EPT'GTFO', New Documentary about Female Gamers - Page 16
| Forum Index > General Forum |
|
GreenHorizons
United States23885 Posts
| ||
|
Ghostcom
Denmark4783 Posts
| ||
|
levelping
Singapore759 Posts
| ||
|
Plansix
United States60190 Posts
On March 09 2015 23:47 Ghostcom wrote: My question was if they experienced more harassment online, not only sexual harassment which you then chose to focus on. As has been pointed out before by others those flinging shit are trying to elicit the biggest response and thus the type of harassment will depend on what registers the biggest response. Most men shrug sexual harassment off (but it does exist), hence that is seldom the type of harassment men receive. I am not sure why one kind of harassment should be worse than the other and would really like to see something done about all harassment, however I'm not sure what can be done. Victimising, however, has never helped. Lets assume everyone receives the same amount of harassment online. Then lets add is sexual harassment, which endless studies have proven women receive more of. Thats the point, that women receive all the normal stuff involved with gaming(which isn't great) and a truck load of sexual harassment if she is openly a woman online. | ||
|
Nebuchad
Switzerland12447 Posts
On March 09 2015 23:47 Ghostcom wrote: As has been pointed out before by others those flinging shit are trying to elicit the biggest response and thus the type of harassment will depend on what registers the biggest response. So what? When someone is being sexist with ulterior motives, there is still sexism going on... | ||
|
Plansix
United States60190 Posts
On March 09 2015 23:56 Nebuchad wrote: So what? When someone is being sexist with ulterior motives, there is still sexism going on... Yeah the whole "This is the only way I know how to get attention from a girl, so this isn't sexism" argument doesn't really hold a lot of water. | ||
|
RuiBarbO
United States1340 Posts
On March 09 2015 22:59 SixStrings wrote: You're completely missing the point. No one is saying rudeness doesn't exist, no one is saying we shouldn't aim for a more inclusive and positive community and no one is saying that girls have an easy time. We're just saying that the unpleasantness isn't owed to the fact that gamers are sexist, but that many gamers are rude, mean and hide behind their anonymity. Many of us are just wary of the blatant lies and bias exhibited by people who make a career of bringing gender issues into matters. 'A situation sucks' 80 views 'A situation sucks because girls are victims' 80.000 views. Fuck that. But isn't this still at risk of being a bit presumptuous? You're dismissing the documentary based on the premise that gender is not a real factor in all this, that whenever "gender" is brought up it is "blatant lies and bias." But the conclusion of the documentary (as it is described in the article) is that gender is a relevant factor. You can't dismiss that conclusion only by claiming that it is false, you have to show why the premises that led to that conclusion are flawed. And it is not clear how you can do that without watching the documentary unless you presume to know exactly what the documentary contains, which is impossible since (as far as I know) it hasn't premiered yet. Many people have appealed to the common-sense assertion (or variations on this) that "many gamers are rude, mean and hide behind their anonymity." This does not preclude the possibility that gender is a determining factor in how this trend of unpleasantness plays out. It does not say anything about that, unless you make the corresponding assertion that "that means they aren't sexist." But the first statement does not imply the second. The documentary, from what the article says, does not contradict the first point. | ||
|
Ghostcom
Denmark4783 Posts
On March 09 2015 23:52 Plansix wrote: Lets assume everyone receives the same amount of harassment online. Then lets add is sexual harassment, which endless studies have proven women receive more of. Thats the point, that women receive all the normal stuff involved with gaming(which isn't great) and a truck load of sexual harassment if she is openly a woman online. I have yet to see any evidence that the sexual harassment is added on top. In my experience it replaces the harassment directed towards guys when people find out that she is a girl. It seems our opinions simply differ here and without any solid data we can't figure out who is right. On March 09 2015 23:52 levelping wrote: I have an honest question to everyone saying that these women are playing the victim. Here's a crazy thought, if everyone is really having a really shitty time being harassed online, what's so wrong about starting to tackle this big problem with gender based harassment and then going on to tackle other areas like.homophobia or whatever harassment straight white males suffer from. Why not just start some where? Are you really expecting everyone to come to some collective conference and promise to end all harassment at the exact same time? To briefly answer that: 1) Why only focus on one type of harassment at a time? Are you really expecting that those perpetrating harassment have divided themselves into groups where each group only perpetrates one kind of harassment (your snarky remark at the end seems to suggest so)? Or could it be that for harassment to stop a broader change of mindset would be required? I think most people who are against focusing on one type of harassment have understood that and are in fact not the cave-man y'all trying to make them look like. 2) Victimization as a means to end inequality has never worked for anyone. What has worked has always been empowering those groups to start fighting for their rights - the other part really only cements the mindset that women are some sort of frail beings who needs the protection of society/men. Obviously they do not. EDIT: On March 09 2015 23:56 Nebuchad wrote: So what? When someone is being sexist with ulterior motives, there is still sexism going on... Pretty sure I never said sexism wasn't ongoing. In fact I think I said multiple times that it was one of the types of harassment. In fact I did so in the very same post from which you decided to quote only a snippet. Context is usually important in debates. Let us keep this civil and show some respect for the other parts in the debate. EDIT2: On March 10 2015 00:00 Plansix wrote: Yeah the whole "This is the only way I know how to get attention from a girl, so this isn't sexism" argument doesn't really hold a lot of water. Fuck off with your strawman. Not a single person has used that argument - and I was quoted out of context. When you use this kind of rhetoric it is obvious that we are not going to have a civil debate and I have better ways to spend my Monday than defending myself against bullshit like this. | ||
