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On March 10 2015 03:15 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On March 10 2015 03:07 WhiteDog wrote:On March 10 2015 03:06 levelping wrote:On March 10 2015 03:03 WhiteDog wrote:On March 10 2015 03:00 Plansix wrote:On March 10 2015 02:53 WhiteDog wrote:On March 10 2015 02:47 ZasZ. wrote:On March 10 2015 02:37 WhiteDog wrote:Can we agree that revealing anything about yourself - being gender, skin color, religion preferences, sexual preferences, even political preferences - is a problem on the internet ? The ones who start flirting with her are just as bad as the ones who are mean Why ? That ridiculous not mean. Well gender is not really like any of those other things, especially if the game uses voice communication. If a female wants to play any MMO, LoL, or Dota at a semi-serious level, she will be on voice communication sooner rather than later and will not have a choice about revealing her gender. As for those other character traits, yeah I would find it a little strange if someone loaded up a game of Dota and declared to both teams "I am a black, agnostic, gay libertarian," but no one should be hostile if they did choose to say that. Most would probably assume they are a troll. But a woman reveals herself as female just by opening her mouth and participating in the game as it was meant to be played. Having to refuse to use voice chat or pretend to be male in order to enjoy the game doesn't really seem equitable does it? And "just as bad," is probably the wrong choice of words, it's just bad in a different way. Obviously it doesn't get much worse than death or rape threats. But the awkward neck-beards who pipe up with "omg a girl" as soon as she opens her mouth are contributing to the same bad environment where everyone but him is uncomfortable. How about we just treat her like another teammate rather than an elusive pokemon. You're a kid really if you believe hitting on a girl, even in such a clumsy manner as on the internet, is a "bad" behavior. Do you think all girls are weak little virgins that needs protection ? Sex is part of life, and men trying to find partners is absolutly normal. Never used voice communicator with strangers in games, didn't prevent me from achieving a good enough level. Its not bad behavior if you don't throw a fit if you get rejected in a most amazing manner. But unwanted sexual attention and the negative blow back that comes from rejecting said attention is something women deal with. http://www.theonion.com/articles/courageous-man-overcomes-womans-body-language-to-c,38152/This Onion article pretty much sums up the issue that women face with unwanted sexual attention. The article does not respond to my point at all. It's harassment, not hitting on a girl. And seriously, first world problem. You part of those people that believe unattractive men should not hit on girls ? I think that article is pretty clearly just saying that unwanted attention from clueless guys is annoying and is something that girls have to put up with. Her "body language" is saying no it must mean he already made his move right ? Pretty much yes. You can pretty much tell if a girl doesn't want your attention in the first 5 minutes of talking with her. Maybe even less if you are just introducing yourself for the first time. Also, by making this advance, you are putting the woman an awkward situation. She doesn't want to be a jerk, but wants to be clear she isn't interested. The burden is on her to be both very clear and not to hurt the guys feelings. And when the person is socially awkward or just an idiot, its makes it even harder. Its why most of the single women I know have fake wedding/engagement rings for when they go out.
You have fully interiorized the hypocrisy of sexual relations. Congratulation.
On March 10 2015 03:18 levelping wrote:Show nested quote +On March 10 2015 03:14 WhiteDog wrote:On March 10 2015 03:11 levelping wrote:On March 10 2015 03:07 WhiteDog wrote:On March 10 2015 03:06 levelping wrote:On March 10 2015 03:03 WhiteDog wrote:On March 10 2015 03:00 Plansix wrote:On March 10 2015 02:53 WhiteDog wrote:On March 10 2015 02:47 ZasZ. wrote:On March 10 2015 02:37 WhiteDog wrote:
Can we agree that revealing anything about yourself - being gender, skin color, religion preferences, sexual preferences, even political preferences - is a problem on the internet ?
[quote]
Why ?
That ridiculous not mean. Well gender is not really like any of those other things, especially if the game uses voice communication. If a female wants to play any MMO, LoL, or Dota at a semi-serious level, she will be on voice communication sooner rather than later and will not have a choice about revealing her gender. As for those other character traits, yeah I would find it a little strange if someone loaded up a game of Dota and declared to both teams "I am a black, agnostic, gay libertarian," but no one should be hostile if they did choose to say that. Most would probably assume they are a troll. But a woman reveals herself as female just by opening her mouth and participating in the game as it was meant to be played. Having to refuse to use voice chat or pretend to be male in order to enjoy the game doesn't really seem equitable does it? And "just as bad," is probably the wrong choice of words, it's just bad in a different way. Obviously it doesn't get much worse than death or rape threats. But the awkward neck-beards who pipe up with "omg a girl" as soon as she opens her mouth are contributing to the same bad environment where everyone but him is uncomfortable. How about we just treat her like another teammate rather than an elusive pokemon. You're a kid really if you believe hitting on a girl, even in such a clumsy manner as on the internet, is a "bad" behavior. Do you think all girls are weak little virgins that needs protection ? Sex is part of life, and men trying to find partners is absolutly normal. Never used voice communicator with strangers in games, didn't prevent me from achieving a good enough level. Its not bad behavior if you don't throw a fit if you get rejected in a most amazing manner. But unwanted sexual attention and the negative blow back that comes from rejecting said attention is something women deal with. http://www.theonion.com/articles/courageous-man-overcomes-womans-body-language-to-c,38152/This Onion article pretty much sums up the issue that women face with unwanted sexual attention. The article does not respond to my point at all. It's harassment, not hitting on a girl. And seriously, first world problem. You part of those people that believe unattractive men should not hit on girls ? I think that article is pretty clearly just saying that unwanted attention from clueless guys is annoying and is something that girls have to put up with. Her "body language" is saying no it must mean he already made his move right ? Um I'm not sure what point you are trying to make (is english your first language? No offence meant, just asking because of your France tag). The article is just mocking a situation where a girl is giving the "body language" of "no" to the guy, but the guy cannot take the hint and keeps going on anyway (i.e. keeps making moves even after the girl is indicating she is not interested). The girl gets annoyed and leaves. The article also implies that for the guy to hit on the girl like that is sometimes celebrated as being "manly" and "direct" (I think this is hinted at by the suggestion that the man in the article is a hero and very brave). Yeah english is not my first language. Anyway, you don't seem to understand : the guy already made his move in the article. Zasz meanwhile suggest that just having attention toward women is a misconduct. Just asking out is no problem, sure if you keep going at it despite the girl saying no is a problem, those two things are entirely different. I understood Zasz as making a point about unwanted attention, and not that guys should never pull the moves on a girl online. Maybe it was not too clear in his post. The article is reflective of what I have sometimes seen in games - guy tries to hit on girl, is politely let down, but guy does not take hint and keeps going. This gets very uncomfortable for the girl, obviously.
Zasz first comment.
