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On March 10 2015 01:06 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On March 10 2015 01:02 Hyaciao wrote:On March 10 2015 00:55 levelping wrote:
A funny thing is that when you take a deep breath and step back for a bit, I am sure we can all agree that we don't need to be making remarks about rape etc to enjoy our games. So we aren't even being asked to give up anything essential to the gaming experience. It's not so much as to people are opposing the movement itself but rather they are opposing how this is being done. (Mainly because of it's way of portraying things) I don't really get that. Every community has shitty members and dark corners that need to be dealt with from time to time. My friend is a judge for MtG and flys all over the country judging large events. They are dealing with the exact same issues(though a less aggressive version) and are having to root out some pretty entrenched sexist assholes. No one is running around screaming how it makes MtG look bad.
The ironic thing is the running around and screaming is what makes the community at large seem bad. If no one shouted "not ALL gamers are sexist" or anything along those lines then people would probably just go on believing it was some minority of people that were problematic. The more people scream about these issues not representing them accurately the more it makes them seem like the majority.
If people had instead just gone, "I am a gamer, I don't like when other gamers are sexist and I hope people have success in making people stop being sexist" and shut up after that then that would have made gamers seem a hell of a lot less sexist than what the actual general reaction has done.
One the whole the general reaction, like what a big part of this thread is composed of, just serves to fulfill the perception the gamers themselves are trying to debunk. It's totally ass backwards and ridiculous.
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On March 10 2015 01:10 Logo wrote:Show nested quote +On March 10 2015 01:06 Plansix wrote:On March 10 2015 01:02 Hyaciao wrote:On March 10 2015 00:55 levelping wrote:
A funny thing is that when you take a deep breath and step back for a bit, I am sure we can all agree that we don't need to be making remarks about rape etc to enjoy our games. So we aren't even being asked to give up anything essential to the gaming experience. It's not so much as to people are opposing the movement itself but rather they are opposing how this is being done. (Mainly because of it's way of portraying things) I don't really get that. Every community has shitty members and dark corners that need to be dealt with from time to time. My friend is a judge for MtG and flys all over the country judging large events. They are dealing with the exact same issues(though a less aggressive version) and are having to root out some pretty entrenched sexist assholes. No one is running around screaming how it makes MtG look bad. The ironic thing is the running around and screaming is what makes the community at large seem bad. If no one shouted "not ALL gamers are sexist" or anything along those lines then people would probably just go on believing it was some minority of people that were problematic. The more people scream about these issues not representing them accurately the more it makes them seem like the majority. If people had instead just gone, "I am a gamer, I don't like when other gamers are sexist and I hope people have success in making people stop being sexist" and shut up after that then that would have made gamers seem a hell of a lot less sexist than what the actual general reaction has done.
But instead they went the route of "WHY ARE YOU ATTACKING MY CULTURE?!?" like online gaming culture is something amazing or isn't super problematic. Its like when the fighting game community had a dude straight sexual harassing female players at events and saying "Its part of fighting game culture and you can't make it to PC or it will lose its gritty edge".
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On March 09 2015 01:05 travis wrote:
I really don't think the immature kids that talk to girl gamers like this are going after girl gamers. I think they are being dicks to everyone. Most guys, especially ones over 12, LOVE to have girls that play their games too.
In general this "defend girl gamers!" thing is ridiculous. Everyone has to deal with the shitty little immature trolls, not just girls.
The majority of this journalism on girl gamer equality is only a way for the producers of this content to make money. Which is why I didn't click the link.
The thing is that being a girl unlocks twice the amount of insults as there are against other guys. Believe me, I've seen motherfuckers get creative on Counter-Strike and there's STILL casual sexism in my WoW guild where all the female gamers are the wives of other raiders (it's all in fun, obviously not serious, but still there). That, and while guys might be made fun of for their performance and for having a weird headset voice, women are picked on as soon as it becomes clear that they're women regardless of those other things.
