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On March 09 2015 18:58 Velr wrote:Show nested quote +On March 09 2015 18:34 Umpteen wrote:
I think the 'trolls just like to troll' argument fails to adequately explain why pretty much all online/in-game insults amount to an accusation of not being a straight white guy. Uhm... All the "your mom" and in General every not fag/whatever Insult?
Generally most of those statements aren't insults, they're just expressions of hate. "Get cancer and die", for instance, isn't what I would consider an insult.
Yes, you do get some "living in mom's basement" stuff, but in terms of the number of times insults are used (as opposed to the number of possible insults), my experience has been overwhelmingly dominated by expressions of white machismo. Maybe I'm a statistical outlier 
Leaving that aside, I think there's another side to the issue.
In real life, boys are routinely horrible and abusive towards each other - but they tend to modulate that behaviour when girls are part of the group, and tend to target the girls less, too. I'm not saying that's right or wrong, I'm just saying that's how it generally plays out in a social setting where everyone is included on an equitable basis.
When I try to think of exceptions, I picture rowdy, beery lads shouting and jeering across the street at a couple of girls on a night out. It's not inclusive; it's not social. It's a territorial display.
So when I think about online gaming, I'm seeing two things: first, you have guys acting out as if there were no girls around. Right there is an unconscious presumption that this is male territory, reinforced by people getting defensive and saying girls should just suck it up and not be offended.
On the other side, for a girl the real-life situations most similar to her online experience may well be unpleasant, intimidating and exclusive. They are situations where she might well feel vulnerable.
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On March 09 2015 21:44 FetTerBender wrote:
We seriously need some systems to punish toxic behaviour. Not in a sense of banning people for some stupid dick jokes they make with their friends, but for people who harass and abuse others in gaming.
I personally stopped playing LoL because the community was shit, and the DotA 2 community is in some parts heading in the same direction. It´s a shame to have to mute half of your team because they are less willing to normally communicate but rather flame around to get ... i dont know, maybe a feeling of superiority?
As for female gamers, the threats are on another level (because cheauvinistic and sexist jokes and harassments are a category filled to the brim) and additionally, if a girl gamer is identified and singled out, the flamers tend to identify her as the "weakest link" and focus on her, no matter how good or bad the communication was before.
There should be some anonymous system to pass judgement on reported cases of sexism or toxic behaviour in games, if a case has been reported and judged as e.g. blatant sexism by 10+ reviewers, the mods have a look and eventually take action. That way the community (at least those interested) could start working on cleaning up, and the final power to punish would be in the hands of the mods.
The problem is that it is apparently really hard to come up with systems that do that. Big companies have been trying for ages and spent a lot of money on trying to create systems that make people behave like assholes less. And while they have some impact, they really don't seem to work very well.
Don't you think Riot, Valve and a lot of other companies would prefer if the community in their games were nicer to each other? Usually people prefer to play with people who do not behave like assholes, and if they enjoy themselves more, they will play more and spend more money on the game.
And still people behave like assholes.
I personally don't even understand this behaviour, but a lot of people apparently enjoy being angry at others a lot, and would rather do that than play the game. And then other people do not simply collectively mute them, but instead engage them into flame wars which spiral out of control.
I am not really convinced that sexism, racism, homophobia or whatever else are the main problems. It is people being assholes. And noone seems to have found a good solution to that so far, and not for a lack of trying. Thus, i find it pointless to constantly complain about people being assholes without having any sort of play to stop them from being assholes.
And even more annoying is the grouping of people. Just because i play LoL, and some people who play LoL are assholes, does not make me an asshole. And gamers are pretty sensitive for this stereotypisation, because historically we have always been at the short end of that stick. Every time something like this pops up it feels like another foray into the "All gamers are fat basement dwelling nerds with pour hygiene" area, which we barely (and not even completely) crawled out of yet. You do not judge all football fans based on a few neonazi hooligans, but somehow it is acceptable to judge all gamers based on the vocal assholes, just because noone has found a working system to stop them being assholes, and most gamers have realized the futility in trying to directly confront these assholes already, and thus stopped doing that and are merely ignoring them because it is not their job to fix someone elses bad behaviour.
