl" as soon as she opens her mouth are contributing to the same bad environment where everyone but him is uncomfortable. How about we just treat her like another teammate rather than an elusive pokemon. You're a kid really if you believe hitting on a girl, even in such a clumsy manner as on the internet, is a "bad" behavior. Do you think all girls are weak little virgins that needs protection ? Sex is part of life, and men trying to find partners is absolutly normal. Never used voice communicator with strangers in games, didn't prevent me from achieving a good enough level.
Its not bad behavior if you don't throw a fit if you get rejected in a most amazing manner. But unwanted sexual attention and the negative blow back that comes from rejecting said attention is something women deal with.
http://www.theonion.com/articles/courageous-man-overcomes-womans-body-language-to-c,38152/
This Onion article pretty much sums up the issue that women face with unwanted sexual attention.
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On March 10 2015 02:54 Zambrah wrote:Show nested quote +On March 10 2015 02:44 levelping wrote:On March 10 2015 02:39 Zambrah wrote:On March 10 2015 02:17 levelping wrote:On March 10 2015 02:12 zlefin wrote:On March 10 2015 01:41 Plansix wrote:On March 10 2015 01:36 wei2coolman wrote:I don't know if anyone watches fairly odd parents. But, there's this great episode on what illustrates a lot of what people are talking about this being a fairly non issue. It's the grey blob episode. So pretty much timmy is fed up with being bullied by the neighborhood dentist and his son. So he makes a wish that everyone was exactly the same. So everyone in the world turn in grey blobs, and the entire world is shades of grey. He then goes to visit the dentist and his son to claim that they can no longer make fun of him since they were exactly the same. Guess what the dentist and the son say? They claim that they're the greyest of the grey blobs and blobbiest of blobs and that Timmy was not as good as them. In the end, timmy reaches the conclusion that assholes are going to be assholes no matter what, so you should just be proud of who you are. link to synopsis So harassment of women gaming isn't an issue because this cartoon on Cartoon Network told you so, even though the New York Times(and every other news major new agency) is reporting otherwise? I'm not sure where you get this response, as it seems wholly different from what the post you quoted talked about. It also feels oddly and needlessly aggressive. Well I am not sure how anyone is supposed to seriously respond to an argument based on an episode of a cartoon. And anyway I'm not even sure what is the point that is being made - no one is asking that everyone on the internet act in the same one. Just be polite (e.g. no more rape jokes), and respect your other gamers, some of whom are female. Im not sure why the fact that its a cartoon necessarily invalidates it's point, but the point hes making isnt necessarily that everyone should just be the same so much as that dicks are going to be dicks and that rather than try to change everyone around him he should have just accepted that they're going to be dicks and not to take their shit to heart. It would be nice if people wouldn't be dicks but thats the kind of change that can be expected to take a longer period of time, the way I tend to see it is that in the meantime you have to make do, if I ever dip my feet in WoW's trade chat I'm prepared to be called faggot, bitch, get told to get fucked by 12 inch black dildos in the ass, and if they discover I'm hispanic I can expect the usual racial slurs, which sucks, but in the meantime I have to just not be in trade chat, which is a shame, but I think an important part of being a part of an online community is having the mental fortitude to separate yourselves from the many cesspools that exist around whatever game you're playing. I stick to my guild chat with good, friendly people who aren't going to repeatedly tell me to go get fucked in the mouth with 100 tiny dildos, in an ideal world people would just not tell me to get fucked in the mouth with 100 tiny dildos, but we don't live in that perfect world and in the meantime I make do. I dont think the cartoon makes a perfect example for the long term, but in the meantime some solutions are really to grow thicker skin, or disassociate yourself with fuckwits. Hopefully in the future these cesspools will shrink, but I'm willing to bet they won't be gone tomorrow, so you have to make do. Eventually if enough people choose not to associate with the fuckwits they'll be choked out or secluded and hopefully out of the general environment enough to have a more pleasurable gaming experience. Thats an ideal world though, and maybe internet anonymity will keep the cesspools live and well. Just to make it perfectly clear I am NOT saying girls just need to toughen the fuck up and let the gaming sphere remain as it is forever, I'm saying they'll have to accept some intermittent solutions to make gaming more tolerable because this sort of change just can't happen over night, when tomorrow comes the fuckwits will wake up and their fuckwittery will continue. It sucks, but thats kind of the reality of the situation, at least for the near future. But don't you see that adopting a "well everyone is going to be a dick, so toughen up" even as a temporary measure just validates people being dicks, and more importantly, prevents an important discussion on a long term solution. If everyone just puts up with rudeness and harassment then where's the impetus to address such rudeness and harassment? And don't you see how as male gamers who do not face the same sort of harassment as girls, it is rather presumptive to tell other people to just toughen up to problems that we do not really face? Im just not particularly sure what the alternative solution is for the mean time. Do girls just stop playing games? That would suck. I know female gamers that have already "toughened up" which is a crappy way to phrase it actually, they've just found places where people aren't fuckwits to one another and they enjoy their time with people who aren't, well, fuckwits. Though some really do just kind of shrug it off, they can do that, some people can't do that, which is fine, takes a great deal of fortitude not to be ground down by the incessant waves of asininity (is that a word.) I mean whats the alternative? Do you just drown in the sea of vitriol? While the discussions happen time won't halt and the idiots won't just subside out of politeness. The alternative to learning to deal with the shit/avoiding the shit is to just not game and I consider that to be the lesser of the three options. It sucks that those are the options for now, but Im not sure what else is to be done. This sort of change just doesn't happen over night.