Saying it's not a problem is moronic, though I agree with you that the way people are going about it is completely wrong. The main problem with this movement and most of the other feminist stuff coming otu today is that it paints with way too broad a brush and suggests that pretty much all men are misogynists on a certain level, which causes people to become defensive and lash out even when they normally wouldn't.
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+ Show Spoiler +On March 10 2015 01:04 Logo wrote:
I qualified it as meant innocently for that exact reason. It is true many people mean it like that when they say it, but it still is very alienating. Yes it alienates anyone when you try to and discourage people from playing, "if they're not good" but it's a saying that's usually made against specific groups, and often women specifically.
Even though it's meant to be inclusive, the way it's said and the underlying tone of it suggests that women who aren't confident in their online skills should just stay away and give up which is alienating not inclusive. Especially when it's backed up with the reality or perception that if said woman is not good they will receive specific targeted harassment based on their gender.
That's a self imposed perspective due to a personal confidence level. It's because of these self-imposed comments people feel like they are discriminated against by these kinds statement.
Yes it may not be that much worse than if woman was swapped for another identifier, but it's not; it's almost exclusively said about women and it also plays into a common social trend of tearing down woman's confidence. Like studies have suggested that a big part of why women are underrepresented in areas like top competitive gaming is because they're instilled to have less confidence in their abilities by external social pressures, not because they're inherently any less skilled per time spent in the game.
I'm not disagreeing with you, as we can easily find example of this even outside gaming itself, take "women" magazines for example. But again it's more a self-imposed confidence issue. Most people feel they either hit a "cap" or identify themselves as not as good thus they don't feel confident to try out competitive scene.
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On March 10 2015 01:19 Hyaciao wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On March 10 2015 01:04 Logo wrote:
I qualified it as meant innocently for that exact reason. It is true many people mean it like that when they say it, but it still is very alienating. Yes it alienates anyone when you try to and discourage people from playing, "if they're not good" but it's a saying that's usually made against specific groups, and often women specifically.
Even though it's meant to be inclusive, the way it's said and the underlying tone of it suggests that women who aren't confident in their online skills should just stay away and give up which is alienating not inclusive. Especially when it's backed up with the reality or perception that if said woman is not good they will receive specific targeted harassment based on their gender.
That's a self imposed perspective due to a personal confidence level. It's because of these self-imposed comments people feel like they are discriminated against by these kinds statement. Show nested quote +
Yes it may not be that much worse than if woman was swapped for another identifier, but it's not; it's almost exclusively said about women and it also plays into a common social trend of tearing down woman's confidence. Like studies have suggested that a big part of why women are underrepresented in areas like top competitive gaming is because they're instilled to have less confidence in their abilities by external social pressures, not because they're inherently any less skilled per time spent in the game.
I'm not disagreeing with you, as we can easily find example of this even outside gaming itself, take "women" magazines for example. But again it's more a self-imposed confidence issue. Most people feel they either hit a "cap" or identify themselves as not as good thus they don't feel confident to try out competitive scene.
Yes, it's self imposed issue likely brought about by larger cultural issues that would be nice to address. It's not like millions of women all independently and spontaneously ended up with less confidence just by coincidence. Gaming is actually a great way to address this even because it can be a really low risk environment to flex your competitive muscle. Except it's not as low risk if you face harassment that is targeted enough to trigger an emotional response.
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On March 10 2015 01:10 Logo wrote:Show nested quote +On March 10 2015 01:06 Plansix wrote:On March 10 2015 01:02 Hyaciao wrote:On March 10 2015 00:55 levelping wrote:
A funny thing is that when you take a deep breath and step back for a bit, I am sure we can all agree that we don't need to be making remarks about rape etc to enjoy our games. So we aren't even being asked to give up anything essential to the gaming experience. It's not so much as to people are opposing the movement itself but rather they are opposing how this is being done. (Mainly because of it's way of portraying things) I don't really get that. Every community has shitty members and dark corners that need to be dealt with from time to time. My friend is a judge for MtG and flys all over the country judging large events. They are dealing with the exact same issues(though a less aggressive version) and are having to root out some pretty entrenched sexist assholes. No one is running around screaming how it makes MtG look bad. The ironic thing is the running around and screaming is what makes the community at large seem bad. If no one shouted "not ALL gamers are sexist" or anything along those lines then people would probably just go on believing it was some minority of people that were problematic. The more people scream about these issues not representing them accurately the more it makes them seem like the majority. If people had instead just gone, "I am a gamer, I don't like when other gamers are sexist and I hope people have success in making people stop being sexist" and shut up after that then that would have made gamers seem a hell of a lot less sexist than what the actual general reaction has done. One the whole the general reaction, like what a big part of this thread is composed of, just serves to fulfill the perception the gamers themselves are trying to debunk. It's totally ass backwards and ridiculous.