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On March 09 2015 21:07 kwizach wrote:Show nested quote +On March 09 2015 20:57 Dark_Chill wrote:On March 09 2015 20:37 kwizach wrote:On March 09 2015 20:26 Incognoto wrote:On March 09 2015 19:46 kwizach wrote:On March 09 2015 13:10 Stratos_speAr wrote:
The amount of male gamers in this thread that are trying to justify the abuse that women get by saying, "well men get abused too!" is both astounding and depressing.
As GreenHorizons pointed out, women are sexually discriminated against far, far, far more often than men, and it goes much farther as well; there are far more frequent cases of death threats, stalking, etc. against women stemming from online interaction than against men. Sexism is so incredibly pervasive in gamer culture that it's laughable that people still try to deny it, and if you are, then you need to check yourself because you're part of the problem.
If you can't see the difference between insulting a man by calling him a "faggot" and insulting a gay man by calling him a "faggot" then you need to do some soul-searching. It's the same difference between calling a white man the N word vs. calling a black man the N word. One person is being insulted about something he's not, while the other is being insulted and ridiculed due to a fundamental part of his identity.
This same thing occurs with women in the gaming world. Similarly, when over 90% of rape victims are female and cultural discourse on rape is almost exclusively about women being the victims, threatening to rape someone is far more disturbing to a woman than a man, especially when human history has been almost exclusively patriarchal and rape as we understand it today was both legal and commonly encouraged throughout history.
The idea that you treat everyone 100% the same without regard for context is an incredibly childish and naive notion. There is context to everything in this world. Calling a white man the N word doesn't mean the same thing as calling a black man the N word, just as a black man saying the N word means something very different from a white man saying the N word. Calling a man a "slut" has a very different connotation than calling a woman a "slut" does.
So no, the abuse that women take in the gaming world is not the same as the abuse that men take. That is simply the excuse of a lazy, entitled, male-centered gaming culture that is afraid of change. Another good post. I feel like holding those points of views further encourages racism and sexism rather than stems them; but that's just me. Yes, that's just you being wrong. Except he's not? Making clear distinctions which highlight the differences between groups (and topics surrounding those groups) of course encourages discrimination. Discrimination of groups can't happen if those groups are too similar, because then there's nothing to latch onto. Except he is. Denouncing the discrimination faced by blacks, homosexuals, women and other groups for being black, homosexual, women etc., and making such discrimination socially unacceptable is obviously the way to go to push back and suppress such discrimination (even though it's a long process). Fighting against and denouncing racism/racist discriminations has made the U.S. considerably less racist than it was 60 years ago (although there's obviously still a long way to go), not more. "Let's pretend the problem of discrimination doesn't exist" doesn't actually fix it. On another note, I can't help but notice that although most of the usual reactionary/sexist/anti-feminism TL posters have expectedly converged on this thread, some are still absent. I wonder when L1ghtning is going to make an appearance.
Its only a matter of time. This thread is 21 hours old at 14 pages. Clearly we have a lot of members who have many opinion about the harassment girls face in gaming. I am sure we will get the anti-feminist circle jerk crowd in here to talk about how women trick men with their sexyness and powers of overwhelming guilt.
And I love how we have gone through the full gambit of "its not a problem", "everyone gets harassed" and "What makes girls so special" arguments in this thread. Nothing gets some guys more riled than hearing that a group of women might have struggles that are harder than their own.
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No. The problem is that you tell guys that they are assholes, and most guys don't like being told they are assholes. I am a gamer. I am not sexist. But if you say gamers are sexist, you are saying that i am sexist. I do not like being told that i am sexist, thus i will oppose that.
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@UmpteenI'm way more forgiving than you and honestly, you seem to be a little "extreme". Midorfeed is basically a meme at this point and the occasional flame is just part of the game and the fun.
