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On March 09 2015 23:52 levelping wrote:
I have an honest question to everyone saying that these women are playing the victim. Here's a crazy thought, if everyone is really having a really shitty time being harassed online, what's so wrong about starting to tackle this big problem with gender based harassment and then going on to tackle other areas like.homophobia or whatever harassment straight white males suffer from. Why not just start some where? Are you really expecting everyone to come to some collective conference and promise to end all harassment at the exact same time?
Actually that should be the expectation.
If people want to tackle a big problem this big they should appeal to the interest of as much people as they can. The over arching goal is here is to tell people to stop being scumbags online. Telling people "female" have it worst is not adding anything to the solving the problem. Yes it IS an example of a problem, but it is still a branch of the major problem. Which again is, stop being scumbags online. If people do it once (addressing there is sexism online), yes that's great. They are addressing the problem, once. But they are only relying on this singular point and aren't providing a strong follow up argument that would help them make their point. There is much more they could do. They could have easily taken the video from a male perspective as well, add their point of view in and suddenly you have much stronger example of the problem.
People aren't against supporting equality movements. It is the most logical statement in our time. But people are not going to go out of their way to put additional effort to things they aren't already doing. It's the (well I don't kick and scream at females. I tell my friends not to do that. I just want to play my game and hey if some girls want to play why not? How is any of this relevance to me?)
TL:DR
A person weakens their argument, if their main premise becomes stuck in a perpetual state of "but I have it worst." (Here being female)
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On March 10 2015 00:09 Ghostcom wrote:
To briefly answer that: 1) Why only focus on one type of harassment at a time? Are you really expecting that those perpetrating harassment have divided themselves into groups where each group only perpetrates one kind of harassment (your snarky remark at the end seems to suggest so)? Or could it be that for harassment to stop a broader change of mindset would be required? I think most people who are against focusing on one type of harassment has understood that and are in fact not the cave-man y'all trying to make them look like.
2) Victimization as a means to end inequality has never worked for anyone. What has worked has always been empowering those groups to start fighting for their rights - the other part really only cements the mindset that women are some sort of frail beings who needs the protection of society/men. Obviously they do not.
1) is a very legitimate question. As it happens, only focusing on one type of harassment---or more accurately, how one type of harassment affects a specific group of people---is actually pretty defensible in the social sciences. In fact, much social research narrows itself to a certain group to study broad trends. It seems pretty reasonable to study, say, "the impact of globalization on the South African middle class," even though globalization is a trend that affects the whole globe and we don't necessarily know (at least I don't) whether the South African middle class is markedly different in its response to globalization from the Indian middle class. Similarly, it seems reasonable to study "the impact of harassment on female video game players," even if more than female video game players are subject to harassment. In both cases, it is conceivable that one might learn something useful, despite (or perhaps even because of) the limited scope.
It is not immediately clear to me that the documentary argues 2), unless you define "victimization" as "letting someone know when you get harassed." This seems at risk of becoming a catch-22: part of empowerment surely means exposing and working against harassment with the support of others, and yet any time one does so one is victimizing oneself. Can we claim that going to the trouble of making and publishing this documentary is just an act of rolling over and asking for a kickback from men? Or is it in fact the very thing you call for, a moment in which women attempt to fight for their rights?
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On March 10 2015 00:27 Ghostcom wrote:Show nested quote +On March 10 2015 00:19 Plansix wrote:On March 10 2015 00:09 Ghostcom wrote:On March 09 2015 23:52 Plansix wrote:On March 09 2015 23:47 Ghostcom wrote:
My question was if they experienced more harassment online, not only sexual harassment which you then chose to focus on. As has been pointed out before by others those flinging shit are trying to elicit the biggest response and thus the type of harassment will depend on what registers the biggest response. Most men shrug sexual harassment off (but it does exist), hence that is seldom the type of harassment men receive. I am not sure why one kind of harassment should be worse than the other and would really like to see something done about all harassment, however I'm not sure what can be done. Victimising, however, has never helped. Lets assume everyone receives the same amount of harassment online. Then lets add is sexual harassment, which endless studies have proven women receive more of. Thats the point, that women receive all the normal stuff involved with gaming(which isn't great) and a truck load of sexual harassment if she is openly a woman online. I have yet to see any evidence that the sexual harassment is added on top. In my experience it replaces the harassment directed towards guys when people find out that she is a girl. It seems our opinions simply differ here and without any solid data we can't figure out who is right. So sexual harassment is ok because its the internet and harassment is common? Gee, I can't think why this article points out that the gaming community as whole dismisses sexual harassment as an issue. I'm also pretty sure that I have multiple times stated that no kind of harassment was okay and that ALL harassment was an issue. You just can't refrain from straw-manning and shit-posting. Shame on you.