I don't think that anyone, least of all the makers of the documentary, are expecting change over night. But these discussions are still important because they (a) raise awareness of the issue of sexual harassment; (b) of the issue of passive sexim; and (c) let new people coming into the community know that this is a live issue which is being discussed and they cannot expect a free pass with whatever racist/sexist/homphobic nonsense they might spout. TL's moderation stance on some of these issues is probably a good example of the small steps that we can be taken.
I mean even if it's a situation of you telling someone else off on line for making a rape threat etc, yeah in the short run it will probably not amount to much (you'd get called a SJW or whatever is trending these days), but if enough people start to make clear that such behaviour is not being tolerated then we are heading somewhere. Wasn't it quite recent that some Starcraft personalities got fired/punished for saying stupid things on stream (can't remember the details).
Edit - haha do not worry I think I get your point, no need for the super clarity. I just think that lots more can be done in the short term.
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On March 10 2015 03:00 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On March 10 2015 02:53 WhiteDog wrote:On March 10 2015 02:47 ZasZ. wrote:On March 10 2015 02:37 WhiteDog wrote:Can we agree that revealing anything about yourself - being gender, skin color, religion preferences, sexual preferences, even political preferences - is a problem on the internet ? The ones who start flirting with her are just as bad as the ones who are mean Why ? That ridiculous not mean. Well gender is not really like any of those other things, especially if the game uses voice communication. If a female wants to play any MMO, LoL, or Dota at a semi-serious level, she will be on voice communication sooner rather than later and will not have a choice about revealing her gender. As for those other character traits, yeah I would find it a little strange if someone loaded up a game of Dota and declared to both teams "I am a black, agnostic, gay libertarian," but no one should be hostile if they did choose to say that. Most would probably assume they are a troll. But a woman reveals herself as female just by opening her mouth and participating in the game as it was meant to be played. Having to refuse to use voice chat or pretend to be male in order to enjoy the game doesn't really seem equitable does it? And "just as bad," is probably the wrong choice of words, it's just bad in a different way. Obviously it doesn't get much worse than death or rape threats. But the awkward neck-beards who pipe up with "omg a girl" as soon as she opens her mouth are contributing to the same bad environment where everyone but him is uncomfortable. How about we just treat her like another teammate rather than an elusive pokemon. You're a kid really if you believe hitting on a girl, even in such a clumsy manner as on the internet, is a "bad" behavior. Do you think all girls are weak little virgins that needs protection ? Sex is part of life, and men trying to find partners is absolutly normal. Never used voice communicator with strangers in games, didn't prevent me from achieving a good enough level. Its not bad behavior if you don't throw a fit if you get rejected in a most amazing manner. But unwanted sexual attention and the negative blow back that comes from rejecting said attention is something women deal with. http://www.theonion.com/articles/courageous-man-overcomes-womans-body-language-to-c,38152/This Onion article pretty much sums up the issue that women face with unwanted sexual attention.
The article does not respond to my point at all. It's harassment, not "hitting on a girl".
And seriously, first world problem. You're part of those people that believe unattractive men should not hit on girls ?
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On March 10 2015 03:03 WhiteDog wrote:Show nested quote +On March 10 2015 03:00 Plansix wrote:On March 10 2015 02:53 WhiteDog wrote:On March 10 2015 02:47 ZasZ. wrote:On March 10 2015 02:37 WhiteDog wrote:Can we agree that revealing anything about yourself - being gender, skin color, religion preferences, sexual preferences, even political preferences - is a problem on the internet ? The ones who start flirting with her are just as bad as the ones who are mean Why ? That ridiculous not mean. Well gender is not really like any of those other things, especially if the game uses voice communication. If a female wants to play any MMO, LoL, or Dota at a semi-serious level, she will be on voice communication sooner rather than later and will not have a choice about revealing her gender. As for those other character traits, yeah I would find it a little strange if someone loaded up a game of Dota and declared to both teams "I am a black, agnostic, gay libertarian," but no one should be hostile if they did choose to say that. Most would probably assume they are a troll. But a woman reveals herself as female just by opening her mouth and participating in the game as it was meant to be played. Having to refuse to use voice chat or pretend to be male in order to enjoy the game doesn't really seem equitable does it? And "just as bad," is probably the wrong choice of words, it's just bad in a different way. Obviously it doesn't get much worse than death or rape threats. But the awkward neck-beards who pipe up with "omg a girl" as soon as she opens her mouth are contributing to the same bad environment where everyone but him is uncomfortable. How about we just treat her like another teammate rather than an elusive pokemon. You're a kid really if you believe hitting on a girl, even in such a clumsy manner as on the internet, is a "bad" behavior. Do you think all girls are weak little virgins that needs protection ? Sex is part of life, and men trying to find partners is absolutly normal. Never used voice communicator with strangers in games, didn't prevent me from achieving a good enough level. Its not bad behavior if you don't throw a fit if you get rejected in a most amazing manner. But unwanted sexual attention and the negative blow back that comes from rejecting said attention is something women deal with. http://www.theonion.com/articles/courageous-man-overcomes-womans-body-language-to-c,38152/This Onion article pretty much sums up the issue that women face with unwanted sexual attention. The article does not respond to my point at all. It's harassment, not hitting on a girl. And seriously, first world problem. You part of those people that believe unattractive men should not hit on girls ?
I think that article is pretty clearly just saying that unwanted attention from clueless guys is annoying and is something that girls have to put up with.