In my opinion this is not a „Girls/Gays/Whatever have it rough“ problem. Yes, the insult changes if the troll realises he deals with a Girl and maybe that hurts Girls/Whatever more, but the issue lies with the individual moron that will shout out whatever he feels will have the greatest effect…
But those are few and far inbetween and should not be compared to the guy that occasionally rages or takes part in some „flame banter“, thats imho just part of the gaming culture (any competetive culture to be honest... Tennis Players break rakets and swear, Football Players swear at each other and do stupid fouls....).
Being a complete dick on purpose on the other side is not the same and i don't like being told to be a sexist asshole because i don't condemn the entire culture i grew up with.
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On March 09 2015 22:28 Simberto wrote:Show nested quote +On March 09 2015 21:44 FetTerBender wrote:
We seriously need some systems to punish toxic behaviour. Not in a sense of banning people for some stupid dick jokes they make with their friends, but for people who harass and abuse others in gaming.
I personally stopped playing LoL because the community was shit, and the DotA 2 community is in some parts heading in the same direction. It´s a shame to have to mute half of your team because they are less willing to normally communicate but rather flame around to get ... i dont know, maybe a feeling of superiority?
As for female gamers, the threats are on another level (because cheauvinistic and sexist jokes and harassments are a category filled to the brim) and additionally, if a girl gamer is identified and singled out, the flamers tend to identify her as the "weakest link" and focus on her, no matter how good or bad the communication was before.
There should be some anonymous system to pass judgement on reported cases of sexism or toxic behaviour in games, if a case has been reported and judged as e.g. blatant sexism by 10+ reviewers, the mods have a look and eventually take action. That way the community (at least those interested) could start working on cleaning up, and the final power to punish would be in the hands of the mods. The problem is that it is apparently really hard to come up with systems that do that. Big companies have been trying for ages and spent a lot of money on trying to create systems that make people behave like assholes less. And while they have some impact, they really don't seem to work very well. Don't you think Riot, Valve and a lot of other companies would prefer if the community in their games were nicer to each other? Usually people prefer to play with people who do not behave like assholes, and if they enjoy themselves more, they will play more and spend more money on the game. And still people behave like assholes. I personally don't even understand this behaviour, but a lot of people apparently enjoy being angry at others a lot, and would rather do that than play the game. And then other people do not simply collectively mute them, but instead engage them into flame wars which spiral out of control. I am not really convinced that sexism, racism, homophobia or whatever else are the main problems. It is people being assholes. And noone seems to have found a good solution to that so far, and not for a lack of trying. Thus, i find it pointless to constantly complain about people being assholes without having any sort of play to stop them from being assholes. And even more annoying is the grouping of people. Just because i play LoL, and some people who play LoL are assholes, does not make me an asshole. And gamers are pretty sensitive for this stereotypisation, because historically we have always been at the short end of that stick. Every time something like this pops up it feels like another foray into the "All gamers are fat basement dwelling nerds with pour hygiene" area, which we barely (and not even completely) crawled out of yet. You do not judge all football fans based on a few neonazi hooligans, but somehow it is acceptable to judge all gamers based on the vocal assholes, just because noone has found a working system to stop them being assholes, and most gamers have realized the futility in trying to directly confront these assholes already, and thus stopped doing that and are merely ignoring them because it is not their job to fix someone elses bad behaviour.
To stop kids from behaving like assholes is relatively easy: put their parents next to them. I'm quite sure kids misbehave online because their parents aren't there to slap them when they cross the line. There is practically no social control when sitting in front of a computer screen, which explains why kids tend to behave better in public than online. This latter case also includes adults, actually.
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On March 09 2015 06:10 SixStrings wrote:
people call me faggot every time I play Protoss (not entirely unjustly).
Free flame is free.
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On March 09 2015 22:28 Simberto wrote:Show nested quote +On March 09 2015 21:44 FetTerBender wrote:
We seriously need some systems to punish toxic behaviour. Not in a sense of banning people for some stupid dick jokes they make with their friends, but for people who harass and abuse others in gaming.
I personally stopped playing LoL because the community was shit, and the DotA 2 community is in some parts heading in the same direction. It´s a shame to have to mute half of your team because they are less willing to normally communicate but rather flame around to get ... i dont know, maybe a feeling of superiority?