I am extremely dismissive of the whole "all harassment is important and women don't need to be a huge focus when dealing with it" It is a way to diminish the problem while also claiming you support dealing with the issue If you think that harassment isn't ok and people should deal with it, then let them deal with it. If their focus is harassment against women, then don't pontificate on how you think they should be dealing with the issue, while also downplaying the severity of the issues.
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On March 10 2015 00:30 Velr wrote:
Is it really so hard to understand?
Assholes are gonna Insult you no matter what. If your a Woman you most likely get sexist attacks. If your black you’ll probably get racist remarks. If your German you’ll get Nazi bat in your face…
It isn’t sexism because these assholes are sexist, it’s just assholes being assholes and going for the insults/attacks/strategies that supposedly „hurt“ their target the most.
I think no one said anything against attempts to controll/punish these people for this behaviour (which is hard, else we wouldn’t have this discussion at all, companies constantly try to do something about it). I and many others just don’t think this is about sexism (or any other thing of that sort) in general…
Well then, if that's the case the at the end of the day don't you think you're making a lot of noise just to quibble about the label that should be put on the effort to combat harassment? The efforts behind this documentary tries to solve the sexist attacks women face. There are other incidences where gaming companies etc punish members for using racially insensitive and homophobic remarks. So in the end all this goes towards educating people to have better online manners which we can all agree with.
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Girl gamers usually do not understand or grasp how to ignore the trolls and know that they are just immature kids. BM happens everywhere and it affects people of all genders and ages, not just girls :o Though, admittedly, girls do get harassed much more often than men.
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On March 10 2015 00:35 vult wrote:
Girl gamers usually do not understand or grasp how to ignore the trolls and know that they are just immature kids. BM happens everywhere and it affects people of all genders and ages, not just girls :o Though, admittedly, girls do get harassed much more often than men.
Except when they are creepy stalkers and adult men, which is what the article talks about. So its pretty safe to assume you didn't read it.
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On March 10 2015 00:30 Velr wrote:
Is it really so hard to understand?
Assholes are gonna Insult you no matter what. If your a Woman you most likely get sexist attacks. If your black you’ll probably get racist remarks. If your German you’ll get Nazi bat in your face…
It isn’t sexism because these assholes are sexist, it’s just assholes being assholes and going for the insults/attacks/strategies that supposedly „hurt“ their target the most.
I think no one said anything against attempts to controll/punish these people for this behaviour (which is hard, else we wouldn’t have this discussion at all, companies constantly try to do something about it). I and many others just don’t think this is about sexism (or any other thing of that sort) in general…
Agreed.
And we should try to slap those guys a STOP sign into the face in every way possible. When they behave racist, stop their racism, when they behave sexist, stop their sexism.
Cant be too hard to behave like a decent human being, even when you dont agree on everything with the other folks online.
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On March 10 2015 00:30 Velr wrote:
Is it really so hard to understand?
Assholes are gonna Insult you no matter what. If your a Woman you most likely get Sexist rewards. If your black you’ll probably get racist remarks. If your German you’ll get Nazi remarks…
It isn’t sexism because these assholes are sexist, it’s just assholes being assholes and going for the insults/attacks/strategies that supposedly „hurt“ their target the most.
I think no one said anything against attempts to controll/punish these people for this behaviour (which is hard, else we wouldn’t have this discussion at all, companies constantly try to do something about it). I and many others just don’t think this is about sexism (or any other thing of that sort) in general…
The thing about this is it may or may not be true, which we'll just consider irrelevant and move on, but it comes with the backing of there being a low women representation in certain areas of gaming (notably the higher end of competitive gaming). Like games like LoL and WoW are estimated to be somewhere 60-70% male. Even worse are the people making games being 80% male. Women being harassed online gets notable attention specifically because there this representation gap that would be nice if it didn't exist and one plausible cause of the lack of representation is the harassment that women receive.