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On March 10 2015 02:53 WhiteDog wrote:Show nested quote +On March 10 2015 02:47 ZasZ. wrote:On March 10 2015 02:37 WhiteDog wrote:Can we agree that revealing anything about yourself - being gender, skin color, religion preferences, sexual preferences, even political preferences - is a problem on the internet ? The ones who start flirting with her are just as bad as the ones who are mean Why ? That ridiculous not mean. Well gender is not really like any of those other things, especially if the game uses voice communication. If a female wants to play any MMO, LoL, or Dota at a semi-serious level, she will be on voice communication sooner rather than later and will not have a choice about revealing her gender. As for those other character traits, yeah I would find it a little strange if someone loaded up a game of Dota and declared to both teams "I am a black, agnostic, gay libertarian," but no one should be hostile if they did choose to say that. Most would probably assume they are a troll. But a woman reveals herself as female just by opening her mouth and participating in the game as it was meant to be played. Having to refuse to use voice chat or pretend to be male in order to enjoy the game doesn't really seem equitable does it? And "just as bad," is probably the wrong choice of words, it's just bad in a different way. Obviously it doesn't get much worse than death or rape threats. But the awkward neck-beards who pipe up with "omg a girl" as soon as she opens her mouth are contributing to the same bad environment where everyone but him is uncomfortable. How about we just treat her like another teammate rather than an elusive pokemon. You're a kid really if you believe hitting on a girl, even in such a clumsy manner as on the internet, is a "bad" behavior. Do you think all girls are weak little virgins that needs protection ? Sex is part of life, and men trying to find partners is absolutly normal. Never used voice communicator with strangers in games, didn't prevent me from achieving a good enough level.
And you are sexist if you think unsolicited flirting has no right to make people feel uncomfortable. Look, in real life if you go up to a complete stranger and hit on them, it might work out. The more likely response is that person thinks you are a creep for not even starting up a casual conversation first, and blows you off. Also, "men trying to find partners is absolutely normal," makes my skin crawl. This isn't the African savannah during mating season, it's a video game. People have every right to feel uncomfortable when complete strangers flirt with them in a video game. And as a 3rd party, it makes me uncomfortable as hell too, but at least I am not the target.
And just because you don't use voice communication doesn't mean that others don't. Depending on the game, many people consider it necessary to even be remotely competitive, and it is also very common in MMOs, which have a larger female demographic than many other gaming genres. Having played a lot of WoW in my time, if you had refused to use voice communication in one of the guilds I was in, it meant you weren't coming along.
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On March 10 2015 03:06 levelping wrote:Show nested quote +On March 10 2015 03:03 WhiteDog wrote:On March 10 2015 03:00 Plansix wrote:On March 10 2015 02:53 WhiteDog wrote:On March 10 2015 02:47 ZasZ. wrote:On March 10 2015 02:37 WhiteDog wrote:Can we agree that revealing anything about yourself - being gender, skin color, religion preferences, sexual preferences, even political preferences - is a problem on the internet ? The ones who start flirting with her are just as bad as the ones who are mean Why ? That ridiculous not mean. Well gender is not really like any of those other things, especially if the game uses voice communication. If a female wants to play any MMO, LoL, or Dota at a semi-serious level, she will be on voice communication sooner rather than later and will not have a choice about revealing her gender. As for those other character traits, yeah I would find it a little strange if someone loaded up a game of Dota and declared to both teams "I am a black, agnostic, gay libertarian," but no one should be hostile if they did choose to say that. Most would probably assume they are a troll. But a woman reveals herself as female just by opening her mouth and participating in the game as it was meant to be played. Having to refuse to use voice chat or pretend to be male in order to enjoy the game doesn't really seem equitable does it? And "just as bad," is probably the wrong choice of words, it's just bad in a different way. Obviously it doesn't get much worse than death or rape threats. But the awkward neck-beards who pipe up with "omg a girl" as soon as she opens her mouth are contributing to the same bad environment where everyone but him is uncomfortable. How about we just treat her like another teammate rather than an elusive pokemon. You're a kid really if you believe hitting on a girl, even in such a clumsy manner as on the internet, is a "bad" behavior. Do you think all girls are weak little virgins that needs protection ? Sex is part of life, and men trying to find partners is absolutly normal. Never used voice communicator with strangers in games, didn't prevent me from achieving a good enough level. Its not bad behavior if you don't throw a fit if you get rejected in a most amazing manner. But unwanted sexual attention and the negative blow back that comes from rejecting said attention is something women deal with. http://www.theonion.com/articles/courageous-man-overcomes-womans-body-language-to-c,38152/This Onion article pretty much sums up the issue that women face with unwanted sexual attention. The article does not respond to my point at all. It's harassment, not hitting on a girl. And seriously, first world problem. You part of those people that believe unattractive men should not hit on girls ? I think that article is pretty clearly just saying that unwanted attention from clueless guys is annoying and is something that girls have to put up with.
Her "body language" is saying no it must mean he already made his move right ?