As for female gamers, the threats are on another level (because cheauvinistic and sexist jokes and harassments are a category filled to the brim) and additionally, if a girl gamer is identified and singled out, the flamers tend to identify her as the "weakest link" and focus on her, no matter how good or bad the communication was before.
There should be some anonymous system to pass judgement on reported cases of sexism or toxic behaviour in games, if a case has been reported and judged as e.g. blatant sexism by 10+ reviewers, the mods have a look and eventually take action. That way the community (at least those interested) could start working on cleaning up, and the final power to punish would be in the hands of the mods. The problem is that it is apparently really hard to come up with systems that do that. Big companies have been trying for ages and spent a lot of money on trying to create systems that make people behave like assholes less. And while they have some impact, they really don't seem to work very well. Don't you think Riot, Valve and a lot of other companies would prefer if the community in their games were nicer to each other? Usually people prefer to play with people who do not behave like assholes, and if they enjoy themselves more, they will play more and spend more money on the game. And still people behave like assholes. I personally don't even understand this behaviour, but a lot of people apparently enjoy being angry at others a lot, and would rather do that than play the game. And then other people do not simply collectively mute them, but instead engage them into flame wars which spiral out of control. I am not really convinced that sexism, racism, homophobia or whatever else are the main problems. It is people being assholes. And noone seems to have found a good solution to that so far, and not for a lack of trying. Thus, i find it pointless to constantly complain about people being assholes without having any sort of play to stop them from being assholes. And even more annoying is the grouping of people. Just because i play LoL, and some people who play LoL are assholes, does not make me an asshole. And gamers are pretty sensitive for this stereotypisation, because historically we have always been at the short end of that stick. Every time something like this pops up it feels like another foray into the "All gamers are fat basement dwelling nerds with pour hygiene" area, which we barely (and not even completely) crawled out of yet. You do not judge all football fans based on a few neonazi hooligans, but somehow it is acceptable to judge all gamers based on the vocal assholes, just because noone has found a working system to stop them being assholes, and most gamers have realized the futility in trying to directly confront these assholes already, and thus stopped doing that and are merely ignoring them because it is not their job to fix someone elses bad behaviour.
Hmm, while i agree on the problem of grouping (30% of toxic idiots and the whole community is called terrible) i dont know how to talk about a community in another way than to generalise a bit.
I dont know. There is a level of ass-hattery in every game, and i guess it is personal experience within a game. Velr stated he has around 1/30 games of DotA with terrible allies, from my personal point of view this happens far more often.
If i knew how to stop bad mannered behaviour in general / for online games, i would totally go ahead and claim my Nobel Peace Price :-P
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On March 09 2015 22:37 Simberto wrote:
No. The problem is that you tell guys that they are assholes, and most guys don't like being told they are assholes. I am a gamer. I am not sexist. But if you say gamers are sexist, you are saying that i am sexist. I do not like being told that i am sexist, thus i will oppose that.
But they are saying there is sexism in gaming and a general ambivalence towards that sexism. If you read this thread, the tone from many posters is "so what, that's how gaming is. You get flamed and called names".
Which is pretty much what the article is saying. There is sexism in gaming and a lot of people who play games don't care or want to ignore it, while also claiming they would love girls to play games.
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On March 09 2015 22:38 maartendq wrote:To stop kids from behaving like assholes is relatively easy: put their parents next to them. I'm quite sure kids misbehave online because their parents aren't there to slap them when they cross the line. There is practically no social control when sitting in front of a computer screen, which explains why kids tend to behave better in public than online. This latter case also includes adults, actually.
This is similar to what I was saying: I'm sure everyone would agree people tend to play games as if their parents aren't also playing. Well, guys tend to play games as if girls aren't also playing. It's not every guy, for sure, but it's enough for our social radars to pick up on.