|
levelping
Singapore759 Posts
On March 10 2015 00:09 Ghostcom wrote: I have yet to see any evidence that the sexual harassment is added on top. In my experience it replaces the harassment directed towards guys when people find out that she is a girl. It seems our opinions simply differ here and without any solid data we can't figure out who is right. To briefly answer that: 1) Why only focus on one type of harassment at a time? Are you really expecting that those perpetrating harassment have divided themselves into groups where each group only perpetrates one kind of harassment (your snarky remark at the end seems to suggest so)? Or could it be that for harassment to stop a broader change of mindset would be required? I think most people who are against focusing on one type of harassment has understood that and are in fact not the cave-man y'all trying to make them look like. 2) Victimization as a means to end inequality has never worked for anyone. What has worked has always been empowering those groups to start fighting for their rights - the other part really only cements the mindset that women are some sort of frail beings who needs the protection of society/men. Obviously they do not. But see - many groups are fighting against harassment at the same time. LGBT gamers, female gamers, and people who are trying to stamp out racist. But invariably whenever one of these groups speak up, someone will point out that hey why do you want special treatment. It is such a tired argument. And anyway even if it is only stopping one form of a harassmenet at a time, then why not? What the makers of the documentary are doing is at least trying resolving part of the problem. If you think about rights movements in the US, these were taken in waves too - blacks, women, and now LGBT. Imagine if every time one of those groups tried to do something someone had come along and said "hang on now, why you especially?". | ||
|
Nebuchad
Switzerland12447 Posts
On March 10 2015 00:09 Ghostcom wrote: Pretty sure I never said sexism wasn't ongoing. In fact I think I said multiple times that it was one of the types of harassment. In fact I did so in the very same post from which you decided to quote only a snippet. Context is usually important in debates. Let us keep this civil and show some respect for the other parts in the debate. Okay but then why mention that? It appears the idea that the sexism is done in order to be an asshole rather than in order to be sexist is supposed to be an answer to the claim of the article. I don't understand it. | ||
|
Plansix
United States60190 Posts
On March 10 2015 00:09 Ghostcom wrote: I have yet to see any evidence that the sexual harassment is added on top. In my experience it replaces the harassment directed towards guys when people find out that she is a girl. It seems our opinions simply differ here and without any solid data we can't figure out who is right. So sexual harassment is ok because its the internet and harassment is common? Gee, I can't think why this article points out that the gaming community as whole dismisses sexual harassment as an issue. On March 10 2015 00:17 Nebuchad wrote: Okay but then why mention that? It appears the idea that the sexism is done in order to be an asshole rather than in order to be sexist is supposed to be an answer to the claim of the article. I don't understand it. I don't really get it either. People who are sexist on purpose are assholes. The whole argument that sexism isn't an issue because assholes exist is self proving and silly. | ||
|
Jockmcplop
United Kingdom9830 Posts
On March 09 2015 23:52 levelping wrote: I have an honest question to everyone saying that these women are playing the victim. Here's a crazy thought, if everyone is really having a really shitty time being harassed online, what's so wrong about starting to tackle this big problem with gender based harassment and then going on to tackle other areas like.homophobia or whatever harassment straight white males suffer from. Why not just start some where? Are you really expecting everyone to come to some collective conference and promise to end all harassment at the exact same time? I sort of agree with this, but it won't solve anything and could make the issue worse. TBH, i think this (like everything else) needs to start at an early age. The intuitive way of looking at online interactions is to treat everyone as virtual people, not real people, especially in video games. It actually takes some awareness to understand that the recipient of threats/insults is actually a human being. Children should be taught this IMO. Trying to retrain people to think about it in this positive way will never work, seeing as people start using the internet at very young ages. Making it a gender issue is just complicating a fairly simple matter. People need to treat each other with respect, online and in real life. Its really not about gender. I'll agree that women have it worse online, but that's a symptom of the problem and trying to eradicate that is akin to blowing your nose in the hope that it'll cure your cold. In the UK its becoming the norm that people who overstep the mark online are arrested. This won't change attitudes, it'll just add an anti-authority layer on top. Criminalizing trolls won't work, educating kids that values apply online as they do in real life just might. | ||
|
Ghostcom
Denmark4783 Posts
On March 10 2015 00:17 Nebuchad wrote: Okay but then why mention that? It appears the idea that the sexism is done in order to be an asshole rather than in order to be sexist is supposed to be an answer to the claim of the article. I don't understand it. It is all explained in the very same post that you quoted first. Yes, sexism is happening. No, just because it is done in order to be an asshole it does not make it any better. Why is sexism so much worse of a type of harassment that the article only focuses on that? | ||
|
GreenHorizons
United States23885 Posts