On March 10 2015 03:07 ZasZ. wrote:Show nested quote +On March 10 2015 02:53 WhiteDog wrote:On March 10 2015 02:47 ZasZ. wrote:On March 10 2015 02:37 WhiteDog wrote:Can we agree that revealing anything about yourself - being gender, skin color, religion preferences, sexual preferences, even political preferences - is a problem on the internet ? The ones who start flirting with her are just as bad as the ones who are mean Why ? That ridiculous not mean. Well gender is not really like any of those other things, especially if the game uses voice communication. If a female wants to play any MMO, LoL, or Dota at a semi-serious level, she will be on voice communication sooner rather than later and will not have a choice about revealing her gender. As for those other character traits, yeah I would find it a little strange if someone loaded up a game of Dota and declared to both teams "I am a black, agnostic, gay libertarian," but no one should be hostile if they did choose to say that. Most would probably assume they are a troll. But a woman reveals herself as female just by opening her mouth and participating in the game as it was meant to be played. Having to refuse to use voice chat or pretend to be male in order to enjoy the game doesn't really seem equitable does it? And "just as bad," is probably the wrong choice of words, it's just bad in a different way. Obviously it doesn't get much worse than death or rape threats. But the awkward neck-beards who pipe up with "omg a girl" as soon as she opens her mouth are contributing to the same bad environment where everyone but him is uncomfortable. How about we just treat her like another teammate rather than an elusive pokemon. You're a kid really if you believe hitting on a girl, even in such a clumsy manner as on the internet, is a "bad" behavior. Do you think all girls are weak little virgins that needs protection ? Sex is part of life, and men trying to find partners is absolutly normal. Never used voice communicator with strangers in games, didn't prevent me from achieving a good enough level. And you are sexist if you think unsolicited flirting has no right to make people feel uncomfortable. Look, in real life if you go up to a complete stranger and hit on them, it might work out. The more likely response is that person thinks you are a creep for not even starting up a casual conversation first, and blows you off. Also, "men trying to find partners is absolutely normal," makes my skin crawl. This isn't the African savannah during mating season, it's a video game. People have every right to feel uncomfortable when complete strangers flirt with them in a video game. And as a 3rd party, it makes me uncomfortable as hell too, but at least I am not the target. And just because you don't use voice communication doesn't mean that others don't. Depending on the game, many people consider it necessary to even be remotely competitive, and it is also very common in MMOs, which have a larger female demographic than many other gaming genres. Having played a lot of WoW in my time, if you had refused to use voice communication in one of the guilds I was in, it meant you weren't coming along.
Yes I am sexist now... Unsolicited flirting can make people feel uncomfortable, but that doesn't mean it is a bad behavior. There's ton of people that have difficulties entering places that are made for men and women to flirt : in my country, good luck going in a nice nightclub if you're a man with no girl to enter with, especially if you're not white. So, considering this, can I accept some people to flirt in weird places despite the inconvenience and - maybe - the possibility that it makes girls "uncomfortable" ?
This isn't the African savannah during mating season, it's a video game.
You know that's a racist comment right ?
And in MMOs you play with stranger ?
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On March 10 2015 03:06 levelping wrote:Show nested quote +On March 10 2015 03:03 WhiteDog wrote:On March 10 2015 03:00 Plansix wrote:On March 10 2015 02:53 WhiteDog wrote:On March 10 2015 02:47 ZasZ. wrote:On March 10 2015 02:37 WhiteDog wrote:Can we agree that revealing anything about yourself - being gender, skin color, religion preferences, sexual preferences, even political preferences - is a problem on the internet ? The ones who start flirting with her are just as bad as the ones who are mean Why ? That ridiculous not mean. Well gender is not really like any of those other things, especially if the game uses voice communication. If a female wants to play any MMO, LoL, or Dota at a semi-serious level, she will be on voice communication sooner rather than later and will not have a choice about revealing her gender. As for those other character traits, yeah I would find it a little strange if someone loaded up a game of Dota and declared to both teams "I am a black, agnostic, gay libertarian," but no one should be hostile if they did choose to say that. Most would probably assume they are a troll. But a woman reveals herself as female just by opening her mouth and participating in the game as it was meant to be played. Having to refuse to use voice chat or pretend to be male in order to enjoy the game doesn't really seem equitable does it? And "just as bad," is probably the wrong choice of words, it's just bad in a different way. Obviously it doesn't get much worse than death or rape threats. But the awkward neck-beards who pipe up with "omg a girl" as soon as she opens her mouth are contributing to the same bad environment where everyone but him is uncomfortable. How about we just treat her like another teammate rather than an elusive pokemon. You're a kid really if you believe hitting on a girl, even in such a clumsy manner as on the internet, is a "bad" behavior. Do you think all girls are weak little virgins that needs protection ? Sex is part of life, and men trying to find partners is absolutly normal. Never used voice communicator with strangers in games, didn't prevent me from achieving a good enough level. Its not bad behavior if you don't throw a fit if you get rejected in a most amazing manner. But unwanted sexual attention and the negative blow back that comes from rejecting said attention is something women deal with. http://www.theonion.com/articles/courageous-man-overcomes-womans-body-language-to-c,38152/This Onion article pretty much sums up the issue that women face with unwanted sexual attention. The article does not respond to my point at all. It's harassment, not hitting on a girl. And seriously, first world problem. You part of those people that believe unattractive men should not hit on girls ? I think that article is pretty clearly just saying that unwanted attention from clueless guys is annoying and is something that girls have to put up with.
And that when they have to rudely turn the guy down because he won't get the hint, they get treated like a jerk for not being appreciative of his attention. And trust me, most women know its coming a mile off when some clueless guy is going to ask them out and how hard they are going to have to work to get them to take the hint.
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The entire issue here is the response of the (white male) gaming community, and it mirrors the response of that same group in discussions of race/gender/religion.
Essentially, white males feel like they are being made out to be bad guys while minorities get particular attention due to widespread sexism/racism/etc. They respond by downplaying the sexism/racism/etc., and therefore look even more sexist/racist/etc.