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On March 10 2015 00:33 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On March 10 2015 00:27 Ghostcom wrote:On March 10 2015 00:19 Plansix wrote:On March 10 2015 00:09 Ghostcom wrote:On March 09 2015 23:52 Plansix wrote:On March 09 2015 23:47 Ghostcom wrote:
My question was if they experienced more harassment online, not only sexual harassment which you then chose to focus on. As has been pointed out before by others those flinging shit are trying to elicit the biggest response and thus the type of harassment will depend on what registers the biggest response. Most men shrug sexual harassment off (but it does exist), hence that is seldom the type of harassment men receive. I am not sure why one kind of harassment should be worse than the other and would really like to see something done about all harassment, however I'm not sure what can be done. Victimising, however, has never helped. Lets assume everyone receives the same amount of harassment online. Then lets add is sexual harassment, which endless studies have proven women receive more of. Thats the point, that women receive all the normal stuff involved with gaming(which isn't great) and a truck load of sexual harassment if she is openly a woman online. I have yet to see any evidence that the sexual harassment is added on top. In my experience it replaces the harassment directed towards guys when people find out that she is a girl. It seems our opinions simply differ here and without any solid data we can't figure out who is right. So sexual harassment is ok because its the internet and harassment is common? Gee, I can't think why this article points out that the gaming community as whole dismisses sexual harassment as an issue. I'm also pretty sure that I have multiple times stated that no kind of harassment was okay and that ALL harassment was an issue. You just can't refrain from straw-manning and shit-posting. Shame on you. I am extremely dismissive of the whole "all harassment is important and women don't need to be a huge focus when dealing with it" It is a way to diminish the problem while also claiming you support dealing with the issue If you think that harassment isn't ok and people should deal with it, then let them deal with it. If their focus is harassment against women, then don't pontificate on how you think they should be dealing with the issue, while also downplaying the severity of the issues.
Me wanting you to not put words in my mouth is not pontificating. It is called having a civil debate. What you did was trying to shame me into silence instead of trying to counter my arguments. Me walking away does not make you right. You are still nothing more than a shit-poster, no matter how you try to redact it now. Bye.
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On March 10 2015 00:41 Logo wrote:Show nested quote +On March 10 2015 00:30 Velr wrote:
Is it really so hard to understand?
Assholes are gonna Insult you no matter what. If your a Woman you most likely get Sexist rewards. If your black you’ll probably get racist remarks. If your German you’ll get Nazi remarks…
It isn’t sexism because these assholes are sexist, it’s just assholes being assholes and going for the insults/attacks/strategies that supposedly „hurt“ their target the most.
I think no one said anything against attempts to controll/punish these people for this behaviour (which is hard, else we wouldn’t have this discussion at all, companies constantly try to do something about it). I and many others just don’t think this is about sexism (or any other thing of that sort) in general…
The thing about this is it may or may not be true, which we'll just consider irrelevant and move on, but it comes with the backing of there being a low women representation in certain areas of gaming (notably the higher end of competitive gaming). Like games like LoL and WoW are estimated to be somewhere 60-70% male. Even worse are the people making games being 80% male. Women being harassed online gets notable attention specifically because there this representation gap that would be nice if it didn't exist and one plausible cause of the lack of representation is the harassment that women receive.
On game making I can just imagine the women when they walk by the "Boob Physics" group on the dev team. Must be a strange feeling being torn between telling them how ridiculous what they are doing is and telling them how terrible of a job they are doing at it.
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On March 10 2015 00:43 Ghostcom wrote:Show nested quote +On March 10 2015 00:33 Plansix wrote:On March 10 2015 00:27 Ghostcom wrote:On March 10 2015 00:19 Plansix wrote:On March 10 2015 00:09 Ghostcom wrote:On March 09 2015 23:52 Plansix wrote:On March 09 2015 23:47 Ghostcom wrote:
My question was if they experienced more harassment online, not only sexual harassment which you then chose to focus on. As has been pointed out before by others those flinging shit are trying to elicit the biggest response and thus the type of harassment will depend on what registers the biggest response. Most men shrug sexual harassment off (but it does exist), hence that is seldom the type of harassment men receive. I am not sure why one kind of harassment should be worse than the other and would really like to see something done about all harassment, however I'm not sure what can be done. Victimising, however, has never helped. Lets assume everyone receives the same amount of harassment online. Then lets add is sexual harassment, which endless studies have proven women receive more of. Thats the point, that women receive all the normal stuff involved with gaming(which isn't great) and a truck load of sexual harassment if she is openly a woman online. I have yet to see any evidence that the sexual harassment is added on top. In my experience it replaces the harassment directed towards guys when people find out that she is a girl. It seems our opinions simply differ here and without any solid data we can't figure out who is right. So sexual harassment is ok because its the internet and harassment is common? Gee, I can't think why this article points out that the gaming community as whole dismisses sexual harassment as an issue. I'm also pretty sure that I have multiple times stated that no kind of harassment was okay and that ALL harassment was an issue. You just can't refrain from straw-manning and shit-posting. Shame on you. I am extremely dismissive of the whole "all harassment is important and women don't need to be a huge focus when dealing with it" It is a way to diminish the problem while also claiming you support dealing with the issue If you think that harassment isn't ok and people should deal with it, then let them deal with it. If their focus is harassment against women, then don't pontificate on how you think they should be dealing with the issue, while also downplaying the severity of the issues. Me wanting you to not put words in my mouth is not pontificating. It is called having a civil debate. What you did was trying to shame me into silence instead of trying to counter my arguments. Me walking away does not make you right. You are still nothing more than a shit-poster, no matter how you try to redact it now. Bye.