On March 10 2015 00:17 levelping wrote: But see - many groups are fighting against harassment at the same time. LGBT gamers, female gamers, and people who are trying to stamp out racist. But invariably whenever one of these groups speak up, someone will point out that hey why do you want special treatment. It is such a tired argument. And anyway even if it is only stopping one form of a harassmenet at a time, then why not? What the makers of the documentary are doing is at least trying resolving part of the problem. If you think about rights movements in the US, these were taken in waves too - blacks, women, and now LGBT. Imagine if every time one of those groups tried to do something someone had come along and said "hang on now, why you especially?". Oh there's plenty of that. It all usually circles back to the notion that no one suffers significantly more discrimination/bigotry/racism/etc than christian white males. Which everyone but some people in one or more of those groups knows is bullshit. | ||
|
Plansix
United States60190 Posts
On March 10 2015 00:23 Ghostcom wrote: It is all explained in the very same post that you quoted first. Yes, sexism is happening. No, just because it is done in order to be an asshole it does not make it any better. Why is sexism so much worse of a type of harassment that the article only focuses on that? Better question, why shouldn't people be trying to deal with it? If people are saying its a problem and they want to find solutions, why would it be bad to go down that path and try to deal with it? | ||
|
levelping
Singapore759 Posts
On March 10 2015 00:19 Plansix wrote: So sexual harassment is ok because its the internet and harassment is common? Gee, I can't think why this article points out that the gaming community as whole dismisses sexual harassment as an issue. I sometimes wonder if the point that is trying to be made is "we're all suffering horribly from this online harassment, and god forbid anyone trying to improve the situation without also improving it for me at the same time". Another part of the narrative is essentially drawing some kind of equivalence between saying "get raped" to a woman (who statistically is much more likely to get raped in real life than a man, and might actually have to worry about getting raped in real life and just wants to play a game without having to put up with all that real life stuff), and saying "get raped" to a man (who is statisically much less likely to get raped in real life than a woman, and probably never has to worry about being raped in real life). The same thing is being said, but the wider social context obviously makes one way less tactful than the other. And at the end of the day, let's just look at what these "feminazis" (etc) are asking for: - be polite online to women - less bikini models - good female characters Is this really ground breaking stuff that? You'd think from some of the reactions that we're being asked to chop off an arm. | ||
|
Ghostcom
Denmark4783 Posts
On March 10 2015 00:19 Plansix wrote: So sexual harassment is ok because its the internet and harassment is common? Gee, I can't think why this article points out that the gaming community as whole dismisses sexual harassment as an issue. I'm also pretty sure that I have multiple times stated that no kind of harassment was okay and that ALL harassment was an issue. You just can't refrain from straw-manning and shit-posting. Shame on you. | ||
|
Nebuchad
Switzerland12447 Posts
On March 10 2015 00:23 Ghostcom wrote: It is all explained in the very same post that you quoted first. Yes, sexism is happening. No, just because it is done in order to be an asshole it does not make it any better. Why is sexism so much worse of a type of harassment that the article only focuses on that? That doesn't answer my question. To answer yours, I would argue it's worse cause it derives from who the people are and not what they did. | ||
|
Velr
Switzerland10876 Posts
Assholes are gonna Insult you no matter what. If your a Woman you most likely get sexist attacks. If your black you’ll probably get racist remarks. If your German you’ll get Nazi bat in your face… It isn’t sexism because these assholes are sexist, it’s just assholes being assholes and going for the insults/attacks/strategies that supposedly „hurt“ their target the most. I think no one said anything against attempts to controll/punish these people for this behaviour (which is hard, else we wouldn’t have this discussion at all, companies constantly try to do something about it). I and many others just don’t think this is about sexism (or any other thing of that sort) in general… | ||
|
Logo
United States7542 Posts
On March 10 2015 00:23 Jockmcplop wrote: I sort of agree with this, but it won't solve anything and could make the issue worse. TBH, i think this (like everything else) needs to start at an early age. The intuitive way of looking at online interactions is to treat everyone as virtual people, not real people, especially in video games. It actually takes some awareness to understand that the recipient of threats/insults is actually a human being. Children should be taught this IMO. Trying to retrain people to think about it in this positive way will never work, seeing as people start using the internet at very young ages. Making it a gender issue is just complicating a fairly simple matter. People need to treat each other with respect, online and in real life. Its really not about gender. I'll agree that women have it worse online, but that's a symptom of the problem and trying to eradicate that is akin to blowing your nose in the hope that it'll cure your cold. In the UK its becoming the norm that people who overstep the mark online are arrested. This won't change attitudes, it'll just add an anti-authority layer on top. Criminalizing trolls won't work, educating kids that values apply online as they do in real life just might. The thing is though this is a nice an organized nuance view of a complex issue. Like if people started here there could be reasonable discussion on various issues, but instead your expressed view is not where a large part of the thread is starting from and it sort of sours any chance at good discussion. Like there's a huge difference between what you're saying and what many people start at with by saying "women should just deal with it" or "this problem doesn't exist". | ||
| ||