The reality is that gaming is just another "good old boys club" of white males and we refuse to admit it. It is almost exclusively our culture and yet we demand that others accept the rampant sexism and racism in gaming culture. It's childish and selfish.
Not only this, but it displays a remarkable level of ignorance or arrogance to 1) claim that men are harassed just as much online and 2) that threatening to rape someone or calling someone the N word means the exact same thing regardless of the recipient. this is the kind of thing a normal person learns at a young age; calling a straight man a faggot is not as insulting as calling a gay man a faggot. Calling a white man the N word is not the same as calling a black man the N word. Threatening to rape a man is not the same as threatening to rape a woman. These all mean nothing to a white man and they can "just ignore it" because it isn't a fundamental part of their identity or experiences, whereas it is for the other groups I mentioned.
There are very few people (and almost none in mainstream discourse) that claim that all gamers are sexist. If that is what you think this is, it is a YOU problem. You are not "defending stereotyped gamers" or whatever. You are tacitly and subconsciously defending a sexist gaming culture that doesn't want to change. "Intent" is a lazy excuse. Sexism is sexism and racism is racism. It doesn't matter if it's because the perpetrator is an ass or because he actually believes those things.
White men don't understand thsee things because when we look in the mirror, we simply see "insert name here". What we don't understand is that when a woman looks in the mirror, she is FORCED to understand her identity partly based on her gender due to the discrimination she faces. When a black man looks in the mirror he is FORCED to be conscious of his blackness due to racism. When a gay man looks into the mirror, he is FORCED to define himself as gay due to rampant homophobia. If you do not understand this, then you are part of the problem.
If you are a white male gamer, then instead of defending yourself against non-existent attacks, just go home and APPRECIATE YOUR PRIVILEGE, say, "I am against sexism in gaming", and shut up. YOU ARE NOT THE VICTIM OF ANYTHING. The enemy in these discussions is racism/sexism/etc., and if you think that you are a victim and need to defend something because of this, then you are probably more bigoted than you realize, because all you're doing is defending discrimination in gaming culture.
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On March 10 2015 03:07 WhiteDog wrote:Show nested quote +On March 10 2015 03:06 levelping wrote:On March 10 2015 03:03 WhiteDog wrote:On March 10 2015 03:00 Plansix wrote:On March 10 2015 02:53 WhiteDog wrote:On March 10 2015 02:47 ZasZ. wrote:On March 10 2015 02:37 WhiteDog wrote:Can we agree that revealing anything about yourself - being gender, skin color, religion preferences, sexual preferences, even political preferences - is a problem on the internet ? The ones who start flirting with her are just as bad as the ones who are mean Why ? That ridiculous not mean. Well gender is not really like any of those other things, especially if the game uses voice communication. If a female wants to play any MMO, LoL, or Dota at a semi-serious level, she will be on voice communication sooner rather than later and will not have a choice about revealing her gender. As for those other character traits, yeah I would find it a little strange if someone loaded up a game of Dota and declared to both teams "I am a black, agnostic, gay libertarian," but no one should be hostile if they did choose to say that. Most would probably assume they are a troll. But a woman reveals herself as female just by opening her mouth and participating in the game as it was meant to be played. Having to refuse to use voice chat or pretend to be male in order to enjoy the game doesn't really seem equitable does it? And "just as bad," is probably the wrong choice of words, it's just bad in a different way. Obviously it doesn't get much worse than death or rape threats. But the awkward neck-beards who pipe up with "omg a girl" as soon as she opens her mouth are contributing to the same bad environment where everyone but him is uncomfortable. How about we just treat her like another teammate rather than an elusive pokemon. You're a kid really if you believe hitting on a girl, even in such a clumsy manner as on the internet, is a "bad" behavior. Do you think all girls are weak little virgins that needs protection ? Sex is part of life, and men trying to find partners is absolutly normal. Never used voice communicator with strangers in games, didn't prevent me from achieving a good enough level. Its not bad behavior if you don't throw a fit if you get rejected in a most amazing manner. But unwanted sexual attention and the negative blow back that comes from rejecting said attention is something women deal with. http://www.theonion.com/articles/courageous-man-overcomes-womans-body-language-to-c,38152/This Onion article pretty much sums up the issue that women face with unwanted sexual attention. The article does not respond to my point at all. It's harassment, not hitting on a girl. And seriously, first world problem. You part of those people that believe unattractive men should not hit on girls ? I think that article is pretty clearly just saying that unwanted attention from clueless guys is annoying and is something that girls have to put up with. Her "body language" is saying no it must mean he already made his move right ?
Um I'm not sure what point you are trying to make (is english your first language? No offence meant, just asking because of your France tag). The article is just mocking a situation where a girl is giving the "body language" of "no" to the guy, but the guy cannot take the hint and keeps going on anyway (i.e. keeps making moves even after the girl is indicating she is not interested). The girl gets annoyed and leaves. The article also implies that for the guy to hit on the girl like that is sometimes celebrated as being "manly" and "direct" (I think this is hinted at by the suggestion that the man in the article is a hero and very brave).