The ones who start flirting with her are just as bad as the ones who are mean
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On March 10 2015 03:16 Zambrah wrote:+ Show Spoiler ++ Show Spoiler +On March 10 2015 03:00 levelping wrote:Show nested quote +On March 10 2015 02:54 Zambrah wrote:On March 10 2015 02:44 levelping wrote:On March 10 2015 02:39 Zambrah wrote:On March 10 2015 02:17 levelping wrote:On March 10 2015 02:12 zlefin wrote:On March 10 2015 01:41 Plansix wrote:On March 10 2015 01:36 wei2coolman wrote:I don't know if anyone watches fairly odd parents. But, there's this great episode on what illustrates a lot of what people are talking about this being a fairly non issue. It's the grey blob episode. So pretty much timmy is fed up with being bullied by the neighborhood dentist and his son. So he makes a wish that everyone was exactly the same. So everyone in the world turn in grey blobs, and the entire world is shades of grey. He then goes to visit the dentist and his son to claim that they can no longer make fun of him since they were exactly the same. Guess what the dentist and the son say? They claim that they're the greyest of the grey blobs and blobbiest of blobs and that Timmy was not as good as them. In the end, timmy reaches the conclusion that assholes are going to be assholes no matter what, so you should just be proud of who you are. link to synopsis So harassment of women gaming isn't an issue because this cartoon on Cartoon Network told you so, even though the New York Times(and every other news major new agency) is reporting otherwise? I'm not sure where you get this response, as it seems wholly different from what the post you quoted talked about. It also feels oddly and needlessly aggressive. Well I am not sure how anyone is supposed to seriously respond to an argument based on an episode of a cartoon. And anyway I'm not even sure what is the point that is being made - no one is asking that everyone on the internet act in the same one. Just be polite (e.g. no more rape jokes), and respect your other gamers, some of whom are female. Im not sure why the fact that its a cartoon necessarily invalidates it's point, but the point hes making isnt necessarily that everyone should just be the same so much as that dicks are going to be dicks and that rather than try to change everyone around him he should have just accepted that they're going to be dicks and not to take their shit to heart. It would be nice if people wouldn't be dicks but thats the kind of change that can be expected to take a longer period of time, the way I tend to see it is that in the meantime you have to make do, if I ever dip my feet in WoW's trade chat I'm prepared to be called faggot, bitch, get told to get fucked by 12 inch black dildos in the ass, and if they discover I'm hispanic I can expect the usual racial slurs, which sucks, but in the meantime I have to just not be in trade chat, which is a shame, but I think an important part of being a part of an online community is having the mental fortitude to separate yourselves from the many cesspools that exist around whatever game you're playing. I stick to my guild chat with good, friendly people who aren't going to repeatedly tell me to go get fucked in the mouth with 100 tiny dildos, in an ideal world people would just not tell me to get fucked in the mouth with 100 tiny dildos, but we don't live in that perfect world and in the meantime I make do. I dont think the cartoon makes a perfect example for the long term, but in the meantime some solutions are really to grow thicker skin, or disassociate yourself with fuckwits. Hopefully in the future these cesspools will shrink, but I'm willing to bet they won't be gone tomorrow, so you have to make do. Eventually if enough people choose not to associate with the fuckwits they'll be choked out or secluded and hopefully out of the general environment enough to have a more pleasurable gaming experience. Thats an ideal world though, and maybe internet anonymity will keep the cesspools live and well. Just to make it perfectly clear I am NOT saying girls just need to toughen the fuck up and let the gaming sphere remain as it is forever, I'm saying they'll have to accept some intermittent solutions to make gaming more tolerable because this sort of change just can't happen over night, when tomorrow comes the fuckwits will wake up and their fuckwittery will continue. It sucks, but thats kind of the reality of the situation, at least for the near future. But don't you see that adopting a "well everyone is going to be a dick, so toughen up" even as a temporary measure just validates people being dicks, and more importantly, prevents an important discussion on a long term solution. If everyone just puts up with rudeness and harassment then where's the impetus to address such rudeness and harassment? And don't you see how as male gamers who do not face the same sort of harassment as girls, it is rather presumptive to tell other people to just toughen up to problems that we do not really face? Im just not particularly sure what the alternative solution is for the mean time. Do girls just stop playing games? That would suck. I know female gamers that have already "toughened up" which is a crappy way to phrase it actually, they've just found places where people aren't fuckwits to one another and they enjoy their time with people who aren't, well, fuckwits. Though some really do just kind of shrug it off, they can do that, some people can't do that, which is fine, takes a great deal of fortitude not to be ground down by the incessant waves of asininity (is that a word.) I mean whats the alternative? Do you just drown in the sea of vitriol? While the discussions happen time won't halt and the idiots won't just subside out of politeness. The alternative to learning to deal with the shit/avoiding the shit is to just not game and I consider that to be the lesser of the three options. It sucks that those are the options for now, but Im not sure what else is to be done. This sort of change just doesn't happen over night. I don't think that anyone, least of all the makers of the documentary, are expecting change over night. But these discussions are still important because they (a) raise awareness of the issue of sexual harassment; (b) of the issue of passive sexim; and (c) let new people coming into the community know that this is a live issue which is being discussed and they cannot expect a free pass with whatever racist/sexist/homphobic nonsense they might spout. TL's moderation stance on some of these issues is probably a good example of the small steps that we can be taken. I mean even if it's a situation of you telling someone else off on line for making a rape threat etc, yeah in the short run it will probably not amount to much (you'd get called a SJW or whatever is trending these days), but if enough people start to make clear that such behaviour is not being tolerated then we are heading somewhere. Wasn't it quite recent that some Starcraft personalities got fired/punished for saying stupid things on stream (can't remember the details). But what do female gamers do about it now? Again, I'm not saying we just shouldn't have discussions about the way females are being treated in games, its pretty heinous, what I'm saying is that those discussions aren't changing things immediately and what other options do we have to make gaming more pleasant for female gamers in the present rather than the future, than for them to 1. adopt thicker skins, 2. stay out of vitriolic cesspools. It just seems to me that people refuse to accept that sometimes you have take some personal action, the world can't immediately change around you, sometimes you have to do this sort of thing. Which, again, sucks. But what are the real alternatives? Discussions are great, I think they're less great for changing people's minds (at least for this particular issue which seems to be super polarizing), but what they can do is encourage people who already hold these beliefs to be more confident in practicing their beliefs in a more forward way. I think thats the future, people eventually phasing out the fuckwits as it becomes less mainstream and acceptable to be a fuckwit. For the future, discussions are great, but it confuses me that people would refuse to take certain measures to have a more pleasant gaming experience out of some idealist principle. We just don't live in that idealist world, in the future the world will hopefully be more like that ideal, and making it more mainstream and common to hold beliefs that don't tolerate fuckwittery are definitely the future, but I just don't believe they're the present, and it seems like both sides are arguing with a different schedule of change in mind.
Thicker skins and female only/female friendly communities are obviously one way. But the girl-friendly communities do not make themselves, and so you need groups of like minded gamers to start coming together to achieve that. And discussions facilitate this. I think this is a pretty short term goal too.
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On March 10 2015 03:07 WhiteDog wrote:Show nested quote +On March 10 2015 03:06 levelping wrote:On March 10 2015 03:03 WhiteDog wrote:On March 10 2015 03:00 Plansix wrote:On March 10 2015 02:53 WhiteDog wrote:On March 10 2015 02:47 ZasZ. wrote:On March 10 2015 02:37 WhiteDog wrote:Can we agree that revealing anything about yourself - being gender, skin color, religion preferences, sexual preferences, even political preferences - is a problem on the internet ? The ones who start flirting with her are just as bad as the ones who are mean Why ? That ridiculous not mean. Well gender is not really like any of those other things, especially if the game uses voice communication. If a female wants to play any MMO, LoL, or Dota at a semi-serious level, she will be on voice communication sooner rather than later and will not have a choice about revealing her gender. As for those other character traits, yeah I would find it a little strange if someone loaded up a game of Dota and declared to both teams "I am a black, agnostic, gay libertarian," but no one should be hostile if they did choose to say that. Most would probably assume they are a troll. But a woman reveals herself as female just by opening her mouth and participating in the game as it was meant to be played. Having to refuse to use voice chat or pretend to be male in order to enjoy the game doesn't really seem equitable does it? And "just as bad," is probably the wrong choice of words, it's just bad in a different way. Obviously it doesn't get much worse than death or rape threats. But the awkward neck-beards who pipe up with "omg a girl" as soon as she opens her mouth are contributing to the same bad environment where everyone but him is uncomfortable. How about we just treat her like another teammate rather than an elusive pokemon. You're a kid really if you believe hitting on a girl, even in such a clumsy manner as on the internet, is a "bad" behavior. Do you think all girls are weak little virgins that needs protection ? Sex is part of life, and men trying to find partners is absolutly normal. Never used voice communicator with strangers in games, didn't prevent me from achieving a good enough level. Its not bad behavior if you don't throw a fit if you get rejected in a most amazing manner. But unwanted sexual attention and the negative blow back that comes from rejecting said attention is something women deal with. http://www.theonion.com/articles/courageous-man-overcomes-womans-body-language-to-c,38152/This Onion article pretty much sums up the issue that women face with unwanted sexual attention. The article does not respond to my point at all. It's harassment, not hitting on a girl. And seriously, first world problem. You part of those people that believe unattractive men should not hit on girls ? I think that article is pretty clearly just saying that unwanted attention from clueless guys is annoying and is something that girls have to put up with. Her "body language" is saying no it must mean he already made his move right ? Show nested quote +On March 10 2015 03:07 ZasZ. wrote:On March 10 2015 02:53 WhiteDog wrote:On March 10 2015 02:47 ZasZ. wrote:On March 10 2015 02:37 WhiteDog wrote:Can we agree that revealing anything about yourself - being gender, skin color, religion preferences, sexual preferences, even political preferences - is a problem on the internet ? The ones who start flirting with her are just as bad as the ones who are mean Why ? That ridiculous not mean. Well gender is not really like any of those other things, especially if the game uses voice communication. If a female wants to play any MMO, LoL, or Dota at a semi-serious level, she will be on voice communication sooner rather than later and will not have a choice about revealing her gender. As for those other character traits, yeah I would find it a little strange if someone loaded up a game of Dota and declared to both teams "I am a black, agnostic, gay libertarian," but no one should be hostile if they did choose to say that. Most would probably assume they are a troll. But a woman reveals herself as female just by opening her mouth and participating in the game as it was meant to be played. Having to refuse to use voice chat or pretend to be male in order to enjoy the game doesn't really seem equitable does it? And "just as bad," is probably the wrong choice of words, it's just bad in a different way. Obviously it doesn't get much worse than death or rape threats. But the awkward neck-beards who pipe up with "omg a girl" as soon as she opens her mouth are contributing to the same bad environment where everyone but him is uncomfortable. How about we just treat her like another teammate rather than an elusive pokemon. You're a kid really if you believe hitting on a girl, even in such a clumsy manner as on the internet, is a "bad" behavior. Do you think all girls are weak little virgins that needs protection ? Sex is part of life, and men trying to find partners is absolutly normal. Never used voice communicator with strangers in games, didn't prevent me from achieving a good enough level. And you are sexist if you think unsolicited flirting has no right to make people feel uncomfortable. Look, in real life if you go up to a complete stranger and hit on them, it might work out. The more likely response is that person thinks you are a creep for not even starting up a casual conversation first, and blows you off. Also, "men trying to find partners is absolutely normal," makes my skin crawl. This isn't the African savannah during mating season, it's a video game. People have every right to feel uncomfortable when complete strangers flirt with them in a video game. And as a 3rd party, it makes me uncomfortable as hell too, but at least I am not the target. And just because you don't use voice communication doesn't mean that others don't. Depending on the game, many people consider it necessary to even be remotely competitive, and it is also very common in MMOs, which have a larger female demographic than many other gaming genres. Having played a lot of WoW in my time, if you had refused to use voice communication in one of the guilds I was in, it meant you weren't coming along. Yes I am sexist now... Unsolicited flirting can make people feel uncomfortable, but that doesn't mean it is a bad behavior. There's ton of people that have difficulties entering places that are made for men and women to flirt : in my country, good luck going in a nice nightclub if you're a man with no girl, especially if you're not white. So, considering this, can I accept some people to flirt in weird places despite the inconvenience and - maybe - the possibility that it makes girls "uncomfortable" ? You know that's a racist comment right ? And in MMOs you play with stranger ?