Just for fun, lets try this:
Poll: Choose oneNot all gamers are sexist (2) 18% I am a gamer and I don't like when other gamers are sexist (9) 82% 11 total votes Your vote: Choose one (Vote): Not all gamers are sexist
(Vote): I am a gamer and I don't like when other gamers are sexist
(had to shorten the second one due to character limit)
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Fun idea, but not exactly accurate. Choosing a poll option is pretty different from what you choose to say when you have an opportunity to say anything at all without any guidance of what might be a good thing to say.
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I don't know if anyone watches fairly odd parents. But, there's this great episode on what illustrates a lot of what people are talking about this being a fairly non issue.
It's the grey blob episode. So pretty much timmy is fed up with being bullied by the neighborhood dentist and his son. So he makes a wish that everyone was exactly the same. So everyone in the world turn in grey blobs, and the entire world is shades of grey. He then goes to visit the dentist and his son to claim that they can no longer make fun of him since they were exactly the same. Guess what the dentist and the son say? They claim that they're the greyest of the grey blobs and blobbiest of blobs and that Timmy was not as good as them. In the end, timmy reaches the conclusion that assholes are going to be assholes no matter what, so you should just be proud of who you are.
link to synopsis
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Netherlands6192 Posts
On March 09 2015 03:22 Paljas wrote:I am a bit suprised that you dont think that this is problematic.
Well, of course it is problematic, but I think it is more problematic that people in general get abused like that, not just girls. I'm aware my (half joking) suggestion is avoiding the issue as a short term answer.
However, unless a game specifically asks you to define your gender when playing online with other people, there is no reason to welcome such treatment by revealing that you're a girl. It isn't really relevant to the context of most casual, social games, and doesn't need to be highlighted unnecessarily.
I don't know where I stand on this. Sure girls get treated badly and take it more to heart than guys online, but I don't think it warrants a documentary exclusively on how women are abused. As some other posters have been saying - everyone gets abused. In the extreme cases of Zoe Quinn and that other lady Brianna where their personal security was threatened, then I can understand, but most abuse and threats thrown around on the internet are idle and immature.
The problem really is that people have no respect for anyone else.
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On March 10 2015 01:36 wei2coolman wrote:I don't know if anyone watches fairly odd parents. But, there's this great episode on what illustrates a lot of what people are talking about this being a fairly non issue. It's the grey blob episode. So pretty much timmy is fed up with being bullied by the neighborhood dentist and his son. So he makes a wish that everyone was exactly the same. So everyone in the world turn in grey blobs, and the entire world is shades of grey. He then goes to visit the dentist and his son to claim that they can no longer make fun of him since they were exactly the same. Guess what the dentist and the son say? They claim that they're the greyest of the grey blobs and blobbiest of blobs and that Timmy was not as good as them. In the end, timmy reaches the conclusion that assholes are going to be assholes no matter what, so you should just be proud of who you are. link to synopsis
So harassment of women gaming isn't an issue because this cartoon on Cartoon Network told you so, even though the New York Times(and every other news major new agency) is reporting otherwise?