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On March 09 2015 22:45 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On March 09 2015 22:37 Simberto wrote:
No. The problem is that you tell guys that they are assholes, and most guys don't like being told they are assholes. I am a gamer. I am not sexist. But if you say gamers are sexist, you are saying that i am sexist. I do not like being told that i am sexist, thus i will oppose that. But they are saying there is sexism in gaming and a general ambivalence towards that sexism. If you read this thread, the tone from many posters is "so what, that's how gaming is. You get flamed and called names". Which is pretty much what the article is saying. There is sexism in gaming and a lot of people who play games don't care or want to ignore it, while also claiming they would love girls to play games.
This should probably end thread, honestly.
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On March 09 2015 22:50 Nebuchad wrote:Show nested quote +On March 09 2015 22:45 Plansix wrote:On March 09 2015 22:37 Simberto wrote:
No. The problem is that you tell guys that they are assholes, and most guys don't like being told they are assholes. I am a gamer. I am not sexist. But if you say gamers are sexist, you are saying that i am sexist. I do not like being told that i am sexist, thus i will oppose that. But they are saying there is sexism in gaming and a general ambivalence towards that sexism. If you read this thread, the tone from many posters is "so what, that's how gaming is. You get flamed and called names". Which is pretty much what the article is saying. There is sexism in gaming and a lot of people who play games don't care or want to ignore it, while also claiming they would love girls to play games. This should probably end thread, honestly.
Its anyone has been following the whole sexism in gaming issue for the last 9 months, yeah.
Its literally the same arguments regurgitated by people involved with gaming, who also happen to be guys. I've seen almost every one and every format and its dull to the point of ad nauseum. Guys who claim women are welcome in gaming, but then are totally unwilling to listen when women complain about their treatment in gaming.
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On March 09 2015 22:45 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On March 09 2015 22:37 Simberto wrote:
No. The problem is that you tell guys that they are assholes, and most guys don't like being told they are assholes. I am a gamer. I am not sexist. But if you say gamers are sexist, you are saying that i am sexist. I do not like being told that i am sexist, thus i will oppose that. But they are saying there is sexism in gaming and a general ambivalence towards that sexism. If you read this thread, the tone from many posters is "so what, that's how gaming is. You get flamed and called names". Which is pretty much what the article is saying. There is sexism in gaming and a lot of people who play games don't care or want to ignore it, while also claiming they would love girls to play games.
You're completely missing the point.
No one is saying rudeness doesn't exist, no one is saying we shouldn't aim for a more inclusive and positive community and no one is saying that girls have an easy time.
We're just saying that the unpleasantness isn't owed to the fact that gamers are sexist, but that many gamers are rude, mean and hide behind their anonymity.
Many of us are just wary of the blatant lies and bias exhibited by people who make a career of bringing gender issues into matters.
'A situation sucks' 80 views
'A situation sucks because girls are victims' 80.000 views.
Fuck that.
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On March 09 2015 22:59 SixStrings wrote:Show nested quote +On March 09 2015 22:45 Plansix wrote:On March 09 2015 22:37 Simberto wrote:
No. The problem is that you tell guys that they are assholes, and most guys don't like being told they are assholes. I am a gamer. I am not sexist. But if you say gamers are sexist, you are saying that i am sexist. I do not like being told that i am sexist, thus i will oppose that. But they are saying there is sexism in gaming and a general ambivalence towards that sexism. If you read this thread, the tone from many posters is "so what, that's how gaming is. You get flamed and called names". Which is pretty much what the article is saying. There is sexism in gaming and a lot of people who play games don't care or want to ignore it, while also claiming they would love girls to play games. You're completely missing the point. No one is saying rudeness doesn't exist, no one is saying we shouldn't aim for a more inclusive and positive community and no one is saying that girls have an easy time. We're just saying that the unpleasantness isn't owed to the fact that gamers are sexist, but that many gamers are rude, mean and hide behind their anonymity. Many of us are just wary of the blatant lies and bias exhibited by people who make a career of bringing gender issues into matters. 'A situation sucks' 80 views 'A situation sucks because girls are victims' 80.000 views. Fuck that.