Yeah, actually it does make it bad behavior. If you really do want to flirt with girl X or girl Y you literally just met in a video game, how about you treat her like a person, have a real conversation, and take it from there? 99 times out of a 100 that will probably work better than asking for pics or clumsy pick-up lines. The fact that women have to accept they will be a sounding board for sexually frustrated males if they play social video games is a symptom of the problem. Nightclubs are not the only place to meet women, and there are place on the internet (i.e. dating sites) designed for like-minded people to get in touch. The girl in this example loaded up a video game to play a video game, not to meet her future husband. If she wanted that, she would be on match.com, not dota.
And I was talking about animals, not people, in that analogy, because that was the closest analogy to what you described. "Men trying to find partners," is more something out of a nature documentary or a dating website than a video game. Thanks for trying to declare me a racist though, much appreciated.
And yes? You play with hundreds of people in MMO's, you can't be buddy buddy with all of them. Even within your guild, there will be people you know better than others and people you like better than others. And women in MMO's were almost always treated differently than men, in my experience, especially if they were single or their partner didn't play with them. I was 16-18 at the time, I'm pretty sure I was part of the problem.
EDIT: WhiteDog, learn to read the words on your screen man. I followed up that post explaining that just as bad was a poor choice of phrase, and that the unwanted positive attention is contributing negatively to the culture in a different way. Obviously nothing is worse than a rape or death threat.
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On March 10 2015 03:18 WhiteDog wrote:Show nested quote +On March 10 2015 03:15 Plansix wrote:On March 10 2015 03:07 WhiteDog wrote:On March 10 2015 03:06 levelping wrote:On March 10 2015 03:03 WhiteDog wrote:On March 10 2015 03:00 Plansix wrote:On March 10 2015 02:53 WhiteDog wrote:On March 10 2015 02:47 ZasZ. wrote:On March 10 2015 02:37 WhiteDog wrote:Can we agree that revealing anything about yourself - being gender, skin color, religion preferences, sexual preferences, even political preferences - is a problem on the internet ? The ones who start flirting with her are just as bad as the ones who are mean Why ? That ridiculous not mean. Well gender is not really like any of those other things, especially if the game uses voice communication. If a female wants to play any MMO, LoL, or Dota at a semi-serious level, she will be on voice communication sooner rather than later and will not have a choice about revealing her gender. As for those other character traits, yeah I would find it a little strange if someone loaded up a game of Dota and declared to both teams "I am a black, agnostic, gay libertarian," but no one should be hostile if they did choose to say that. Most would probably assume they are a troll. But a woman reveals herself as female just by opening her mouth and participating in the game as it was meant to be played. Having to refuse to use voice chat or pretend to be male in order to enjoy the game doesn't really seem equitable does it? And "just as bad," is probably the wrong choice of words, it's just bad in a different way. Obviously it doesn't get much worse than death or rape threats. But the awkward neck-beards who pipe up with "omg a girl" as soon as she opens her mouth are contributing to the same bad environment where everyone but him is uncomfortable. How about we just treat her like another teammate rather than an elusive pokemon. You're a kid really if you believe hitting on a girl, even in such a clumsy manner as on the internet, is a "bad" behavior. Do you think all girls are weak little virgins that needs protection ? Sex is part of life, and men trying to find partners is absolutly normal. Never used voice communicator with strangers in games, didn't prevent me from achieving a good enough level. Its not bad behavior if you don't throw a fit if you get rejected in a most amazing manner. But unwanted sexual attention and the negative blow back that comes from rejecting said attention is something women deal with. http://www.theonion.com/articles/courageous-man-overcomes-womans-body-language-to-c,38152/This Onion article pretty much sums up the issue that women face with unwanted sexual attention. The article does not respond to my point at all. It's harassment, not hitting on a girl. And seriously, first world problem. You part of those people that believe unattractive men should not hit on girls ? I think that article is pretty clearly just saying that unwanted attention from clueless guys is annoying and is something that girls have to put up with. Her "body language" is saying no it must mean he already made his move right ? Pretty much yes. You can pretty much tell if a girl doesn't want your attention in the first 5 minutes of talking with her. Maybe even less if you are just introducing yourself for the first time. Also, by making this advance, you are putting the woman an awkward situation. She doesn't want to be a jerk, but wants to be clear she isn't interested. The burden is on her to be both very clear and not to hurt the guys feelings. And when the person is socially awkward or just an idiot, its makes it even harder. Its why most of the single women I know have fake wedding/engagement rings for when they go out. You have fully interiorized the hypocrisy of sexual relations. Congratulation. Show nested quote +On March 10 2015 03:18 levelping wrote:On March 10 2015 03:14 WhiteDog wrote:On March 10 2015 03:11 levelping wrote:On March 10 2015 03:07 WhiteDog wrote:On March 10 2015 03:06 levelping wrote:On March 10 2015 03:03 WhiteDog wrote:On March 10 2015 03:00 Plansix wrote:On March 10 2015 02:53 WhiteDog wrote:On March 10 2015 02:47 ZasZ. wrote:
[quote]
Well gender is not really like any of those other things, especially if the game uses voice communication. If a female wants to play any MMO, LoL, or Dota at a semi-serious level, she will be on voice communication sooner rather than later and will not have a choice about revealing her gender. As for those other character traits, yeah I would find it a little strange if someone loaded up a game of Dota and declared to both teams "I am a black, agnostic, gay libertarian," but no one should be hostile if they did choose to say that. Most would probably assume they are a troll. But a woman reveals herself as female just by opening her mouth and participating in the game as it was meant to be played. Having to refuse to use voice chat or pretend to be male in order to enjoy the game doesn't really seem equitable does it?
And "just as bad," is probably the wrong choice of words, it's just bad in a different way. Obviously it doesn't get much worse than death or rape threats. But the awkward neck-beards who pipe up with "omg a girl" as soon as she opens her mouth are contributing to the same bad environment where everyone but him is uncomfortable. How about we just treat her like another teammate rather than an elusive pokemon. You're a kid really if you believe hitting on a girl, even in such a clumsy manner as on the internet, is a "bad" behavior. Do you think all girls are weak little virgins that needs protection ? Sex is part of life, and men trying to find partners is absolutly normal. Never used voice communicator with strangers in games, didn't prevent me from achieving a good enough level. Its not bad behavior if you don't throw a fit if you get rejected in a most amazing manner. But unwanted sexual attention and the negative blow back that comes from rejecting said attention is something women deal with. http://www.theonion.com/articles/courageous-man-overcomes-womans-body-language-to-c,38152/This Onion article pretty much sums up the issue that women face with unwanted sexual attention. The article does not respond to my point at all. It's harassment, not hitting on a girl. And seriously, first world problem. You part of those people that believe unattractive men should not hit on girls ? I think that article is pretty clearly just saying that unwanted attention from clueless guys is annoying and is something that girls have to put up with. Her "body language" is saying no it must mean he already made his move right ? Um I'm not sure what point you are trying to make (is english your first language? No offence meant, just asking because of your France tag). The article is just mocking a situation where a girl is giving the "body language" of "no" to the guy, but the guy cannot take the hint and keeps going on anyway (i.e. keeps making moves even after the girl is indicating she is not interested). The girl gets annoyed and leaves. The article also implies that for the guy to hit on the girl like that is sometimes celebrated as being "manly" and "direct" (I think this is hinted at by the suggestion that the man in the article is a hero and very brave). Yeah english is not my first language. Anyway, you don't seem to understand : the guy already made his move in the article. Zasz meanwhile suggest that just having attention toward women is a misconduct. Just asking out is no problem, sure if you keep going at it despite the girl saying no is a problem, those two things are entirely different. I understood Zasz as making a point about unwanted attention, and not that guys should never pull the moves on a girl online. Maybe it was not too clear in his post. The article is reflective of what I have sometimes seen in games - guy tries to hit on girl, is politely let down, but guy does not take hint and keeps going. This gets very uncomfortable for the girl, obviously. Zasz first comment. Show nested quote +The ones who start flirting with her are just as bad as the ones who are mean
I think he later added on "But the awkward neck-beards who pipe up with "omg a girl" as soon as she opens her mouth are contributing to the same bad environment where everyone but him is uncomfortable." Seems like it's the awkwardness and unwanted nature of the attention that Zasz is taking issue with.
And anyway maybe he is taking the view that when girls play games they just want to play games and not getting hit on? I think that is a pretty reasonable view to take as well.
Anyway I'll let him clarify his own post.