I think the key to having a civil debate is to not have an argument which can be summed up with "I am totally all about dealing with harassment, but I really don't think all this talk about harassment against women is a big deal." Its sort of leads to responses like mine who have heard this same points regurgitated over and over for the last 9 months.
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On March 10 2015 00:39 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On March 10 2015 00:35 vult wrote:
Girl gamers usually do not understand or grasp how to ignore the trolls and know that they are just immature kids. BM happens everywhere and it affects people of all genders and ages, not just girls :o Though, admittedly, girls do get harassed much more often than men. Except when they are creepy stalkers and adult men, which is what the article talks about. So its pretty safe to assume you didn't read it.
Even beyond that it's setting up a double standard. Like if a male gamer wasn't good at ignoring trolls and did some big thing on it people might call him whiny or whatever, but the reaction wouldn't be the same at all. Yet because it's female gamer any mistake or misstep is suddenly a huge deal and giant affront to the sanctity of gaming.
And that's part of the problem too, like a bunch of people in this thread said something like, "I don't care if the person I am playing with is female so long as they are good" shows the problem attitude as well even if meant innocently. Like so what if they are good or not? Female gamers should be allowed to be as crappy as anyone else and a big part of the problem as stated is that these female gamers are being held to higher standards than male gamers that alienate them from the gaming communities. Basically it's ok to be Scarlett because she's perfect and doesn't fall victim to the trolls and plays really well, but it's not ok to be a bronze level trash player who doesn't like online abuse even though it's perfectly ok for guys to be like that.
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On March 09 2015 23:30 Ghostcom wrote:Yes, people online a ruder and mean towards women than in real life, but the same goes for men
The thing is, that's not precisely true.
In the real world, boys and young men tend to tone down their bad behaviour in mixed company, and tend to trade insults with other boys in preference to the girls.
But online, where genders are unclear, it's obvious that many boys and young men act out as if they were in male-only company. By default. This in itself is unconscious sexism: the presumption that a gaming space is male territory.
Many people who describe themselves as 'not sexist' nevertheless defend this attitude. They say that abuse comes with the territory and that girls should just put up with it - even if that's not how they themselves would behave in real-life mixed company.
That's worth saying again: guys who describe themselves as non-sexist insist that girls should be the ones who conform in order to allow boys to continue to behave as though only other boys were around.
Coming at it from the other side, girls gaming online suddenly find themselves hit with the full force of male aggression and abuse - something that only happens in certain very unpleasant and intimidating real-life situations. And when a few girls point this out and say "All these big games with big marketing budgets reinforce the idea that gaming is for guys by endlessly depicting girls in certain ways", they get branded as social justice warriors.
I don't see it as social justice. I see it as social convention. You can't call gaming 'inclusive' when so many male gamers violently resist the idea that they should behave online as they would in real-life mixed company.