I would say you are ignoring the point. The issue isn't that people are rude and mean while hiding behind their anonymity. The issue is that they are ruder and meaner to women when they are hiding behind anonymity. That the treatment is worse and that it happens more often.
And could you tell me more about people who "make a career of bringing gender issues into matters"? I get the feeling you want to blame this all on one person and I can't quite figure out who it is.
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On March 09 2015 22:59 SixStrings wrote:Show nested quote +On March 09 2015 22:45 Plansix wrote:On March 09 2015 22:37 Simberto wrote:
No. The problem is that you tell guys that they are assholes, and most guys don't like being told they are assholes. I am a gamer. I am not sexist. But if you say gamers are sexist, you are saying that i am sexist. I do not like being told that i am sexist, thus i will oppose that. But they are saying there is sexism in gaming and a general ambivalence towards that sexism. If you read this thread, the tone from many posters is "so what, that's how gaming is. You get flamed and called names". Which is pretty much what the article is saying. There is sexism in gaming and a lot of people who play games don't care or want to ignore it, while also claiming they would love girls to play games. You're completely missing the point. No one is saying rudeness doesn't exist, no one is saying we shouldn't aim for a more inclusive and positive community and no one is saying that girls have an easy time. We're just saying that the unpleasantness isn't owed to the fact that gamers are sexist, but that many gamers are rude, mean and hide behind their anonymity. Many of us are just wary of the blatant lies and bias exhibited by people who make a career of bringing gender issues into matters. 'A situation sucks' 80 views 'A situation sucks because girls are victims' 80.000 views. Fuck that.
So your example of him missing the point is literally to rewrite exactly what he just said.
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Riot did some stats stuff that claimed a small portion of their userbase were trolls (see here). Further to that, they noticed that a fair amount of this was because a player was having a bad day (here - Sorry they're all RB links, it's the first set of results I found).
There's also recent research that shows that it's very hard to be analytical and empathetic at the same time (here). This can mean that if you're busy problem-solving trying to play online, then you're less likely to think about any kind of emotional cost to the people with whom you're playing.
If you're angry and/or want to troll, you want to do as much damage as you can in the least amount of time. So you go for the weak spots. If you're talking to a woman, generally you attack that. If you're talking to a guy, you usually try to attack his sexuality instead, (or largely threaten to cut off their genitalia from what I've heard. That or wish cancer upon them/their family).
This can be, and is, largely seen as sexist, because there's this idea that if you're a woman you need to prove you're a good gamer, but if you're a man you're assumed to be a good gamer. This can mean that, as a man, you get less abuse if you're doing competently, but if you screw up all bets are off, but as a woman you get the condescension until you can prove to them that you're good, but if you screw up you're reamed slightly less.
However, due to this idea that there's some gate you have to get through if you're a woman, it makes the barrier to entry higher for women coming in to gaming, which I think is unfair.
Nobody should have to hide who they are online. If they want to, go for it, good times, but if you want be who you are online you shouldn't be punished for that.
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Anybody who hasnt been called "a fag" while playing online at last once, can't call himself a true gamer. But everybody who called someone "a fag" while playing online at last once, must call himself a true retard.
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On March 09 2015 23:05 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On March 09 2015 22:59 SixStrings wrote:On March 09 2015 22:45 Plansix wrote:On March 09 2015 22:37 Simberto wrote:
No. The problem is that you tell guys that they are assholes, and most guys don't like being told they are assholes. I am a gamer. I am not sexist. But if you say gamers are sexist, you are saying that i am sexist. I do not like being told that i am sexist, thus i will oppose that. But they are saying there is sexism in gaming and a general ambivalence towards that sexism. If you read this thread, the tone from many posters is "so what, that's how gaming is. You get flamed and called names". Which is pretty much what the article is saying. There is sexism in gaming and a lot of people who play games don't care or want to ignore it, while also claiming they would love girls to play games. You're completely missing the point. No one is saying rudeness doesn't exist, no one is saying we shouldn't aim for a more inclusive and positive community and no one is saying that girls have an easy time. We're just saying that the unpleasantness isn't owed to the fact that gamers are sexist, but that many gamers are rude, mean and hide behind their anonymity. Many of us are just wary of the blatant lies and bias exhibited by people who make a career of bringing gender issues into matters. 'A situation sucks' 80 views 'A situation sucks because girls are victims' 80.000 views. Fuck that. I would say you are ignoring the point. The issue isn't that people are rude and mean while hiding behind their anonymity. The issue is that they are ruder and meaner to women when they are hiding behind anonymity. That the treatment is worse and that it happens more often. And could you tell me more about people who "make a career of bringing gender issues into matters"? I get the feeling you want to blame this all on one person and I can't quite figure out who it is.