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And I was talking about animals, not people, in that analogy, because that was the closest analogy to what you described. "Men trying to find partners," is more something out of a nature documentary or a dating website than a video game. Thanks for trying to declare me a racist though, much appreciated.
Then don't use "Africa" as your exemple next time. There are animals in the US too.
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On March 10 2015 03:18 WhiteDog wrote:Show nested quote +On March 10 2015 03:15 Plansix wrote:On March 10 2015 03:07 WhiteDog wrote:On March 10 2015 03:06 levelping wrote:On March 10 2015 03:03 WhiteDog wrote:On March 10 2015 03:00 Plansix wrote:On March 10 2015 02:53 WhiteDog wrote:On March 10 2015 02:47 ZasZ. wrote:On March 10 2015 02:37 WhiteDog wrote:Can we agree that revealing anything about yourself - being gender, skin color, religion preferences, sexual preferences, even political preferences - is a problem on the internet ? The ones who start flirting with her are just as bad as the ones who are mean Why ? That ridiculous not mean. Well gender is not really like any of those other things, especially if the game uses voice communication. If a female wants to play any MMO, LoL, or Dota at a semi-serious level, she will be on voice communication sooner rather than later and will not have a choice about revealing her gender. As for those other character traits, yeah I would find it a little strange if someone loaded up a game of Dota and declared to both teams "I am a black, agnostic, gay libertarian," but no one should be hostile if they did choose to say that. Most would probably assume they are a troll. But a woman reveals herself as female just by opening her mouth and participating in the game as it was meant to be played. Having to refuse to use voice chat or pretend to be male in order to enjoy the game doesn't really seem equitable does it? And "just as bad," is probably the wrong choice of words, it's just bad in a different way. Obviously it doesn't get much worse than death or rape threats. But the awkward neck-beards who pipe up with "omg a girl" as soon as she opens her mouth are contributing to the same bad environment where everyone but him is uncomfortable. How about we just treat her like another teammate rather than an elusive pokemon. You're a kid really if you believe hitting on a girl, even in such a clumsy manner as on the internet, is a "bad" behavior. Do you think all girls are weak little virgins that needs protection ? Sex is part of life, and men trying to find partners is absolutly normal. Never used voice communicator with strangers in games, didn't prevent me from achieving a good enough level. Its not bad behavior if you don't throw a fit if you get rejected in a most amazing manner. But unwanted sexual attention and the negative blow back that comes from rejecting said attention is something women deal with. http://www.theonion.com/articles/courageous-man-overcomes-womans-body-language-to-c,38152/This Onion article pretty much sums up the issue that women face with unwanted sexual attention. The article does not respond to my point at all. It's harassment, not hitting on a girl. And seriously, first world problem. You part of those people that believe unattractive men should not hit on girls ? I think that article is pretty clearly just saying that unwanted attention from clueless guys is annoying and is something that girls have to put up with. Her "body language" is saying no it must mean he already made his move right ? Pretty much yes. You can pretty much tell if a girl doesn't want your attention in the first 5 minutes of talking with her. Maybe even less if you are just introducing yourself for the first time. Also, by making this advance, you are putting the woman an awkward situation. She doesn't want to be a jerk, but wants to be clear she isn't interested. The burden is on her to be both very clear and not to hurt the guys feelings. And when the person is socially awkward or just an idiot, its makes it even harder. Its why most of the single women I know have fake wedding/engagement rings for when they go out. You have fully interiorized the hypocrisy of sexual relations. Congratulation.
What the fuck does that even mean?
The only hypocrisy I see in sexual relations is that some dudes feel that hitting on a girl is totally ok because she should be excited that she is attractive enough to get his attention.
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On March 10 2015 03:26 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On March 10 2015 03:18 WhiteDog wrote:On March 10 2015 03:15 Plansix wrote:On March 10 2015 03:07 WhiteDog wrote:On March 10 2015 03:06 levelping wrote:On March 10 2015 03:03 WhiteDog wrote:On March 10 2015 03:00 Plansix wrote:On March 10 2015 02:53 WhiteDog wrote:On March 10 2015 02:47 ZasZ. wrote:On March 10 2015 02:37 WhiteDog wrote:
Can we agree that revealing anything about yourself - being gender, skin color, religion preferences, sexual preferences, even political preferences - is a problem on the internet ?
[quote]
Why ?
That ridiculous not mean. Well gender is not really like any of those other things, especially if the game uses voice communication. If a female wants to play any MMO, LoL, or Dota at a semi-serious level, she will be on voice communication sooner rather than later and will not have a choice about revealing her gender. As for those other character traits, yeah I would find it a little strange if someone loaded up a game of Dota and declared to both teams "I am a black, agnostic, gay libertarian," but no one should be hostile if they did choose to say that. Most would probably assume they are a troll. But a woman reveals herself as female just by opening her mouth and participating in the game as it was meant to be played. Having to refuse to use voice chat or pretend to be male in order to enjoy the game doesn't really seem equitable does it? And "just as bad," is probably the wrong choice of words, it's just bad in a different way. Obviously it doesn't get much worse than death or rape threats. But the awkward neck-beards who pipe up with "omg a girl" as soon as she opens her mouth are contributing to the same bad environment where everyone but him is uncomfortable. How about we just treat her like another teammate rather than an elusive pokemon. You're a kid really if you believe hitting on a girl, even in such a clumsy manner as on the internet, is a "bad" behavior. Do you think all girls are weak little virgins that needs protection ? Sex is part of life, and men trying to find partners is absolutly normal. Never used voice communicator with strangers in games, didn't prevent me from achieving a good enough level. Its not bad behavior if you don't throw a fit if you get rejected in a most amazing manner. But unwanted sexual attention and the negative blow back that comes from rejecting said attention is something women deal with. http://www.theonion.com/articles/courageous-man-overcomes-womans-body-language-to-c,38152/This Onion article pretty much sums up the issue that women face with unwanted sexual attention. The article does not respond to my point at all. It's harassment, not hitting on a girl. And seriously, first world problem. You part of those people that believe unattractive men should not hit on girls ? I think that article is pretty clearly just saying that unwanted attention from clueless guys is annoying and is something that girls have to put up with. Her "body language" is saying no it must mean he already made his move right ? Pretty much yes. You can pretty much tell if a girl doesn't want your attention in the first 5 minutes of talking with her. Maybe even less if you are just introducing yourself for the first time. Also, by making this advance, you are putting the woman an awkward situation. She doesn't want to be a jerk, but wants to be clear she isn't interested. The burden is on her to be both very clear and not to hurt the guys feelings. And when the person is socially awkward or just an idiot, its makes it even harder. Its why most of the single women I know have fake wedding/engagement rings for when they go out. You have fully interiorized the hypocrisy of sexual relations. Congratulation. What the fuck does that even mean? The only hypocrisy I see in sexual relations is that some dudes feel that hitting on a girl is totally ok because she should be excited that she is attractive enough to get his attention.
And women wants attention, but from men they feel attracted to and in places they want to. The two not wanting to show their underlying motive, which is reproduction - pleasant event right ?
Love, it's beautiful.
Like really why are we discussing that ? Do I care ? Did you read ? Zasz was saying just hitting on a girl is a bad behavior - "different from rape insult" but not less problematic (that's his exact comment). If you believe that is true - that hitting on a girl in wow is as problematic as insulting a girl - then fine. Aside from that, I never said that hitting on a girl and still going at it after she clearly said no, is not a problematic.
But seduction even in video games, even coming from kids that are clumsy and can't understand how it's done, is not a "problem of the gaming culture", it's normal sexual relations. That's our biological nature.