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On March 10 2015 00:43 Ghostcom wrote:Show nested quote +On March 10 2015 00:33 Plansix wrote:On March 10 2015 00:27 Ghostcom wrote:On March 10 2015 00:19 Plansix wrote:On March 10 2015 00:09 Ghostcom wrote:On March 09 2015 23:52 Plansix wrote:On March 09 2015 23:47 Ghostcom wrote:
My question was if they experienced more harassment online, not only sexual harassment which you then chose to focus on. As has been pointed out before by others those flinging shit are trying to elicit the biggest response and thus the type of harassment will depend on what registers the biggest response. Most men shrug sexual harassment off (but it does exist), hence that is seldom the type of harassment men receive. I am not sure why one kind of harassment should be worse than the other and would really like to see something done about all harassment, however I'm not sure what can be done. Victimising, however, has never helped. Lets assume everyone receives the same amount of harassment online. Then lets add is sexual harassment, which endless studies have proven women receive more of. Thats the point, that women receive all the normal stuff involved with gaming(which isn't great) and a truck load of sexual harassment if she is openly a woman online. I have yet to see any evidence that the sexual harassment is added on top. In my experience it replaces the harassment directed towards guys when people find out that she is a girl. It seems our opinions simply differ here and without any solid data we can't figure out who is right. So sexual harassment is ok because its the internet and harassment is common? Gee, I can't think why this article points out that the gaming community as whole dismisses sexual harassment as an issue. I'm also pretty sure that I have multiple times stated that no kind of harassment was okay and that ALL harassment was an issue. You just can't refrain from straw-manning and shit-posting. Shame on you. I am extremely dismissive of the whole "all harassment is important and women don't need to be a huge focus when dealing with it" It is a way to diminish the problem while also claiming you support dealing with the issue If you think that harassment isn't ok and people should deal with it, then let them deal with it. If their focus is harassment against women, then don't pontificate on how you think they should be dealing with the issue, while also downplaying the severity of the issues. Me wanting you to not put words in my mouth is not pontificating. It is called having a civil debate. What you did was trying to shame me into silence instead of trying to counter my arguments. Me walking away does not make you right. You are still nothing more than a shit-poster, no matter how you try to redact it now. Bye.
His reference to potification is not about your comments on strawman, I think that should be fairly obvious from the context. No one is shaming you into silence of anything, that's just a very odd thing to claim. As fair as I understand your argument was:
Women do not appear to be suffering any additional harassment than men generally do online, and there is no hard evidence to back this claim. Harassment is bad, but women are just part of a wider problem.
He responded by saying that women put up with sexual harassment generally in real life, and this translates into more additional harassment online. He then also said, it is somewhat intellecually dishonest to on one hand say that harssment generally is a problem, but then when women try to solve a specific form of harassment, you seem to expect them to prove that they are suffering some kind of special damage. If you real point is that harassment is endemic, an effort to solve it, however specific, should be welcomed.
Other posts have also point out that practically, the issue is being solved in a somewhat piece-meal manner by various groups experiencing discrimnation, and that's good (as well as reflective of other civil rights trends in real life).
You then leave the thread in a huff, not before making the bare claim that Plainsix is a shit poster, "no matter what you say now".
Okay.
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On March 09 2015 22:37 Simberto wrote:
No. The problem is that you tell guys that they are assholes, and most guys don't like being told they are assholes. I am a gamer. I am not sexist. But if you say gamers are sexist, you are saying that i am sexist. I do not like being told that i am sexist, thus i will oppose that.
But shouldn't you better oppose sexism itself instead of the people crying sexism? As far as I see it this is what is going on:
1) There is a lot of sexism in the gaming community. (Not by everyone, maybe even only by a small fraction of idiots, and even there many might not mean it - but it is most certainly there)
2) Femal gamers are pissed off by that.
3) They try to change this. One natural way is to make a documentary to raise awareness and spark discussion.
That is understandable, is it not?
Crucially, the only long term, stable solution I see is to change point (1). Because female gamers wont stop being pissed off by sexism, and they wont stop trying to get rid of it. But I can see a future where sexist remarks is something gamers just dont do. While people get upset for being called sexist although they aren't (like you, and I get that), I think a lot of people can live with not blurring out sexist remarks at every opportunity. It works in real life at least.
What I am trying to say, is that opposing the feminist movement in gaming is pointless because this movement won't stop. Opposing it will only look like it proves its point, making the movement stronger. Reducing sexism, while it may seem a far fetched goal, is much more realistic.
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On March 10 2015 00:47 Logo wrote:
Even beyond that it's setting up a double standard. Like if a male gamer wasn't good at ignoring trolls and did some big thing on it people might call him whiny or whatever, but the reaction wouldn't be the same at all. Yet because it's female gamer any mistake or misstep is suddenly a huge deal and giant affront to the sanctity of gaming.
And that's part of the problem too, like a bunch of people in this thread said something like, "I don't care if the person I am playing with is female so long as they are good" shows the problem attitude as well even if meant innocently. Like so what if they are good or not?
Actually I believe you are missing the point on that one. What they are saying, is that when they are playing they don't care about who that other player is so long as they are "good". Because the objective is to win they want to have as many "good" players on their team as possible regardless of who they are outside of the game (They couldn't care if the other player was a cat.)