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On March 10 2015 00:05 RuiBarbO wrote:Show nested quote +On March 09 2015 22:59 SixStrings wrote:On March 09 2015 22:45 Plansix wrote:On March 09 2015 22:37 Simberto wrote:
No. The problem is that you tell guys that they are assholes, and most guys don't like being told they are assholes. I am a gamer. I am not sexist. But if you say gamers are sexist, you are saying that i am sexist. I do not like being told that i am sexist, thus i will oppose that. But they are saying there is sexism in gaming and a general ambivalence towards that sexism. If you read this thread, the tone from many posters is "so what, that's how gaming is. You get flamed and called names". Which is pretty much what the article is saying. There is sexism in gaming and a lot of people who play games don't care or want to ignore it, while also claiming they would love girls to play games. You're completely missing the point. No one is saying rudeness doesn't exist, no one is saying we shouldn't aim for a more inclusive and positive community and no one is saying that girls have an easy time. We're just saying that the unpleasantness isn't owed to the fact that gamers are sexist, but that many gamers are rude, mean and hide behind their anonymity. Many of us are just wary of the blatant lies and bias exhibited by people who make a career of bringing gender issues into matters. 'A situation sucks' 80 views 'A situation sucks because girls are victims' 80.000 views. Fuck that. But isn't this still at risk of being a bit presumptuous? You're dismissing the documentary based on the premise that gender is not a real factor in all this, that whenever "gender" is brought up it is "blatant lies and bias." But the conclusion of the documentary (as it is described in the article) is that gender is a relevant factor. You can't dismiss that conclusion only by claiming that it is false, you have to show why the premises that led to that conclusion are flawed. And it is not clear how you can do that without watching the documentary unless you presume to know exactly what the documentary contains, which is impossible since (as far as I know) it hasn't premiered yet. Many people have appealed to the common-sense assertion (or variations on this) that "many gamers are rude, mean and hide behind their anonymity." This does not preclude the possibility that gender is a determining factor in how this trend of unpleasantness plays out. It does not say anything about that, unless you make the corresponding assertion that "that means they aren't sexist." But the first statement does not imply the second. The documentary, from what the article says, does not contradict the first point.
You're right, I was making a rather large logical mistake.
Thanks for pointing that out in a civil fashion.
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On March 10 2015 01:41 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On March 10 2015 01:36 wei2coolman wrote:I don't know if anyone watches fairly odd parents. But, there's this great episode on what illustrates a lot of what people are talking about this being a fairly non issue. It's the grey blob episode. So pretty much timmy is fed up with being bullied by the neighborhood dentist and his son. So he makes a wish that everyone was exactly the same. So everyone in the world turn in grey blobs, and the entire world is shades of grey. He then goes to visit the dentist and his son to claim that they can no longer make fun of him since they were exactly the same. Guess what the dentist and the son say? They claim that they're the greyest of the grey blobs and blobbiest of blobs and that Timmy was not as good as them. In the end, timmy reaches the conclusion that assholes are going to be assholes no matter what, so you should just be proud of who you are. link to synopsis So harassment of women gaming isn't an issue because this cartoon on Cartoon Network told you so, even though the New York Times(and every other news major new agency) is reporting otherwise?
I'm not sure where you get this response, as it seems wholly different from what the post you quoted talked about.
It also feels oddly and needlessly aggressive.
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On March 10 2015 02:12 zlefin wrote:Show nested quote +On March 10 2015 01:41 Plansix wrote:On March 10 2015 01:36 wei2coolman wrote:I don't know if anyone watches fairly odd parents. But, there's this great episode on what illustrates a lot of what people are talking about this being a fairly non issue. It's the grey blob episode. So pretty much timmy is fed up with being bullied by the neighborhood dentist and his son. So he makes a wish that everyone was exactly the same. So everyone in the world turn in grey blobs, and the entire world is shades of grey. He then goes to visit the dentist and his son to claim that they can no longer make fun of him since they were exactly the same. Guess what the dentist and the son say? They claim that they're the greyest of the grey blobs and blobbiest of blobs and that Timmy was not as good as them. In the end, timmy reaches the conclusion that assholes are going to be assholes no matter what, so you should just be proud of who you are. link to synopsis So harassment of women gaming isn't an issue because this cartoon on Cartoon Network told you so, even though the New York Times(and every other news major new agency) is reporting otherwise? I'm not sure where you get this response, as it seems wholly different from what the post you quoted talked about. It also feels oddly and needlessly aggressive.