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On March 10 2015 03:20 levelping wrote:Show nested quote +On March 10 2015 03:16 Zambrah wrote:+ Show Spoiler ++ Show Spoiler +On March 10 2015 03:00 levelping wrote:Show nested quote +On March 10 2015 02:54 Zambrah wrote:On March 10 2015 02:44 levelping wrote:On March 10 2015 02:39 Zambrah wrote:On March 10 2015 02:17 levelping wrote:On March 10 2015 02:12 zlefin wrote:On March 10 2015 01:41 Plansix wrote:On March 10 2015 01:36 wei2coolman wrote:I don't know if anyone watches fairly odd parents. But, there's this great episode on what illustrates a lot of what people are talking about this being a fairly non issue. It's the grey blob episode. So pretty much timmy is fed up with being bullied by the neighborhood dentist and his son. So he makes a wish that everyone was exactly the same. So everyone in the world turn in grey blobs, and the entire world is shades of grey. He then goes to visit the dentist and his son to claim that they can no longer make fun of him since they were exactly the same. Guess what the dentist and the son say? They claim that they're the greyest of the grey blobs and blobbiest of blobs and that Timmy was not as good as them. In the end, timmy reaches the conclusion that assholes are going to be assholes no matter what, so you should just be proud of who you are. link to synopsis So harassment of women gaming isn't an issue because this cartoon on Cartoon Network told you so, even though the New York Times(and every other news major new agency) is reporting otherwise? I'm not sure where you get this response, as it seems wholly different from what the post you quoted talked about. It also feels oddly and needlessly aggressive. Well I am not sure how anyone is supposed to seriously respond to an argument based on an episode of a cartoon. And anyway I'm not even sure what is the point that is being made - no one is asking that everyone on the internet act in the same one. Just be polite (e.g. no more rape jokes), and respect your other gamers, some of whom are female. Im not sure why the fact that its a cartoon necessarily invalidates it's point, but the point hes making isnt necessarily that everyone should just be the same so much as that dicks are going to be dicks and that rather than try to change everyone around him he should have just accepted that they're going to be dicks and not to take their shit to heart. It would be nice if people wouldn't be dicks but thats the kind of change that can be expected to take a longer period of time, the way I tend to see it is that in the meantime you have to make do, if I ever dip my feet in WoW's trade chat I'm prepared to be called faggot, bitch, get told to get fucked by 12 inch black dildos in the ass, and if they discover I'm hispanic I can expect the usual racial slurs, which sucks, but in the meantime I have to just not be in trade chat, which is a shame, but I think an important part of being a part of an online community is having the mental fortitude to separate yourselves from the many cesspools that exist around whatever game you're playing. I stick to my guild chat with good, friendly people who aren't going to repeatedly tell me to go get fucked in the mouth with 100 tiny dildos, in an ideal world people would just not tell me to get fucked in the mouth with 100 tiny dildos, but we don't live in that perfect world and in the meantime I make do. I dont think the cartoon makes a perfect example for the long term, but in the meantime some solutions are really to grow thicker skin, or disassociate yourself with fuckwits. Hopefully in the future these cesspools will shrink, but I'm willing to bet they won't be gone tomorrow, so you have to make do. Eventually if enough people choose not to associate with the fuckwits they'll be choked out or secluded and hopefully out of the general environment enough to have a more pleasurable gaming experience. Thats an ideal world though, and maybe internet anonymity will keep the cesspools live and well. Just to make it perfectly clear I am NOT saying girls just need to toughen the fuck up and let the gaming sphere remain as it is forever, I'm saying they'll have to accept some intermittent solutions to make gaming more tolerable because this sort of change just can't happen over night, when tomorrow comes the fuckwits will wake up and their fuckwittery will continue. It sucks, but thats kind of the reality of the situation, at least for the near future. But don't you see that adopting a "well everyone is going to be a dick, so toughen up" even as a temporary measure just validates people being dicks, and more importantly, prevents an important discussion on a long term solution. If everyone just puts up with rudeness and harassment then where's the impetus to address such rudeness and harassment? And don't you see how as male gamers who do not face the same sort of harassment as girls, it is rather presumptive to tell other people to just toughen up to problems that we do not really face? Im just not particularly sure what the alternative solution is for the mean time. Do girls just stop playing games? That would suck. I know female gamers that have already "toughened up" which is a crappy way to phrase it actually, they've just found places where people aren't fuckwits to one another and they enjoy their time with people who aren't, well, fuckwits. Though some really do just kind of shrug it off, they can do that, some people can't do that, which is fine, takes a great deal of fortitude not to be ground down by the incessant waves of asininity (is that a word.) I mean whats the alternative? Do you just drown in the sea of vitriol? While the discussions happen time won't halt and the idiots won't just subside out of politeness. The alternative to learning to deal with the shit/avoiding the shit is to just not game and I consider that to be the lesser of the three options. It sucks that those are the options for now, but Im not sure what else is to be done. This sort of change just doesn't happen over night. I don't think that anyone, least of all the makers of the documentary, are expecting change over night. But these discussions are still important because they (a) raise awareness of the issue of sexual harassment; (b) of the issue of passive sexim; and (c) let new people coming into the community know that this is a live issue which is being discussed and they cannot expect a free pass with whatever racist/sexist/homphobic nonsense they might spout. TL's moderation stance on some of these issues is probably a good example of the small steps that we can be taken. I mean even if it's a situation of you telling someone else off on line for making a rape threat etc, yeah in the short run it will probably not amount to much (you'd get called a SJW or whatever is trending these days), but if enough people start to make clear that such behaviour is not being tolerated then we are heading somewhere. Wasn't it quite recent that some Starcraft personalities got fired/punished for saying stupid things on stream (can't remember the details). But what do female gamers do about it now? Again, I'm not saying we just shouldn't have discussions about the way females are being treated in games, its pretty heinous, what I'm saying is that those discussions aren't changing things immediately and what other options do we have to make gaming more pleasant for female gamers in the present rather than the future, than for them to 1. adopt thicker skins, 2. stay out of vitriolic cesspools. It just seems to me that people refuse to accept that sometimes you have take some personal action, the world can't immediately change around you, sometimes you have to do this sort of thing. Which, again, sucks. But what are the real alternatives? Discussions are great, I think they're less great for changing people's minds (at least for this particular issue which seems to be super polarizing), but what they can do is encourage people who already hold these beliefs to be more confident in practicing their beliefs in a more forward way. I think thats the future, people eventually phasing out the fuckwits as it becomes less mainstream and acceptable to be a fuckwit. For the future, discussions are great, but it confuses me that people would refuse to take certain measures to have a more pleasant gaming experience out of some idealist principle. We just don't live in that idealist world, in the future the world will hopefully be more like that ideal, and making it more mainstream and common to hold beliefs that don't tolerate fuckwittery are definitely the future, but I just don't believe they're the present, and it seems like both sides are arguing with a different schedule of change in mind. Thicker skins and female only/female friendly communities are obviously one way. But the girl-friendly communities do not make themselves, and so you need groups of like minded gamers to start coming together to achieve that. And discussions facilitate this. I think this is a pretty short term goal too.
I think that they're more common than they'd appear, the problem is navigating your way to people who aren't dickbags, they put themselves at the forefront of the communities, they fill the local chats and they're pretty vocal about their dickbaggery. I imagine it can be very off putting to someone new to that realm, thats why I quit LoL, the community was just terrible.
I just feel like people take that one glimpse of the dickbags shouting in the forefront and use that as their whole view of the gaming community, which is part of that makes some people so upset about this. Maybe this is wrong, I mostly visit TL and play WoW nowadays and to be honest I try to make sure I'm not wading around in the cesspits, so maybe my efforts are just paying off spectacularly.
Again, I'm really not sure what other solutions are, the solutions I believe we have will improve over time surely, but it seems like people reject them entirely because they're not 100% ideal at this very moment. Thats what I dont agree with, that brand of idealism that rejects anything that isn't 100% up to it's standards, regardless of anything else. I just don't understand it.
I'm sure the solutions won't be necessary in due time, but why not adopt some measures to take more control over your own gaming experiences in the mean time, sure, they're not perfect, but in the meantime its kind of what we have. The options will improve and improve, there'll be more friendly communities, and they'll be bigger and easier to find, people will be less terrible (although I doubt ever perfect) and it'll get more comfortable, I just think its going to be a gradual process and that in the present there are measures that can be taken to be more comfortable in game.
I just want to make it clear that I'm not saying that these solutions should be the permanent goal, just that they're the bandaid for the wound, when the wound is healed the bandaid can come off and we can look back on the scar fondly. Or not so fondly.
Just seems like this issue polarizes people and it seems like two sides that tend to emerge make an effort to be obtuse, they refuse to acknowledge that the gaming community should shape up or they refuse to admit that you might have to take your gaming experience into your own hands while the community does shape up.
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On March 10 2015 03:30 WhiteDog wrote:Show nested quote +On March 10 2015 03:26 Plansix wrote:On March 10 2015 03:18 WhiteDog wrote:On March 10 2015 03:15 Plansix wrote:On March 10 2015 03:07 WhiteDog wrote:On March 10 2015 03:06 levelping wrote:On March 10 2015 03:03 WhiteDog wrote:On March 10 2015 03:00 Plansix wrote:On March 10 2015 02:53 WhiteDog wrote:On March 10 2015 02:47 ZasZ. wrote:
[quote]
Well gender is not really like any of those other things, especially if the game uses voice communication. If a female wants to play any MMO, LoL, or Dota at a semi-serious level, she will be on voice communication sooner rather than later and will not have a choice about revealing her gender. As for those other character traits, yeah I would find it a little strange if someone loaded up a game of Dota and declared to both teams "I am a black, agnostic, gay libertarian," but no one should be hostile if they did choose to say that. Most would probably assume they are a troll. But a woman reveals herself as female just by opening her mouth and participating in the game as it was meant to be played. Having to refuse to use voice chat or pretend to be male in order to enjoy the game doesn't really seem equitable does it?