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On March 10 2015 03:11 levelping wrote:Show nested quote +On March 10 2015 03:07 WhiteDog wrote:On March 10 2015 03:06 levelping wrote:On March 10 2015 03:03 WhiteDog wrote:On March 10 2015 03:00 Plansix wrote:On March 10 2015 02:53 WhiteDog wrote:On March 10 2015 02:47 ZasZ. wrote:On March 10 2015 02:37 WhiteDog wrote:Can we agree that revealing anything about yourself - being gender, skin color, religion preferences, sexual preferences, even political preferences - is a problem on the internet ? The ones who start flirting with her are just as bad as the ones who are mean Why ? That ridiculous not mean. Well gender is not really like any of those other things, especially if the game uses voice communication. If a female wants to play any MMO, LoL, or Dota at a semi-serious level, she will be on voice communication sooner rather than later and will not have a choice about revealing her gender. As for those other character traits, yeah I would find it a little strange if someone loaded up a game of Dota and declared to both teams "I am a black, agnostic, gay libertarian," but no one should be hostile if they did choose to say that. Most would probably assume they are a troll. But a woman reveals herself as female just by opening her mouth and participating in the game as it was meant to be played. Having to refuse to use voice chat or pretend to be male in order to enjoy the game doesn't really seem equitable does it? And "just as bad," is probably the wrong choice of words, it's just bad in a different way. Obviously it doesn't get much worse than death or rape threats. But the awkward neck-beards who pipe up with "omg a girl" as soon as she opens her mouth are contributing to the same bad environment where everyone but him is uncomfortable. How about we just treat her like another teammate rather than an elusive pokemon. You're a kid really if you believe hitting on a girl, even in such a clumsy manner as on the internet, is a "bad" behavior. Do you think all girls are weak little virgins that needs protection ? Sex is part of life, and men trying to find partners is absolutly normal. Never used voice communicator with strangers in games, didn't prevent me from achieving a good enough level. Its not bad behavior if you don't throw a fit if you get rejected in a most amazing manner. But unwanted sexual attention and the negative blow back that comes from rejecting said attention is something women deal with. http://www.theonion.com/articles/courageous-man-overcomes-womans-body-language-to-c,38152/This Onion article pretty much sums up the issue that women face with unwanted sexual attention. The article does not respond to my point at all. It's harassment, not hitting on a girl. And seriously, first world problem. You part of those people that believe unattractive men should not hit on girls ? I think that article is pretty clearly just saying that unwanted attention from clueless guys is annoying and is something that girls have to put up with. Her "body language" is saying no it must mean he already made his move right ? Um I'm not sure what point you are trying to make (is english your first language? No offence meant, just asking because of your France tag). The article is just mocking a situation where a girl is giving the "body language" of "no" to the guy, but the guy cannot take the hint and keeps going on anyway (i.e. keeps making moves even after the girl is indicating she is not interested). The girl gets annoyed and leaves. The article also implies that for the guy to hit on the girl like that is sometimes celebrated as being "manly" and "direct" (I think this is hinted at by the suggestion that the man in the article is a hero and very brave).
Yeah english is not my first language.
Anyway, you don't seem to understand : the guy already made his move in the article. Zasz meanwhile suggest that just having attention toward women is a misconduct. Just asking out is no problem, sure if you keep going at it despite the girl saying no is a problem, those two things are entirely different.
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On March 10 2015 03:07 WhiteDog wrote:Show nested quote +On March 10 2015 03:06 levelping wrote:On March 10 2015 03:03 WhiteDog wrote:On March 10 2015 03:00 Plansix wrote:On March 10 2015 02:53 WhiteDog wrote:On March 10 2015 02:47 ZasZ. wrote:On March 10 2015 02:37 WhiteDog wrote:Can we agree that revealing anything about yourself - being gender, skin color, religion preferences, sexual preferences, even political preferences - is a problem on the internet ? The ones who start flirting with her are just as bad as the ones who are mean Why ? That ridiculous not mean. Well gender is not really like any of those other things, especially if the game uses voice communication. If a female wants to play any MMO, LoL, or Dota at a semi-serious level, she will be on voice communication sooner rather than later and will not have a choice about revealing her gender. As for those other character traits, yeah I would find it a little strange if someone loaded up a game of Dota and declared to both teams "I am a black, agnostic, gay libertarian," but no one should be hostile if they did choose to say that. Most would probably assume they are a troll. But a woman reveals herself as female just by opening her mouth and participating in the game as it was meant to be played. Having to refuse to use voice chat or pretend to be male in order to enjoy the game doesn't really seem equitable does it? And "just as bad," is probably the wrong choice of words, it's just bad in a different way. Obviously it doesn't get much worse than death or rape threats. But the awkward neck-beards who pipe up with "omg a girl" as soon as she opens her mouth are contributing to the same bad environment where everyone but him is uncomfortable. How about we just treat her like another teammate rather than an elusive pokemon. You're a kid really if you believe hitting on a girl, even in such a clumsy manner as on the internet, is a "bad" behavior. Do you think all girls are weak little virgins that needs protection ? Sex is part of life, and men trying to find partners is absolutly normal. Never used voice communicator with strangers in games, didn't prevent me from achieving a good enough level. Its not bad behavior if you don't throw a fit if you get rejected in a most amazing manner. But unwanted sexual attention and the negative blow back that comes from rejecting said attention is something women deal with. http://www.theonion.com/articles/courageous-man-overcomes-womans-body-language-to-c,38152/This Onion article pretty much sums up the issue that women face with unwanted sexual attention. The article does not respond to my point at all. It's harassment, not hitting on a girl. And seriously, first world problem. You part of those people that believe unattractive men should not hit on girls ? I think that article is pretty clearly just saying that unwanted attention from clueless guys is annoying and is something that girls have to put up with. Her "body language" is saying no it must mean he already made his move right ?