Well I am not sure how anyone is supposed to seriously respond to an argument based on an episode of a cartoon. And anyway I'm not even sure what is the point that is being made - no one is asking that everyone on the internet act in the same one. Just be polite (e.g. no more rape jokes), and respect your other gamers, some of whom are female.
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I don't know... By like answering to the argument? And by your post... You didn't even understand the argument made.
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On March 10 2015 02:21 Velr wrote:
I don't know... By like answering to the argument? And by your post... You didn't even understand the argument made.
Well you are right that I have no idea idea what the argument is trying to say. I don't think it's my job to try and help people make their arguments in a more coherent manner.
The best I can infer is that he is saying that the right approach is to "just deal with assholes being assholes" since you can't change them and enjoy being yourself. These aren't new arguments, and are just repeating stuff which has been dealt with at lenght:
(a) yes you can do something about assholes
(b) "deal with it" is a laughable argument, and dismisses the problem of harassment
If his is bringing up the sypnonsis of a cartoon as some sort of greater authority, then well that is incredibly stupid. "Hey ladies, do not worry about the harassment you face (and do not bother making documentarys about it). Look at what Timmy Turner learned in this cartoon!"
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On March 10 2015 01:39 dravernor wrote:Show nested quote +On March 09 2015 03:22 Paljas wrote:On March 09 2015 02:37 dravernor wrote:
Don't reveal you're a girl, simple!
I am a bit suprised that you dont think that this is problematic. Well, of course it is problematic, but I think it is more problematic that people in general get abused like that, not just girls. I'm aware my (half joking) suggestion is avoiding the issue as a short term answer. However, unless a game specifically asks you to define your gender when playing online with other people, there is no reason to welcome such treatment by revealing that you're a girl. It isn't really relevant to the context of most casual, social games, and doesn't need to be highlighted unnecessarily. I don't know where I stand on this. Sure girls get treated badly and take it more to heart than guys online, but I don't think it warrants a documentary exclusively on how women are abused. As some other posters have been saying - everyone gets abused. In the extreme cases of Zoe Quinn and that other lady Brianna where their personal security was threatened, then I can understand, but most abuse and threats thrown around on the internet are idle and immature. The problem really is that people have no respect for anyone else.
You don't see a problem with the fact that the best way for women to avoid being harassed in online gaming is to not reveal their gender or outright pretend they are men? I disagree with a lot of the really rabid feminism going around nowadays in the gaming industry, but to deny there is any sexist problem at all is delusional. Just watch any twitch stream of an esports event or conference and wait for a woman to get on stage and start talking. The "GRILL" will be deafening. And before you say "well that's twitch chat," that's the whole point. It's a representation of the darkest corners of the gaming community having a voice and no interest in using that voice respectfully. Another example is whenever a girl speaks up over voice chat in Dota and immediately everyone's attitude changes. The ones who start flirting with her are just as bad as the ones who are mean, it just fosters an uncomfortable atmosphere for everyone and makes females feel like they are trying to be part of a male culture.
It's a systemic issue that doesn't really have a discrete cause that can be addressed, we just have to get better. It starts with people teaching their children that the internet is no different from any other public forum and they should conduct themselves appropriately.
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Can we agree that revealing anything about yourself - being gender, skin color, religion preferences, nationality, sexual preferences, even political preferences - is a problem on the internet ?
The ones who start flirting with her are just as bad as the ones who are mean
Why ?
That is ridiculous not mean.