And "just as bad," is probably the wrong choice of words, it's just bad in a different way. Obviously it doesn't get much worse than death or rape threats. But the awkward neck-beards who pipe up with "omg a girl" as soon as she opens her mouth are contributing to the same bad environment where everyone but him is uncomfortable. How about we just treat her like another teammate rather than an elusive pokemon. You're a kid really if you believe hitting on a girl, even in such a clumsy manner as on the internet, is a "bad" behavior. Do you think all girls are weak little virgins that needs protection ? Sex is part of life, and men trying to find partners is absolutly normal. Never used voice communicator with strangers in games, didn't prevent me from achieving a good enough level. Its not bad behavior if you don't throw a fit if you get rejected in a most amazing manner. But unwanted sexual attention and the negative blow back that comes from rejecting said attention is something women deal with. http://www.theonion.com/articles/courageous-man-overcomes-womans-body-language-to-c,38152/This Onion article pretty much sums up the issue that women face with unwanted sexual attention. The article does not respond to my point at all. It's harassment, not hitting on a girl. And seriously, first world problem. You part of those people that believe unattractive men should not hit on girls ? I think that article is pretty clearly just saying that unwanted attention from clueless guys is annoying and is something that girls have to put up with. Her "body language" is saying no it must mean he already made his move right ? Pretty much yes. You can pretty much tell if a girl doesn't want your attention in the first 5 minutes of talking with her. Maybe even less if you are just introducing yourself for the first time. Also, by making this advance, you are putting the woman an awkward situation. She doesn't want to be a jerk, but wants to be clear she isn't interested. The burden is on her to be both very clear and not to hurt the guys feelings. And when the person is socially awkward or just an idiot, its makes it even harder. Its why most of the single women I know have fake wedding/engagement rings for when they go out. You have fully interiorized the hypocrisy of sexual relations. Congratulation. What the fuck does that even mean? The only hypocrisy I see in sexual relations is that some dudes feel that hitting on a girl is totally ok because she should be excited that she is attractive enough to get his attention. And women wants attention, but from men they feel attracted to and in places they want to. The two not wanting to show their underlying motive, which is reproduction - pleasant event right ? Love, it's beautiful.
She doesn't want the attention. She wants to go out, be on a stream or play a game. Hate to break it to you, when girls get dressed up to go out, they don't do it to attract a guy. Thats the problem, you assume they want the attention, which they do not.
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On March 10 2015 03:34 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On March 10 2015 03:30 WhiteDog wrote:On March 10 2015 03:26 Plansix wrote:On March 10 2015 03:18 WhiteDog wrote:On March 10 2015 03:15 Plansix wrote:On March 10 2015 03:07 WhiteDog wrote:On March 10 2015 03:06 levelping wrote:On March 10 2015 03:03 WhiteDog wrote:On March 10 2015 03:00 Plansix wrote:On March 10 2015 02:53 WhiteDog wrote:
[quote]
You're a kid really if you believe hitting on a girl, even in such a clumsy manner as on the internet, is a "bad" behavior. Do you think all girls are weak little virgins that needs protection ? Sex is part of life, and men trying to find partners is absolutly normal.
Never used voice communicator with strangers in games, didn't prevent me from achieving a good enough level. Its not bad behavior if you don't throw a fit if you get rejected in a most amazing manner. But unwanted sexual attention and the negative blow back that comes from rejecting said attention is something women deal with. http://www.theonion.com/articles/courageous-man-overcomes-womans-body-language-to-c,38152/This Onion article pretty much sums up the issue that women face with unwanted sexual attention. The article does not respond to my point at all. It's harassment, not hitting on a girl. And seriously, first world problem. You part of those people that believe unattractive men should not hit on girls ? I think that article is pretty clearly just saying that unwanted attention from clueless guys is annoying and is something that girls have to put up with. Her "body language" is saying no it must mean he already made his move right ? Pretty much yes. You can pretty much tell if a girl doesn't want your attention in the first 5 minutes of talking with her. Maybe even less if you are just introducing yourself for the first time. Also, by making this advance, you are putting the woman an awkward situation. She doesn't want to be a jerk, but wants to be clear she isn't interested. The burden is on her to be both very clear and not to hurt the guys feelings. And when the person is socially awkward or just an idiot, its makes it even harder. Its why most of the single women I know have fake wedding/engagement rings for when they go out. You have fully interiorized the hypocrisy of sexual relations. Congratulation. What the fuck does that even mean? The only hypocrisy I see in sexual relations is that some dudes feel that hitting on a girl is totally ok because she should be excited that she is attractive enough to get his attention. And women wants attention, but from men they feel attracted to and in places they want to. The two not wanting to show their underlying motive, which is reproduction - pleasant event right ? Love, it's beautiful. She doesn't want the attention. She wants to go out, be on a stream or play a game. Hate to break it to you, when girls get dressed up to go out, they don't do it to attract a guy. Thats the problem, you assume they want the attention, which they do not.
So you actually believe women don't want attention from men ? At least straigth women ?
And women don't like sex right ? It's gross and religion said it's bad.
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On March 10 2015 03:35 WhiteDog wrote:Show nested quote +On March 10 2015 03:34 Plansix wrote:On March 10 2015 03:30 WhiteDog wrote:On March 10 2015 03:26 Plansix wrote:On March 10 2015 03:18 WhiteDog wrote:On March 10 2015 03:15 Plansix wrote:On March 10 2015 03:07 WhiteDog wrote:On March 10 2015 03:06 levelping wrote:On March 10 2015 03:03 WhiteDog wrote:On March 10 2015 03:00 Plansix wrote:[quote] Its not bad behavior if you don't throw a fit if you get rejected in a most amazing manner. But unwanted sexual attention and the negative blow back that comes from rejecting said attention is something women deal with. http://www.theonion.com/articles/courageous-man-overcomes-womans-body-language-to-c,38152/This Onion article pretty much sums up the issue that women face with unwanted sexual attention. The article does not respond to my point at all. It's harassment, not hitting on a girl. And seriously, first world problem. You part of those people that believe unattractive men should not hit on girls ? I think that article is pretty clearly just saying that unwanted attention from clueless guys is annoying and is something that girls have to put up with. Her "body language" is saying no it must mean he already made his move right ? Pretty much yes. You can pretty much tell if a girl doesn't want your attention in the first 5 minutes of talking with her. Maybe even less if you are just introducing yourself for the first time. Also, by making this advance, you are putting the woman an awkward situation. She doesn't want to be a jerk, but wants to be clear she isn't interested. The burden is on her to be both very clear and not to hurt the guys feelings. And when the person is socially awkward or just an idiot, its makes it even harder. Its why most of the single women I know have fake wedding/engagement rings for when they go out. You have fully interiorized the hypocrisy of sexual relations. Congratulation. What the fuck does that even mean? The only hypocrisy I see in sexual relations is that some dudes feel that hitting on a girl is totally ok because she should be excited that she is attractive enough to get his attention. And women wants attention, but from men they feel attracted to and in places they want to. The two not wanting to show their underlying motive, which is reproduction - pleasant event right ? Love, it's beautiful. She doesn't want the attention. She wants to go out, be on a stream or play a game. Hate to break it to you, when girls get dressed up to go out, they don't do it to attract a guy. Thats the problem, you assume they want the attention, which they do not. So you actually believe women don't want attention from men ? At least straigth women ? And women don't like sex right ? It's gross and religion said it's bad.
Not all the time. Most of the time, no. Just like I don't want attention from women all the time, especially ones I have no interest in dating. And since I am not single, thats like all women. My fiancee and I went to pax this weekend and we both were very well dressed for both days. It was not to get attention from men or women, or each other.
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On March 10 2015 03:39 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On March 10 2015 03:35 WhiteDog wrote:On March 10 2015 03:34 Plansix wrote:On March 10 2015 03:30 WhiteDog wrote:On March 10 2015 03:26 Plansix wrote:On March 10 2015 03:18 WhiteDog wrote:On March 10 2015 03:15 Plansix wrote:On March 10 2015 03:07 WhiteDog wrote:On March 10 2015 03:06 levelping wrote:On March 10 2015 03:03 WhiteDog wrote:
[quote]
The article does not respond to my point at all. It's harassment, not hitting on a girl.
And seriously, first world problem. You part of those people that believe unattractive men should not hit on girls ? I think that article is pretty clearly just saying that unwanted attention from clueless guys is annoying and is something that girls have to put up with. Her "body language" is saying no it must mean he already made his move right ? Pretty much yes. You can pretty much tell if a girl doesn't want your attention in the first 5 minutes of talking with her. Maybe even less if you are just introducing yourself for the first time. Also, by making this advance, you are putting the woman an awkward situation. She doesn't want to be a jerk, but wants to be clear she isn't interested. The burden is on her to be both very clear and not to hurt the guys feelings. And when the person is socially awkward or just an idiot, its makes it even harder. Its why most of the single women I know have fake wedding/engagement rings for when they go out. You have fully interiorized the hypocrisy of sexual relations. Congratulation. What the fuck does that even mean? The only hypocrisy I see in sexual relations is that some dudes feel that hitting on a girl is totally ok because she should be excited that she is attractive enough to get his attention. And women wants attention, but from men they feel attracted to and in places they want to. The two not wanting to show their underlying motive, which is reproduction - pleasant event right ? Love, it's beautiful. She doesn't want the attention. She wants to go out, be on a stream or play a game. Hate to break it to you, when girls get dressed up to go out, they don't do it to attract a guy. Thats the problem, you assume they want the attention, which they do not. So you actually believe women don't want attention from men ? At least straigth women ? And women don't like sex right ? It's gross and religion said it's bad. Not all the time. Most of the time, no. Just like I don't want attention from women all the time, especially ones I have no interest in dating. And since I am not single, thats like all women. My fiancee and I went to pax this weekend and we both were very well dressed for both days. It was not to get attention from men or women, or each other.
Of course most of the time women don't want, do not have the time, or are already engaged. But how does a man can know that ? How is it that just hitting on a girl is bad in itself ? Because that is what we are discussing here.
I'm with a girl since 9 years, and didn't hit on a girl since I started going out with her. Just saying I don't run at women to tear their clothes and fanatically ask them to have sexual intercourse. Altho I'm mature enough to know sex is part of life and hitting on a girl is perfectly normal. Just accept when you've been rejected.