Pretty much yes. You can pretty much tell if a girl doesn't want your attention in the first 5 minutes of talking with her. Maybe even less if you are just introducing yourself for the first time.
Also, by making this advance, you are putting the woman an awkward situation. She doesn't want to be a jerk, but wants to be clear she isn't interested. The burden is on her to be both very clear and not to hurt the guys feelings. And when the person is socially awkward or just an idiot, its makes it even harder. Its why most of the single women I know have fake wedding/engagement rings for when they go out.
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+ Show Spoiler ++ Show Spoiler +On March 10 2015 03:00 levelping wrote:Show nested quote +On March 10 2015 02:54 Zambrah wrote:On March 10 2015 02:44 levelping wrote:On March 10 2015 02:39 Zambrah wrote:On March 10 2015 02:17 levelping wrote:On March 10 2015 02:12 zlefin wrote:On March 10 2015 01:41 Plansix wrote:On March 10 2015 01:36 wei2coolman wrote:I don't know if anyone watches fairly odd parents. But, there's this great episode on what illustrates a lot of what people are talking about this being a fairly non issue. It's the grey blob episode. So pretty much timmy is fed up with being bullied by the neighborhood dentist and his son. So he makes a wish that everyone was exactly the same. So everyone in the world turn in grey blobs, and the entire world is shades of grey. He then goes to visit the dentist and his son to claim that they can no longer make fun of him since they were exactly the same. Guess what the dentist and the son say? They claim that they're the greyest of the grey blobs and blobbiest of blobs and that Timmy was not as good as them. In the end, timmy reaches the conclusion that assholes are going to be assholes no matter what, so you should just be proud of who you are. link to synopsis So harassment of women gaming isn't an issue because this cartoon on Cartoon Network told you so, even though the New York Times(and every other news major new agency) is reporting otherwise? I'm not sure where you get this response, as it seems wholly different from what the post you quoted talked about. It also feels oddly and needlessly aggressive. Well I am not sure how anyone is supposed to seriously respond to an argument based on an episode of a cartoon. And anyway I'm not even sure what is the point that is being made - no one is asking that everyone on the internet act in the same one. Just be polite (e.g. no more rape jokes), and respect your other gamers, some of whom are female. Im not sure why the fact that its a cartoon necessarily invalidates it's point, but the point hes making isnt necessarily that everyone should just be the same so much as that dicks are going to be dicks and that rather than try to change everyone around him he should have just accepted that they're going to be dicks and not to take their shit to heart. It would be nice if people wouldn't be dicks but thats the kind of change that can be expected to take a longer period of time, the way I tend to see it is that in the meantime you have to make do, if I ever dip my feet in WoW's trade chat I'm prepared to be called faggot, bitch, get told to get fucked by 12 inch black dildos in the ass, and if they discover I'm hispanic I can expect the usual racial slurs, which sucks, but in the meantime I have to just not be in trade chat, which is a shame, but I think an important part of being a part of an online community is having the mental fortitude to separate yourselves from the many cesspools that exist around whatever game you're playing. I stick to my guild chat with good, friendly people who aren't going to repeatedly tell me to go get fucked in the mouth with 100 tiny dildos, in an ideal world people would just not tell me to get fucked in the mouth with 100 tiny dildos, but we don't live in that perfect world and in the meantime I make do. I dont think the cartoon makes a perfect example for the long term, but in the meantime some solutions are really to grow thicker skin, or disassociate yourself with fuckwits. Hopefully in the future these cesspools will shrink, but I'm willing to bet they won't be gone tomorrow, so you have to make do. Eventually if enough people choose not to associate with the fuckwits they'll be choked out or secluded and hopefully out of the general environment enough to have a more pleasurable gaming experience. Thats an ideal world though, and maybe internet anonymity will keep the cesspools live and well. Just to make it perfectly clear I am NOT saying girls just need to toughen the fuck up and let the gaming sphere remain as it is forever, I'm saying they'll have to accept some intermittent solutions to make gaming more tolerable because this sort of change just can't happen over night, when tomorrow comes the fuckwits will wake up and their fuckwittery will continue. It sucks, but thats kind of the reality of the situation, at least for the near future. But don't you see that adopting a "well everyone is going to be a dick, so toughen up" even as a temporary measure just validates people being dicks, and more importantly, prevents an important discussion on a long term solution. If everyone just puts up with rudeness and harassment then where's the impetus to address such rudeness and harassment? And don't you see how as male gamers who do not face the same sort of harassment as girls, it is rather presumptive to tell other people to just toughen up to problems that we do not really face? Im just not particularly sure what the alternative solution is for the mean time. Do girls just stop playing games? That would suck. I know female gamers that have already "toughened up" which is a crappy way to phrase it actually, they've just found places where people aren't fuckwits to one another and they enjoy their time with people who aren't, well, fuckwits. Though some really do just kind of shrug it off, they can do that, some people can't do that, which is fine, takes a great deal of fortitude not to be ground down by the incessant waves of asininity (is that a word.) I mean whats the alternative? Do you just drown in the sea of vitriol? While the discussions happen time won't halt and the idiots won't just subside out of politeness. The alternative to learning to deal with the shit/avoiding the shit is to just not game and I consider that to be the lesser of the three options. It sucks that those are the options for now, but Im not sure what else is to be done. This sort of change just doesn't happen over night. I don't think that anyone, least of all the makers of the documentary, are expecting change over night. But these discussions are still important because they (a) raise awareness of the issue of sexual harassment; (b) of the issue of passive sexim; and (c) let new people coming into the community know that this is a live issue which is being discussed and they cannot expect a free pass with whatever racist/sexist/homphobic nonsense they might spout. TL's moderation stance on some of these issues is probably a good example of the small steps that we can be taken. I mean even if it's a situation of you telling someone else off on line for making a rape threat etc, yeah in the short run it will probably not amount to much (you'd get called a SJW or whatever is trending these days), but if enough people start to make clear that such behaviour is not being tolerated then we are heading somewhere. Wasn't it quite recent that some Starcraft personalities got fired/punished for saying stupid things on stream (can't remember the details).