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On March 10 2015 02:17 levelping wrote:Show nested quote +On March 10 2015 02:12 zlefin wrote:On March 10 2015 01:41 Plansix wrote:On March 10 2015 01:36 wei2coolman wrote:I don't know if anyone watches fairly odd parents. But, there's this great episode on what illustrates a lot of what people are talking about this being a fairly non issue. It's the grey blob episode. So pretty much timmy is fed up with being bullied by the neighborhood dentist and his son. So he makes a wish that everyone was exactly the same. So everyone in the world turn in grey blobs, and the entire world is shades of grey. He then goes to visit the dentist and his son to claim that they can no longer make fun of him since they were exactly the same. Guess what the dentist and the son say? They claim that they're the greyest of the grey blobs and blobbiest of blobs and that Timmy was not as good as them. In the end, timmy reaches the conclusion that assholes are going to be assholes no matter what, so you should just be proud of who you are. link to synopsis So harassment of women gaming isn't an issue because this cartoon on Cartoon Network told you so, even though the New York Times(and every other news major new agency) is reporting otherwise? I'm not sure where you get this response, as it seems wholly different from what the post you quoted talked about. It also feels oddly and needlessly aggressive. Well I am not sure how anyone is supposed to seriously respond to an argument based on an episode of a cartoon. And anyway I'm not even sure what is the point that is being made - no one is asking that everyone on the internet act in the same one. Just be polite (e.g. no more rape jokes), and respect your other gamers, some of whom are female.
Im not sure why the fact that its a cartoon necessarily invalidates it's point, but the point hes making isnt necessarily that everyone should just be the same so much as that dicks are going to be dicks and that rather than try to change everyone around him he should have just accepted that they're going to be dicks and not to take their shit to heart.
It would be nice if people wouldn't be dicks but thats the kind of change that can be expected to take a longer period of time, the way I tend to see it is that in the meantime you have to make do, if I ever dip my feet in WoW's trade chat I'm prepared to be called faggot, bitch, get told to get fucked by 12 inch black dildos in the ass, and if they discover I'm hispanic I can expect the usual racial slurs, which sucks, but in the meantime I have to just not be in trade chat, which is a shame, but I think an important part of being a part of an online community is having the mental fortitude to separate yourselves from the many cesspools that exist around whatever game you're playing.
I stick to my guild chat with good, friendly people who aren't going to repeatedly tell me to go get fucked in the mouth with 100 tiny dildos, in an ideal world people would just not tell me to get fucked in the mouth with 100 tiny dildos, but we don't live in that perfect world and in the meantime I make do.
I dont think the cartoon makes a perfect example for the long term, but in the meantime some solutions are really to grow thicker skin, or disassociate yourself with fuckwits. Hopefully in the future these cesspools will shrink, but I'm willing to bet they won't be gone tomorrow, so you have to make do.
Eventually if enough people choose not to associate with the fuckwits they'll be choked out or secluded and hopefully out of the general environment enough to have a more pleasurable gaming experience. Thats an ideal world though, and maybe internet anonymity will keep the cesspools live and well.
Just to make it perfectly clear I am NOT saying girls just need to toughen the fuck up and let the gaming sphere remain as it is forever, I'm saying they'll have to accept some intermittent solutions to make gaming more tolerable because this sort of change just can't happen over night, when tomorrow comes the fuckwits will wake up and their fuckwittery will continue. It sucks, but thats kind of the reality of the situation, at least for the near future.
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Netherlands6192 Posts
On March 10 2015 02:25 ZasZ. wrote:Show nested quote +On March 10 2015 01:39 dravernor wrote:On March 09 2015 03:22 Paljas wrote:On March 09 2015 02:37 dravernor wrote:
Don't reveal you're a girl, simple!