Now explain why young kids who feel emotive when hearing a girl in a video game, are an expression of the problems of the "gaming culture" ?
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It's amazing how these types of threads devolve into such shittery.
Really my take away from this is that maybe it's not a bad thing to remind the population of gamers as well as complete non-gamers that these problems exist. Not that us gamers need to be reminded (we experience it every day) but it starts a discussion about a hot topic. It's sad that these conversations never stay focused and when barely relatable comparisons come out it steers discussion away from the topic on hand for at least half of a page of posts.
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On March 10 2015 03:09 Stratos_speAr wrote:
The entire issue here is the response of the (white male) gaming community, and it mirrors the response of that same group in discussions of race/gender/religion.
Essentially, white males feel like they are being made out to be bad guys while minorities get particular attention due to widespread sexism/racism/etc. They respond by downplaying the sexism/racism/etc., and therefore look even more sexist/racist/etc.
The reality is that gaming is just another "good old boys club" of white males and we refuse to admit it. It is almost exclusively our culture and yet we demand that others accept the rampant sexism and racism in gaming culture. It's childish and selfish.
Not only this, but it displays a remarkable level of ignorance or arrogance to 1) claim that men are harassed just as much online and 2) that threatening to rape someone or calling someone the N word means the exact same thing regardless of the recipient. this is the kind of thing a normal person learns at a young age; calling a straight man a faggot is not as insulting as calling a gay man a faggot. Calling a white man the N word is not the same as calling a black man the N word. Threatening to rape a man is not the same as threatening to rape a woman. These all mean nothing to a white man and they can "just ignore it" because it isn't a fundamental part of their identity or experiences, whereas it is for the other groups I mentioned.
There are very few people (and almost none in mainstream discourse) that claim that all gamers are sexist. If that is what you think this is, it is a YOU problem. You are not "defending stereotyped gamers" or whatever. You are tacitly and subconsciously defending a sexist gaming culture that doesn't want to change. "Intent" is a lazy excuse. Sexism is sexism and racism is racism. It doesn't matter if it's because the perpetrator is an ass or because he actually believes those things.
White men don't understand thsee things because when we look in the mirror, we simply see "insert name here". What we don't understand is that when a woman looks in the mirror, she is FORCED to understand her identity partly based on her gender due to the discrimination she faces. When a black man looks in the mirror he is FORCED to be conscious of his blackness due to racism. When a gay man looks into the mirror, he is FORCED to define himself as gay due to rampant homophobia. If you do not understand this, then you are part of the problem.
If you are a white male gamer, then instead of defending yourself against non-existent attacks, just go home and APPRECIATE YOUR PRIVILEGE, say, "I am against sexism in gaming", and shut up. YOU ARE NOT THE VICTIM OF ANYTHING. The enemy in these discussions is racism/sexism/etc., and if you think that you are a victim and need to defend something because of this, then you are probably more bigoted than you realize, because all you're doing is defending discrimination in gaming culture.
The problem with trying to frame online harassment in this way is the people who disagree with all or part of your narrative are not exclusively "white men."
On March 10 2015 03:09 Stratos_speAr wrote:
Threatening to rape a man is not the same as threatening to rape a woman. These all mean nothing to a white man and they can "just ignore it" because it isn't a fundamental part of their identity or experiences, whereas it is for the other groups I mentioned.
Rape is serious and terrible no matter who it happens to, and it also strikes me as hyperbolic to suggest it's a fundamental part of a woman's identity? Did I read this wrong?
On March 10 2015 03:09 Stratos_speAr wrote:
White men don't understand thsee things because when we look in the mirror, we simply see "insert name here". What we don't understand is that when a woman looks in the mirror, she is FORCED to understand her identity partly based on her gender due to the discrimination she faces. When a black man looks in the mirror he is FORCED to be conscious of his blackness due to racism. When a gay man looks into the mirror, he is FORCED to define himself as gay due to rampant homophobia. If you do not understand this, then you are part of the problem.
I think this is plainly backwards, a person's identity will subject them to discrimination from some people and acceptance from others. Discrimination is a function of your identity, it's not where your identity comes from.
Why is it so impossible for "white men" to understand the plight of anyone else? White men are sociopaths and can't experience empathy? They are never the subject of harassment and so they can't relate to someone else?
If you try to exclude people's opinions based on a superficial trait, doesn't that work both ways? Doesn't that work against solidarity and a real conversation? Suppose you grant that it's impossible for you to ever understand what it's like to be a woman and the problems a woman faces. How do you know her experience is better or worse than anyone else's experience? Because she said so? But it's also impossible for her to understand what it's like to be you, right? You only have the experience of you and she only has the experience of her. There's nobody who has 2 reference points to actually compare, right?
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On March 10 2015 03:42 WhiteDog wrote:Show nested quote +On March 10 2015 03:39 Plansix wrote:On March 10 2015 03:35 WhiteDog wrote:On March 10 2015 03:34 Plansix wrote:On March 10 2015 03:30 WhiteDog wrote:On March 10 2015 03:26 Plansix wrote:On March 10 2015 03:18 WhiteDog wrote:On March 10 2015 03:15 Plansix wrote:On March 10 2015 03:07 WhiteDog wrote:On March 10 2015 03:06 levelping wrote:
[quote]
I think that article is pretty clearly just saying that unwanted attention from clueless guys is annoying and is something that girls have to put up with. Her "body language" is saying no it must mean he already made his move right ? Pretty much yes. You can pretty much tell if a girl doesn't want your attention in the first 5 minutes of talking with her. Maybe even less if you are just introducing yourself for the first time. Also, by making this advance, you are putting the woman an awkward situation. She doesn't want to be a jerk, but wants to be clear she isn't interested. The burden is on her to be both very clear and not to hurt the guys feelings. And when the person is socially awkward or just an idiot, its makes it even harder. Its why most of the single women I know have fake wedding/engagement rings for when they go out. You have fully interiorized the hypocrisy of sexual relations. Congratulation. What the fuck does that even mean? The only hypocrisy I see in sexual relations is that some dudes feel that hitting on a girl is totally ok because she should be excited that she is attractive enough to get his attention. And women wants attention, but from men they feel attracted to and in places they want to. The two not wanting to show their underlying motive, which is reproduction - pleasant event right ? Love, it's beautiful. She doesn't want the attention. She wants to go out, be on a stream or play a game. Hate to break it to you, when girls get dressed up to go out, they don't do it to attract a guy. Thats the problem, you assume they want the attention, which they do not. So you actually believe women don't want attention from men ? At least straigth women ? And women don't like sex right ? It's gross and religion said it's bad. Not all the time. Most of the time, no. Just like I don't want attention from women all the time, especially ones I have no interest in dating. And since I am not single, thats like all women. My fiancee and I went to pax this weekend and we both were very well dressed for both days. It was not to get attention from men or women, or each other. Of course most of the time women don't want, do not have the time, or are already engaged. But how does a man can know that ? How is it that just hitting on a girl is bad in itself ? Because that is what we are discussing here. I'm with a girl with 9 years, and didn't hit on a girl since I started going out with her. Just saying I don't run at women to tear their clothes and fanatically ask them to have sexual intercourse. Altho I'm mature enough to know sex is part of life and hitting on a girl is perfectly normal. Just accept when you've been rejected.
He knows that by not being a clueless idiot and learning to take a hint. Its normally pretty clear when a girl wants your attention or to be flirted with. Rather than "hitting on girls", I normally just tried talking to them.
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Whereas harassment of girls in gaming may as well exist and be a problem, it's probably blown out of proportion. It's just that it's possible to get page-views and views on YouTube while simultaneously fueling this silly fire.
More than half of what is said on the internet is probably an insult of one form or the other. If you look at Day9's VODs, in the youtube comments, you'll find people insulting him; Apollo got trashed in the youtube comments for his "super duper" cast of forgg versus sen. Look at the sc2 ladder. Look at LoL. Look at just anything.
+ Show Spoiler +https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jiTXnKEyecg
read the comments
My point is that you're going to be insulted on the internet, regardless of what happens. My second point is that generally people will use any means to get their insult through. When it's about women, well trolls will use the fact that they're women as a focal point for their insults. That's not a good thing, but what can I say, welcome to the internet.
Everyone is getting shit on for one reason or the other, the fact is that for some reason feminists have decided that it's time to wave their flag above everyone else's. All this does is generate MORE trolling, this is also factual.
You can complain about it, I guess, but I'm not really sure that that will solve anything. The best course of action would probably be to not give such harassment as much publicity as it's getting, while striking down on those who actually guilty of doing it. e.g. on TL, you can try it out, but you'll get banned. Other sites give their user's free reign to say whatever bullshit they want. That bullshit fuels a fire of feminism, and then feminists make sure to keep that fuel coming by making a big deal out of it.