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On March 10 2015 00:52 MadeOfCotton wrote:Show nested quote +On March 09 2015 22:37 Simberto wrote:
No. The problem is that you tell guys that they are assholes, and most guys don't like being told they are assholes. I am a gamer. I am not sexist. But if you say gamers are sexist, you are saying that i am sexist. I do not like being told that i am sexist, thus i will oppose that. But shouldn't you better oppose sexism itself instead of the people crying sexism? As far as I see it this is what is going on: 1) There is a lot of sexism in the gaming community. (Not by everyone, maybe even only by a small fraction of idiots, and even there many might not mean it - but it is most certainly there) 2) Femal gamers are pissed off by that. 3) They try to change this. One natural way is to make a documentary to raise awareness and spark discussion. That is understandable, is it not? Crucially, the only long term, stable solution I see is to change point (1). Because female gamers wont stop being pissed off by sexism, and they wont stop trying to get rid of it. But I can see a future where sexist remarks is something gamers just dont do. While people get upset for being called sexist although they aren't (like you, and I get that), I think a lot of people can live with not blurring out sexist remarks at every opportunity. It works in real life at least. What I am trying to say, is that opposing the feminist movement in gaming is pointless because this movement won't stop. Opposing it will only look like it proves its point, making the movement stronger. Reducing sexism, while it may seem a far fetched goal, is much more realistic.
A funny thing is that when you take a deep breath and step back for a bit, I am sure we can all agree that we don't need to be making remarks about rape etc to enjoy our games. So we aren't even being asked to give up anything essential to the gaming experience.
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On March 10 2015 00:55 levelping wrote:
A funny thing is that when you take a deep breath and step back for a bit, I am sure we can all agree that we don't need to be making remarks about rape etc to enjoy our games. So we aren't even being asked to give up anything essential to the gaming experience.
It's not so much as to people are opposing the movement itself but rather they are opposing how this is being done. (Mainly because of it's way of portraying things)
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On March 10 2015 00:54 Hyaciao wrote:Show nested quote +On March 10 2015 00:47 Logo wrote:
Even beyond that it's setting up a double standard. Like if a male gamer wasn't good at ignoring trolls and did some big thing on it people might call him whiny or whatever, but the reaction wouldn't be the same at all. Yet because it's female gamer any mistake or misstep is suddenly a huge deal and giant affront to the sanctity of gaming.
And that's part of the problem too, like a bunch of people in this thread said something like, "I don't care if the person I am playing with is female so long as they are good" shows the problem attitude as well even if meant innocently. Like so what if they are good or not? Actually I believe you are missing the point on that one. What they are saying, is that when they are playing they don't care about who that other player is so long as they are "good". Because the objective is to win they want to have as many "good" players on their team as possible regardless of who they are outside of the game (They couldn't care if the other player was a cat.)
I qualified it as meant innocently for that exact reason. It is true many people mean it like that when they say it, but it still is very alienating. Yes it alienates anyone when you try to and discourage people from playing, "if they're not good" but it's a saying that's usually made against specific groups, and often women specifically.
Even though it's meant to be inclusive, the way it's said and the underlying tone of it suggests that women who aren't confident in their online skills should just stay away and give up which is alienating not inclusive. Especially when it's backed up with the reality or perception that if said woman is not good they will receive specific targeted harassment based on their gender.
Yes it may not be that much worse than if woman was swapped for another identifier, but it's not; it's almost exclusively said about women and it also plays into a common social trend of tearing down woman's confidence. Like studies have suggested that a big part of why women are underrepresented in areas like top competitive gaming is because they're instilled to have less confidence in their abilities by external social pressures, not because they're inherently any less skilled per time spent in the game.
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On March 10 2015 01:02 Hyaciao wrote:Show nested quote +On March 10 2015 00:55 levelping wrote:
A funny thing is that when you take a deep breath and step back for a bit, I am sure we can all agree that we don't need to be making remarks about rape etc to enjoy our games. So we aren't even being asked to give up anything essential to the gaming experience. It's not so much as to people are opposing the movement itself but rather they are opposing how this is being done. (Mainly because of it's way of portraying things)
I don't really get that. Every community has shitty members and dark corners that need to be dealt with from time to time. My friend is a judge for MtG and flys all over the country judging large events. They are dealing with the exact same issues(though a less aggressive version) and are having to root out some pretty entrenched sexist assholes. No one is running around screaming how it makes MtG look bad.
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EPT