I am a bit suprised that you dont think that this is problematic. Well, of course it is problematic, but I think it is more problematic that people in general get abused like that, not just girls. I'm aware my (half joking) suggestion is avoiding the issue as a short term answer. However, unless a game specifically asks you to define your gender when playing online with other people, there is no reason to welcome such treatment by revealing that you're a girl. It isn't really relevant to the context of most casual, social games, and doesn't need to be highlighted unnecessarily. I don't know where I stand on this. Sure girls get treated badly and take it more to heart than guys online, but I don't think it warrants a documentary exclusively on how women are abused. As some other posters have been saying - everyone gets abused. In the extreme cases of Zoe Quinn and that other lady Brianna where their personal security was threatened, then I can understand, but most abuse and threats thrown around on the internet are idle and immature. The problem really is that people have no respect for anyone else. You don't see a problem with the fact that the best way for women to avoid being harassed in online gaming is to not reveal their gender or outright pretend they are men? I disagree with a lot of the really rabid feminism going around nowadays in the gaming industry, but to deny there is any sexist problem at all is delusional. Just watch any twitch stream of an esports event or conference and wait for a woman to get on stage and start talking. The "GRILL" will be deafening. And before you say "well that's twitch chat," that's the whole point. It's a representation of the darkest corners of the gaming community having a voice and no interest in using that voice respectfully. Another example is whenever a girl speaks up over voice chat in Dota and immediately everyone's attitude changes. The ones who start flirting with her are just as bad as the ones who are mean, it just fosters an uncomfortable atmosphere for everyone and makes females feel like they are trying to be part of a male culture. It's a systemic issue that doesn't really have a discrete cause that can be addressed, we just have to get better. It starts with people teaching their children that the internet is no different from any other public forum and they should conduct themselves appropriately.
I'm not disagreeing? There is definitely a problem with the way people get treated over the internet, because it is 'anonymous' and they don't have to be held accountable for their behaviour.
Yes, it is a problem that a female gets harassed by revealing her gender. I'm not denying that. But why risk being treated that way when this whole situation exists in its current form? As you said, the real change will occur when children are taught to respect and care for other people regardless of medium.
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On March 10 2015 02:25 ZasZ. wrote:Show nested quote +On March 10 2015 01:39 dravernor wrote:On March 09 2015 03:22 Paljas wrote:On March 09 2015 02:37 dravernor wrote:
Don't reveal you're a girl, simple!
I am a bit suprised that you dont think that this is problematic. Well, of course it is problematic, but I think it is more problematic that people in general get abused like that, not just girls. I'm aware my (half joking) suggestion is avoiding the issue as a short term answer. However, unless a game specifically asks you to define your gender when playing online with other people, there is no reason to welcome such treatment by revealing that you're a girl. It isn't really relevant to the context of most casual, social games, and doesn't need to be highlighted unnecessarily. I don't know where I stand on this. Sure girls get treated badly and take it more to heart than guys online, but I don't think it warrants a documentary exclusively on how women are abused. As some other posters have been saying - everyone gets abused. In the extreme cases of Zoe Quinn and that other lady Brianna where their personal security was threatened, then I can understand, but most abuse and threats thrown around on the internet are idle and immature. The problem really is that people have no respect for anyone else. You don't see a problem with the fact that the best way for women to avoid being harassed in online gaming is to not reveal their gender or outright pretend they are men? I disagree with a lot of the really rabid feminism going around nowadays in the gaming industry, but to deny there is any sexist problem at all is delusional. Just watch any twitch stream of an esports event or conference and wait for a woman to get on stage and start talking. The "GRILL" will be deafening. And before you say "well that's twitch chat," that's the whole point. It's a representation of the darkest corners of the gaming community having a voice and no interest in using that voice respectfully. Another example is whenever a girl speaks up over voice chat in Dota and immediately everyone's attitude changes. The ones who start flirting with her are just as bad as the ones who are mean, it just fosters an uncomfortable atmosphere for everyone and makes females feel like they are trying to be part of a male culture. It's a systemic issue that doesn't really have a discrete cause that can be addressed, we just have to get better. It starts with people teaching their children that the internet is no different from any other public forum and they should conduct themselves appropriately.
How about the girls who get tons of extra positive attention solely because they're female? The twitch streamers who are just average at their games, but get thousands of subs because they're female. The MMO players who get free stuff from other players simply because they're female. There are plenty of women who make their gender known for nefarious reasons.
And gaming IS a male culture. For almost the entirety of the history of videogames, men were the vast majority of participants. Men are still the vast majority of participants in games other than Farmville or Candy Crush.
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EPT