In the mean time, it's sites like kotaku or even the nytimes (and the journalists who write for them) who are getting revenue from all of this. The same thing could be said about racism and homophobia, but eh, let's not go there. I believe that this sort of hate, while it isn't caused by media, is certainly being exploited by it. Kind of tasteless
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On March 10 2015 03:16 Zambrah wrote:But what do female gamers do about it now? Again, I'm not saying we just shouldn't have discussions about the way females are being treated in games, its pretty heinous, what I'm saying is that those discussions aren't changing things immediately and what other options do we have to make gaming more pleasant for female gamers in the present rather than the future, than for them to 1. adopt thicker skins, 2. stay out of vitriolic cesspools. It just seems to me that people refuse to accept that sometimes you have take some personal action, the world can't immediately change around you, sometimes you have to do this sort of thing. Which, again, sucks. But what are the real alternatives? <snip> it confuses me that people would refuse to take certain measures to have a more pleasant gaming experience out of some idealist principle.
Ok, I'm going to give you the opportunity to think of a few historical parallels to this before I point them out to you.
How the hell is trying to shine a spotlight on the shittiness of gaming culture, often at the cost of considerable personal anguish, not taking personal action?
Should girls dress like men to reduce the chances of being raped?
The way to fix this problem is to increase how visible it is, not hide it under the carpet. What we need is more people speaking out, of both genders. That's how girls start feeling welcome and valued. We don't need people telling girls to hide who they are to avoid incurring the wrath of the boys who were, after all, there first...
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On March 10 2015 03:47 Incognoto wrote:Whereas harassment of girls in gaming may as well exist and be a problem, it's probably blown out of proportion. It's just that it's possible to get page-views and views on YouTube while simultaneously fueling this silly fire. More than half of what is said on the internet is probably an insult of one form or the other. If you look at Day9's VODs, in the youtube comments, you'll find people insulting him; Apollo got trashed in the youtube comments for his "super duper" cast of forgg versus sen. Look at the sc2 ladder. Look at LoL. Look at just anything. + Show Spoiler +https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jiTXnKEyecg
read the comments My point is that you're going to be insulted on the internet, regardless of what happens. My second point is that generally people will use any means to get their insult through. When it's about women, well trolls will use the fact that they're women as a focal point for their insults. That's not a good thing, but what can I say, welcome to the internet. Everyone is getting shit on for one reason or the other, the fact is that for some reason feminists have decided that it's time to wave their flag above everyone else's. All this does is generate MORE trolling, this is also factual. You can complain about it, I guess, but I'm not really sure that that will solve anything. The best course of action would probably be to not give such harassment as much publicity as it's getting, while striking down on those who actually guilty of doing it. e.g. on TL, you can try it out, but you'll get banned. Other sites give their user's free reign to say whatever bullshit they want. That bullshit fuels a fire of feminism, and then feminists make sure to keep that fuel coming by making a big deal out of it. In the mean time, it's sites like kotaku or even the nytimes (and the journalists who write for them) who are getting revenue from all of this. The same thing could be said about racism and homophobia, but eh, let's not go there. I believe that this sort of hate, while it isn't caused by media, is certainly being exploited by it. Kind of tasteless
I don't get it. Everyone gets shit, so we shouldn't pay attention to the feminists because they are being loud about the shit they are getting? Why not solve the women related harassment and then work on other areas from there? Like really why must we all resign to forever be in shit city? Like if the women want to take the lead to get us out of this shit pile then by all means.
And I am sure "not giving such harassment as much publicity" is probably something someone said at some point during the women's rights, civil rights, and the LGBT movements. Thank god no one listened to that guy.
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On March 10 2015 03:30 WhiteDog wrote:Show nested quote +On March 10 2015 03:26 Plansix wrote:On March 10 2015 03:18 WhiteDog wrote:On March 10 2015 03:15 Plansix wrote:On March 10 2015 03:07 WhiteDog wrote:On March 10 2015 03:06 levelping wrote:On March 10 2015 03:03 WhiteDog wrote:On March 10 2015 03:00 Plansix wrote:On March 10 2015 02:53 WhiteDog wrote:On March 10 2015 02:47 ZasZ. wrote:
[quote]
Well gender is not really like any of those other things, especially if the game uses voice communication. If a female wants to play any MMO, LoL, or Dota at a semi-serious level, she will be on voice communication sooner rather than later and will not have a choice about revealing her gender. As for those other character traits, yeah I would find it a little strange if someone loaded up a game of Dota and declared to both teams "I am a black, agnostic, gay libertarian," but no one should be hostile if they did choose to say that. Most would probably assume they are a troll. But a woman reveals herself as female just by opening her mouth and participating in the game as it was meant to be played. Having to refuse to use voice chat or pretend to be male in order to enjoy the game doesn't really seem equitable does it?
And "just as bad," is probably the wrong choice of words, it's just bad in a different way. Obviously it doesn't get much worse than death or rape threats. But the awkward neck-beards who pipe up with "omg a girl" as soon as she opens her mouth are contributing to the same bad environment where everyone but him is uncomfortable. How about we just treat her like another teammate rather than an elusive pokemon. You're a kid really if you believe hitting on a girl, even in such a clumsy manner as on the internet, is a "bad" behavior. Do you think all girls are weak little virgins that needs protection ? Sex is part of life, and men trying to find partners is absolutly normal. Never used voice communicator with strangers in games, didn't prevent me from achieving a good enough level. Its not bad behavior if you don't throw a fit if you get rejected in a most amazing manner. But unwanted sexual attention and the negative blow back that comes from rejecting said attention is something women deal with. http://www.theonion.com/articles/courageous-man-overcomes-womans-body-language-to-c,38152/This Onion article pretty much sums up the issue that women face with unwanted sexual attention. The article does not respond to my point at all. It's harassment, not hitting on a girl. And seriously, first world problem. You part of those people that believe unattractive men should not hit on girls ? I think that article is pretty clearly just saying that unwanted attention from clueless guys is annoying and is something that girls have to put up with. Her "body language" is saying no it must mean he already made his move right ? Pretty much yes. You can pretty much tell if a girl doesn't want your attention in the first 5 minutes of talking with her. Maybe even less if you are just introducing yourself for the first time. Also, by making this advance, you are putting the woman an awkward situation. She doesn't want to be a jerk, but wants to be clear she isn't interested. The burden is on her to be both very clear and not to hurt the guys feelings. And when the person is socially awkward or just an idiot, its makes it even harder. Its why most of the single women I know have fake wedding/engagement rings for when they go out. You have fully interiorized the hypocrisy of sexual relations. Congratulation. What the fuck does that even mean? The only hypocrisy I see in sexual relations is that some dudes feel that hitting on a girl is totally ok because she should be excited that she is attractive enough to get his attention. And women wants attention, but from men they feel attracted to and in places they want to. The two not wanting to show their underlying motive, which is reproduction - pleasant event right ? Love, it's beautiful. Like really why are we discussing that ? Do I care ? Did you read ? Zasz was saying just hitting on a girl is a bad behavior - "different from rape insult" but not less problematic (that's his exact comment). If you believe that is true - that hitting on a girl in wow is as problematic as insulting a girl - then fine. Aside from that, I never said that hitting on a girl and still going at it after she clearly said no, is not a problematic. But seduction even in video games, even coming from kids that are clumsy and can't understand how it's done, is not a "problem of the gaming culture", it's normal sexual relations. That's our biological nature.
I corrected my statement to reflect that unwanted positive attention is a different symptom of the same problem, but it is obviously not as harmful or destructive as rape threats.
But your first paragraph there still puzzles me. Why are you assuming that all women have the underlying motive of reproduction in mind when they play video games? I don't know about you, but I like to compartmentalize certain aspects of my life. To use your analogy from earlier, a woman who goes to a nightclub and doesn't expect to get attention from men is probably kidding herself. Many people consider that to be what nightclubs are for. It doesn't mean that women can't go just to dance with their friends or whatever, but I don't think any of them would be surprised to get attention from men in the process.
However, is the same behavior as normal if it was a group of women at a museum? If "museums" were a male-dominated culture, and by going to a museum a woman could expect to be harassed by every third guy she passed by during the tour, how many women do you think would be interested in going to more museums? Unless she enjoyed that type and amount of attention, probably not no. She would think it was weird that all these dudes thought the museum was a perfect place to make sexual advances, and find something more fun to do.
And keep in mind that I'm sure a lot of successful couples met in a museum. For the most part individuals aren't the problem. Females have gotten very good at rejected unwanted attention over the years. But when you are constantly bombarded with unwanted attention in a particular place you visit, it kind of makes you not want to visit that place anymore. It's the same sentiment that causes prominent YouTubers to disable their comment sections and for celebrities to have PR people handle their Twitter accounts.
EDIT: And maybe that's the breakdown in communication here, WhiteDog. If it were one guy, here or there, taking a shot and being rejected, it might not be so bad. But even fielding and deflecting the attention takes energy, and why should someone have to bother with that if they just want to play video games? I would find it more than a little distracting if a not-insignificant number of the random males I meet online try to solicit sex from me, because I'm not interested and I'm playing dota, not browsing a dating site.
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To be fair, it does seem like a lot of people, especially on Team Liquid, are happy and pumped to see women invest themselves in starcraft.
Look at how much respect the girls like Anna, Rachel, Smix, Sojung, etc and so on have gotten for their work? If you go into Livibee's chat or Aphrodite's chat, you'll see mostly positive content.
I am very happy to have girls in esports. I'm pretty sure that most are like me.
+ Show Spoiler +http://i.imgur.com/VMinw7J.gif
I think travis hit the nail on the head with his first post.
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