Are they actually ruder and meaner towards women than men whilst being online though? I have yet to see any evidence to support this - to me it seems like it is the same shit-show regardless of gender with a slight variation of theme. Yes, people online a ruder and mean towards women than in real life, but the same goes for men - so if you are going to make a documentary it seems dishonest to only look at the abuse directed at the women like it is so very special.
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On March 09 2015 23:30 Ghostcom wrote:Show nested quote +On March 09 2015 23:05 Plansix wrote:On March 09 2015 22:59 SixStrings wrote:On March 09 2015 22:45 Plansix wrote:On March 09 2015 22:37 Simberto wrote:
No. The problem is that you tell guys that they are assholes, and most guys don't like being told they are assholes. I am a gamer. I am not sexist. But if you say gamers are sexist, you are saying that i am sexist. I do not like being told that i am sexist, thus i will oppose that. But they are saying there is sexism in gaming and a general ambivalence towards that sexism. If you read this thread, the tone from many posters is "so what, that's how gaming is. You get flamed and called names". Which is pretty much what the article is saying. There is sexism in gaming and a lot of people who play games don't care or want to ignore it, while also claiming they would love girls to play games. You're completely missing the point. No one is saying rudeness doesn't exist, no one is saying we shouldn't aim for a more inclusive and positive community and no one is saying that girls have an easy time. We're just saying that the unpleasantness isn't owed to the fact that gamers are sexist, but that many gamers are rude, mean and hide behind their anonymity. Many of us are just wary of the blatant lies and bias exhibited by people who make a career of bringing gender issues into matters. 'A situation sucks' 80 views 'A situation sucks because girls are victims' 80.000 views. Fuck that. I would say you are ignoring the point. The issue isn't that people are rude and mean while hiding behind their anonymity. The issue is that they are ruder and meaner to women when they are hiding behind anonymity. That the treatment is worse and that it happens more often. And could you tell me more about people who "make a career of bringing gender issues into matters"? I get the feeling you want to blame this all on one person and I can't quite figure out who it is. Are they actually ruder and meaner towards women than men whilst being online though? I have yet to see any evidence to support this - to me it seems like it is the same shit-show regardless of gender with a slight variation of theme. Yes, people online a ruder and mean towards women than in real life, but the same goes for men - so if you are going to make a documentary it seems dishonest to only look at the abuse directed at the women like it is so very special.
The short answer is: Yes.
The long answer: there isn’t a lot of “scientific evidence” right now that is specific to gaming. However, women experience more sexual harassment as a whole in normal, non-internet life. There are endless studies on that subject. There are also endless studies showing that any group or subculture that is dominated by one specific gender/race is hostile towards anyone from outside that group that attempts to join it. Its why diversity is very important to avoid these issues.
And a lot of sexism isn’t conscious or intentional, but is still bad. From my personal experience, when my fiancée’s band plays, other bands members often assume she is the roadie and I am the drummer. Its happened so many times that I don’t even bother to be polite about correcting them any more. The guys doing it(and its always guys) are not evil, but they can deal with a verbal slap on the wrist for being sexist. And they normally feel super bad afterwords, which is good and makes them redeemable.
Sexism is real and everywhere. In general the few women in a specific group, the more sexist it becomes. It doesn’t make the people in that group bad unless they ignore or disregard the sexism when people call them out on it.
Which is the issue this article brings up and the main discussion point in this thread.
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EPT