But what do female gamers do about it now? Again, I'm not saying we just shouldn't have discussions about the way females are being treated in games, its pretty heinous, what I'm saying is that those discussions aren't changing things immediately and what other options do we have to make gaming more pleasant for female gamers in the present rather than the future, than for them to 1. adopt thicker skins, 2. stay out of vitriolic cesspools. It just seems to me that people refuse to accept that sometimes you have take some personal action, the world can't immediately change around you, sometimes you have to do this sort of thing. Which, again, sucks. But what are the real alternatives?
Discussions are great, I think they're less great for changing people's minds (at least for this particular issue which seems to be super polarizing), but what they can do is encourage people who already hold these beliefs to be more confident in practicing their beliefs in a more forward way. I think thats the future, people eventually phasing out the fuckwits as it becomes less mainstream and acceptable to be a fuckwit. For the future, discussions are great, but it confuses me that people would refuse to take certain measures to have a more pleasant gaming experience out of some idealist principle. We just don't live in that idealist world, in the future the world will hopefully be more like that ideal, and making it more mainstream and common to hold beliefs that don't tolerate fuckwittery are definitely the future, but I just don't believe they're the present, and it seems like both sides are arguing with a different schedule of change in mind.
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On March 10 2015 03:14 WhiteDog wrote:Show nested quote +On March 10 2015 03:11 levelping wrote:On March 10 2015 03:07 WhiteDog wrote:On March 10 2015 03:06 levelping wrote:On March 10 2015 03:03 WhiteDog wrote:On March 10 2015 03:00 Plansix wrote:On March 10 2015 02:53 WhiteDog wrote:On March 10 2015 02:47 ZasZ. wrote:On March 10 2015 02:37 WhiteDog wrote:Can we agree that revealing anything about yourself - being gender, skin color, religion preferences, sexual preferences, even political preferences - is a problem on the internet ? The ones who start flirting with her are just as bad as the ones who are mean Why ? That ridiculous not mean. Well gender is not really like any of those other things, especially if the game uses voice communication. If a female wants to play any MMO, LoL, or Dota at a semi-serious level, she will be on voice communication sooner rather than later and will not have a choice about revealing her gender. As for those other character traits, yeah I would find it a little strange if someone loaded up a game of Dota and declared to both teams "I am a black, agnostic, gay libertarian," but no one should be hostile if they did choose to say that. Most would probably assume they are a troll. But a woman reveals herself as female just by opening her mouth and participating in the game as it was meant to be played. Having to refuse to use voice chat or pretend to be male in order to enjoy the game doesn't really seem equitable does it? And "just as bad," is probably the wrong choice of words, it's just bad in a different way. Obviously it doesn't get much worse than death or rape threats. But the awkward neck-beards who pipe up with "omg a girl" as soon as she opens her mouth are contributing to the same bad environment where everyone but him is uncomfortable. How about we just treat her like another teammate rather than an elusive pokemon. You're a kid really if you believe hitting on a girl, even in such a clumsy manner as on the internet, is a "bad" behavior. Do you think all girls are weak little virgins that needs protection ? Sex is part of life, and men trying to find partners is absolutly normal. Never used voice communicator with strangers in games, didn't prevent me from achieving a good enough level. Its not bad behavior if you don't throw a fit if you get rejected in a most amazing manner. But unwanted sexual attention and the negative blow back that comes from rejecting said attention is something women deal with. http://www.theonion.com/articles/courageous-man-overcomes-womans-body-language-to-c,38152/This Onion article pretty much sums up the issue that women face with unwanted sexual attention. The article does not respond to my point at all. It's harassment, not hitting on a girl. And seriously, first world problem. You part of those people that believe unattractive men should not hit on girls ? I think that article is pretty clearly just saying that unwanted attention from clueless guys is annoying and is something that girls have to put up with. Her "body language" is saying no it must mean he already made his move right ? Um I'm not sure what point you are trying to make (is english your first language? No offence meant, just asking because of your France tag). The article is just mocking a situation where a girl is giving the "body language" of "no" to the guy, but the guy cannot take the hint and keeps going on anyway (i.e. keeps making moves even after the girl is indicating she is not interested). The girl gets annoyed and leaves. The article also implies that for the guy to hit on the girl like that is sometimes celebrated as being "manly" and "direct" (I think this is hinted at by the suggestion that the man in the article is a hero and very brave). Yeah english is not my first language. Anyway, you don't seem to understand : the guy already made his move in the article. Zasz meanwhile suggest that just having attention toward women is a misconduct. Just asking out is no problem, sure if you keep going at it despite the girl saying no is a problem, those two things are entirely different.
I understood Zasz as making a point about unwanted attention, and not that guys should never pull the moves on a girl online. Maybe it was not too clear in his post. The article is reflective of what I have sometimes seen in games - guy tries to hit on girl, is politely let down, but guy does not take hint and keeps going. This gets very uncomfortable for the girl, obviously.
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EPT
